Deconstructing the Fundamentals: The Trinity | Belief It Or Not 

14:12 That Daniel Craig bit does not seem to be from the MATRIX ;) I suppose it could be "Knives out" as i have not yet seen that one (nor glass Onion)

Hey, can't find the sources for the video, and j would love to reaserhc more abaut stuff mentioned in it esepecially wife of yaweh and other gods, can you please let me know where i can find that? Thanks in advance

You do realize that the trinity is not actually a "fundamental" aspect of Christianity, right. There are unitarian Christians, meaning that the father, son, and holy spirit are all the same thing.

Yeah it's Glass Onion. Sorry about that

So gr8 vid again but i think whats even more scary then realizing your talking to yourself is like say mormonism when they are telling 14 year old boys that "the preisthood is for you and the woman dont get that and when you have feelings thats god talking to you" like if i got that indoctrinated into that id think id be way more messed up now then i was jist realizing the protestant god doesnt make sense

Lol

Kids so cute. Hehe 😄

That is modalism, the belief that the Trinity is three different modes of God. It was declared a heresy.

So, also like a 3 in 1 in that it sucks at doing those things and you'd be better off with 3 seperate products lol?

​@@marinary1326That was my thought too

Exactly! Meandering thoughts leading to who knows where!😆

Makes no sense 😕

At least toddlers can be excused for being children that are just beginning to learn how to put coherent thoughts together.

The toddlers are at least entertaining.

Yalls killing me with the toddler analysis 😂😂😂😂 But it's so true

"We can't prove God is objectively real but you have to believe in him" "You can't prove social constructs are objectively real so we don't have to believe in them"

Underrated comment

😂

@@jeffersonclippership2588 - addendum "Also the devil is real and Satan, but we can't show him to you either, though we only have been told not to tempt God." "By the way, the funny feeling I get looking at both men and women must be the devil tempting me. I can't actually be attracted to them. And I think going to the Barbie movie will be the last straw. Help me Jebus!"🤣

The ANGEL of the Lord eh? I thought Jesus was lord, not an Angel??Sounds more Unitarian.

This was a few years ago. I would say about 2019.

You freed yourself, good for you.

That's a shame. Oh well as You're happy and a good person.

I feel like most people don't know what an inner monologue is and often mistake that as "god" talking

​@@masterlolilover5255 common muslims never mistake their enternal monologue for God. They are clearly taught God communicated with humans on earth through the angel Gabriel. Exception is prophet Moses. Peace be upon them, as they were taught to say.

You need to leave your environment and be yourself! Sooner the better! Best of luck!

​@@ToxicBottledOstrichNostrils... Truthfully I realize this is Absolutely NOT my business let me preface with that.... But I would like to say that I don't know that that's necessarily the best advice to give. I'm not saying necessarily also that you're wrong different family relationships are different we do not know enough about this person or their home life to know if jumping out and screaming I'm not a Christian is their best bet. Some people do need a little time to slide out of there, in order to either keep a good relationship with their family keep your place to live or where you or maybe they're just a little on the fence still.... Now having said that if this person could safely and happily accomplish leaving... Absolutely no doubt I'd be on your side cut and run as fast as possible IMHO the quicker you can get out usually seems only from my experiences it does seem better to get out quicker. Oftentimes the longer people stay the more damage that was done to them .

@@ambertemple9574 you’re right not my place either but I thought they were referring to another type of “coming out” in which they’re environment would probably never be a great place to be themselves. But yeah who am I to tell anyone what they should do. My apologies

Three Who's and one what. Whawho!!

That's still there gods, Vodie

and they do this all the time too. when i still go to church with my family the pastor likes to emphasize specific words, saying "see? god wouldn't use this word if he didn't mean ____" or "paul used this word to describe these people because he specifically meant ____". it's like. no. i mean, unless you think paul also translated the new testament from greek?

And some of those same people have a problem with using the correct pronouns for trans people, if they can understand this thing, I don't understand the difficulty they have with the rest because I watched this whole video and I still can't understand why this isn't polytheism.

Yeah, because hebrews didn’t know what a pronouns was. Could it be that it is an accurate translation? Could the Hebrew use of pronouns be the same as our own?

I went to enough preachers to know that their sermons are pretty much redefining a verse word by word to fit their narrative. I remember a sermon on how Adam was made but Eve was *fashioned*, then goes on a 15 minute rant on how beautiful and pleasing to the eye the female form is. 🤢God did that on purpose! Dont you feel special now! The end😕

The Bible was written in God's chosen language, English, you blasphemer.

Its the wool over their eyes.

