Hey friends, thanks for your interest in our debate! And my appreciation to Sonny Hernandez for reaching out to me to do it. A quick note of clarification. Dr. Hernandez and the moderator had agreed that we would NOT discuss whether we viewed the other as being a believer, but they inadvertently failed to mention that to me. (We had agreed on this when I debated a colleague of Dr. Hernandez earlier in the year on another subject.) So, when he mentioned in his opening statement that his position represented the only true gospel, I wanted him to make clear what that meant, namely that he didn't regard me or the vast majority of the Body of Christ as believers. I only learned the next day that the reason he was reluctant to answer at the beginning and the reason the moderator wouldn't let me continue was because of their agreement which, again, they failed to tell me, inadvertently. I was baffled on my end, but this explains it. Of course, at the end of the debate, Dr. Hernandez made his views clear, explaining fully what he meant in his opening comments. Thanks again for your interest!
Dr. Brown, you did very, very well in this debate. It's given me clarity regarding this issue. After you humbly apologized, the whole feeling of the debate changed, and God gave you wisdom to refute error. I am so glad that we have a charismatic/ continuationist who is able to defend our view with truth and grace. I understand some of your aggressiveness in the beginning could have been due to the format of the debate not being laid out clearly ahead of time, AND also Dr. Hernandez refusing to treat you as a brother in Christ. Is this a normal Calvinist position? You do so well with James White and I know that he treats you as a brother.
Dr. Brown, you exhibited a great deal of grace, patience and honor. There are few who engage in the scholarly world of debate with an authentic love... you strove to do this. As you know, God's love trumps "verse and chapter" alone. Again, your light shines bright. God bless you, sir. BTW.. your parallel to Yom Kippur was brilliant !! Bullseye !!
I hear two people debate; one who loves and knows God deeply, showing grace, clarity and humility; the other knows old Greek and a lot of Bible verses, calling everyone who does not see things his way unsaved and a false teacher. Lord, help us love You more than wisdom.
You nailed it, Fast Eddie. I think Michael could have just about matched Sonny in Greek and outdone him in Hebrew, but he was too busy acting appropriately and trying to be a little bit sensitive to his audience. As for the wisdom you mentioned, actually, Sonny didn't exhibit a lot of that. (Knowledge, yes, wisdom, no.)
@@henriquealexandreh Interesting that you would say that because the father of doctrines of grace, namely Augustine, did not even know Greek. Therefore, based on your own standard of qualification, the very foundation of the reformed philosophy must be taken into question.
Really doing my best to listen to Sonny's views & to put my on biases to the side. It seems like Sonny is more interesting in his theology than the actual context of scripture.
Because it is a different Gospel. Let’s be honest, manu Calvinist are more loose on their view as brothers in Christ, Dr White included. In one Gospel salvation is secure, in the other gospel you can lose your salvation. I don’t considered arminians brothers in Christ and it is unloving to say they are if I do not truly believe so. It is not radicalization, it is that your side believes that path that leads to eternal life is not narrow, this is not a difference on opinion on worship, eschatology, or sacraments, this is the Gospel issue, would you consider a Mormon a fellow brother? Why not? because they do not hold on to the essentials to be a Believer, The Deity of Christ, Who God is, and the GOSPEL.
What essentials do you speak of? Determinism? There is no gospel according to calvin and his teachings are not the way to eternal life. Step back and realize the insanity of calvinism
@@thereisnopandemic Mormons are not regarded as Christians because they are members of a protestant sects that disregard the Nicean creed. They are not disciples of Christ but of Joseph Smith. Protestant Calvinist, Protestant Arminians, Protestant traditionalists, Christian Orthodox and Catholic Christians are all brothers because they hold firm to the Nicean Creed and they are disciples of Christ. Calvinists are unfortunate because they also hold a series of false doctrines, and they can't help themselves to love this untruth because they are radicalised by their leaders.
Don’t let this guy make you think there not brothers. God doesn’t care if your a Arminian or Calvinist he looks past are stupidity. The question is do you trust Christ with every fiber in your body. And did you repent and turn from your sins? Yes we need to believe Christ is deity, we need to follow the Bible but when truly saved the Holy Spirit will lead you into the truth.
Dr. Brown steadily gained steam as the debate went on, and made his points very well. I rejoiced at the truth he shared! It's not hard to understand: a gift can be rejected. For those who reject God's mercy, wrath is the only option for them. A firefighter who rescues someone from a burning building gets all the credit for saving a life, not the person that let himself be rescued. In the same way, Jesus gets all the credit for saving us! Although I am more of what you would call a charismatic, I do appreciate certain aspects of reformed theology: namely the clarity in which they teach that salvation is not attained at all by works, but by grace, through faith, made possible by the meritorious propitiation Christ made on our behalf. I think John Piper is a much better spokesperson for their theology with his emphasis on enjoying God and finding Him to be all satisfying. At the end of the day: I disagree with Dr. Hernandez's statement that the gospel IS as he explains it, and it can only be that. Calvinism and Arminianism are two sides of the same coin. They are ways of reconciling both the sovereignty of God and free will of man. You can't put God in a box. These two different aspects balance out our view of God and correct a propensity for error to either side.
