Mohan “Launders” Govindasamy and Daniel “Tafokints” Lee explore the ongoing debate between HitBox, developers of the Smash Box, and Aziz "Hax" Al-Yami, who left the team to create his own Melee controller, the B0XX.
Shoutouts to this video for putting a pretty reasonable and mature perspective out there. I can appreciate taking a fairly neutral stance on these things. While I'm very clearly for Hax$ over Hitbox, I like that you aren't taking sides so much as discussing what needs to and should happen.
mob mentality really is bad for the melee community because we already have enough trouble trying to overcome the reputation of being an exclusive/elitist cool kids club
imo hax was defending himself from the articles written about him, hence the video being made. hax seems passionate about the product, and the community could use competition in the smashbox market, so having both parties always trying to compete for a better product is good consumer-wise. there shouldnt be drama about this, just let both sides build their product and get what you want.
I have seen both perspectives. You can read my ideas if you don't want to waste more than 1 hours and 40 minutes watching all 4 videos. You can either wait and fund Hax$'s kickstarter and get the best ergonomic melee controller possible with the B0XX. Or you can wait for the 2nd layout revision of the Smashbox to be released and hope it has a better layout than the original Marvel v Capcom 'melee' layout. B0XX: 3.33 out of 5 5 out of 5 Ergonomics and Design: Full time competitive melee player at (power level > armada) who got thumb arthritis and will put as much work as needed to create a painless ergonomic controller that can be played on at (power level > armada) by someone with thumb arthritis while still being tournament legal. 4 out of 5 Engineering: Engineering students who have experience with making melee controllers with arcade buttons. 1 out of 5 Production: All we no as of now is that Hax$ wants the price to be cheap and believes in good ethics. He will also have a Kickstarter. Marvel v Capcom 'melee' Smash box: 3 out of 5 (this rating may be understated due to the fact that the Smash Box has a nunchuck port to ensure tournament legality) 2 out of 5 Ergonomic and Design: Gravy is the competitive melee player who helped the Hitbox Team convert their Marvel v Capcom layout to a Melee arcade box layout. Gravy says that Alyssa has no connection to the smash box design. 3 out of 5 Engineering: Hitbox team who have experience with making arcade controllers for Marvel v Capcom. Seeking to sell their product to supply for the melee community's arcade box demand. 4 out of 5 Manufacturing: Do not have the means to test or produce new layouts. However, they have the means to mass produce with the intent of making a reasonable profit off of their investment.
The Gamecube controller isn't so great? Are you kidding me? When was the last time you saw such an ergonomic button layout. Smashbox gets results. B0XX gets results. The Gamecube controller breaks the rules. You can keep your statistics. I prefer the arthritis.
Thank you Tafo for helping people understand that competition is GOOD. The real group to win when these two products go against each other is not Hitbox or Team Hax but _us,_ the consumers.
500 hours to master tech skill? That's full time for about 3 months and a half. Tafo is definitely right. If you're putting in that much work on ANY controller you're success is definitely more skewed towards your sheer work ethic then any type of advantage the controller gives you.
After watching Hax and Dustin's back-and-forth, I gotta go with Hax. Dustin clearly doesn't know the game like Hax does, and he refuses to listen to criticism.
Impressed with tafo's better speaking abilities in this one. Until very recently, he was saying everything like a question, using weird hand gestures, and making that weird "tafo face" (eyes closed with open mouth frown) almost constantly. This one seems a lot more natural, good job dude.
this discussion is way to diplomatic. Anyone trying to create a product for any community is looking to make money period. Looking to make money is not morally wrong releasing a product while knowing it is incomplete or not well designed is. this is a no brainer. just watch the video hax created to see real conversations that took place proving that if you invest or in or purchase the smash box you just threw your money away.
TheBimmster And what I hate about Gravy's video is he had all this information that they didnt present in their article or Dustin's vid. I asked him why it was withheld and got no response. I don't doubt Hax lacks knowing what it takes in actual constructiion, but Smashbox is undoubtedly shady as shit. That said, Hax should reveal who tried to take a picture of his B0XX at Summit if he hasn't already.
TheBimmster >this discussion is too diplomatic because they give the side i dont like a fighting chance >just watch the video i agree with and ignore the other side that i dont like im team b0xx and at the end of the day we all should be, but not wanting to give a fair trial for both sides because of feefees makes you genuinely stupid.
I don't understand the danger of introducing fight sticks for Melee. Maybe - and this will be shocking for some - a controller that is over 15 years old isn't the best way to play the game. Maybe the number of top players dealing with life-changing hand and wrist injuries is glaring proof of that.
