Yeah you can see why they thought of this as a helpful addition but in reality it's a really cumbersome system to use optimally and a significant amount of people are probably muling and getting away with it anyway. Muling is also ironically more straight forward to do without wasting a lot of your time. Hopefully some of the obvious mulers get banned as they should, but realistically someone like doubleshine (if he wasn't streaming) could easily have muled all dmm and gotten away with it.
Maybe a solution here is to risk a set amount of cash, such as within rev caves’ 100k. You could make this value dependent, for example, of bracket, total bank value or increased drop rate multiplier
I'm no pker even though I have my fair share of dealing with pking, and I didn't play deadman mode outside of doing stronghold and scraping together what gp I could while swap rates were 1-1k specifically BECAUSE of the bank key shit. I'm fine with losing any items I have on me idc because if I'm going to take big boy items I care about losing I'm gonna be prepared to fight for my life. But dying and having shit ripped out of my bank sounds so unbelievably miserable it completely deterred me from playing the mode even though I wanted the cosmetics
Hey I played the mode and can confirm this is 100% why I quit. That and a complete lack of protection after death. You die, you try to get another pair of Rune Gloves, some no-life is camping Lumby basement, you die again, and Lowe even more bank! It’s so fucking stupid. That and some areas legitimately becoming unplayable outside of your bracket protection. Entire clans camped the multi Al Kharid area near where any teleport takes you, so if you’re like me and focused on more important quests during protection, quests in that area became strictly impossible to do. The exact tick you entire line of sight you’re frozen and tbed.
I really hope some Jmods especially Manked watches this video. This DMM was pitched to be a little more beginner friendly which got me and a lot of people I know to try, especially since they enticed people with the cosmetics. But holy shit if this DMM is considered "easy" then no wonder past DMMs were so unpopular for people who aren't in PK clans cause dying b2b2b2b when my bank isn't even worth 200K is tilting AF. Like you said, if they stick with the mantra of "only bring what you're willing to lose" then I'll give next DMM a chance.
Deadman Mode's content was sooooo sparse, agreed. Even the morning of the final, I couldn't even find any info on when I could log in and access my bank, when the finals started, and when I finally found it, it was only in BST.
it sounds like the best solution for the time to regear would be a more afforable guardian angel that doesn't count as a sigil slot? maybe sold from perdu at GE. for X amount of gold, the price could scale daily to account for inflation. Instead of the pker getting nothing when GA pops they get the gold spent on it. Player using it gets to not have their regear messed up and pker gets some loot from killing em even if they running around naked to protect their bank. The sigil could also have multiple tiers if you think poor people are stuck never buying it. tier 1 protects item stack values up to 100k, tier 2 up to 1m, tier 3 everything. each tier different fee.
good concept, i hope jagex does something with all the feedback because DMM has so much potential but its just straight up garbage with how its being ran atm
Muleing is an interesting rule. It makes sense but only really stops streamers it feels like. Maybe they would catch a random dude but the chances are pretty low.
you made some really good points here that I mostly agree with. Eapecially the idea of adding points as a criteria for going up the brackets is interesting. I think your points about bank keys being too punishing also touches on something - not everyone has the same.level of skill at the game and dying over and over to much more skilled players pit a lot of people off. My suggestion would be as well as level and points to jump brackets (as you mentioned) there should also be something like ELO or pvp kill requirements. Once you've hit the level cap don't gain combat xp but need to farm points and do some pking. Likewise if your pk count is high enough you're not allowed to pk anymore and have to do the other stuff. Of course they would need to be careful to avoid boosting, like kills have to unique. It is after all supposed to be a pvp game mode, but there's nothing more demoralising than trying to give pvp a go and getting absolutely demolished every time by people with way more practice.
