Debate: Why Does Racial Inequality Persist? 

What I love about this debate is the respect and honesty the both have from one another. Much love to my fellow primates.

what if all right-left exchanges were this fruitful and respectful?

We know from science that the most important time for human social development is between 0 to 4 years old. What is happening at that age to young black people? Until we talk about that nothing will change.

The argument that states African Americans are not responsible for their choices, also suggests the oppressors were not responsible for the actions that repressed African Americans.

Usmani's argument around blameworthiness would absolve the Nazis of any blame, as a group, absolve the slaveowners, and racists of today of any blame, absolve those of us who are not sympathetic to racial barriers to modern blacks, etc. In short, it explains away too much.

this is somewhat of a nitpick, but I believe it was Pierre Bourdieu who first coined the term "social capital" in Outline of a Theory of Practice, which came out in 1972.

I click like as soon as Glenn says "turrible." ;-)

Excellent, nuanced and principled discussion.

There's a serious flaw, which Glenn alluded to, in Adaner's thought experiment at 42:24 about the hypothetical Asian and black student. He imagines the two distributions of responses to more or less benevolent environments, and concludes that the disparate outcomes are predictable and inevitable on the group level. This neglects all the feedback one receives from outside one's "cultural universe" and the rewarded actions within it. Not least is the exacting feedback from reality, in which one's income, security, life satisfaction, etc. are substantially influenced by one's own efforts and decisions. If one's cultural reward system is observably leading to poor outcomes, this is feedback as well! Put most concisely, a theory which imagines that people are obliged by their cultures to behave in certain ways is an overly narrow conception of the feedback to which people can respond. External social influences and harsh reality remind us what needs to change.

38:58 I'm fat.. I can blame my obesity on culture, upbringing, advertising and ready access to junk food.. Or I can analyze my own behavior apply normative values to them and attempt to modify them... Which of these two approaches do you think will benefit me the most? Choosing to not 'blame' people for there negative behaviors, even if an 'average moral observer would do them too' seems to me more likely to keep them subjugated to those behaviors rather than encourage them to change. A bit of fat shaming (proportional and with charity) is a good thing, otherwise we do not encourage individual behavior change.

3 objections for Adanar that Glenn didn't make: 1) aren't we enabling bigotry by normalizing segregation by racial identity in both the formulation of the problem and the solution? Let's not cause unnecessary division but solve national problems as a nation, regardless of what the people affected by or contributing to the problem look like. 2) can't a group's behavior be a rational cause of discrimination towards that group? Police are more cautious around men than women, for example, without being sexist or irrational in light of the behavior of men vs women. 3) can't all arrows in the clarification at 34:43 be bidirectional, and isn't a vertical link between inherited inequality and discrimination also missing?

1:02:55 "Structural Racism....it is typically used to call attention to the fact that it's not simply present day discrimination. Glenn uses the term bias. It's not simply that......that is unjust but also the fact that African-Americans on average in a subordinate place in American Society. That they inherit certain inequalities and that too is unjust."

Minute 127: I don’t see the different evaluations (with respect to moral agency) between group and individual. It’s as if he’s suggesting “together they are weak.”

There is something problematic with the concepts of praise and blame brought into this by Adaner (khoshvaghtam), which resembles positive and negative reinforcement of behaviour in the field of psychology. To achieve behaviour change, rather than resorting to behaviourist theory, in psychology we would rather refer to the difference between culpability (i.e. guilt, the ability to feel bad about oneself, which stifles you) and responsability (the ability to respond constructively to a situation, which inspires you). Notice one is not the opposite of the other, as the latin roots of the words show they are just qualitatively different. And so, I hear Glenn saying I'm not trying to induce culpability in the community, rather "response ability", and that means the community itslef chosing consciously another path, different cultural norms. I've watch our native canadian population exploding onto the scene up here, and they aren't doing it by "combating systemic racism" or mulling over the past and requesting affirmative action, they are simply encouraging their kids and each other to chose a path that leads to succes in the society. Two brillant dudes I gotta say.

This is a great discussion. Thanks to all involved in making this happen and producing the video.

Adaner seems to suggest that the only viable group to consider, above the level of the individual, is race. Is he completely ignoring culture? Is he ignoring the possibility that the specific local culture of many young AA men in poor, urban enclaves may produce behaviors that are not generalized into the overall AA population?

