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"I don't care where the good idea comes from" is often a smoke screen for "I'm going to find some external rationalization to get what I want without getting blamed"
I think it's a bit more nuanced than that, but I get where you're coming from. It sounds like you're talking about the cases where I have a thought process like this: "I really want to do X thing, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable dying on my sword for it a.k.a. getting criticized for my decision. I'm needing reassurance from others about what I want before I go for it. I'll go find other people's advice/opinions that support what I want to do. That way I can blame others and/or scratch that from my mental record if/when things go sideways." I think the "I don't care where the good idea comes from" is actually very useful in cases where you're actually trying to solve a problem and/or looking for a how-to. Speaking from a Blast-Play Te perspective: If something solves my problem and it comes from some rando blogger from a post 10 years ago and not some PhD's TED talk then I'll take it. I'll try whatever. I'm looking for the best solution for my specific problem not the highest quality opinion. Sometimes they're the same. Sometimes not. And this is probably my Ni/Te talking here, but I like checking the Tribe's experiences (read: search Google) on something I'm thinking about doing to find out the pitfalls, gotchas, and the end-game. I study failures. Then I decide if I can live with those possible failures. It's like one of my favorite Charlie Munger quotes: "All I want to know is where I'm going to die so I won't go there."
This is Ni/Ne. Ni is responsible for executing ideas. They will take any idea and put it to the test. And if it works, it works. And they replace it when new, better idea comes. Ne ranks their ideas. And they hold onto them. And try to find external rationalization for them. This is how introverted vs extroverted functions work. Introverted test ideas. Try to find best one. Do not hold onto them. Extroverted collect, rank them and then advocate for their favorite. Like Si don't really care about how their environment look/feel like, as long as it is not overly uncomfortable. Because they prefer company, that the environment they create brings them. Fi don't care about what social rules they have to follow, as long as everybody can live their life as they please. Because it is responsibility of Fi to enforce the peace among Fe fractions. Ti is somehow responsible to give other people things to do. Because Te people get annoyed/bored and cause trouble/leave when they don't have that
Big one for me. I have a hard time "being myself" because I'm always portraying a character to suit whatever situation I'm in, and that makes me really uncomfortable. Getting better though, a lot of it is about confidence 🤷🏼♂️
As a Di leading with a De boyfriend, I've just stopped arguing about what he should do when the choice is very obvious. I just say figure it out on your own you be you I'm leaving otherwise I'll get angry (or I'm already in the process of being mad lol). Somehow the minute I'm giving up he suddenly settles his choice calmly and confidently after lashing out for 20 minutes. THE AUDACITY.
Shmubuglu oh boy. I have this same issue with my mom. She’s an ExTJ and I’m IxTP, it gets so so painful to have to check off with her on every decision she makes. Like just yesterday we were discussing if the pants she picked out were “good” or not, and it turned into a 30 minute discussion. And even THEN she still wasn’t sure about buying them, and asked someone else in the store what they thought 🤦🏻♀️
Di and De are important part of any relationship. The Di part plays into the specific role within the relationship like being the person that fixes the broken appliances and telling stories to your friends on what happen over the weekend, or being the person that gives advice and helps other people in the tribe with emotional problems because we need to accept that sometimes that their Di has more ability/value then the other person because of insert X,Y and Z and thus entitled to certain amount of authority and respect in that relationship. When a person insist on doing these things on their own with their masculine Di, even if they are bad at it, it's because they are seeking the authority within the relationship that they feel that they are currently lacking in, which can clash with the person who have a masculine De attitude towards those same things because they have expectations that they are suppose to work, although not noticing they're pretty much leading the project by the nose, on those problems together are probably wondering why their partner don't trust them with it. The De part however is still really important because if you don't see each other are equals then how are you suppose to be work together on certain problems or be open on talking on your values/sharing experiences? No matter how inept it can make you feel, you should work together.