In general the game needs to do a MUCH better job of having some kind of skill based matchmaking for PvP. Dual Arena tried to do this but it's just a complete disaster. It's just so hard to push your way up and get better at PK'ing when you have no idea who you're running into and how many years they've spent playing the game. A proper leaderboard and rank system would help a ton although I have no idea how this could be implemented into DMM
Big agree on the bank keys. It's not hard to avoid getting wiped, it's just an annoying chore every time to regear (and also to save your money if you made any!) I felt like half the time I was playing the ge
Thanks for all of your content during DMM, I enjoyed your streams a lot. I wanted to give a counterpoint as to why bank keys should stay in DMM and also how to better improve them in my opinion. I think losing your bank is important to add some extra pressure to casual players like me. Since there are so many points available from skilling there would be nothing stopping me from training gathering skills totally naked risking literally nothing if I have sigil of storage. With bank keys there is a good incentive for PKers to go scout locations like karambwans or sharks or certain ore since those are valuable resources and the skiller might have a good amount of them in the bank. I would change the deposit box to allow you to place limited stacks of items in there instead of only limiting it to one item. As a skiller I really hated how if I were chopping logs for fletching I would immediately have to do the fletching after because I would lose the logs I cut for it if I die and it really limited my play. I wish I could just deposit my log stack since it's literally only valuable to me. I think gear could also stack up to for example 10 so you could always have an almost complete rebuild ready to go in the depo box and wouldn't have to choose between risking your best gear and merching. The limited space in the depo box would also mean that you can't just store all of your valuable stuff there, but if you have a few stacks or 2 barrows sets there as an example your rebuild would be a lot faster always. The whole thing about risking gp is a moot point due to sigil buying anyways.
If they did away with bank keys they'd have to change the storage sigils too. Something like all resources enter your inventory noted would work, because then you're risking them on death
Such a refreshing take on the whole thing. I've never played DMM before, and finding information about how mechanics work, figuring out what sigils to use, or how to play the game for the best points was AWFUL. Like half of the "did you know" facts you gave were things I didn't, in fact, know. And I played for the full two weeks. I just wanted the cosmetics, and I have never even done LMS, so PKing is not my thing. My first experience wasn't a great one, tbh. I think I would have jumped to b3 and just skilled for t3 sigils if I had known, but I had no idea that's how that worked. The death mechanics were super punishing as a novice player, and I found myself mostly just doing bank standing skills for levels to get points, because it was the only thing I could figure out.
Another thing I wish I had known was about the looting bag. I didn't realize until the last 2 days that you could use looting bags anywhere. I just completely avoided breaches until that point because I couldn't fathom how I was supposed to pick up supplies and not die to a PKer because I had dropped all my food.
What I did for not having to resell and rebuy tons of stuff all the time was fill my risk slots with literal garbage worth a lot in price checker. Eg: Chitin (worth like 5000% what you buy for), blue dragon scales and all the other garbage breaches dropped lmao. This also needs to be fixed, imagine pking someone and you keep seeing trash in the keys, it aint no fun.
Exactly, I have no problem if the system wants to be punishing but when 99% of the time you're just filling your bank slots with junk anyways it kinda defeats any positive for the system
I wanted to play a lot of DMM but I got rekt and it was really hard to rebuild because my wealth was in GE offers. I think the lock fee should just be a percentage of your account networth, like 10% of your networth and you lock your bank and GE.
Really enjoyed your takes on DMM. I think "League-ifying" the game mode would be hugely beneficial. Making the gameplay less confusing and more accessible would really help the game mode. If they made it harder for people to ambush others, and made it more about competition over bosses/resources I think that would be way more interesting. I just ran around the last 3-4 days of DMM and got 16k points without much risk. But the thrill of it being a PvP game mode made me interested in participating more next time around. If some of the changes youve described could be implemented, it would be much more compelling!
GE slots should absolutely be included as safe items for the practical reasons you stated. Granted it would get abused/used to keep extra items safe, but you could reduce deposit box by 8 items and the only difference would be that you could protect stacks. Don't see any issue with that because noone is risking any stacks of decent value, you just invest your money into something that fits in the deposit box. Protecting stacks just reduces this tedium.
A possible solution to the loot keys. Maybe allow the deposit box to note multiple items as one spot to a certain value. Maybe say 300k for this example. So maybe you can have noted 3 mystic tops and bottoms 10 black dhide sets, 300k worth of a particular shard or ether etc.