Our current society is the best "hypothetical moral appraiser," with the appraised value being calculated not only by monetary wealth, but any other tangible value one contrutes to society. People of all races have an opportunity to do well or poorly. People are never going to have an equal start. Society tends to praise someone who starts with nothing and builds a valuable life; vs someone who has many advantages to start and manages an only average contribution to society.

Would like to know if there is a study of other groups of slaves in history and how the differences or influences of culture vs selective environmental pressure had on those populations.

46:01 "reasonably" 'when someone asks me to be reasonable I reach for my luger'.. The term "reasonably" is irrevocably muddy.

Did Dr. Usmani type up his opening rebuttal WHILE Dr. Loury was giving his opening remark?!

Far be it from me to critique Dr Loury but I think he misses the opportunity to note the reciprocal or feedback relationship between individuals and culture. Culture doesn't merely work on the individual in a one-way exchange--the individual's behaviors also affect the culture. Cultural mores are reified in individual behaviors and those behaviors then reinforce those mores. What I take Dr Loury to be saying is ultimately no prescriptive policy or act of remediation can effect durable change until a community--both as individuals and collectively--by sheer force of will chooses to break that feedback loop. We can accept the point that a set of historical circumstances makes certain behaviors, broadly defined as maladaptive, appear rationally self-interested, but that doesn't provide much instruction on finding a way to break that cycle. Poor communities, white and black, suffering from social ills need a kind of cultural cognitive-behavioral therapy.

Bottom line - Glenn Loury was born in the City of Chicago in 1948 and developed his observations from first hand experience. My impression is that he's not dealing with persistent black-white inequality because he recognized what was needed and did it.

That was entertaining

The explanations for why Asian Americans perform better on various socio-economic measures than White Americans are the same as the ones that explain why White Americans perform better than Black Americans on the same measures.

For professors both of these guys are being quite reductive at times. Thing can be systemic while people are still held responsible for their actions. Just like the systemic in systemic racism doesn't take blame away from black people for their actions.... it just states that racism is bigger than individual white peoples actions.

Adaner seems to be conflating Glenn's exhortation to "take responsibility" with "group blame". Amy Wax and the parable of the pedestrian (available on youtube) explains why this is a mistake.

He tripppin

The hypothetical that had you been in someone else's position and taken a different action than the original actor is not a serious philosophical question. It is only OBVIOUS that the decision made by anyone is a decision largely influenced by past behavior and what factors are involved in the decision they're making in the present moment. In other words, the hypothetical is impossible because of the old axiom, "you can't step into the same river twice." When people make this argument, e.g. in their position I would have done X, is a naive argument. The better question is, given that we all know of situations where we made bad decisions, bad judgment calls, why we made them and did we learn a lesson from past bad behavior so that in the future we don't make the same mistake. For example, take this hypothetical. A person is a bad student, gets into drugs, bad company, drops out of high school, tries to get a job and winds up in a low paying job with little opportunity. The person might regret past behavior and attempt changes to improve their opportunities. These changes will be difficult because the system is set up to incentivize and disincentivize certain behavior - how could it be otherwise? But, in our country opportunities still exist for this person, but mostly by taking advantage of some educational route (going to community college, finding an apprenticeship program, etc.). But, if your community is giving you mixed messages, such as, it is systemic racism that is to blame for your predicament, you have an excuse to feel victimized and perhaps commiserate with others in your position. Or even then rationalize getting into crime to improve your social status. Perhaps you wind up in prison. Then, coming out, you've just narrowed your opportunities exponentially. MOST IMPORTANTLY, if you follow Usmani's reasoning, then just as Blacks cannot be responsible for what they've inherited culturally, than can neither white supremacists, the "system", the pedophile, etc. Sorry, Usmani, but your calculus, fails to take into account individual agency adequately and what motivates not only social status but basic individual self worth. This is the crux of the matter and is what tends to differentiate determinists (including Marxist materialists) from classical liberals who emphasize individual agency and responsibility. It's not that the latter group (which includes Loury and me) don''t recognize the power and influence of heritable traits and cultural conditioning but that we believe that THE purpose in life is to engage in the struggle to subvert the forces of determinism and to attempt to become your best self, invent your self, however you want to put it, that despite all odds, this is the heroic life. What is the alternative? Cogs in wheels, lack of agency, responsibility and the accountability that the left particularly recognizes in class/race power struggles.

Not once did Glenn challenge back on why Nigerians and other Africans and Caribbeans are doing as well as Asians and also considered model minority in a racially insensitive country. Since they are also black. And often their children who are first generation are even more successful. The effects of Culture should have been spoken about more.