@@TheNicMMc Oh yeah no worries I use De to work with common projects with people, find common ground and make compromises. I don't care if my bf repares appliances, I'd give my money to someone who really know what they're doing (they might teach me along the way if I'm interested or if it's a reccurent problem ha). I don't see De as a bad thing on its own, but lead De who don't check on their Di and pretend everything is ok are a trainwreck and heavy to manage for everybody else 😌 I'm not responsible for you identity go journal, find a therapist, whatever works 😌
@@Shmubuglu I agree with that completely and people in general will have always their idea on what responsibility they should share together and being equals versus having responsibility do it for self and maybe expecting to have the sole authority in certain situations. It's really hard to articulate it because I can be so use to being with someone who thinks and feel like I do to a point that I will never have to really verbally communicate it; you know?
This was super interesting to me. One thing I've noticed about quite a few (though not all) ETJs I've known is that I often sense a lack of individuality about them. As in the ones I've known rarely ever surprised me with their opinions, interests, preferences, career choices, etc. I had a good ENTJ friend years ago who even admitted that himself. I also used to have a boss who would always say things like, "Well now I can use X as an excuse to do Y" and I'd be like, "Why do you need an excuse to do anything?" Do whatever you want.
WOAH! This is crazy to me! I’m an ENFP, but whenever I go under extreme stress and lose sight of my values, THAT IS WHAT I DO!! I start arguing with people I trust to find out where I stand. I say, “Should I do this?!” and then start posing different opinions and views and making them have a heated discussion with me about it. I almost want them to convince me I’m wrong or to show me a new way of thinking, but usually they don’t know that and just wonder why I’m fighting with them about it. Would that be an example of a shadow function? Idk, but it happens. The sad part is that all that doesn’t usually help me much, anyway. I do that thinking it’ll fix things when really all it does is confuse me more. Then, when the initial stress fades away and I get more in tune with my Fi, I can talk to people in a more straightforward way and organize my values internally with ease.
That is Te. I do it the same. When I have some opinion/decision, I seek arguments. I want people to disagree with me, so I can find all the ways, that other people can oppose me. Based on this feedback, I change this opinion/decision to make it more argument-friendly. It does not matter, if other people like it. It matters, if I can defend my decision. Because nobody gets free pass on their Fi/Ti. It has to be defendable(Te) or be liked by other people(Fe).
@@sophiaredwood5825 If you are ENFP, then when stressed, you are probably in your Si. You are trying to run through your Ne ideas that you gathered, and then argue with tribe to help you decide on which ones can be reduced. So that the number of possibilities is final, and then you can make decision on those. To give simple example: if you want to eat something, you can: 1, cook something, 2, get something delivered, 3, go eat out. All possibilities were reduced to 3. This is Ni-Se way, because that is how I think, but Si-Ne might be similar, if not the same. Difference is probably only in a way, that we arrive to the conclusion.
I wrote all this when I’d just found out about OP, and now rereading this as a self-typed MM Ne/Fi CS/P(B), yep, I was definitely describing my demon masculine Te that comes out when my feminine Fi shrivels under the pressure. I’m really good at using my Fi to make decisions and determine my set of morals, but when my Fi is being challenged by the tribe or when something happens to make me doubt my Fi entirely, I go back to people I trust and hit them with my demon Te until I feel secure again.
I think I am Di, but often don't voice it because it goes against the grain. It's like trying to swim upstream and I have low energy and hate conflict. So I just smile and nod my head and pretend to go along and then just do my own thing. Going with the stream feels awkward when you don't believe in it.
Dude, the bike is both fantastic and I worry about him losing concentration on the road The all opinions are equal thing is something I'm prone to... Thanks for pointing that out.
Oh my. Guilty on all charges! Great video! I'm in huge need of my Di at the moment. But just like you're saying, I haven't found it, so I've "abused the tribe" instead. For weeks! xD Thanks for reminding me it feels amazing to find the Di! - ExxJ
Dave's more powerful than we thought. I find it so ironic yet funny that I have to make myself seem like an idiot about the honest things to make people laugh and think about the depth about the most obvious things they think people. It's like we're almost "engineered" to realize that we have to act the asshole to fool people into thinking the obvious things are so relatable because they're "not typically discerned" so you take memes "out of context" so they actually try to spite you into thinking and working those brain muscles to prove you wrong when they realize they've quite mentally "fallen" for the trick, so you take advantage of that lack of discerning on the ambiguity on the get-go. Aka: big brained and knowing memes stops people from being dumb and stopping "ignorance from breeding fear" by using the inherent flaws in logic to make em work those brain muscles. Curiosity is so fascinating.