Theology has ruined the man. He squeezes all scripture through the filter of his theological systematic of Calvinism, instead of checking the systematic against scripture.
Dr. Sonny: "[Dr. Brown] I don't consider you a brother...as the bible says you love your enemy and I certainly cherish you". Dr. Brown: "I'm as born again as you are". SAD. May the Lord open Dr. Sonny's eyes.
Have I missed something... There are billions who have never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ, faith comes into Jesus Christ, by hearing the gospel. Billions have not heard = Jesus Christ has a specific people for who He shed His blood, removing the wrath of God from them, by paying their debt.
Don’t let this one guy make your argument. I’ve met tons of calvinists that are humble because of there theology. This guy says others are not his brother in Christ because they don’t believe in determinism. That should show you right there. I know plenty of calvinists that would say that dr brown is a brother.
@@alternatology9148 what I’m saying is if you understand the word adoption, you understand that you would go and choose a child and adopt them. The child dose not choose you. Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, “just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” for what? “In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself” adoption, meaning he chose us we didn’t choose him. Ephesians 2:8-9 it is a gift of God so that no man may boast What I meant was because we are chosen we fall on our face and praise God because of it. You could have something to boast about if you said I did 1% of it and chose him. No, you seek to glorify God because he chose you.
Lol this dude opens up indicating if you’re not a Calvinist you may not be saved, so when Dr. Brown cross examines that during the CROSS EXAMINATION he says it’s not the topic and this moderator tells Dr. Brown to stay on topic. A clown statement with clown support. 😂
This idea that Christ's blood was "wasted" if you're not a Calvinist because some people don't accept his offer is stupid. Given how many people are and have been saved, Christ's work on the cross was not wasteful if we don't subscribe to Calvinism.
I hold close to the Reformed position but in listening to Dr. Brown, how can you not think he is not a brother in Christ? He holds to simplicity and basic affirmation of the Gospel. Sonny just has a theological difference of what HE thinks things are read and interpreted in the bible. So if you are not in lock-step with Sonny, your not a brother? Wow.
Sonny is a bad representative of Calvinism. Dr. White was a much better person to debate. He is a gentleman and I enjoyed Dr. Brown's debates with Dr. White.
Sonny is a great missionary for the truth; his weird inconsistent ranting, pompous stuttering of Greek and refusal to answer questions are just as persuasive against Calvinism as the words of his eloquent opponent.
Some remarks: I felt like each one did much better when being cross-examined than when cross-examining. I felt like Sonny took the lead when he was being cross-examined, then fell behind when he did the cross-examining.Using boxing terminology, in the final two minutes or so, Sonny ran into a straight right hand, when he brought up the word "many." (I saw that one coming, as soon as he had spoken.) Another huge setback for him was bringing up the subject of Israel's sacrifices. Finally, Sonny is really a weirdo. Michael will occasionally bring up the Greek or Hebrew in a debate, but Sonny was constantly referencing it. This was pretty inappropriate, unless the debate was held for the benefit of some Harvard seminarians. Also, his insistence on one embracing Calvinism, in order to be saved is incredibly bizarre. (Does he tell people in his open-air meetings that they have to believe that Jesus only died for them, in order to be saved?) I have never questioned Michael Brown's salvation, but I really have doubts about Sonny's. If one of these men doesn't understand the one true gospel, it would be him. His addition of Calvinism to faith in Jesus as a requirement is not so unlike the Judaizers requirement of circumcision.
You can’t defend your views by exegeting Scripture. Just like Dr. Brown has to twist Scripture. Dr. Brown hangs out with Word of faith devils, so how trustworthy is he really?
Sonny says in the end, "I don't regard you as a brother"!!!! WOW!!!! If Dr. Brown is not a Christian, then who is? I have never seen or heard of an online personality that reminds me more of Jesus Christ than Dr. Brown. I am always humbled by his love and grace. Jesus came to bring grace and truth and I see Dr. Brown bring grace and truth a lot like Jesus literally all the time. I can't believe this guy gets away with calling non-5-point Calvinists heretics, not brothers, non-Christians, and anathema (Gal ch. 1 he refers to). He was anathemitizing all non-5-pointers---though he says that was not his intent....its just what he plainly said....though not intended....figure that one out..... 4-point Calvinists as well are all going to hell. WOW!!! What a piece of work. I know he is in an extreme minority of even 5-pointers. The "gospel" he alludes to is not what the Bible says is the gospel. 1 Cor 15:1-3 tells us what is meant by the gospel. I am praying for Sonny. That he would gain wisdom to see what Dr. Brown so pointedly laid out from the Bible. GREAT JOB DR. BROWN!!! You totally represented the text of scripture and represented the love of Jesus. I highly respect you!!!
@@theresaguide8363 Brown does NOT rely on his good works for salvation. He teaches that Christians ought to live holy lives, but that is nothing like what you describe. The Bible talks about tongues and healing often. I am not sure why you reject what the Bible teaches we should pray for. Read 1 Corinthians 12-14 and see where Paul tells the Christians to pray for the Spirit's gifts like healing and tongues, where Paul says "I wish you ALL spoke in tongues". and Paul says, "I speak in tongues". Your comment is just false in many ways, but I love you as a Sister (I assume) and pray you don't come so hard down on Dr. Brown. He is a good brother in Christ and is not a false teacher. I recommend you withhold judgement and condemnation until you are 100% sure you are making a sound judgement. "Innocent until proven guilty" right?