Yeah, I only played a few days because of the bank/regearing thing. I was constantly trying to guess the prices of sigils to protect my wealth, but would lose big money on them when the prices came down. I would rather have just been able to buy extra gear
I think that for DMM veterans (especially pkers) the bank keys feel like a staple and that's hard to move away from. If the risk of losing items from your bank is removed, I think there is a lot less incentive for pkers to be roaming at most places. Budget setups with sigils are very strong for most of PvM. It's a hard thing to tackle, but just removing the keys will just lead to other problems. I think in general your takes here resonate with a lot of people who pay to swap (like me) but saying that keys "only serve to punish casual and new players to DMM and don't really do much past that" ignores the pkers perspective -- and they are an important piece of the DMM equation. If they do keep the key system, it would be nice if they could implement a system that's integrated to the bank itself. I do think your idea with a GP deposit could be a good patchwork option but would rather a different system be put in place. Pking 500k + the gear on the player every time feels like it would get dull really fast.
Wow, Manked needs to watch this! I love the idea of points unlocking sigil slots, I love the unique bracket builds so wouldn't want it to affect that, but it actually brings a natural controlled progression to the game, people will play longer to experience the game with all sigils. Totally agree on regearing, bank keys and GE offers, exactly my experience. I honestly think it would be much more fun for pkers if there were hundreds of people running around in consistent 200k sets compared to loot keys with 89 herbs, 100 chitin, 1500 archery tickets and all the other crap that gets passed around. Forget about guardian angel, trinkets or whatever, just remove bank keys, no one wants a sigil spot used or even an inventory slot lol, this whole bank key idea is inline with the old DMM of just losing your stats when you die.
Have to say, I don't like the idea of teleport protection, I think at some point you do want the element of hunter vs prey and it feels like being able to effectively scout a location and teleport out without harm is way too OP. A lot of the suggestions that I agree with are already effectively nerfs to pkers
I think one of the big things I'd say is that Deadman (and world PvP!) thrive when organic fights pop up and the goal is either fun or pushing others out of a space, and start getting dire when they turn into a parasitic dynamic where you lose more than your risk and your spot. I'd even argue that having that risk at all is a problem for incentivizing spontaneous fights, as a huge fan of doing world PvP in WoW. What ends up happening is that the fight just stops being one that both people want, or at least are willing to take, because instead of competing over resources or areas you're competing over each others gear which has taken anywhere from 5 minutes to a week of effort to get. Part of this issue is because OSRS gear is just...not impactful enough, to avoid PvM powercreep, for raggers to not have significant portion of the impact of reasonably geared opponents; defense just sucks too much as a stat! But it means that you get asymmetrical fights where one side is risking far more than the other, and suddenly this even competition for resources has turned into one side not wanting to fight because they have a gigantic risk compared to the other, and it further means that every fight's stakes are rocketed up far past competition over resources or spots or even fun. The nature of the pvp death system means that the ideal fights‚ the ones people really love-moderate-upside, low-risk fights-are essentially not a thing if you aren't ragging. Skill is a factor too, but we can ignore that because it's not intrinsic to the game-it feeling hopeless to beat a better player is a reward for that player's time. The skill gap is maybe a bit too gigantic, but in theory, a better player winning more (or even all the time!) is not actually a problem. There's also multi areas where all of this breaks down because clans are infuriating and impossible to fight. So long as resource competition is taking place in areas where having helpers makes you more likely to win, and so long as there's sufficient incentive to team up, the spontaneous fights will always come with the issue of one side being heavily and unhelpfully favored. But let's just ignore that because it's a whole other problem. What would be fun to see to mitigate so much of this (by bypassing it, not solving the concerns), if it wasn't for two big problems, is an expanded deadman all stars format with something like 2-5 set teams ala the Horde and the Alliance in WoW. Suddenly these individually asymmetric fights aren't a huge problem because you're competing for your team, not just yourself, and you will always have hypothetical backup! But a) this plays very poorly with individual financial rewards that jagex use to advertise DMM as an esport, and b) it's too easy for clans to game the system, group up together, sabotage whatever team they get placed on or make a new account or..., and ruin everyone else's fun by making the team competition an unbalanced and unhelpful nightmare for non-clan members.
I really hope they consider bringing back the single finals. It's such better content for them too. Not saying I could compete for the win, but just to have the opportunity to make the bracket would make me less likely to quit and transfer 5 days out.
if you are bad at pking, joining a clan and doing the finale in multi is so much more fun than 1 vs 1ing. But if you are good at pking singles is going to be more fun. If you are a viewer, singles is better cause you can actually see what's going on.