As an INTJ I do that... I will not be able to easily know how I feel about something consciously, so I tell it to my isfp friend and make him repeat it back to me lol. He'd be like "you just said it makes you feel like..." lol then when I hear it from him I'm like oh yeah, that's totally how I feel! 😆
I’m gonna be brutal here. I get irritated by Te mascs banging the tribe over the head with blocks. Think about it for yourself for a second before you open your mouth and stupid falls out.
As an ENFJ, I find it easier to take an unpopular stand against the tribe when I am defending someone else. Also, if it is a moral issue, I have a much easier time accepting that I am in the minority. But what’s the point of arguing? Only a fool argues with a fool.
Glad Dave mentioned that. SB/P(C) and CP/B(S) are horrible about abusing the tribe for self validation and not realizing it because it's technically a demon But then how do you accept that that is "you" and that you're allowed to do it? Is it really just a matter of accepting yourself and being responsible?
I'm lead Ti but I can semi-relate to Dave's point about consume last, except for me it's not about what I like. If I get some new piece of information that doesn't fit well into my understanding of something or another then I have a hard time assessing whether it makes sense without running it through one of the other animals somehow, either through some kind of problem-solving or trying to rely on someone else's understanding as a substitute for actually putting in the work myself to figure out the stuff I don't know. That last one has gotten me in trouble before and I've sort of tried to correct for it, but it's easier to see now knowing it's a laziness in ST consume.
Same for me. It can especially awful when I'm sitting through a lecture. I just hate learning new information through audio and I'm not allow to go over my notes.
"actually everyone's opinion doesn't matter...." (and dave---in the background---"equally.") I think NE would say that everyone's opinion does matter. Depends on what. What are you trying to find? And... Just bc some ceo has their phd doesn't necessarily make them smarter or better at analysis than a janitor. So many CEOs have run companies into the ground. And I realize you're using a business metaphor, but maybe that's part of the problem. Your fi doesn't need a CEO. That's not the place to find your conscience. Comments like these are what makes me bristle. I don't know if this is an entj thing... (No offense.) But insert mega eye roll here. All perspectives are part of the puzzle. (enfp)
Unless I’m lacking self-awareness in this, I really don’t care if you’re the ceo or a janitor. Either could have the better idea. Granted, being a ceo or PhD doesn’t mean nothing, but it’s also pretty far from meaning everything, and the janitor could’ve picked up wisdom from many other places. Plus, even idiots can stumble upon profound truths, even without realizing it themselves. So, I’m always for listening and evaluating. Except-I’ll be honest-when one’s proven themselves to be completely illogical one too many times, it does become difficult to take them seriously. So, yeah, for me, initially all opinions are equal, I guess, until I decide I generally despise your opinions, then they’re taken with a grain of salt. Ultimately, I run everything through my Ti. With Fe, it’s different. I’m constantly responding and playing off others, checking what boundaries are okay, etc. I do know what I like (Fi) as far as say a shirt goes, though. I don’t care to ping it off the tribe, because it’s a decision of such minor value. Similarly, while I often know if I do or do not like this or that song, I don’t care if you like it. Unlike lead Fi, I don’t even really care if I like it.
Interesting. I really agree with you on those first two paragraphs. I'm the exact same. I'm an INFJ. Double feminine, Blast Sleep/Consume, I believe. What's your type (if you know)?
Jeffrey Sherman INFJ most likely the same animals and order although I haven’t looked into that enough yet. My Fe is definitely feminine. How do you distinguish between f and m Ni? Sorry, I’d look it up, but I’m just about to work out. I’ll look into it later if you haven’t responded yet. :) I know you didn’t ask, but both my Se and Si would definitely be feminine. My memory has always been atrocious, especially when it comes to details, the physical, and time. Oh, except quotes, but I live for a good quote. :) It’s cool that we’re similar. Thanks for connecting. :)
Jeffrey Sherman Hey, quick question... I’m curious if you watched when they were talking about Bernie Sanders. They typed him as an INTP. Just curious if your thoughts on this match mine at all... Any opinion there?