Why limit to America? I’ve lived in Norway, Japan and different islands in Micronesia and can tell you that most Christians don’t know the history. I didn’t. Nor do I retain a lot of the information because it doesn’t help me pay rent or buy food…but not knowing how much beliefs have changed is a universal thing. And honestly, I don’t hold that against them. To me, Id rather hear them justify why their particular denomination or unique take is right and all of the billions plus other believers are wrong about the “same” god. Cheers.

​@@thelostone6981Hell has changed it's meaning over time. A First Century CE Christian would not have believed in Hellfire and damnation. Sheol was what happened when you died. In Dante's Divine Comedy in the 14th Century CE there were circles (levels) of Hell and were sâtan lived was at the bottom circle and it was very cold. And, one could escape hell. This was the teaching of the Church at the time. Hellfire and damnation came out of Congregationalists movement based upon their interpretation of Genesis 19:24 and Revelation 19:20.

@@georgeworley6927Very good. I think I would amend my last statement to say that while I don’t blame most believers for not knowing the history, “theologians” such as William Lane Craig should know better. That’s why I’ve enjoyed scholars, not from Bible colleges, such as Dr Bart Erhman and Dr Francesca Stravrakopoulou because I’ve learn a lot about the very things you’ve mentioned. One of my favorites is the that “he who is without sin cast the first stone” didn’t appear in the New Testament until @ the year 1,000.

@@thelostone6981 "Id rather hear them justify..." Would you really though? You already know the answer they'd give. They know because Bible god tells them so. At that point you're at an experiential gap and you can't really gainsay them. Dialogue effectively ends at this point. You can get a lot more work done by posing a problem that they can't just explain away with a personal experience. You never know what rhetorical strategy will get a person to actually be critical of their views. So I can't say that your question is always going to be ineffective. But from my experience, the two things that get believers to sit down and evaluate their beliefs are the problem of evil and the discrepancies between what they've been told about their religion and the things that are actually true about it.

Unless you have a masters in theology and have read this collection of books in its original languages, there’s not much hope of understanding this text beyond a superficial level - such is the nature of ancient religious texts…

Turned out you were actually too SMART, instead!

Totally understand. I think what made it easier for me to understand it as a kid was that I watched movies like Prince of Egypt, Veggietales Jonah, and Miracle Maker which made the stories and themes easier to understand once I actually sat down to read it voluntarily as I now had a general basis to follow.

@@jakeefialtis7293Yep, exactly. Too many people how many times it’s been translated/rewritten for different languages & that all of it is so “metaphorical” that it’s up for interpretation, which is why it’s so easy for people to use it to control others.

I mean it's literally from the eternal, omniscient God of the universe so it would be impossible to understand everything in it

Might be covid service? But yeah he’s blowing the top off his levels. RIP anyone listening on a headset.

​@@irenafarmAnd RIP to the handful of people in the chapel who're so close to Yelly McShoutyface! He never learned about "using your *inside voice"* at school😔

@@irenafarm I figured it could be social distancing but it still made me laugh cause it looks like he's almost holding those people hostage because he's preaching so aggressively. 🤣

Bro, I was thinking the exact same thing. Like why are you yelling, there are five people and they are all right there!

He must wish he was some big name televangelist preaching in a megachurch? They do say to 'manifest' your goals to make them come true...

Completely unfalsifable.

“It doesn’t have to make sense, you just have to accept it.” - I heard this statement used plenty of times to defend the trinity doctrine, but it pretty much is the core of all apologetics arguments for pretty much any major Christian belief. "It doesn't have to make sense. You just have to believe (or else you burn in hell)."

​​@@johnwalker1058the "you just need to have faith" argument, used all the time like the problem isn't that I dont actually have faith.

“It doesn’t have to make sense, you just have to accept it.” I heard that sooo many times at catechism class as a child, that I just stopped asking questions and treated it like regular school since you had to pass a test to not have to do it anymore.

A teacher once had a funny take: Just because you can't understand it doesn't mean that god is "illogical" he is just "beyond logic". Something has gone terribly wrong if you have to say that... In hindsight this is extremely memeable

Lmao! Cult nonsense, deliberately set up to make the victims feel both more unstable and also more desperate to understand. The priest at our school liked to tell lies about the disciples, and when pressed about why some evil things weren't on the ten commandments, shifted the focus to talk about mixed-fiber clothing and how that was not biblically allowed, and then why nobody should cast the first stone, since we are all sinners. 😂🤪🤯

@@rosethorne9155 So wild 😂 The more I step back from this religion, the more I realize how weird my interactions were growing up lol

I was also given a similar explanation while I was part of my very conservative parish community, that or that it's all a mystery. In hindsight those explanations seem to be nothing more than cop-outs and I was gaslit for a long time into believing those arguments (alongside other explanations on why I should be a Catholic when I had my first serious doubts when I was around 17). I've also started noticing the weird stuff I used to believe in but I'm still pissed about the most absurd thing of them all during those years, that is I allowed a bunch of celibate men to dictate what my sex life should be like which led to more than a decade of pointless repression and Purity Culture and the guilt only ended when I realized Original Sin makes no sense (and that I was going to hell anyways for being a heretic) and finally deconverted when I was 24.