I'm going to contend the problem isn't racial but cultural, not all cultures are equal, some are more adaptive than others and thus are more successful. That there are some cultures that fall upon racial lines doesn't make it racial.

Adaner’s either/or framing of the two graphics at 39:24 presents a false binary. The situation can be (and I would argue is) the combination of both graphics. In addition, it is misleading at best and extremely simplistic at worst to present “discrimination” and “inherited inequality” as the only inputs influencing “Black behavior” as he did in his “clarification.” Human behavior can not be assessed so simplistically.

By inequality you mean income inequality, then the priority of income inequality differs by ethno-cultural groups. The whole comparison is wrong.

59:30 the USA has a very different culture from all other Anglophone countries. Partly due to the prominence of independence and self reliance as governing drives and partly due to the interpretation of Classical Liberalism as a 'stand off' rather than a 'hands off' attitude. Because of the distance from the federal capital, and the irregular and inconsistent nature of state authorities, the USA has been unable to maintain a sense of cultural norms from east to west coast. The adoption of rational materialism, and the almost infinite level of cultural diversity created by the wide ranging immigrant mix has left little room for appeal to kinship and shared experience when resolving crime. Consequently the criminal processing system is industrial and mechanistic in nature. Attempts by judges to inject compassion and imagination are repeatedly exploited by the cynicism that so much social dislocation generates.

Dr. Adaner Usmani continues to say "Blame" while Glenn's talking about personal agency and responsibility. You get what you put into it. You know the negative outcomes of your behavior but continue to pursue it. You're responsible. The word 'Blame' conjures judgement by the observer.

Why is the host talking into a well?

The Democratic party and its affiliates are responsible for the breakdown of the black promise.

What about the fact that there is more of an income discrepancy between poor blacks and wealthier blacks. Than between whites and blacks?

Those cellists murder Bach at the end! Who selected that recording!

I appreciate the respect displayed in the debate. I admit, once Adaner trotted out his diagram ascribing all black behavior to past and present racism (not just past and present behavior in the whole, but only racism) it was hard for me to take him seriously. 1) That viewpoint strips all black people of the fruits of any good deeds and sacrifices made by previous black generations (or any positive views by anyone else). 2) This argues that black people are robots, which raises two, equally problematic alternatives. If black people are in no way responsible for their behavior, either 1) either white people are responsible for their behavior, therefore asserting that black people fundamentally lack capacities that would make them responsible for their behavior, which is extremely racist, or 2) All peoples actions are dictated by their past and current injustices. This includes white people, who then would also be victims of past injustice and current injustice. White would be living out their programs like anyone else. In this second case, the term "should" loses all meaning except "My programming determines that I'm made at how other people are programmed" and debates like this have no impact because people will do what they are programmed to do anyway. I imagine Adaner's going to try to imply that black people have the same capabilities as white people, but should not be held responsible for using that capability. This desperate gambit essentially claims that a person (such as Adaner Usmani), can absolve individuals of their sins and hold all individuals to account, in Godlike fashion, on the basis of group affiliation, without concern for the actual injustices or privileges that shape individual lives. This boils down to "Even though I believe humans share the same basic faculties, I am worthy to judge totally and unequally on a single dimension without regard to particulars." Really, the only coherent argument is Loury's: everyone's behavior is influenced by outside factors (including prejudice past and percent AND uncountable other influences) as well as by choice. White Americans do not get to absolve themselves of the problems that arise from disparity because we all inherited a system that played into those disparities, but neither can the black community absolve themselves of having to adopt behaviors that will advance their own well-being and that of their communities.

Though i admittedly haven't put much effort into the research, I would be curious to know if these same historical racial dynamics in America are blamed for the disparate outcomes we see in sports? Did slavery and discrimination lead black Americans toward behavioral patterns that led to them being superior athletes on average?

25:31 Here is where it gets sticky.. If I were to treat Delinquent black kids as 'my own children' that would mean interfering with the parental rights of the mothers and fathers of those kids... The recurring problems with fixing a broken culture is that 1. interference tends to make things worse (see the reservation school systems in Canada, the projects in the USA as just two examples.), 2. interference is never taken well by the interfered with population, no one wants to be told what to do, how to do it or how their way of doing things is wrong... 3. The liberal left is so deeply committed to postmodernism they refuse to believe in concepts like 'better and worse' when it comes to culture. All cultures are all equally capable of creating CEOs and Tech Geniuses in there eyes. and any attempt to alter another culture in an attempt to improve it is always meet with cries of racism, colonialism and eurocentrism.