OMG...yes. People ask me...and do the opposite and it seems to want to use my Ti to figure themselves out. So odd. And these are “selfless” tribe above self people. I mostly do this work for myself. I’m “selfish.” Yet people wanna use me like a Di calculator. Seriously. I tired. 😂 That said. I abuse the tribe so much. Oof. HELP ME UNDERSTAND THE TRIBE. I lost. 😳 Helps. So glad we have people to help us not blindly run into a wall constantly.
being a consume last inferior fi as a child i’d ask my mom “this or that” and i would genuinely not know what i wanted then she’d answer and i’d be like eh i’ll ask someone else BECAUSE it wasn’t what i actually wanted
As it’s starts to become common knowledge that any needs/reasons/who the individual wants to be are valid and should be respected and understood (if you don’t, people will see you as an asshole and attack you for it) I’ve always known that but couldn’t use it for myself as a reason/justification because general attitude in my surroundings were more like everyone has to fit in the same mold. But now that the world is changing I could use that as justification if I want/do something for myself 😂 I don’t use it often because I still usually have more “better”/“acceptable” reasons than that and mostly I want to play safe and not risk getting in to debate with someone who still lives on the Middle Ages (not that I couldn’t do it but they probably wouldn’t understand anyway so why waste the time) but it’s bit calming to know/have that” tool” in my usage if I ever need it and it’s so much easier and faster to use than find other person who could be my potential “blaming sack” 😬 I’ve managed to do Di things more easily if it only affects me/my body (so piercings, clothes etc) without asking affirmation. But as soon as there are others involved it’s super hard to listen/do what Di wants if I can clearly see it will affect/“damage”/take something away from the tribe and if they don’t like it they could blame me for it. There was time (mainly at childhood) when I did things from Di that did affected others (sometimes super negatively). I just didn’t know or even think how it would affect others bc my Di need was stronger and that was the justification for me then. Like I want this so bad that I must have it no matter what. This changed when I heard the phrase “treat others the way you want them to treat you” and I realized that I wouldn’t want anyone to do that to me. I’m currently recovering from second burnout and it’s hard to see how useless I am but have no energy to do anything and also can’t seem to relax and charge batteries either… I know I’m allowed (and it would be helping/recommended/good for me etc) to rest and gather my strength back so I could heal but this “waiting” is torture.. Also I’m afraid that longer this takes I’ll start to make this even worse for myself on purpose so I can keep on doing nothing. Others understand this condition (+ other ones that I have) too well and not pressure me to do stuff so I kinda also enjoy this free time and same time I’m cursing myself to hell for being like this. (Ooh I just realized that I just also “blamed” others for not motivating me to be better when it should be my “responsibility” (or like that will/how/reason/motivation should come from me) first and not theirs 😂)
I'm confused. Leaving the tribe to find another tribe that agrees with you... i thought that was an indicator of a di. Now its the same as a de. So confused
Seems like a recursive process of looking back on yourself through others. Liking something isn't that cut and dry. Maybe you like it in the moment but you wouldn't enjoy standing out and that carries more weight in the decision. Maybe you like it at first glance but other people have thought through why it doesn't have the great value it appears to have. Etc. So people will look for other people's processing of the same choise to verify the choise. But it's not because of them, it's because of recursively looking at wether they have some new perspectives on the issue that is relevant to yourself.