Think of all the possibilities! 👽 it's all true but not true at the same time!

@@arirose6310 Likewise! I tried so hard to be devout, but there were too many bad things to pray away or ignore. I didn't think about the trinity much, because I was too hung up on all the genocide, child murder, rape, and wife beating/woman stoning that was in other parts of the bible. God is himself, and also his own son, and also some kind of spirit? Sure, whatever. Literally the LEAST of my concerns! And people don't even blink at the other stuff! 🤯

Some skeptical scholar needs to do a deep dive into this in a video!

Mass execution? Of whom? Do you mean excommunication? And what king are you referring to?

@@trikitrikitriki it's been 15 years since I read the book, I don't remember exactly which king it was, but his solution was definitely murder of anyone that disagreed with his version.

@@trikitrikitriki IDK exactly who OP is referring to, but I'll tell you with full confidence that monarchs mass-murdering of sects they disagreed with was extremely common. Look no further than the conflict between Catholics and Protestants in Western Europe. It spanned many years and many more bodies. Queen Mary I became infamous for executing Protestants, and she certainly wasn't the only monarch to do it.

​@@lunaangeleclipse9745 You can go a bit further than that and wind up with the Hussites. The Hussites were a group of religious reformers in the Kingdom of Bohemia (modern-day Czechia) sorta like the Protestants who came a century later. Eventually after the Catholic church executed the Hussite Leader for heresy, the tension grew, eventually after the first defenestration of Prague and then the death of the Bohemian King (who was Catholic) tensions reached the breaking point and the brother of the former King (who was also the Holy Roman Emperor, and possibly also the next in line for the Throne, it was in question whether or not the Kingdom of Bohemia was an elective or hereditary monarchy) got permission to lead a crusade against the Hussites. This lead to the Hussite wars, a series of 5 crusades against the Hussites by the Catholic Church, and the wars between various sub-sects of the Hussites in between the Crusades. According to some estimates as much as half of the population of Bohemia was killed during the conflicts. Yeah killing everyone who disagrees with you isn't uncommon.

What I hear when they say God is one but 3 people is that He disassociates and actually has more than one personality but 2000+ years ago.

@@bluester7177 lol same!

Lol, this video was made last week but I had to wait to release it for reasons, and that clip is one I added today at the very last minute.

It was also my favorite! It just fit the discussion so well even though the clip had nothing to do with God

It gives me Lovecraft vibes with the whole "multiple coexisting manifestations of a single entity" deal

​@@lyokianhitchhiker I interestingly don't see it as something "Lovecraftian", mostly because I am more familiar somewhat more Eastern views on Nature. If everything came from god... then stones and plants ARE manifestations of god, no different from Jesus, and has parts of it in them. Nothing absurd or fantastical.

@@NothingXemnas Yeah, but divine beings specifically being described as having multiple manifestations is mostly a thing in cosmic horror & Hinduism.

@@lyokianhitchhiker I just read Children of Memory by Adrian Tchaikovsky and it played with that idea! Probably the best book I've read so far this year, and I've read some great books in 2023!

@@NothingXemnas I'm half coast salish and that concept is totally familiar to me :)

What? Where would like to see.

​@@hackman669Exodus

Even in the hebrew it uses the plural when speaking about god, but sometimes in the singular. The contemporary idea (in Judaism) is that the word used is meant to signify the powers by which god creates, but we don't really know what people thought and believed waaaay back when these were written

As Trevor mentions in the video ancient Hebrew religion was polytheistic and evolved through time eventually leaving only Yahweh. Scholars have found various “fossil” references in the biblical text to a “divine council” that the editors of the Bible could not completely edit out. Verses in Gen. 1:26-27 “let US make man in OUR image” and “in the image of God He created him; Male and Female He created them” (so the gods created humans as male and female as gods were), the passage of the tower of Babel the OP mentions and others. IIRC in one of his videos dr. Kipp Davis (scholar in early Judaism and Dead Sea Scrolls) talks of scroll that shows that a passage that in our Bible is rendered as singular was originally referring to godS.