Great video. Thanks for sharing your toughts with us, keep it up. I would like to disagree with you and share my opinion on the topic of removing bank keys/letting stack up on return sets. The main selling point of the gamemode is killing someone and having a chance at their bank valuables, thats what makes people play the gamemode instead of just logging into pvp world/wilderness* which is stale for most people after all these years. If this mechanic ceased to exist, it would make DMM just a glorified pvp world with boosted xp and drop rates, which someone could argue it already is a glorified pvp world ever since they removed xp loss on death. If this were to be implemented, i think it would create more problems than solve them in competitive aspect, as in people just returning either to rag players or rag monsters in low budget gears. I do agree with you that dying feels horrendous regarding feeling like you are put in a timeout, but i would like to think that knowing your risks and how to fight back/escape/avoid and not die to pkers is a skill in itself a valuable skill in this gamemode, and that just comes with experience of playing the gamemode. Also, not losing grand exchange offers would just cut out the mules and people would use GE as the primary mule just having either just raw cash or entire return sets stored in their GE offers. My suggestion for this would be just update the deposit box so it can perhaps hold more items and some items such as consumables in certain capacity so regearing is sped up. DMM will always be ruthless and not fair to a new players, especially solo players , just because of its nature as a pvp-first gamemode.
I think it's easy to say things like sigils, boosted xp, a tournament, leaderboards, breaches, and trinkets set DMM apart from pvp worlds plenty enough.
you should try a tank pure next DMM, I ended up top 100 without leaving baby bracket, and if you found dying very frustrating eliminating that as an option could be a nice change for the next season
Totally agree with the re-gearing and knowing what you've lost on death in your bank. The best way to get new people involved in pvp is to make dying not feel like such a burden. The fact that most PVPers complain about not having anyone to kill whilst simultaneously typing "sit rat gt*o of DMM" blows my mind.
@@michaelbreaux-tj6mx if you watch pkers, the bank keys are almost always worthless anyways. It's only really noobs that will actually risk their bank, everybody else just spends a lot of time micromanaging their bank or straight up mule
@@XxSupaBAMxX I watch oda block and was in his cc pking with them. Keys are not worthless, you usually get an extra 200k-500k pking other pkers. People just expect other people to have vls's in there bank and not depo'd haha. Removing keys is just telling everyone to not go out with gear to tank, so now pvmers/skillers/questers are going to go do stuff in the absolute worst gear as possible ruining dmm even more.
I only got to play leagues with 1 DPS relic, I'd have loved to try out another one and different areas during summer and for them to do another different league later.
A league world for each league would be insane, just like the world 345 for deadman, since it’s Ironman no need for GE so everyone can play without any bullshit
Im not much of a pker but i did really enjoy playing/surviving in DMM with the increased xp, drop rates and sigils. The process of grabbing new gear, selling off drops and not going out risking too much in your bank was incredibly tedious and i can see some PKers having similar issues with this system. If youve seen any PKing content in DMM, 99% of keys were absolute fucking garbage regardless if someone tried to make their key bad or not. All the loot came from the gear and trinkets people were risking, not their bank keys. Might aswell remove bank keys at this point and just increase the time everyone is actually playing the game and not being forced to sit at the GE. I dont see how people have a problem with removing keys if there are so many ways to cheese the system anyway, its just obnoxious at this point. Also the fluctuating prices of sigils were a huge fucking mess and probably ruined a lot of peoples experience. At one point i woke up and a sigil i invested in the day before dropped over 50% in price, absolutely destroying the money i had gathered. Maybe some system to limit how much an item can fluctuate in price per day would help alot with stuff like this.
