Debating a Secret Room Item Tier List 

If you like isaac nerding you are definitely in the right place, I'm happy people liked that part cause I felt worried later that I wasted 10 mins of the video by overrating book of secrets LOL. I think I wasn't thinking ahead to what other items would end up in C and D tier for comparison, and also I had a little bit of bias since I see book of secrets a lot and I've never considered it nearly as useless as everyone else does.

That was some INTRIGUING cooking, though tbh I was more fascinated over the MissingNo discourse. I abused the D4 exploit REAL hard for my Tainted Eden completion checkmarks, but I'm not sure I'd actually subject myself to MissingNo willingly just for a couple shots at landing a busted run for a floor or two

@@luizflavioassismoura6136 You do kinda need to see it early, early enough to start using d4 exploit a lot, but I'm pretty sure it's worth it. If you are rolling entirely devil/angel items then you'll have high power consistently for each floor (or at least, you should). You can start going full quantity over quality for your items, you can take normally bad items since they'll be rerolled, so curse of the blind basically is irrelevant.

@@luizflavioassismoura6136 Given you find it early enough to start using d4 exploit a lot, you can start going all in on quantity over quality and since you'll be getting so many devil / angel items each floor it'll make your average build strong. Obviously not a very good idea if you already have some really good items though, so ig the item is a little more situational than I was saying. One of the best parts is that when you have a lot of devil / angel items you have a decent chance of rolling into goat head / eucharist which lets you d4 exploit even more.

@@luizflavioassismoura6136 do you think missingno should be changed? I think it's fine having items that basically are only four having weirdo whacky runs but there's the downside it's taking up secret room pool

FACTS. It's in my top 3 items overall. Death certificate is objectively number 1 (other than the rare bug I've had where it didn't have all the items available since it failed to generate some of the rooms, but I don't seriously put any weight into that), and R key I think is an easy number 2 just because it's good in all situations and gives you such a headstart that you would have to throw hard to lose. Number 3 and onwards is when I feel there is actual competition between the items and I think glitched crown is at the top of that list.

You can't take death certificate from the death certificate area. TRASH ITEM

But with death cert you can get Isaac’s heart OR lemon party!

@@Noob_Clan713or compound 🔥🔥

ok?

you all forget about the withard. its double tears

THANK YOU LOL

@@turtier dw bro I could tell exactly what you were going through in that moment, I've had the exact same feeling before

I mean we did only just start these lists recently. Honestly I didn't expect these videos to get any views at all so I'm already quite happy with how the character buff vid is doing lol.

@@turtierthe lists may be long in watchtime but you guys are really entertaining together to hear going back and forth about items

Yeah I liked that discussion for clear rune and blank card too. I expected clear rune to be better but after talking about it, it made more sense that blank card is better.

Yeah, it'll only take us 3 hours ez

When nobody got me, i know book of secrets still got me

I don't remember if I said it in the video but yeah I did know about this. It's saved me once before on a run where I forgot a knife piece. Cracked orb has such high utility.

It depends on the person. I stand very very close to the item and move into it when I see the item that comes right before it in the chain. But I do believe that everyone can find a consistent setup, it didn't take me very long practicing to get mine, so yeah I don't think missing the item is really much of a downside at all.

I actually didn't know this! I personally never use save/exit for stuff like this, so I'm not sure if I'd have factored this in even if I knew about it, especially since this looks like an unintended bug (I treat d4 exploit differently because kilburn definitely knew about it, probably before even working on repentance, and still chose not to fix it, but I feel this echo chamber bug is something that he would have fixed but didn't have time for).

Yeah I was looking for if the wiki said that about inner child and somehow missed it until after the recording LOL.