@@StevenWayneJones brown adds to. Bible with tongues visions healing. I would flee his teaching sir. A dead man cannot respond to God. God gives eyes to see. We r capable of only sin. God makes us righteous through the grace of Christ's righteousness. Brown is into gold dust feathers and fake healing. Satan comes as angel of light.
@@theresaguide8363 How well do you know Dr. Brown? It seems like you don't know anything about him. Where are you getting your information? It sounds like you are just flat out lying about him....? Lying is a sin too you know?
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me- 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” - John 6:44-51 ESV
I hold to the reformed view but I’d never say Michael Brown or anyone else who holds to his view is not a brother or sister in Christ!!! That’s insane.
Sonny is not a scholar, an exegete, or even a Sunday school teacher....he brought a spork to a gun fight....DR Brown kindly but firmly brought the boom....Calvinist need a better apologist than poor old Sonny
Dr .Michael Brown is so drawn by terms and then strings them together but can't put the context together of what it's actually saying. If the blind man was healed. Aka physically blind and another verse says the blind leading the blind. He will say it means the same. With zEro context.
10:14 Sonny 'assumes' taking away the sins of the world, which is why Christ came and died, automatically means the death of Christ is what 'saves'. That is not true. 1st, his resurrection is also required, 2nd BELIEVING in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection is necessary. God saves those who will believe. The contention is that people go to hell for their sins is wrong. The fact is , just as Jesus told the Pharisees, they will die in their sins..... BECAUSE they will not believe. The world does not have a sin problem, Christ has paid for the sins of the world. BUT it is only beneficial to those who will believe it is true. Rejecting and denying what Christ has done in his willing sacrifice for them is why men will go to Hell. There is NO verse or passage in proper context which establishes any man is 'BORN' unable to believe. It is Calvin's "Missing Link". Some will believe, some will not... but anyone can.
Yeah he sounds like a buffoon and keeps interrupting at inappropriate times with his stupid mouse clicks. Moderators are supposed to ensure the debate flows, not disrupt it
Calvinism paints a picture of God that is not Biblical. It is based in philosophy and straw man arguments. Words do not mean what they mean. The Bible speaks of God's will but a Calvinist when pressed on an argument will make up categories to escape the plain meaning. For instance God has a decreed will and a prescriptive will, where is that in the Bible? All does not mean all without exception, it means all kinds of people. The Holy Spirit was not wise enough to use a word that he wanted to use. Calvinism is Augustinian Gnostic Philosophy.
Hey sonny , take a look at Hebrews 2 : 9 and pay attention when you read it this time . It says yeah CHRIST tasted death for " EVERY " man without exception . That's what the word every means you see . It means every single one . You really need to examine yourself .
Thank you SO much Dr. Brown!!! This will be so helpful when faced with these questions from my Calvinist brothers and sisters. Appreciate and respect you highly! God bless
Absolutely cowardly to introduce a topic not following the debate topic and then refuse to answer a simple yes or no question. And then throw a fit about the question not following the topic.
Seems as tho Sonny is amazingly prideful and he puts his knowledge of Greek & his personal theology/interpretation of Scripture above Scripture Itself! Soooo horribly weird! Anyhow, very well done Dr. Brown humbly dealing with this dude!
@@eugenenunn4900 Indeed, I'm a Calvinist, and love Dr. Brown, firmly believe he's saved any my brother in Chris, and look forward greatly to rejoicing and praising God in eternity with him. I absolutely repudiate this idea that we're saved by believing in Calvinism; we're saved by believing in Christ. Dr. Brown clearly trusts in Christ, and so while we may disagree about exactly how our faith came about, we're both saved by Christ's blood and stand before God on the same footing, which is Christ's righteousness.
@@good_brake well there's a few calvinist in these comments that have expressed how unsaved they believe HE is and it disgusting to say the very least .
@@cecilspurlockjr.9421 Most of the comments I see are in support of Brown, and/or criticizing Sonny, which apart from some unfairly lumping all Calvinists together as if Sonny was our Pope, I think is fair. Unfortunately every branch of Christendom has it's radicals, and we ought not judge a position by it's most poorly behaving adherents.