You sir Moose, win the logic award. All these morons making a big deal out of some people trying to introduce a product to use for a game you love, as a reasonable alternative to your archaic controller is ridiculous. Guess what, if you don't like it then DON'T BUY IT! Simple as that nothing more to be said, stop embarrassing your community and making yourselves look like children.
Sad to see tafo misstep with his stance here. He really sweeps the money side of things under the rug and I think that he is being foolish. It is so obvious that hax's motivations are pure and good. Please support hax people, this is his dream.
Hax has a point on the ergonomics of the HitBox, it does seems kind of weird to make some motions, I like the idea of a ergonomic controller since I need my hands not to be fucked up for my career and the B0XX is looking better in that aspect, however I'm still not full into the analog inputs yet, I want it to be even if they are going to be legal, like, thinking about the small frame difference that leffen showed, when you think about fox dash dancing into JC shine, it will impact way more... so, fuck.
Everyone thinking that there is real profit to be made is either very young or very inexperienced in the business world. Let me quickly break it down for everyone: An average gross profit margin (GPM) for a high-end keyboard is around 30-40%. If you factor in the difficulty of starting, producing a smaller volume, and doing everything from a starter business perspective, your'e looking a GPM of 30% or less for either of the boxes. At an absurd $160 per units would net you less than $48 of profit per unit. You would need to sell well over 2000+ units to gross 100,000 in a year. So now that there is two boxes, this means 3-5 thousand people minimum would have to buy a box. Which is probably already way higher than anyone should expect. On top of that the customer lifetime value (CLV) has to be well under 50%. CLV basically refers to the likelihood of a customer continuing to purchase from a company. So even with the the best case scenario of one party making 100,000 gross, they will see a decline every year. So in reality, this an incredibly large initiative with little to no chance of substantial success. The more people are involved the more the money is split. The less people, the more work and the higher chance of crippling problems along the way. So, if anything, know that all parties involved are doing this more for the community than to become rich.
Even with the issues between Hax$ vs Hitbox team, Leffen discovered that the "control stick" on the box is digital and can hit 100% speed 100% guaranteed. The Gamecube Controller can hit 100% but it's not consistent. It usually hits 98% speed. The only way to hit 100% is to buy a perfect random controller and deepen the notches in the left side and right side.
Honestly, when you think about it most of this isn't that important since we are all pretty much still using gamecube controllers and the best ways to avoid early carpul tunnel is just to take breaks from time to time.
Can I say neither? I understand why people want it, but as a controller option. I've seen a lot of videos for and against it, but it still doesn't seem right. One argument I have is that it is fact that the SmashBox/B0XX makes advanced techniques easier, heightening the metagame. It's a drastic change from what people have been used to for years. But in the instance with PP Up-Tilts in Melee, it makes a nearly impossible option, very easy and it can be done consistantly. Also, why is it not considered a Modded Controller? You are getting rid of the analog sticks, making them digital. The L/R Buttons are also made digital (important for GC Controllers on Melee) I have more thoughts, but I'll leave it here on that question.
I'm just curious to see how these products will change the meta-game especially for Smash 4. I'm not down for buying one of these immediately when I get the opportunity bc I'm happy with my fluid bidou experience on my pro-controller however if this changes the meta through newly discovered techs, I'll consider it. Bidou was the reason I bought a pro-controller to begin with.
Im not saying it absolutely will, but it possibly can if you consider that when one plays with all their fingers rather than being restricted to their thumbs, middle fingers, and index fingers, you are more free to make faster inputs across the entire controller. Since you had access to an aditional button (shoulder button) on the pro-controller compared to the GC controller, I was able to perform more advanced frame perfect tech that I couldnt do on the GC controller since I had access to that extra button. It could possibly be the same for the smash box since one is able to use all their fingers and make more input sequences.
It will not raise the ceiling at all because it simply is not possible in smash 4. You may be able to perform what you already know more adequately or consistently on a box, but it would not change the meta game at all. Even the quicker inputs in Smash 4 are completely reasonable on a gamecube controller.
Neither you or me know that. More tech is still being discovered to this day in Smash 4. I agree when you said performing certain mechanics will be easier since digital buttons are being implamented rather than a whole control stick but in terms of if this has the potential to change the meta, look at the example I mentioned earlier with the GC controller compared to the pro controller. Since I have access to an additional shoulder button, I am able to perfrom more techniques without constraint and with the smash box, since all ten fingers are spaced across the entire button layout compared to six fingers being the maximum on a GC/pro controller, in my opinion it is very possible that additional mechanics will be implamented. But neither you or me know. To say now that it won't change the meta before it is even released is not accurate. Also, yes I agree quicker inputs are reasonable on the GC controller for Sm4sh but that controller logically speaking has limits because of the lack of an extra shoulder button.