Early Judaism, and most Mediterranean and near-easterm religions, were monoaltreous rather than monotheistic in the strictest sense. Other gods exist, or at least might exist, but we worship the one god because he is OUR god.

More Olympian Epithets

He's right, you know.

We accepted it because the people we trusted the most in the world to guide us and raise us told us it was real. And of course, they went through the same thing too, so it's not even like it's entirely they're fault that you were mislead since they were mislead in the exact same way. It's all pretty gross.

Same

@@rainbowkrampus that's how I feel about my upbringing as well as a Catholic (and being raised in a Mexican family there was also the cultural pressure because for some time after my deconversion I felt like a traitor to my cultural background) and what I'm most pissed to this day is that I allowed an institution full of abuse to dictate what my sex life should be like for years, I'm still finding stuff that I used to believe in and seeing how bizarre it actually is in hindsight and from an outsider perspective. The first time I tried to leave the church was around the age of 17 and my father in particular didn't take it well and after a year of gaslighting and pressure I gave in, I tried to give Catholicism another chance until I finally realized how nonsensical it all is at age 24 and since then I haven't come out to family except with siblings and some cousins (I was the last child of the family to leave so I know for a fact that my parents wouldn't take it well at all).

All the things you accept in life are mind boggling right now. Why are you alive? You could just you know... not be alive.... it won't matter. You're just electric meat. Your family isn't real, neither are you. The video is a lie. You live a lie.

But then again alot of us believed in Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy without a moments pause, so I dont think we should be to hard on ourselves!

It's cuz Christians can't do math.

It's really way more confusing than it should be? Ultimately, I'm sure people would disagree, but it seems to me like it's just a weird way to say it's three entities that use the same power. God is God The Holy Ghost is just God's power doing its thing without him controlling it And Jesus is just someone who uses the powers of God and spreads his wisdom and stuff, but they have their own will and personality. So if you look at Jesus and he's using God's power and knowledge to do God things and speak the word of God, then it's basically /JUST/ God at that point. There's not much of a real distinction, figuratively speaking. But he's still a different thing because the GOD God is just out there doing whatever on his own. It's mostly just hard to explain because all of this is unironically magic, right? So it's like, try to find a real-world example of three beings having the same essence and qualities that's dumb enough for Christian Conservatives to mostly actually understand.

I guess what makes the three persons one is the fact that they share a hive mind instead of three wills and minds.

frankly we all would have been happier if they just leaned into it being the new polytheism instead. just say 'yes there is one all-powerful god who works through a spirit that does his bidding and his demi-god son' and you've functionally changed very little but have made it at least sort of follow. Mormonism is abjectly terrible, but at least their vision of what god is and how the divine works is comprehensible. Honestly I think why a lot of new non-trinitarian sects of christianity that popped up in the last few hundred years had some lasting power is they explain the divine concepts of christianity better than the trinitarian, nicean standard

The Pagans aren't the only ones who would say that. Muslims also argue that the Trinity is clearly 'Not Monotheism', and associating God with another deity is clearly heresy.

Yep.

Good idea and thanks so much

no you just dont wanna look for mature Christians explain it properly, your only understanding is what youtubers cherry pick

​@@jamesmedina3297Please explain then.

@@jamesmedina3297 if you can point to someone explaining it Properly, please do. :) Preferably with an explanation that the church hasn't declared heretical.

@@davidchess1985 John 14:11 “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, if nothing else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.” The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit all work in unison. We also share the relationship with the father the way Jesus does I think but absolutely not on the same level. We are not to look to Jesus as a fellow human but as God instead. All this insanity aside Jesus is the way into heaven

@@jamesmedina3297 So they are "in" each other? How does that work exactly? And this passage doesn't mention the Spirit at all. I don't think this clarifies all the questions brought up in the video here.

Your very fortunate I was raised in it and it was 25 years before I started to step back and think things through .I read a book called Christianity made me talk like an idiot very true😅

you stopped believing in the third grade? how do you explain getting to the fourth, then. do they skip it like the 13th floor

7th for me

I couldn't hold with an imaginary friend as a child, but I was told to believe there was a god in the sky. I tried for the longest time to just believe. As I grew into my teens I found I was just talking to myself when I was all alone. I found I had to do it myself or ask of my fellow humans. Gods of any kind never showed at all. I do my best not to ask for help, I sometimes have to. If any family or friends ask for help I help them if I can. Sorry for the long note.

@@Karuvitomsk Well they had us outside in trailers so it was pretty easy to block it out of my memory

No I belife its more like Eldric Horror, the Trinity are one Shapeshifter who exist in three different dimensional Spaces at once. Think of Cell vs Sonic in DBZA.