@@good_brake I judge Calvinism by the scriptures and my unpleasant experiences of being constantly attacked by them . It's unscripural and plain to see the spirit of Calvinism is not THE SPIRIT of GOD . I hate Calvinism but I love Calvinist so don't misunderstand my friend . It has caused much division in the church and also in my very own family . I blame people like James white and Jeff Durbin and MacArthur and those types for misleading our youths and also the biblically illiterate into a type of militant behavior towards the noncalvinistic members of the body of CHRIST. They dishonestly misrepresent everyone and then argue amongst themselves . Like I said NOT OF GOD . If it weren't for the internet this mess would've already been put back down again like in times past . There is a reason that Calvinism is one of the most minority views in Christianity and among the majority of scholars with a high view of Scripture , actually most scholars with a high view of Scripture . There's no telling how many times Calvinist have told me that I'm not saved because I think I have free will . Well I know I have free will and GOD is THE ONE who created me with it and it's not something one uses against GOD as so many Calvinist have said but something we're to give to GOD and to accept the gift HE has offered us and to live as HE would have us to as THE HOLY SPIRIT seals us and guides us . Those who don't use the free will GOD has blessed us with as HE plainly instructs us to then we suffer the wrath of GOD . This is biblical salvation and perserverance my friend as the texts of Scripture informs us . I understand that sonny is radical to some extent but only as far as where he says if you're not a calvinist you're not saved . If not then could you please show me where he's radical concerning consistent Calvinism in any other aspect ? I would honestly appreciate it if you could show me where your view is different than his or other Calvinist I've encountered . I will be waiting for your reply as I hope to hear from you my friend .
I think the argument in the book of Hebrews starting 3:11 is clearly demonstrating the necessity of your faith. God uses a strange oath: if they enter my rest. The author of Hebrews goes on to explain both sides of the conditional, the negative then the positive, by faith. This conditional oath is present both in the original hebrew and in the Greek text.
Are you saying the verse is false? Let's get that out of the way first, then we can move on to the fact that the false teachers reject the free gift that Christ bought for all men. Just because I buy pizza for 30ppl, and only 10ppl actually eat the free gift of pizza, it does not mean that I Failed to provide pizza for the 20 that rejected my free offer of pizza. They go hungry because of their rejection of the pizza I purchased for them. They go hungry because they ignored the flyers I handed to each of them letting them know when and where the pizza would be available. They go hungry because they ignored the employees I sent to their houses to let them know when, where and how they can enjoy this free gift of pizza.
Disputes about words, concepts. To prove that God only chooses some for salvation, vessels of wrath and honor. Denying freewill, for why do we live this life when God knows how we end up heaven or hell. You must live your life to be accountable...which is volition and freewill.
God also then created people that he knew that would end up in Hell. Your "free will" worship logic makes no sense.God reveals himself in Romans 9:11-24 which tells you that God makes vessels of honor prepared for glory, and vessels of dishonor fitted to destruction.
Finally managed to get through this debate. Appalling. First, the moderator is clearly not impartial. He stopped Dr Brown every time his buddy Hernandez was put in a corner and couldn't answer Dr Brown's questions. Conversely, he allowed Hernandez to go completely off track, and did not say a word. Second, expectedly, the Calvinist was reciting the usual script. It's absolutely frustrating to get pre-compiled answers to questions, especially when the answers are not actually relevant, but they are thrown against the opponent to answer what they think is the rational behind the question, and completely missing the point of the question itself. There's no real reasoning from the Calvinist, just plain reciting a script. Third, Hernandez has shown us the usual Calvinist quest for redefining words. To continuously try and say that words clearly meaning what they mean don't actually mean what everybody thinks they mean is preposterous. You might as well do what's most logical for you to do: write your own Bible translation, just like other cults such as JWs do. And this leads to my fourth point: with this obsession about "it doesn't actually say what you think it's saying" Calvinist reveal a substantial gnostic influence. If what they are saying is true, then the average non-enlightened uneducated (=without gnosis, knowledge) person cannot understand the true message of the Bible. This is in plain contrast with the biblical teaching, and the clear plain revelation of God to man. All of that was then topped with a bunch of fallacies in the second half of the debate, the most irritating of which were loaded questions to try and put Dr Brown in a situation where he would sound like he believes that man contributes towards salvation. This is a cheap trick used by many Calvinists, that to this day do not comprehend the role of faith in salvation. Depressing performance by Hernandez. Well done Dr Brown; though I don't share your soteriological view 100% and also some of the comments you made about some other stuff, you were gracious, fair, firm, and bold as usual. God bless you.
Oh to want to take credit for your eternal soul. I accept Christ. I walked the aisle and prayed. No way. Scripture is clear that we are dead in our sins. God has to replace our heart of stone. Look up elect and chosen. In an accordance. I have at least fifty verses that teach Calvinism. Calvinism is simply the Gospel. Salvation is of the Lord. He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Jacob have I loved essau have I hated. We want sin not redemption Brown may be smart good speaker but he is leading many astray.
Yeah, Michael Brown rocks. Such a valuable member of the Body of Christ, such an example of Spirit and Word. You know what I thought when Sonny was asking about salvation being "of the Lord?" I thought of Jesus telling all these people that their faith had saved them. Or how about Peter (in Acts 2) telling people to save themselves from their perverse generation?
@@theresaguide8363 show me where it says we can't recognize that we're dead in sin and need a savior upon hearing the truth of the gospel . You can't because it's not in scripture . We can't save ourselves but we can accept a gift from CHRIST THE ONE WHO can save us . You really need to quit listening to that dishonest ridiculous James white . He is ruining evangelism for us that teach the truth about the offer from CHRIST to everyone .