Yeah, I personally value consistency a lot, so the chance you get an instant win glitch item doesn't make up for the fact that you can get an instant loss glitch item imo. Even besides that, I do feel like on average tmtrainer will screw you over more than it gives a free win. I feel like there are more negative effects that are impactful enough that you lose, even if you already have good items. There's also a lot of glitch items that just do nothing so sometimes you just fall behind the power curve because of that and die despite nothing negative happening. You also need to kind of stop rolling the dice on more glitch items as soon as you get 1 really busted one and hope that it's enough for the rest of the run. Overall just way too much rng and imo it's unlikely to be in your favour. This all being said, idk where I'd rate damocles. It's a lot more predictable and controllable than tmtrainer, but it has the same issue of potentially ending runs instantly. Although I do think damocles is more likely to help you win than it is to kill you, I still can't deny that it's the 2nd least consistent item in the game, so I might have to rank it low regardless.

@@turtier Oh absolutely, was never arguing "For" TmTrainer. I think it would've been a lot better if it's effects were even remotely explainable because as it standsits about 80% "Do Nothing" 20% split evenly between auto-lose and auto-win. The item creates other items that entirely impossible to comprehend, and I think maybe it would be better if it didn't corrupt literally every future item. Like maybe only 1/2? 75%? I don't know what would be a good number to keep in theme w/ the item but it's a quality 0 item for a reason that usually results in a loss unless it's picked up very late into an already overpowered run.

@@OldandAbandonedHarcorte I love tmtrainer as a funny joke item but I do find it unfortunate that Eden can start with it. Because tmtrainer start is either don't take items and then die since you are underpowered or you risk taking items and you can instantly lose if you are unlucky. My friend once had an item that spawned corpse enemies as the first glitch item and they died instantly. Tmtrainer Eden start is almost all luck and that's really unfortunate. I would also think it's weird if Eden had one specific item they couldn't start with though. I do like your suggestion that it only glitches some items, 50% would be good. The item would still be fun and chaotic but Eden start would be less rng. Would be very difficult, but a good player can still win with 50% items (that's basically what old tlaz was LOL).

I find pause buffering easier and faster actually, but after recording this video I tried practicing without pause buffering and it only took me like 5 minutes or something to be completely consistent. So yeah pause buffering definitely isn't necessary.

There's quite a few common items that reroll into something crazy. Blood bag into brimstone, toothpicks into sacred heart, bar of soap into nancy bombs which is relevant because nancy bombs rerolls into rock bottom, key piece 1 becomes deaths touch, and yeah knife piece 1 into mega mush like you said.

@@turtier definitely. I’d also argue that ventricle razor and blue map are pretty common as well I love that you mentioned bar of soap, that and meat cleaver are the only 2 double spindown that I remembered

@@victorkao1472 I did know bot fly became death certificate but I didn't know meat cleaver became bot fly! Ventricle razor into tech x is an amazing one that I didn't know about. Blue map into 20/20 isn't as crazy but it's still very good. Speaking of shop items, sharp key into genesis is one that I remember. Genesis isn't useful if spindown already got you some crazy items, but if you find this early then it's definitely worth because d4 bug abused genesis is an instant win.

Tbf, other items being better doesn't make book of secrets useless in general. Especially since you're talking about a 2 item combo. That being said, yeah the discussion is funny lol. I didn't realise I had such a random affinity for book of secrets until then. At least I realised as the list filled out LOL.

Sure, chaos is definitely S tier in some runs. But it's outright detrimental and F tier in others. I've had so many runs where it gives me nothing but treasure room, boss, and shop items. If I didn't have it, I might have got brimstone / sacred heart, but I'll never know because the angel item was breakfast. Also, I think curse of the blind is way scarier when you have chaos. It's rare, but you could pick up tmtrainer and you can't take items the rest of the run. I usually can justify taking blind items, but I can't justify it for chaos (for streaks, at least). So I'm getting less items over the course of the run because of curse of the blind and also I lose the ability to reroll beggar payouts into guaranteed secret room items. I really do think chaos is only a good idea to take on runs that have a lot of shop synergy, in that case it's really good.

@@turtier Hear me out,i Think chaos is a item you take if you know you can get way more items to show up Since you can find anything anywhere the more you find the more you are rewarded, also i just feel like with a bit of min maxing you always get a good run with chaos, by using beggars shop opening chests full clear the reward is always decent or really good,the only execeptions i can get is curse of the blind as you said or a not many unlocks file cuz then you actually have more chance to get a lot of mid to trash items then a good one,it feels like the more unlocks you got the better for chaos.