That's SORT OF how the Mormons conceptualize their Godhead. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different beings, but are considered the Godhead collectively because they are unified in their will. Silly, of course, just silly in a different way.

@@Uryvichk The Borg are not silly, you blasphemer!

I rather assume they are three retarded subminds of Earth Central that went black. Some of their stuff make the Prador look good in comparison.

I honestly understood it more like superpowered being that can multiply into 3 and shapeshift while being able to maintain a hive mind

A very interesting thing to learn is that yahweh and elohim are names for the same god but they used to be different deities in the older, still polytheistic pantheon of ancient judaic faith.

But remember she is just a she-ra not the she-ra. Okay okay... sorry. I go...

​@l0rf doesnt elohim mean literally "gods" as in nameless and plural?

hahaha right!

You just need to hire someone to nod every time you speak.

Only if you start with jazz hands and finish with spirit fingers.

I just converted! Legit could not resist those hand movements.

So what you are saying is if I wave my hands a lot, add some jazz hands and spirit fingers, get my husband to nod along, while I say “you love veggies. Veggies are your favorite.” My kids will take this as a deeply held belief? Did we just discover the ultimate parenting hack? 😂😂😂

?

@@hackman669 "retcon" means "retroactive continuity", and refers to situations where an older storyline gets revised in order to try to make it continuous with a later storyline that was concocted later. Like some prequel movies that were made much later than the main movie and attempt to provide a backstory for it. I'm not sure what specific old-testament incidents Hob is referring to as Jesus or trinity prequels.

@@Graham_Wideman All the stuff in the video of people saying this or that angel or godly messenger was actually Jesus. I've never heard anyone suggest before that Jesus was the one who stopped the binding of Issac for example. And retcons don't just happen in prequels, they happen in sequels and long-running media of any kind. It's especially egrigious in comic books, which is I believe where the term originated. Anything that tries to say "Hey you know how X happened before? Well it turns out it was actually Y" when it wasn't in the original plan. Like "Hey, remember this old Fantastic Four villain called Rama-Tut? Well, it turns out in this issue he's *actually* a version of newer Avengers villain Kang the Conqueror!" etc etc etc. It's not uncommon for writers to retcon their own material, but it happens a lot more in situations where you have different teams of wtiters over a long period of time.

Reminds me of the common interpretation of that one passage from Isaiah.

Funny thing is, it's also possible that the jews who founded the Jesus cult used the same method to invent Jesus in the first place. The practice of bouncing around whatever scriptures were available to them and connecting and reinterpreting them in light of that connection is called 'pesher'. It's really interesting seeing christians today doing the exact same thing ancient jews were doing in order to justify their homophobia or oppose abortion rights. And then accidentally hit on the same idea the original Jesus cult came up with to justify Jesus.

Yeah, that "he sees you when youre sleeping, he knows when youre awake" mindset was pretty terrible for a kid with undiagnosed OCD. Not only does your brain go crazy if you take an odd number of steps, but your eternal salvation is at stake because you were imperfect.

So trinity is 3 bodies with one mind?!😑

@@hackman669 more like 3 pints in one glass ;)

​​@@hackman669nope. It's both and neither. If u can sort of "get" new age/science stuff u might have some um idk what 2 call it but it's just one of those crazy "rabbit holes" have u ever watched "what the * bleep * do we know?" It's worth a watch. I think u can find it on utube.

If God exists they could absolutely make a square circle, it’s part of the whole omnipotence deal, isn’t it?

@@SorowFame I guess. But anything is possible in the land of make-believe.

I feel like that's an insult to mud.

FACTS! 🔥

That's literally what theology debates are

Wibbly Wobbly timey wimey stuff.

He could teach that, but he’s got product to move!

Also, it reminds me of the fervent obsession of religious Romanians to see relics of the saints, the most notorious case being the pilgrimage to Saint Parascheva on the 14th of October.

Christianity has borrowed from the poly religions. The roman Catholic church is the last remainder of the old roman religion. They kept the Latin, the dress and a great of the old ritual acts. One of the churches I went to called the elements at mass every Sunday, in Latin, with frankense. Not very unpagan.

😂😂😂 I was raised catholic and read a lot of world mythology as a kid. I used to wonder why there were so many "real" saints who --purely coincidentally-- seemed to have the exact same powers as some "totally not real" demigods and gods from other faiths. In some cases, they even kept the same myth and just plastered a Christian saint over an extant god they were replacing! I asked once why god looked so much like Zeus in pictures, and the teacher changed the subject and wouldn't answer any more of my questions! 😂

@@rosethorne9155 *cough* *cough* Saint Dimitra.