This is classic. Sonny knows his theology but can’t exegete Scripture without reading it into the text. I think this was clear through out but perhaps most clear in Romans 11 “all in disobedience” and “mercy to all”. The fact that he asked Dr Brown how he is not a universalist just shows how he cannot think outside his systematic theology for one minute. You would think if you were debating someone you would at least try to have a basic understanding of their position before hand. When DrB debated this man’s colleague I couldn’t help but think how he was living in an echo chamber for the same above mentioned reasons.
JESUS DIED FOR EVERYONE: “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (Isa. 53:6) _____ “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16). “he by the grace of God should taste death for every man” (Heb. 2:9). “Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Tim. 2:6). “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.” (2Co 5:14-15). “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). JESUS DIED FOR THOSE WHO PERISH: “Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died” (Romans 14:15) “And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?” (1 Corinthians 8:11) “Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:29) “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” (2 Peter 2:1)
Imagine being a grown adult and thinking if someone doesn’t believe God only chooses to save some that they aren’t themselves saved. That is so actively stupid and embarrassing.
It's very similar to Islam in the sense that Muhammad himself said of the 73 sects of Islam that will form, only one will go to heaven and the rest will go to hellfire regardless of works (Islam is a works based faith).
I disagree with Dr White in considering Dr Brown as a brother in Christ. His gospel is a different one than those in the Reformation, he aligns himself with the Remonstrant. Hopefully the Lord grants Dr Brown repentance that leads to eternal life. Dr Brown says that God secured salvation but at the same time I have heard him say that he believes that a child of God can lose their salvation.
In not a Calvinist..but I believe in the doctrine of election because its clearly taught in scripture.. John 6 is not the Father giving the Son a people who HE saw would believe...that's not what it says... the GIVING is first and THEN HIS people believe because of the giving. Of course Judas was not died for... Pharaoh was chosen to be Pharaoh..for " this purpose " GOD raised him up......Jacob and Esau.. GOD chose before " either one of them did anything right or wrong.....I understand that it can be a hard truth to accept but in Ephesians the choosing is before the foundation of the WORLD..not looking down the corridors of time to see who would choose GOD.The doctrines of GRACE teach us that GOD mercies whom HE CHOOSES to and that HIS MERCY CANNOT be demanded.This is the same GOD WHO killed everyone except for 8 people in the old testament and yet you hear it's not " in keeping with HIS NATURE". Salvation is a gift...not of works nor is it of ourselves so we cant boast.But if the choosing relies upon myself then I have to have something WITHIN myself that an unsaved person doesn't have...and so self righteousness commonly gives me a false sense of security, that I don't want to let go of.We LOVE to feel like we're better than we actually are.GOD doesn't need us..we need HIM!... Our fallen view of ourselves causes us to seek glory whenever we can find it... so we LOVE doctrines that lift us up while (trying to) bring GOD down.The doctrines of GRACE crush our pride and floods our hearts with Thanksgiving unto GOD for doing what is impossible for us to do or even "help" HIM do! The bible is clear in the didactic teachings that NO MAN seeks GOD nor do they come to HIM UNLESS THE FATHER draws HIM...and ALL who are drawn or promised to be KEPT. If all men are drawn then all men will be kept..but we know all men aren't kept because not all men are drawn.I disagree with Sonny that Michael is not a believer... we as believers are still being sanctified and are learning every day... I understand tradition which says GOD gives us an offer...I used to believe that as well.... but as I began to study...GOD'S WORD clearly taught that GOD chose us first...by the time we choose GOD we are being awakened because HE FIRST CHOSE US.... and so in Romans 9 when it explains to us that GOD CHOSE one and not the other it says " So what are we to say?.. is there any injustice in GOD?.. can the one formed say to the ONE WHO formed it ?..Who are YOU oh man to try and tell GOD.?".... If we are chosen based on our choosing then we get some of the glory...but because GOD does as HE pleases HE gets all of the GLORY...it says in scripture that HE does with HIS creation as HE pleases..some for vessels of wrath and some for vessels of MERCY...... Thank you Dr Brown for your kindness.God bless you my brother!
I like your comment, it was very though provoking. Especially you bringing up Pharaoh and Esau etc. And that you are humble enough to acknowledge that Gods children are being enlightened and growing in grace everyday. I just say that I’m a son of God according to Jn 1:12 so to me since Jesus died for me I must believe that Jesus died for all. Therefore I continue to pray for my brother that he would be saved and that God would draw him to the cross of Calvary
Proclaiming themselves to be wise, they become (Lo chacha). The Holy Spirit can't live in this person. Jesus has no favoritism, we have a choice to believe in him or not! God ordained the way to be saved. Not ordain who would be saved. As for who is a Real Christian, by the fruits you shall be known. Changing Jesus teaching and calling a person who Jesus made clean from sin not a brother, you are right! Hernandez is NOT a brother bc he doesn't know The Real GOD! Maybe someday Hernandez will know Jesus for real rather than know about Jesus.
Hey Sonny, why does it matter? God predetermined for me to believe in Universal Atonement, so what's the big deal? You don't want me to choose to change my mind do you?
Romans 9:21-23 " Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"
You are absolutely correct! The best the Calvinist can do is jeer at the proposition (as some of your commenters do) because, based on their philosophy, they literally cannot refute it lest they spit in the face of their own man-centered formulation of “the gospel”
Our theology must conform to reality. Particular atonement does not...it's a more philosophical interpretation than realistic. The Bible is completely realistic and practical. Our God is a practical God. I was particularly disappointed at Dr Hernandez towards the end though. He is on dangerous ground.