@@yorachi4543 Yeah I agree, that's why I said it's good with items that synergies with the shop. I'm a crazy minmaxer, I manage to force a lot of extra devil / angel / secret room items in many runs and chaos does usually mean I get much less. It's definitely a "quantity over quality" sort of item. I might try doing the math for chaos at some point, this is one of the items where I honestly am unsure if my average run with it is better or worse than normal. That's why I just said it was a side grade in the vid, I'm not confident about judging it in either direction until I do more research. I think I slightly lean on downgrade purely because of curse of the blind which is why I only take it for fun most the time.

It is true that you will have to pass on good items sometimes. But that's if they share a pedestal with an even better item... so it actually doesn't matter at all because the items you are getting are enough on their own, you don't need literally every S tier item, you just need 1-2 really. The absolute highs of glitched crown are capped, but the average glitched crown run is still far above the power curve, you've won anyway and this will happen more consistently than most other items, which is why it's easy best item for me (besides death cert and R key, which are a different level of crazy).

@@turtier yea, especially since your guy's discussion is about winning, but I always feel like I have less fun bc I miss out on some of the weirder synergies bc I have less items. Just surprised that point wasn't brought up.

Conversely, I don't see a reason why you should NOT pick it up. If you get a bad setup with it, you can just turn yourself back in 1 room. D4 exploit makes it incredibly abusable too. It does nuke your health which makes it harder to justify sometimes but it's worth it a lot of the time.

​@@turtier I used it once and it doesnt Pay out with nothing. I also used it without knowing what it doing On my god run in gehenna. I died trying to charge it

@@kuchnia846 I think that only happened because, as you said, you didn't know what it did. When you know what it does you can put in a slight level of prep that makes it extremely unlikely to actually die while trying to charge it. The first black heart will take out or make a lot of rooms much easier. You can leave behind any combat card such as empress as backup in case your build really sucks. You can usually charge it with a leftover battery on the floor. You can bomb out of a problematic room and find an easier one to clear. You can leave behind a single soul heart on the floor to pick up as a buffer in case the build really sucks. Usually I don't actually need any of these because the build can handle a single room, but this works if it can't. It's quite often though that I get something fairly strong. I'd say it's much riskier on womb and later tho.

You need to change your thinking around it. If you can tap into that potential then it's great. Even if it's just something small. And trust me, there is almost always something to use it with, unless you get it extremely late (like one of the last floors).

@@turtier 95% of the time d inf (d6) and glitched crown are simply better, rock bottom usually doesnt solve an issue of a bad run but just makes an already good run better and I feel like the best items in the game by definition should be able to fix bad runs

@@haellm9192 I definitely do agree that glitched crown is better. I think you are underrating rock bottom a bit though. I've definitely had runs that were trash and picking up rock bottom turned me OP very fast. It synergies with such a large number of items or effects and often in completely overpowered ways. I would consider the worst case scenario for rock bottom to be getting permanent stat buffs from cards and even that is already quite a good effect that will significantly help weak runs. Technically the real worst case scenario is not even getting cards to use, but I honestly think the amount of runs that get literally nothing out of rock bottom would be so low that you'd have to then be fair and say that there are also runs where glitched crown and dinfinity just give you really bad items constantly. Possible but very unlikely to the point of not being relevant imo.

@@turtier to me, rock bottom maybe saved my run once - I had 0 dmg ups into depths 1, found red stew in the shop and rock bottom in the secret room. Outside of that I usually tend to find rock bottom only when the run is already really good and doesnt really need much to beat any boss

@@haellm9192 If you've only found it when the run is already good, then any item in that situation will feel like it's just a win-more item and not a standalone powerhouse. Maybe try starting some runs with rock bottom (if you want to be fair, give it to yourself when you enter the first item room rather than taking that item). Maybe pick a more difficult character that you don't expect to win as much with. See how much you win, I'm almost certain that it'll be much higher than what you usually get. You will get situations like the red stew one quite a lot I think.