"so many people"... You really can't gravitate Likes and up votes lol. Smash box got 68k in sales. Lets see how much the b0xx gets and if they can supply lol. No one has technically backed the box, its not kick starting yet.
And now we have the frame1 controller which is the same design as the b0xx, with higher quality longer lastings buttons, remappable buttons, smaller design, a $120 and $200 option, and easily hotswappable keys.
I mean, if you look at fighting games in general, there's always other options and different products to use in competitive level? For example, in street fighter, killer instinct, etc, you can use a controller or a arcade stick. I notice in an arcade stick( well for me) it's way easier to do dragon uppercut motions, and in a controller, I sometimes accidentally input an uppercut when I do fire ball. When it comes down to it , it doesn't matter what controller or whatever you use to play a game, it comes down to who is better at the game? Idk I feel like eventually there should be other options of controllers. And maybe instead of trying to make an arcade box controller, why not try to make a controller more comfortable than a GameCube controller.
The problem that plagues all the Smash games is the addition of analog control. Every other fighting game only uses digital inputs (or at least, all those I know of), and in this sense, Melee's complexity has actually caught up to it. Although, given that occasionally, a GameCube controller will allow for a 1.0 dash input, I find it silly that the control stick is notched in such a way that it often can't be accessed, and even stupider that the game *must* take a 1.0 input for a character to dash at full speed.
His argument was that smashbox/b0xx are better but it will take work to get good with.....so it should be legal... that's retarded. No one is denying using a smashbox is hard... using a GCC to excel at melee is hard too! The point is that it's strictly better than a GCC.
Mario Ramirez He plays the game well. Furthermore, he consulted an expert on the field. His product is provably more ergonomic given the same criteria for both products. His long history and experience with the game is just further exemplary of his intentions; he knows what's desired from top players, from a technical standpoint.
I think Tafo is extremely naive if he doesn't believe there's a huge opportunity to cash in on Melee players by selling a new controller that makes everything easier.
I've ran general numbers with market viability on it, along with profit margins after factoring labor, manufacturing, advertising, and cost of goods. It's not a very good business model even selling at $200 per controller.
Thanks for the input -- It seems there is certainly a business opportunity here, but I don't think anyone is going to get rich making a smash controller. May the best controller win.
Bones0 i think youre extremely naive for thinking it will make that much money. i dont know why melee players think melee is the most popular thing on the planet but, its not. the highest pay out for a melee tournament ever was like 35k. a mortal kombat tournament not that long ago had 500k. melee doesnt make shit for money. why would everyone spend money on this box when you cant even make enough money in the community to support yourself and definitely not a family.
tafo is a bitch, he doesnt give his real opinion because he's too worried about hurting peoples feelings and then them not liking him... cause hes a bitch
Really cringe this is labelled as mature it's really easy to be so neutral, where is the discuss about what is more or less important? I can bring up one good thing and one bad thing it doesn't mean they are of equivalent importance but you guys do this so much to just be neutral about everything and then the non confrontation cult praises oh wow so mature this is so lame
If you come into the Smash community trying to make money you are dumb 1:44. Explain Smash Summit then. Those tourneys are cash grabs by the definition. lol
Most likely due to the size or irregularity. Every part of the summit process is designed to pull in more and more money without actually adding value to the event in any tangible way. I'm actually really surprised they decided not to do something during the event itself to get more money.
These guys are weird. The BOXX/Smashbox allow you to dash better than with a GC controller. Actually, that allow you to play better with ease, and you tell us that a problem? That's not a problem but an evolution. Melee is already hard to masteries and you're against a mechanic that allow you to play more easily. I can understand that switch to a GC controller to a box is hard, but I don't think that a reason to fix this "problem" or to, for example, ban the box because of that (that an example I know that they didn't do that). So maybe there is something that I didn't understand about this but if I do well its like I said earlier: these guys are weird.
Celrok production But then everyone would have to change to a box to be at the same level of advantage, if that happens, then Smashbox/B0XX would have a monopoly, which is kinda unfair... And also is really unfair to players who prefer the GC controller... And also, the difficulty of Melee is what it makes this game what it is.
I get your point, but why did we need to be at the same level of advantage? Well, I do understand that is indeed unfair but its as the same time relevant and irrelevant. I mean, thats only allow you to play more easily at top level if I understand well (like you can reach perfect frame more easily). Its not like that change something in the game itself or that you won't be able to reach top level with a GC controller. And we can't really call that cheat. Its for me the same thing that with GC controller and Wii U pro pad, like you got more lag with the pro controller that with the GC (wonder if its this one or the Wii one) I think that will allow to a lot of people to reach the top level (of course with almost as much traning than with a GC controller. Box or not, Melee is hard to master as f), and that can lead to crazy upset, like in the 2GGC:Civil War for example.