Great debate Dr Brown. I've always enjoyed listening to you through the years. You've always been very gracious no matter who you're talking to. I've noticed a pattern with believers like Hernandez. They depart from the plain reading of scripture by resorting to a deconstructionist framework. With almost every scripture he voiced, he also provided the greek as well, with the clear belief that this would lend weight to his argument. Not only that, but breaking the scriptures apart word by word, and using rigid grammatical rules - present participle, passive etc is in my opinion a cold, analytical, and ultimately foolish way of drawing meaning from God's Word, and is often used as a method to distort the message. I'm always weary of people who are too quick to answer, especially ones who clearly live in a systematic bubble. Forgive me if I sound frustrated, but listening to Dr Hernandez was very tiring. As always, it was great seeing you exemplify Christ's character.
This is good thinking, Robert (I think). Had Jesus appeared to everyone the way that He did to Saul of Tarsus, a lot more people would be saved. So there we see choice at work. I think choice comes in when the strength of God's manifestation and conviction either meets or exceeds the hardness of a person's heart. Paul and the Sanhedrin had gotten to a point of 10, and God gave Paul a ten-level manifestation, but the Sanhedrin maybe a 7 or 8. That's how I figure it, anyway. BUT ROBERT, PLEASE EXPLAIN ABOUT CHANCE. I don't know what you mean by that.
Dr Sonny what a disgrace. "Dr Brown you are my enemy, but I love you" " You will never be safe because you are a non Calvinist believer" Mr Brown it is either you believe in my Calvinism or I condemn you to hell" "oh actually you do not have to believe in Jesus in order to be save, but you need to believe me and my Calvinist believes" Bottom line Dr Brown is that Sonny has a Dr degree in something, but has not a bit of the gift of discernment as he can not see in you any fruit of the Holly Spirit, he can not see Jesus in you. The fruits that Sonny showed to all of us only help me to go farther away from that cult "Calvinism" Thanks my beloved brother Dr Brown for being so clear, humble and enlightened
Agreed, it broke my heart hearing someone who confesses Jesus as Lord say “Jesus does not love everyone”. How is this philosophy in any way helpful to the cause of the gospel? Do we not hear this message kind of incendiary language in our culture today? The true gospel is, if you believe on Christ, you will be saved and if you reject Him, you will be damned. That has been offensive enough over the centuries to cost many believers their lives. The import of the idea of limiting the effectiveness of Christ’s death on the cross is of no use to the gospel. Quite the contrary, it is an insult the nature of and fundamental character of God as it has been revealed in scripture.
Dr. Brown's question: Are you saying that John 3:16 means the elect when nowhere in the Gospel is the word world used in that way. Sonny: "That's your interpretation, not mine. I would argue that John 3:16 is specifically referring to the elect." ?? Is that not what Dr. Brown just said ?? Sonny claims that John 1:29 refers to the elect but gives no grammatical basis for that interpretation.Then he throws a little bit of Greek - to show he's smart? - but he offers no explanation at all on how it supports his position rather than Dr. Brown's. First, "believes" in Greek is a participle, actually a present participle active, and can be translated as "whosoever is believing in Him." So, my question is, how does that participle lead to an interpretation that only the elect are considered in John 3:16? Hernandez says nothing to that point. Second, does the verse tell us who are those believing? I think it does. It is "whosoever" or "anyone" from out of the "world," the "world" referring to the creation as fallen, specifically men as sinners. Therefore, anyone from among men as sinner who believe will not perish but have eternal life. Hernandez doesn't really know what he's talking about. As someone who knows Greek says hearing Hernandez, "he doesn’t offer any linguistic proof of his position. The Greek words, verb tenses, and syntax neither confirm nor deny his view; they’re just there to demonstrate he can quote bible bilingually-which’ll impress the superficial, but proves nothing." Two final points: - Dr. Brown shows that Hernandez is adding to the Bible based on his Calvinist Reformed theology. - Btw, the moderator is not too swift.
Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel. God divorced the house of Israel in Jeremiah 3:8 and the new covenant is mentioned in Jeremiah 31. Now, since God divorced Israel and wants to call them back as the bride either Israel or God have to die in order to release Israel from the law of divorce which does not allow remarriage. God Himself came and died for the lost sheep of Israel (to release them from the law of divorcement) , and included in the potential atonement are ANYONE who wants to be grafted in by faith.
Overall it's particular atonement. My sheep hear my voice. And even in the other fold. All in John 10. But universally unknown who exactly is predestined but in the same manner you shall know them by their fruits.
I grew up an Arminian but based on the bible I'm now a Calvinist. Dr. Sonny Hernandez, dropped to ball a number of times. If I was him for one I would of been pressing Dr. Brown very strongly on the foreknowledge of God because universal atonement makes no sense in light of the foreknowledge of God. Why would Christ die for someone that He knows will and must end up in Hell and that it can't be otherwise. I believe Arminians are also saved as well.