@@rosethorne9155 there's a statue of Zeus in Rome where that happened. It was Zeus but after Constantine it became Jesus.

My idea was account sharing, 1 account, 3ppl with the login info

This is a good illustration. I think it runs into some of the same problems other illustrations do. Each arm would have to be the complete three armed person, while also only being one arm.

Well what are they supposed to do, ask Jewish people about their own scriptures to find out what they mean? Those guys can't even find the Trinity and Jesus in there, they're clearly doing it all wrong!

Jesus did exist during that time. He had a pre-mortal existence He's mentioned a lot as a helper to God, keep in mind that "Jesus" is only the name he took when he became mortal

@@khankorpofficial Jesus didn't exist though

@@Soapy-chan I'm explaining it under the context of the biblical story. The idea in the bible is that Jesus had a pre-mortal existence, that is what they believe Also Jesus did exist on Earth, he was a man. Whether you believe he is God, the son of God, or a prophet, or a fraud, is irrelevant, but he existed in flesh. don't let your own personal "muh anti religion" feelings make you incapable of rationality

@@khankorpofficial He wasnt a man, he didnt exist on earth. That has nothing to do with my feelings, there is literally no evidence for his existence.

Honestly, as a kid I really loved reading Lovecraft so the idea of a single being having multiple forms was a concept I was familiar with (and that, in retrospective, did mean I was a heretic for believing Jesus was fully godly) It's fun what nonsencical things you rationalised as a kid. Another memory I have is how I thought about god not appearing anymore like us being in one of those sealed ecosystems people make and him just forgetting to appear every once in a while.

​@manfredrichtoften8848 the only reason that particular interpretation is heretical is because the Cathars took that to its logical conclusion and denied the Cross.

@@charliekahn4205 thank you for an explanation why, didn't think about adding it.

I always took it as something like multiple manifestations of a single entity

I had that thought too. I think it would be easier for churches everywhere if they just admitted the Trinity was Three Gods and not One.

Sorry it was things going badly that pushed you to start questioning your beliefs. Cold comfort maybe but that's true for many former believers. If you look around you can probably find a bunch of people who have had experiences similar to whatever you're going through right now. Wherever you land, just remember to be kind to yourself and to keep asking questions.

Honestly, we should be grateful that ancient people had no real concept of alternate dimensions. Can you imagine how much more convoluted all of this stuff would be?

@@rainbowkrampuswat if thats why its so convoluted 😂

What

@@hackman669 "Filioque" - it's the part of the (western) creed that says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father AND the Son. The Orthodox have the Spirit proceeding only from the Father. Capisce?

@@paulbuller8360exactly. And it might not seem like much but it was a HUGE deal. Not just in itself but the manner in which it was sorted out. The Orthodox Church had gone through centuries of back and forth with different sects (which is also a soft reason why the then Syriac speaking parts of the Eastern Roman Empire speak Arabic now) and had finally, FINALLY settled on a concept of the trinity and the Western Church, the Pope, and the Franks just toss it out the window without talking to anyone else. It may sound completely insane but it’s was super important to people living in the 11th Century.

Become a Jehovah's Witness, they'll be no more confusion but you'll be all dumbed down and believe in a cult lol

It's meant to be confusing. It's designed to cause cognitive dissonance. When coupled with threats of eternal torture for not agreeing with an irrational, illogical nonsense concept like the trinity, it forces people to accept what is irrational, illogical and pure nonsense. And when you can get people to believe absolute nonsense, you can get them to believe anything, including the justification of some of the most horrific ateocities against humanity as has been the reality of christianity over the last 2000 years.

Try Vice Rhino. Intetesting ain't it!😄😃😀

Well, if your claim is that the books are divinely inspired and that they are meant to contain a message for all people for all time, then you don't really care about accurate translation. The implication is that the necessary information would come through anyway. As long as the translations aren't overtly erroneous, which questionable decision making aside the books do more or less accurately convey the words being translated, then magic Bible god will take care of the rest. I've yet to meet a christian who gives a toss that "heaven" would be more accurately understood as "outer space", since 1st century cosmology was radically different and they thought that the gods literally lived up in the sky. Rather than in the sort of alternate dimension people mostly imagine today. These sorts of conceptual discrepancies are just malleable enough that there's enough wiggle room for them to avoid having to think too deeply about these issues.

If "splitting yourself apart" created new distinct entities, I don't understand how it can be said that those entities are still the entity they came from while being distinct from it and each other. Laws of identity and all that, but like you said, "MAGIC".