For me, I know what I like and don't, I know my reasons most of the time, I've been typed INFP but up until now whenever I sensed I didn't fit or ppl didn't like me or accept me I would get sad. I've compromised and acted like someone else many times and hated myself for that. Also I let myself get swayed by other ppl's reasoning when I talked to them, even the stupid ones. Then when I'm on my own I'll be like "that guy was an uneducated prick. Why did I let his opinion affect me?". I'd discuss politics with taxi drivers and it would upset me so much I'd get shivers. Also I HATE people touching me, but I won't tell that to people and it goes to extreme. Once a guy I had just met at college touched my thigh (was wearing a skirt) and I didn't even say anything. I felt like shit but I second guessed myself like "am I supposed to feel bad? Maybe it was normal?". Over the kast months I've learned to defend my opinions, but shouldn't that be the defacto way for an INFP?
I think even if Di is your saviour it takes time to develop, so I wouldn't write it off. Part of De is feeling very out of touch with what your personal opinions are right, I don't think either is completely immune to societal pressures to be polite or as a woman not knowing how to forcefully say no to guys. I think being strongly aware of how your feelings and opinions, then hating to compromise or being very aware when you compromise is pretty representative of Di
@@hannahea9401 Yes, I am VERY aware of my opinions and feelings as I've spent a lot of time cultivating them but I have trouble expressing them and setting boundaries on others. Sometimes I just want to shout "NO! I don't want a fucking hug! Get your damn hands off me" and I know that it's impolite, but I guess I repress it so much it swings on the other way. I usually let things happen to me and then cry or get angry by myself. I suppose it's part of emotional development and I will get better as I age. And I must understand that it is not impolite to just stand by your reasons and values and it's not impolite to be disagreeable.
ENFP here. That WHOLE PARAGRAPH summed me up so well. Your encounter with a guy has even happened to me in a slightly different way and I concluded the exact same thing. I try to remind myself every day to be honest and true to myself. It’s a process I have to work through, but I’m learning and growing every day.
@@PragmaticOptimist I experience the same thing too, the disconnect between my inner world and how I am when I'm with other people. I think life experiences have a lot to do with it like were you allowed to be free and express yourself, you know. In the end, a difference I notice is a De person just wont let themselves acknowledge where they've let their Di down even when its glaringly obvious. I just find that impossible
@@PragmaticOptimist I'm also an infp, self-typed MF/CSBP. A while back I used to feel like this, and sometimes still do, but it's not as scary as before, because I learnt we assume a lot on dealing with tribe matters, truth be told, very rarely can you accurately know everyone's intentions all the time, and even most times, 9 out of 10 you are wrong, you might not know the extent to which you are wrong because you don't have people constantly disagreeing with you, and that may be because one doesn't put himself in such cases. so you have to put in mind that what you conceive May not be what is reality. Just like "Ne", "Te" is an extroverted function, it has to be used extrovertedly, so when you have a suggestion, throw it out there, if it gets a negative feedback, great!!, then there may be something you can learn, and if not whether it's true or not it would still have to pass the test of reality and principles beyond man's reach.On dealing with it, you have to be courageous. Hear what they have to say, and make judgements about the statements/information, not the individual. try not to be cynical. It's hard. Everyone as an individual has a right to their opinion and what is good for them. Also, when you have an opinion on something, and you are sure its correct, for everyone to understand it has to be in "Te" format/reasons for "infps", even in uncertainty, throw your opinion as a suggestion. There is nothing wrong in people not understanding your opinion, it happens for whatever reason, you might not be clear enough "Te", because for someone to be able to resonate on feeling with you, they have to have experienced exactly what you went through in the exact same details or similar to it, and that's not possible all the time.
De means extroverted decideur, it's either Fe(extroverted Feeling) or Te(extroverted Thinking). It's the same for Di, it represents the introverted decideurs, Fi and Ti. Basically, when you take a decision, you use one of these fonctions.
It is so weird. I have always been told that I'm Di. But I have only recently, over the last year, build my identity to a point where it's like... not absolutely broken. And let's be honest, I bother people to process my inner world all the time. I wouldn't write on here all the time otherwise.
@@PragmaticOptimist I think it has to do with me being very obviously different, no matter how much I try to fit in. So people, I guess, tend to think that I'm doing my own thing and don't care about others' opinions when I care a lot about them, but I fail to understand what people mean, or end up noticing after some time how they really don't work for me and that I need to do it differently.