I used to be a Calvinist. I am not anymore (for good and true reasons). I just do not understand why Calvinists care so much about every Christian agreeing with their theology. Truth is truth, and we should all pursue it, but *IF we disagree,* this underhanded shaming and condemnation is.... totally tragic. And it DOES hurt both the body of Christ and the individual Christian lives of many seeking life with Him.
when you use philosophies of man to interpret the Scripture of God you are in a CULT and arrogantly submitting to and seeking the praise of MAN not God, you trust man for your doctrine not the Holy Spirit and thus in your DISBELIEF you submit to the vain influence and approval and easy, prepackaged, unbelieving explanations of devils not GOD: Catholics have the bible _as viewed by the_ *Catechism* , Calvinists by the writing of Calvin, Lutherans by the writing of Luther, Jehovah's Witnesses by the writing of the Watch Tower Society, Mormon by Joseph Smith, 7th day Adventists by Ellen White and Jews by Talmud... Christians use the bible a stand alone book... you either use the bible and it alone is the TRUTH by which we are sanctified or you look for the non-sense explanations of men.. like Calvin's "all without exception" and the rest of his vain philosophy.
@@inTruthbyGrace I agree. The big issue with the devoted calvinists is they don't realize... Calvinism is supposed to be a theological (soteriological) doctrine... not a religion itself. If they would just discuss their differences with genuine respect and humility toward another viewpoint, I'd have no issue with them. I'd still firmly disagree and refute it with scripture. But it's the way they bombard others with condescension, pride, name-calling, and other shameful, non-loving behaviors. It's a shame to see. I feel like people are moving away more and more from Calvinism, and they're becoming irked by the very GOOD arguments against them. And they have no other response except "you must not be a true believer if you can't get that Calvinism is true". It's just absurd.
Supercurio, 'Election and Predestination' is indeed a biblical doctrine because it is in the scriptures... However John Calvin failed to understand the entirety of this doctrine.... He had known half of it only and added his own understanding to this doctrine of 'Election and Predestination'.... So, Calvinism is '''''TRUTH MIXED WITH LIES''''' and it is more dangerous than lies alone.... I have asked several Calvinists this question, which none of them were able to answer, because it was not taught by John Calvin who himself did not know the answer.... My Question : How did God Choose those whom He will save? Surely God have some basis for His choice.... He did not just pick them at random.... The Answer is: Of course God choose His own children... It is in the scriptures that there are two groups of people in this world, 'The Sheep and the goats' or 'The Wheat and the Tares'.... In the Parable of 'The wheat and Tares', Jesus Himself explained who are these two groups of people, and where did they come from... The 'Sheep or Wheat' are the true children of God, and they will be saved... The 'goats or tares' are of the devil and they are damned..... The Sheep or Wheat are the True children of God not only by creation but by HEREDITY.... I CAN PROVE THIS TO YOU IF YOU ARE INTERESTED.... The Sheep inherited the character of God, The goats inherited the character of the devil..... After the Fall of Adam and Eve, All the children of God are affected and inherited the fallen nature of Adam and Eve, they did not inherit the sin but the sinful nature.... That's why Jesus came to give His life for ransom to save the Elect.... (hope this clarifies you) The elects were fallen and they need to be saved.... There is no OSAS in the scriptures, it is the wrong understanding of John Calvin... All the elect will definitely be saved, not one will be lost.... John 17:12(KJV) ''While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the '''son of perdition'''; that the scripture might be fulfilled.'' (the son of perdition is Judas, he is not the child of God, but the son of perdition, a goat) Example of Goats : Cain, Judas, some of the pharisees, pharaoh in the time of Moses. Example of Sheep : Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, The apostles except Judas.... NOTE : The difference between the Sheep and the goats.... The Sheep though they are in the fallen state, they still love God and desire to please God, Not the goats, they don't love God but only their selves... (all of us are in fallen state; in sinful nature... but some love God and desire to please God, while others don't love God and don't desire to please God) Calvin's TOTAL DEPRAVITY is a false teaching..... The elect are NOT totally evil, but totally HELPLESS to overcome sin.... That's why we need Jesus Christ to save us, and we need to hear the true gospel because even though we are chosen, we are not aware of the gospel of Jesus Christ, unless we hear it from those who were sent to preach.... Look at Cain, he has no respect to God, he faced God with anger and blamed God for his sin of killing Abel.... How about John 3:16 ? John 3:16(NIV) ''For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.'' ''Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life''==>>Only the Elect will believe because they are the True Children of God and Have the character of God.... The goats are of the devil, they hate God and don't have the ability to repent... Look at Judas, he prefer to hang himself than to repent of what he has done.... ''Go unto all the world and preach the gospel to all creatures''==>>Only the Sheep will believe the gospel and repent..... Thanks for reading....
@@52RGD Psalm 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple" Yep, it's God who chooses!
Dr. Brown is a bully and wanted to go all over the place. Sonny was willing to answer any question and all Dr. Brown wanted to do is railroad Sonny. You could tell Dr. Brown was getting frustrated that DR. Hernandez had sound, exegetical arguments.
Ιλασμος..doesn't mean WRATH..Ιt's sin-offering, atonement, sacrifice, forgivness., . Christ gave Himself as our sin-offering..our atonement, our sacrificial lamb.. 1John 2:2 ... Also.. MANY are called..few will enter..