@@whatwecalllife7034 I have to admit I'm not familiar with the laws of identity. But the way I've always used to understand the concept is through an analogy I created. Basically think of God as an infant bowl of rice. The bowl is God and rice also God or more specifically his essence, or whatever you call it. Now take a smaller bowl, let's say it's Jesus with his own will and everything engraved onto it. But it can't do much as an empty bowl/vessel. So the God bowl takes some of its godly rice and pours it into the Jesus bowl. Now the Jesus bowl can function and do everything it needs to do. But it's still God rice in bowl, it didn't suddenly become Jesus rice. Jesus maybe his own person, but he still has God's essence. As a result he'd still be subject to God's will. Well I hope you liked that, I made up that analogy when I was a kid. I've enjoyed thinking about metaphysics and how that stuff could work.

@@zero69kage I understand what that analogy is going for and I do like it, if we're strictly talking fiction. I have zero problems suspending disbelief for the sake of story telling. The problem occurs when we try to describe reality in such nebulous terms. My main problem with it is the "essence" thing. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any examples of what an "essence" is. For example, what is the "essence" of a car, rock, or leaf? How can we measure or observe the "essence" of a thing? How does it function? Can it be separated from the thing or is it intrinsic to it? So on and so forth. Another interesting thing about that analogy is that it sounds like a hive mind situation 😆. So while they have separate, distinct bodies, their minds are the same. Another thing we don't see in reality.

​@@whatwecalllife7034some branches of Hinduism have this same concept, but better integrated into the faith.

@@charliekahn4205 Thank you, yes I'm aware of that fact about Hinduism and yes it is more sensible because the trinity aren't the same entity correct? They are separate primordial entities with their own functions and purpose yet they are vital, but different aspects of reality correct?

Leaving religion has given me ANUSTART.

I've never seen anyone else on RU-vid reference the common line of argumentation about the Angel of the Lord. It's a niche thing that most Christians don't know about, but it's pretty important to trinitarian theologians. I really appreciate you taking the time to represent the argumentation accurately!

Same, lol

As a current Mormon, I find it particularly fascinating to watch atheist RU-vidrs tackle mainstream Christianity and discover myself almost never agreeing with the Christians: I either agree with the atheists, or hold some third view contrary to both.

Is this a bot?

To remove its own curse that it put on humanity because a couple of naked people are a piece of fruit at the behest of a talking snake - yeah…. Makes perfect sense…

And he punished them for disobeying him… before they ate the fruit and knew that disobedience was “evil”. A total fair, sensible, and just god.

I know what you're talkin about It's still ridiculous and makes no sense Luckily, the bible never talks about a trinity so real christians dont believe in such nonsense

@@khankorpofficialas a “real Christian”, what do you believe?

Theology comes from combining two Greek words: theos, meaning God, and logos, meaning word or rational thought. [The Word is Elohim from Genesis 1] (not to be confused with Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2) Compare John 1: 1-5 with Genesis 1: 1-5: John 1: 1-5 Names of God Bible The Word Becomes Human 1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was already with God in the beginning. 3 Everything came into existence through him. Not one thing that exists was made without him. 4 He was the source of life, and that life was the light for humanity. 5 The light shines in the dark, and the dark has never extinguished it. Genesis 1: 1-5 Names of God Bible The Creation 1 In the beginning Elohim created heaven and earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep water. The Ruach Elohim was hovering over the water. 3 Then Elohim said, “Let there be light!” So there was light. 4 Elohim saw the light was good. So Elohim separated the light from the darkness. 5 Elohim named the light day, and the darkness he named night. There was evening, then morning-the first day.

[Yahweh Elohim, false Elohim from Genesis 2, accepts a child sacrifice]: (not to be confused with Elohim or Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1) Judges 11 Names of God Bible Jephthah’s Vow 29 Then the Ruach Yahweh came over Jephthah. Jephthah went through Gilead, Manasseh, and Mizpah in Gilead to gather an army. From Mizpah in Gilead Jephthah went to attack Ammon. 30 Jephthah made a vow to Yahweh. He said, “If you will really hand Ammon over to me, 31 then whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me when I return safely from Ammon will belong to Yahweh. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” 32 So Jephthah went to fight against Ammon. Yahweh handed the people of Ammon over to him. 33 He defeated them from Aroer to Minnith and on to Abel Keramim, 20 cities in all. It was a decisive defeat. So the Ammonites were crushed by the people of Israel. 34 When Jephthah went to his home in Mizpah, he saw his daughter coming out to meet him. She was dancing with tambourines in her hands. She was his only child. Jephthah had no other sons or daughters. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes in grief and said, “Oh no, Daughter! You’ve brought me to my knees! What disaster you’ve brought me! I made a foolish promise to Yahweh. Now I can’t break it.” 36 She said to him, “Father, you made a promise to Yahweh. Do to me whatever you promised since Yahweh has punished your enemy Ammon.” 37 Then she said to her father, “Do me a favor. Give me two months for my friends and me to walk in the mountains and mourn that I will never have an opportunity to get married.” 38 “Go!” he said, and he sent her off for two months. She and her friends went to the mountains, and she cried about never being able to get married. 39 At the end of those two months she came back to her father. He did to her what he had vowed, and she never had a husband. So the custom began in Israel 40 that for four days every year the girls in Israel would go out to sing the praises of the daughter of Jephthah, the man from Gilead.