They have a very Te oriented POV, yeah. It takes some mental gymnastics to apply it to Fe, but it's still true. The details may be a bit different, but the concept is the same
Oh shit.... this is what I do with my INTJ friend who just waits till I exhaust my Te and my Fi comes barreling through and then he goes there you go. Great! Ok F off go away all done. Haha
Interesting that I watched this video today when I sadenly realized that is the nature of my weak self-actualization (shadow Fi). I think I weaken my Fi by leting myself to judge and criticize other people opinions (Fe).
Soo, is it about how much do you need other people to like you? Because everyone is.going.to be wanted and liked, but is.it about how.much do you need.it? Di`s are also going to want to be liked.. In the comments people.saying they have changed a bit to be accepted at some point, INFPs do that also in comments and people.who.they can confide in.. It is not a matter of bringing your emotions out, it is about how.much do.you need others to accept it? I think.so..
I enjoy your videos for learning, but I have a few criticisms. You really need an XSFJ or an XNTP to argue these types out. I think your biggest blindspot are lead Si. You confuse their need for propriety and social order with tribe vs self issues and make them into deciders.
As a single observer, I think it's more important to avoid doing that. You don't want to lump people into information functions. Sure, social order and variety needs are playing out in the interaction, but people are people and decider functions happen immediately.
@@dylonias I'm not sure what is "that" what you wouldn't do, and how does it have any bearing on blindspots which they, themselves, acknowledge they have. (BTW, I'm not a decider. I'm lead Ne. Don't be deceived by my very concise comment that took hours to formulate.)
@@CherylBeachlerRizzo Yeah, I'm an Ne too. I think I meant it was good to avoid looking for Observer needs when Decider needs are apparent. So the point was more that I don't know if they have a blindspot or not, because they're not necessarily doing anything besides playing the people game. And that I think that's a good way to live (and what I, as a single-observer, am trying to work on).
@@dylonias I wouldn't complain if they weren't charging people a lot of money for their "objective and scienrific" opinions. It's easy to be objective if they can change the meaning of the cognitive functions to fit the way they like.
@@CherylBeachlerRizzo The thing is, that's exactly what they do in videos like this. The "objectivity" is in observable facts, and Decider functions are easier to deduce than Observers. When banging on the tribe, we could be asking them for more info or we could be asking for help in narrowing down. You and I could spend all day trying to Ne "figure it out," but what's obvious is that they're at least doing De. The class, which doesn't cost very much, is where you get more hypothetical stuff
It's funny how you spit bowl all your noleage real Te at it's finest. I watched this like 10 times to think about every point my demon Ti was so confust from your Te because you say something than the other one says totaly and says something that doesn't aline with what the other said like oh totaly look hear I have another Idea. What I have Seen the Tis including myself do is logicly build on what someone haß said. With Ti fourth I am always running behind the others debunking every point while they shit new Bullshit at me.
@@silentseeker3579 But wouldn't for example when you are in a gay relationship and someone asks you about your relationship or you are in public and want to e.g. hold hands not telling about your relationship and not holding hands pretty much not being true to yourself?
@@toni2309 If you can be honest and smart at the same time: good. If honesty is too much of a risk: be smart. You're not losing yourself. You're just not risking your neck, when the one asking doesn't risk anything at all.
I just gave being gay in a country that doesn't allow it as an example because it's an easy one. I personally have a more complicated issue of being autistic and never knowing whether it is safe to be myself or whether being myself will only end up excalating situations to the point where I am really not safe because I am cornered, sensory overloaded and unable to communicate verbally. Problem is, I have been loosing myself, and also loosing my energy to pretending.
@@silentseeker3579 For me personally, it's much more all-encompassing. I'm at a risk because I communicate differently than other people. It easily creates misunderstandings where I am not safe because others don't get that I need more space or need to not have them do certain things. So for me personally, it's really about expressing my emotions differently, giving reasons people will understand.
@Mr. 8-Bit Doggo The weird thing is, like I said in another comment, that I have gone years without knowing myself and doing everything to fit in. I've only recently learned that it's okay to feel my own feelings and search for my own solutions.