History has held people back, as well as decisions in the present, maybe a little discrimination here and there. Done.

The sound is too poor to listen to ...

If you have to ask, you won't like the answer.

Life is not fair. Bad choices.

Genetics. Be intellectually honest and maybe we will get somewhere. It's genetics.

B85, W100 explains 99% of persistent difference.

At the end I see Glenn is not the least bit concerned (odd for an economist) about disenfranchisement but the character of individuals and they are milling about this like intellectuals do. A pointless exercise to me as I need no one to explain my people or culture to me! Who are they even talking to?

Jennifer Rivera..............she courageously stepped up to do the right thing in Rhode Island. This is after witnessing an example of what Dr. Usmani indicates as not the Community's responsibility.......poor decision making. The murder of Hector Feliciano by Charles E. Pona who a 15 year old Jennifer stepped forward to identify to police. On August 28, 1999, Jennifer Rivera, a 15-year old girl, witnessed a murder committed behind her home. At the request of a Providence police officer, Jennifer signed a statement and, later, identified Charles Pona as someone that she saw running from the murder scene. On March 1, 2000, Pona was indicted for murder and later released on bail. On May 15, 2000, White and Page [prosecutors in Whitehouse's office of Attorney General] caused a subpoena to be issued directing Jennifer to appear as a witness in Pona's trial. Two days later, Jennifer, again, expressed concern to representatives of the [Whitehouse’s] Attorney General's office about the death threats she had received. They, again, promised Jennifer that she would be safe; but, on May 21, 2000, Pona shot Jennifer to death in front of her home.” It's easy with slides but ugly, horrible and difficult in real life, Dr. Usmani.

We've spent something like $15 Trillion on the war on poverty and the poverty rate has dropped maybe 5%. Spending money on it doesn't seem to be working. At the end he mentions Sweden, Norway et al, he doesn't, however, mention the 25% VAT these countries have to fund the socialist programs. Would you be willing to spend 25% more for everything you buy? Who does that hurt the most? Not the wealthy.

Structural Racism is the racist baised are so included in the framework of the policies in society that reproduce racial disparities with out the majority of society still engaging in individual action of racism. Even MLK when he came to the North saw that the insitutional and systemic racism was adopted differently, and the effects were devastating

The only blame I can assign with 100% certainty is that the BLM movement has changed my thoughts to entertain the possibility that any black person I encounter really hates me and would like to see me dead. Thoughts I never had before. And I am a white woman born in the 50's, living in a major American city who experienced the civil rights unrest firsthand. Of course this makes me incredibly sad, but, reason shakes those thoughts from my head. Are the problems we face just a simple matter of teaching children respect and what that means at an early age? Has respect become a dirty word, thank you Marlon Brando. I think that violence is the greatest divider of people.

somebody explain to me what ending the war on drugs actually looks like? legal weed = ok....even mushrooms id say ok. but thats were it ends so whats ending the war on drugs mean? meth dispensaries ?

The bell curve is real. The end.

What Usmani leaves out of his revision of Loury's syllogism (at 38:07) is the non-sequitur between N4 and N5. Usmani omits the primary point of Glenn's position, which is that human beings do indeed have agency ("free will" is a term much in debate now), and Glenn (and thousands of other "blacks") are living examples of Usmani's failure to include this normative claim of Glenn's in his strawman version. I'm sure Glenn will make this point when it's his turn to speak again but I wanted to jump in on this point. Usmani goes on to admit my point but claim it is not in Glenn's argument. Of course it is. And to say that there is a lack of literature that makes Glenn's argument is a useless point, If Usmani would also acknowledge that among the works that take up this topic, there is, perhaps, a left/materialist bias in this work. This is not a good analytical argument, especially in light of the fact that Noble prizes in various fields of study are awarded all the time precisely because they have dissented from the common or accepted view. The example Usmani sites around 43:00 about how Asian and Black students seeking social status take an opposite approach to academic achievement due to cultural heritage is, broadly speaking, agreed on but it begs the question because, when taking this view, there would be no cultural change. The normative view used to be accepted that Blacks were genetically inferior to whites. This is no longer the case (though I'm sure some whites still believe it). But Usmani would have us believe that whites changed a primary view of black-white relations, but Blacks cannot do the same about their own status with whites vis a vis the racist legacy. I don't think Glenn would deny that the exalting of criminal behavior in black culture is a legacy of white racism, but once in the culture, pathologies take on a life of their own. For example, the normalizing of the word "nigger" in the younger black generations and the romanticizing of criminal behavior as a way to define yourself as anti-white is absurd because most black crime is committed against other blacks. So, regardless of the source of any pathology, in this case, because blacks are harming blacks (not just physically but also their social status) it is incumbent on the black community especially, to bring about a change certain aspects of their culture. There is a lot to celebrate in black culture but, unfortunately, excelling in violence and underachieving academically and thereby economically, is not one of them. It must be addressed by taking the position that individuals have agency and that the black community must stop the pathological defining of themselves as anti-white and integrate more. America IS about integration, not balkanization. If that bothers you, if you really want to hold on to your ethnic identity in America, then perhaps you should not live in the US but return to the place where that identity is stressed (i.e. in your motherland).