100% the bank key system was the reason I had no interest in playing DMM When the predominant strategy is to find a cockamamie way to ignore a mechanic you’ve made a punishment for not doing chores at best or you farther reward exploits.
ok i listened to it all, and from 27:55 - 59:00 i disagree to an extent on some things. the information gap or lack of information is a big issue, spending your time and path in the temporary game mode should be valued by having a concrete info on rules, breach times, drop rates, key deaths etc like you said, but where i start to disagree is the actually playing of the game or mechanics. you mentioned competition over resource, and it sounds pretty, but the game mode is purely about doing all you can do without dying to another player. If you happen to die to another player it shouldnt feel so bad that you want to quit the gamemode, but it should sting enough that you get your heart rate up, or make you better prep your inventory, or escape better, or prep your depo box better if you plan on dying and having a rebuild set to buy. Now you shouldnt have to buy a rebuild set every time from the ge, but putting the lowest rebuild sets in the dmm points guy would make the most sense, instead of spending all ur money on halos and brews/restores. So i know youve warned me that you dont pk much, but i still have to say it, if youre going to accept that you are the prey, then you need to tank or escape better. Just on the few clips you had in the background I could see why you might have had a bad time vs some of the pkers. That might be easy for me to say because i pk a lot, but i also pvm a lot, so i should be rewarded in game for being able to balance all of my play styles into one game mode. for example i spent the entire dmm casually pvming as a solo player, even having pvm sigils on for the most part and fought back against everyone who hit me everywhere. I set out to always be prepared to fight and not just tank or escape, this was extremely hard against the giga chads and i usually had to escape early in the fights. So i ended up with only 1 legit solo death to a pker who legit just smoked me and i said gf, because he deserved that kill with good rng. Now this just leads me to the point of the keys and the playstyles and safezones. In dmm specifically i could legit play it the safest way possible and promise you id never die and end with the same points. if the people spamming tele spots are such a problem, them lucky u have unlimited run, you can run and hover tele the entire run where ever u want. There is a problem with allowing way to many safe zones, and/or activities that allow you to train or raid etc in safezones. this leads pkers to do what ever it takes to secure some pk kills, because everyone is in or training close to a safezone and basically playing the game mode on easy mode. Meanwhile im having the escapes of a life time in multi and solos areas by me just running around the map doing what i want. I have that privilege because i put so much time into my mechanics in pvp, i was also able to secure many anti pks, but thats my reward for my risk and effort. i should get that players key and bank slots, and if i die they shall get mine. I tried to be easy with my criticism there since you said you dont pvp, but the last one is the walk under shift click. I completely disagree, not because im a gate keeping pker, but because it ruins the skill of the tank or escape (the pvp experience). I wont debate it heavy other than explain it with a already resolved solution and that is if you want to fight back then have your left click options on, and if you want to escape a player, then always have you player options on right click. That quite literally is a better option for the escaper, and doesnt disrupt the pker prey experience, or the integrity of it, and that way someone good like me doesnt get to fight back for free, and if i need to escape then i should have to skillfully escape to telly and not be cushioned by the shift click. Closing, i agreed with basically everything you said unrelated to pking or keys, or just what i would call the protein of the gammode. I think the wildy should strike fear in people, dmm should strike fear in people. The intense moments in pvp scenarios is what makes the gammode fun in my opinion. There just needs to be a balance for the pker and the prey, if the balance sways too far to one side it could ruin the experience for the other.
What if a game mode only allows a limited amount of hours on a future "LeUges of TiMe" 6 hrs per day?3 hrs per day?Maybe the game mode lasts 3 whole mumfs :o
If there were a play time limit it'd have to be set high enough to not really require planning, like 12 hours, just enough to say "go eat shower and sleep"
Enjoy your videos and you're a good and humble creator but suggesting competitive leagues be limited to 2 weeks is a massive L take imo. You did clarify you feel leagues should be 6-8 weeks but seems really strange and bizzare to have leaderboards freeze at 2 weeks. Leagues is more for everyone to enjoy than DMM and the majority of us have real life jobs and can't play osrs 16 hrs a day. It's fun to watch you do that kind of thing in DMM, but no game should be designed to specifically cater for people who will put in those hours every day for the duration. Osrs already does too much of that. Arguably leagues should be longer so we're not as 'forced' or rushed to fully enjoy everything it has to offer before the end. I know obviously people will no life it pretty hard, but that really shouldn't be the expectation. It is not Jagex' fault if these players burn out or get bored half way through a seasonal event. In any other game that's seen for what it is - playing the thing too much. Leagues being 6+ weeks makes it way more practical to fully enjoy and 'complete/compete' to some extent whilst still having a job and not becoming a complete recluse.