"I only came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel." ~Jesus Christ in Matthew 15:24 "Redemption was only for those who sinned under the first covenant" ~Hebrews 9:15 "Jesus came only to redeem those under the (Old Covenant) law." ~Galatians 4:5 "Where there is no (Old Covenant) law, sin is not taken into account." ~Romans 5:13 "The adoption into Sonship, the glory, the Covenants (both Old & New), the giving of the law, the worship and the promises only belonged to (ancient) Israelites." ~Romans 9:4
Dr.Brown did a great job! Honestly don’t know if I’d be able to keep my cool like that. I know this was years ago but still have to through it out there, the Moderator did a horrible job !
we have the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit to lead and teaches us everything about the will of the Father. When i became a born-again Christian follower of Christ, the Holy Spirit has been and always been my teacher. If someone like Hernandez, look at the redemptive work of God through our Lord Jesus, through the lenses of Calvinism theory, of course they will see and interpret God who chooses whom he shows mercy! Wow, what kind of God is that?! They should delete the word "ALL" in John 3:16. How cruel?! You are in effect saying, "good for me i grew up in bible believing family or in America where bible is everywhere. Sorry for you, you live in Afghanistan or China where bible is not allowed therefore you are not save and God doesn't love you!" stk...stk... his God is Calvin and not our merciful gracious just God!!!!! Way to go Dr. Brown, expose their wickedness!!!
I am sorry,but, in my view, Dr Sonny Hernandez and his theology makes NO sense whatsoever. Dr Brown ->what you are saying is truth and God's word backs it up 100%! The other guys views are completely ridiculous and confusing and you'd have to want to make the verses say other than what they are really saying to see his point at all. His view sounds like a private interpretation to me. I'm sorry but i was laughing as he tried to explain himself becos it made no sense. Forgive me. I'll be praying for him. You are a very patient man Dr Brown. TY for studying to show yourself approved unto God.
In Sonny's opening statement he clearly contends that those who do not believe as he does are not saved, they are not genuine Christians. His opening statement just shows how closed is his mind.
Sonny Hernandez is a coward! His 2017 debate with Dan Barker is not available on RU-vid anymore. I am guessing he deleted it because Dan Barker took him to school. Also, his radio debate in 2018 with Dr. Michael Shermer is not available on RU-vid anymore either. I am guessing he deleted it because Dr. Shermer obliterated him during this debate! Why doesn't someone ask him where these debates are? People should challenge him to upload these debates so everyone can see who he really is and what he is all about.
1:03:36 "they are given a message."That's the point . The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.. mans will is not the power. It's God's will and God's choice
Personally I think it’s both and it’s something that we can’t understand, it’s the same as the cross we see man’s will what was to do evil and Gods will that was to redeem sinners.
Sonny CANNOT accept the simple reading of the texts. Every single time he speaks, I cringe inside because of the massive amount of Deterministic- Calvinist-baggage he excessively overloads on each passage. Then his pride and pseudo-theological confidence keeps him bound in his thinking.
That moderator, no offense, did a horrible job. Hands down. Please never this moderator again. Especially when brown is „on topic“ and the moderator claiming dr. Brown is not on the topic. This was wasted potential, a good moderator could have gotten more out of the debate, granting more freedom to the debater at the right moment and letting them steer the conversation to where it gets exciting (and clarifying). Few times Dr. Brown was getting right on the money with his questions, sadly the moderator maybe due to bias or inexperience, prevented the dialogue to get better. I would like to see the two gentleman debate each other a second time, but with a better moderator. But honestly I don’t think a moderator is a necessity, they could just have a 1-2 hour long conversation and I’m sure it would be a great exchange. Come on Dr. Brown, where is Round 2? :)
The Gospel is not understood to those who believe in men having to put their abilities to elect God above God's gift is probably not part of the elect. Sadly, but pray that the Gospel is revealed to them by God's will.
How blessed is the man that doesn't hide truth through a false humility just to be honored before men. True disciples of Christ never appease to mens emotions when presenting Truth. Christ didn't, neither do his disciples.
God put Pharoah in his position just like judas.but GOd did Not force either one to do that evil,but allows mens free choice an uses thier evilness for GOOD. but God never uses a man that trusts and believe in Him.
Whoever he died for will be saved. He perfected all whom he died for by one sacrifice. So either the elect only or all will be saved (universalism). Jesus did not make us "saveable"- he saved!!!
It's so sad how Calvinism blinds people to the scriptures to the point they reject the truth of God if Calvinist don't believe that Jesus died for all and that he doesn't love all then they have another jesus and the only gospel the good news that saves is according to the scriptures Christ died for the ungodly that's everyone
Using the Calvinist logic, you can't ever believe a word they say about anything because they can't say for a fact that they weren't predestined to be a liar.
Dr Brown you are a Good fearing man and a decent person, I prayer blessings in your life and your family , favor Marcy and love shower you always and forever in THE NIGHTY NAME OF JESUS CHRIST AMEN👏
If God draws someone, than nothing can stop it... Romans 11 29. For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call. Romans 9 11. For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls;