48:45 "average moral appraiser" there is no such thing it is the same problem as the veil of ignorance. Individuals exist and can only exist in context, the idea that "where I black boy in the ghetto I would do x or y" is absurd because I am not that theoretical person and that theoretical person can't exist as all persons are fixed in a given context.. I mean if you lived your life exactly like Hitter then you would be Hitler wouldn't you? This average appraiser is average to what? Average to WWI vets, Average to Austrians in the 20s and 30s, average to young boys who lost there fathers young, average to failed artists, average to political activists in Berlin? you get enough 'averages' in there and you are the individual you seek to judge and thus can't make a judgement.

Very good rebate. Glenn's opponent made some very good points. But he missed the biggest one. No matter who is or isn't to blame for behavior, behavior is still the problem. We cannot redistribute ourselves away from that fact.

Adaner sounds like he’s trying to convince….Glen just presents facts

I was in Compton which has large Latino community,but my black friends and Latinos tell me the Koreans and other Asians own the homes they rent. Strange.

Loury’s explanation to focus on culture only makes sense if you are a bigot. Why would black Americans if they get treated like other Americans maintain a separate collective bad black culture that spans regions, states, and cities?

Thomas Sowell covers this topic in several of his books.

33:46 past discrimination did not prevent American Jews, Asians or other minority groups from forming cultures of excellence... Also your approach seems to border on social determinism. As if cultures could only and enviably form in one given way given a set of precursors. Black rappers were NOT forced to encourage a generation young men to be criminals to disrespect authority to adore quick unearned materialism over hard work and integrity. They did so out of individual decision.

Because all men are NOT NOT NOT created equal ????? I'am not making Le chinas salary ?????

42:58 those cultural universes are not equal. One leads to sustained poverty the other to academic and economic success. One culture is Better than the Other in that respect. It does not matter how those cultures were formed, what matters is the effect those cultures have on those girls.

IQ

Let me summarize this debate. Adaner: Black people have no agency. Glen: Yes, they do.

how is this a debate, there is a simple answer for this; People aren't equal, groups of people aren't equal. Cultures will differ and produce dispirate outcomes on it's own. Racial "Equality" on the basis of equity can never be achieved without trying to *force it*. even if our laws were failproof equal - we would still not see the same outcomes. pipe dream.

There is no inequality, things are exactly like they should be. Period

Why are moderate conservatives treated as equivalent to far left ideologues? This organisation would NEVER platform someone as far to the right as this guy is to the left (i.e. an actual fascist)

Both of these men are very selective in what they use to support their assertions. This is a problem for so many reasons because even amongst us in Black America-we achieve and fail differently but always backward. A glaring disparity can be seen in the Obama administration when the housing market collapsed, white dominated institutions should have collapsed but the government bailed them out. Black Americans have been plundered for 300+ years and have NEVER SEEN aid on the scale required to rectify that situation. Glen clearly has a problem with what he believes to be “Black Culture” but that very “culture” undergirds the very fabric of this country for long enough a time as to be a considerable force to be reckoned with. This argument about criminality is old and dry because even in criminal justice systems, the administration of “justice” is discriminatory. Black Americans are not America’s problem. America is America’s problem and this whole picking apart of Black Americans is nonsense. The real question that begs to be asked is why the judicial system fails to protect the rights of its citizens equally? It absolutely doesn’t and in the current pandemic I know these men are eating their words.

Inequality exists because God did not make all human beings the same. Some people are taller than others, well some people are smarter than others. And so on and so forth.

I think Glenn Loury needs to shave his face. He's very cogent though

Love Glenn but race does come from nature.

Institutional racism is pervasive here

The first speaker is ignorant