@@ready1fire1aim1 are you trying to make the bible make more sense? Because this doesn't help if that's what you're doing.

@@janiceh.45 The Bible was solved when the Mt Ebal curse tablet was discovered. We now have hard evidence that YHWH from the Old Testament, who is just YHW on the Mt Ebal curse tablet, is one and the same as Yaw (originally Yam) from the Baal Cycle. Yahweh Elohim from Genesis 2 is the false Elohim. His Bronze Age epithets were the Dragon, the Twisting Serpent and the Seven-headed Monster.

@@ready1fire1aim1 ok down the rabbit hole I’m going… I don’t understand what you’re saying but I’ll study it to see if I can. Thank you @ready1fire1aim1

I very much like the idea of divine system. The Christian trinity doesn’t fit, but pagan pantheons operate as if there’s fluidity between identities.

@@irenafarm What do you mean by "fluidity between identities?" From my perspective it makes sense, in the same way that plural systems online may use multiple accounts or something like Pluralkit to communicate as individual persons while still being part of the whole. With divine power there would be an ability to make that distinct presentation a physical reality while the internal experience still maps onto a plural experience.

@@onyxtay7246 Then that means you believe in multiple Gods

@@khankorpofficial It doesn't though. I will preface this by saying I'm no longer religious but spent a long time as a trinitarian Christian. I don't think the Bible actually gives much support for the trinity as a concept - it's something Christians made up and now will will do endless mental gymnastics to justify. I think this is a far simpler explanation which also encourages understanding for a group which is often literally demonized by Christians. Three persons within one entity. That certainly sounds like the trinity. It's also a description of one kind of plurality. All still existing, separate beings who share power and are equals to each other. What would make them multiple gods? Like, they don't have a body but on just aboit everything else the trinity presents like a plural system. One entity, multiple persons.

Yep. My parents: “Humans will never understand the trinity! It is impossible for man to understand how someone can be three in one!” Me with my undiagnosed dissociative disorder wondering why people don’t understand because it is literally my every waking moment: “Interesting.”

I also always wondered about this. What Christians describe though, includes three beings that act simultaneously. I think most get hung up on the idea of separate agency. To me that seemed plausible. What made my brain hiccup, was the idea that the three were supposedly acting together. Jesus is baptized, the Father speaks audibly, while the Spirit manifests as a birb. I was relieved when I was able to give up the burden of trying to make sense of this. It works SO much better in what was probably the original form: Father King and Queen Mother give birth to the Creator who battles the Chaos Serpent and makes land from her body, then sun, moon, and stars, etc…The gods in these stories emanate from each other and can merge into each other or assume each other’s form - it’s all fluid. In a way, it’s a much more consistent way of describing divinity.

Haha 😄

This is my head canon. The spirit is feminine. Ofc it’s because the word spirit is feminine (I think?), but it’s still interesting considering the record of divine consortship.

Thanks for the tips!

​@@BeliefItOrNot Thanks for this episode! What could I say to my parents who say to think of the trinity as 3 states of water/gas, or like an egg yolk, white and shell, which combined are all part of the egg, yet can still be separate?

None of those things can be infinite and finite at the same time. There can’t be infinite egg but also discrete parts. If there’s egg that’s not egg yolk, then it’s not infinite. The three forms are transient states of matter- that’s a really awful analogy because it implies that the divine being is something different depending on some outside force. 😂

Makes more sense than the rest of this

We’ll have yall heard what angels are supposed to look like I don’t think that fits either 😅

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That’s the Mormon conception of God

​@@AmbitiousNoodlethe council part ?

@@miguelatkinson, yes. Mormons believe in the Godhead, which is that the father, the son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate persons but united in purpose

And the Metatron is their press department?

@@AmbitiousNoodle I was unaware. Thanks for the enlightenment.

"Three who's in a what" sounds like someone trying to describe a four way without being explicit

The whos-and-what explanation is especially funny because it's incorrect (insofar as any interpretation of the Trinity can be correct while also making any sense) and WILDLY heretical.

Some religions have infinite gods in one