As Tafo pointed out - and many who have tried it have already claimed - I don't think that will ever be an issue. However, even if it was necessary to buy one to reach high level play, that would just create a initial start-up/investment cost so high that it would scare away new players and stifle community growth... and thereby box sales.
wonder nah i didn't buy into it because these goofballs i literally just watch hax proof video and i trust him enough to make a better product i don't care what tafo and a random guy has to say about the boxx
Rodrigo Ornelas Because it's a dogshit controller, especially if you're a top player that basically grinds the game like 8+ hours a day. Shit is not good for your hands.
lmao "Childish insults" like what? what disinformation? cause rectangle button layout IS terrible ergonomic-wise. Also, is it really a "Knockoff" if his design is actually better? Specially when smashboxx is like "Fund this, we will sell you a version 1 we are fixing later"? idk, but you sound like a smashboxx... what did you call them again.... "Fantards"? I mean, when i saw smashbox for the first time i was all for it, but objectively speaking b0xx is better in every sense and whether Hax is "Lying" about dustin and co, you gotta admit that the Smashbox flaws and his motivation to actually be able to play melee due to health issues are legit.
It's not informative, it's a rambling word soup of disinformation and childish insults specifically designed to manipulate people like you into starting a witch hunt against the smashboxx and the people working on it to get it defunded and have it's kickstarter fail so hax can swoop in with a shitty mimeographed knockoff product built around his own ego and likeness. Hax takes credit for a design that was finalized on January the 4th predating all the screen caps in hax's video and insinuates that the smashboxx team is only out for profit (the kind of profit that would come from making a niche product for the competitive community of a 16 year old GC game, that is to say pretty much nothing). All these things that don't make sense when you do a teaspoon of research or just think about it for too long but make for great soundbites in circlejerks. I'm going to buy the smashboxx, you can wait for the "B0xx" or whatever contraption hax is supposedly going to spearhead. Good luck throwing your money away at that kickstarter, I look forward to seeing the fallout from that. Unlike many of the Hax fantards currently spamming and vote brigading this comment section I recommend you watch ALL THE VIDEO'S on this controversy just like I did. Not just Hax's video.
Although I could care less about this argument, and I'm personally dissuaded from either side, I would just like to point out there was apparently a docs about something Hax said previous to the entire argument. I haven't read it myself because at this point it's just a waste of time, but if you're interested in reading it go ahead as I assume it could better inform both parties about the situation.
Cancer Based on the fact that it turns out most of the advanced tech was supposed to be in the game, I doubt it. Sakurai says that because he didn't like what it became, and that no one moved on afterwards. Look at brawl, clear regression is response to this community. There is a reason smash 4 is much more competitive oriented than brawl. He wanted to design a fighting game with different mechanics. The whole "it wasn't supposed to be competitive line" didn't come out until many years after melee.
And the alot of the tech was still put in by accident in melee, whether he was aware of it before the release or not. Furthermore, can you even name the changes made from brawl to smash 4? They were centered around fairness and player satisfaction, not making it more competitive.
Just give one of the boxes to a non top 20 Fox player, let him or her master it for a month or so and then put it to the test against Armada. If the player win against Armada or come close, the Box should be banned, if the result is pretty much the same or little differences appear let the Box play. Skill shouldn't relay on hardware, its like modify the specs of a character.
I think that was kinda his point. It's not going so make you significantly better(if at all). I personally don't know how I feel on the matter but I'll decide once the B0XX comes out.
kinda agree but i feel like at this point in the discussion everyone knows that it wont make you significantly better so his point is a little redundant, but i do agree that i missed his point
Leonel Remille an artist is only as good as his tools. that's like playing a good with a mouse and keyboard compared to a controller. Armada can switch as well if he wanted to as long there isn't any macros let them play. like for instance an arcade stick is more precise but pad players are killing it in sfv. it's just a preference for each player
Fuck the box, stick to a Gc controller, if u got bad hands then quit playing the damn game and move on in life like u should, after all it is a game at the end of the day
Christopher Nunez at this point it's obviously more than just a game. this is a career with money on the line some people can't do anything else but play this game and dedicate their lives to it.
I don't know man. Hax$ struggled doing every day things, which affected his quality of life. If you feel pain doing normal every day things over it, it'll be kind of hard to move on with your life normally. It is achievable to move on with life with significant injuries, but it's obviously compromising the fact you're missing out from specific experiences. But, to be fair, to get his level of injury it does require some form of negligence over your hand health.
Actually, there IS money in that. There are plenty of people with dispensable income to use supporting their favorite streamers who 'fuck around for 8 hours a day', without the need for 'family friendly fun'.