I probably coulda clarified more but in general I don't know any seasonal mode that has a competitive window that lasts 8 weeks like Leagues does. I think the competition should be altered to like "1st person to reach X points" or something like that to make it a bit shorter and have a clear goal as opposed to where it currently stands where the top placers are people who play 16+ hours a day for 2 months straight.
@@doubleshine respect and appreciate your response. Agree that's a great way to do it. I think shattered relics had a few such things but they're more 'world first/top 3' rather than a full leaderboard. Means you can rush and compete if you want to but without restricting or limiting the mode to only really those that can play full time. (If it's 1 or 2 weeks, even those with jobs can just book time off which is great). Other thing that crosses my mind is you could have a 'leagues all stars' like the deadman one recently where it repeats/runs in parallel for streamers etc to compete for that, then the main one runs separately.
I'm not sure if they explained that all your bank would be wiped after the end of the season but I wouldn't have played at all. Losing all progress for a season I didn't have much of a chance to play in the first place just sucked. Deadman All-stars was good but they'll never fix the public mode when that malicious clan exists. Hope they stay banned and are continuously banned.
I don't agree with the regearing and bank slots .This is a pvp game mode thats supposed to be high RISK! Getting killed should feel like a huge set back thats the reason you had a shaky hand at the breach. there is no other time in RS besides deadman when my heart rate increases during a Gamemode. It seems your problem is you need to practice your tanking, you brewed down and brought entangles to a gamemode where ancients is free. you dont feel safe risking drops from vorkath between trips when vorkath is 30 tiles of pvp to get to. Just need to be more strategic with escaping and planning for when you die. should be able to sell sigils and depo gear and be back out in 10-15min.
So I totally agree there should be risk and deaths should feel punishing, I don't want them to take that away. The problem is deaths right now just feel annoying more than anything. It's not really a pain to lose your bank stacks, you just have to always be filling them up with worthless garbage and I think that just makes the whole system fall apart.
really spent 25 minutes saying 'fuck the point of deadman mode' uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh dunno bout that one chief
I think if they set a value limit on gear you risk so that if your in max you can’t hit dudes with an adamant axe at a tree or with a fishing Rod unless ur too in shit gear
I felt like this DMM was incredibly forgiving. Safety deposit box. Sigils are safe in bank. Store your money in sigils. I died 2 times all leagues and I rebuilt immediately with points and/or deposit box items. I think you needed to strategize a bit harder. Plus I stacked fairly worthless items in my bank and that's what I lost.
no one pushing for points actively can avoid dying a good amount in dmm between breaches dangerous boss locations and slayer tasks in multi u had to take big risks to progress at a good speed also if your playing correctly storing items in depo using junk items and buying sigils u risk very little but every time you die u have to redo that process which is time consuming
@@telezon7206 i did 200 solo sara kc this dmm (got 3 acbs) died 0 times after being repeatedly hit by clans. Most deaths are because of complacency or not pre-planning an exit strategy if attacked. Not every death is avoidable but most are.
Haha a fair point. But that means someone played a lot, doesn't mean they were smart about it when they complained about losing bank items. @@telezon7206
Your video is very detailed and I agree with some points but oh my, the comment section is insane. If DMM has become like this and people are requesting such changes, just go play Leagues. Leagues was meant to be a solo, PvM mode where you aim towards point goals and hiscores, DMM is PvP and this one was ruined by all these changes. Keep it classic. Two different game modes.
i play osrs for the pvm stuff. no need to mix it up with pvp. let the pvp sweats have their egomaniac god complex worlds and the occasional event to keep them hooked and that's about it
The issue is that Jagex tries to promote DMM as this broad appeal event that even people that don't have interest in PVP can enjoy - then they make half-assed changes that make it easier but nt truly enjoyable for non-PVPers and slap a bunch of cosmetic rewards specifically for non-PVP items to lure in as much players as possible to increase player counts. They can't ride two horses like that without ruining it for everyone. I say they should strip DMM of all the league-esque aspects, revert it to the PVP-centric state it was back in the day, and remove the cosmetics except maybe some items strictly related to PVP in the main game. The people that enjoy the hardcore PVP environment can play DMM, the ones that don't will stick to Leagues
