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Denethor - The Forgotten Hero? 

Darth Gandalf
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5 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 159   
@Lawrence_Talbot
@Lawrence_Talbot Год назад
When reading the books, I always saw Denathor as just tired. Tried of being without a Queen. Tired of losing loved ones. Tired of being the only one fighting Sauron’s/Mordor’s armies. Tired of holding out while waiting for the inevitable defeat. The films did him dirty.
@finlay9616
@finlay9616 Год назад
They really did.. We saw him at the end of ALL THE SHITTY LIFE HE'D LIVED.. He always tried to be his best, to do what was right, but in Lord of the Rings when we see him, I agree... He's so fucking exhausted
@elagabalusrex390
@elagabalusrex390 Год назад
Dude, I work three jobs and I'm tired every damn day, but I haven't struck a match so far. To be human is be tired and to struggle and claw for everything we have our whole lives. Denethor should have manned up instead of taking the cowards way out (and attempting to take his son with him too, to top it off). Theoden did it, and he was just a lowly northman without any of Denethor's precious Numenorean pedigree...
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit Год назад
​@@elagabalusrex390 Denethor saw no way out. He killed himself because he preferred to die at his own terms. Yet he was mistaken about the outcome of the battle...
@oleandreasrye4504
@oleandreasrye4504 Год назад
@@Crafty_Spirit the black sails. Sauron did him dirty
@finlay9616
@finlay9616 Год назад
@@elagabalusrex390 lol, what a pathetic and terrible take. You also don't have to communicate and fight off the influence of a magic angel level near deity. Talk about a MASSIVE L of a take
@TJDious
@TJDious Год назад
Fair play, if Denethor hadn't done so well defending Gondor for so many years there wouldn't have been much left for Rohan and Aragorn to save.
@Marko777ify
@Marko777ify Год назад
Yeah, but Sauron made no serious advancements against Gondor until later. He was just distracting Denethor and at the same time testing him.
@Saurophaganax1931
@Saurophaganax1931 Год назад
@@Marko777ify perhaps Denethor is to thank for the fact that Sauron made no serious advancements against Gondor for so long. While Sauron was mustering his forces, Denethor worked restlessly to harden Gondor’s defences into such a nut that it simply wasn’t worth it for Sauron to crack his teeth upon it until he was sure he had the forces in place necessary to break it without breaking his own army in process. But just imagine being “tested” by Sauron for years on end. Constantly being attacked and harassed with your defences being endlessly probed for weak spots by this ineffable ultimate evil that you cannot comprehend beyond the fact that it is purely malicious, overwhelmingly powerful, and determined to destroy you and all that you love. It’s little wonder that Denethor was a paranoid wreck by the end of it all
@Marko777ify
@Marko777ify Год назад
@@Saurophaganax1931 Perhaps.
@anthonymartell9880
@anthonymartell9880 Год назад
I’m surprised that you didn’t mention how he was able to go toe-to-toe in a battle of wills with Sauron through the Palantir, something that Saruman couldn’t do. Might be his most impressive single feat in my opinion.
@Marko777ify
@Marko777ify Год назад
Saruman was more corrupt than Denethor. That's why he "broke" earlier than Denethor, despite being more powerful.
@oleandreasrye4504
@oleandreasrye4504 Год назад
@@Marko777ify not exactly. As Steward of Gondor, Denethor was one of the rightful users of the Palantir. That’s why Sauron couldn’t dominate his mind. That is also why Aragorn as the heir of Elendil, was able to engage with Sauron through the Orthanc-stone. He states: “the right can not be doubted. The strength was enough, barely”
@Marko777ify
@Marko777ify Год назад
@@oleandreasrye4504 I know what you mean. Right to use it doesn't mean Numenorean and/or ruler of Gondor/Arnor per se. Saruman had the "right" to use the Palantir since it was entrusted to him by none other than the Stewart of Gondor himself. Note that Gandalf doesn't say to Saruman that he shouldn't use the Palantir because he doesn't have the right, but because it's dangerous to do so. Saruman lost his right when he became evil and wanted to become the Dark Lord himself and turned his back to Gondor and Rohan which happened during the events of the Hobbit if not earlier. I think that both of our points stand. Saruman had the right to use the Palantir but became corrupt and a traitor, so he lost the right and that made him twice as weak to use the Palantir. But even then he wasn't completely under the control of Sauron. Neither was Denethor, but he broke (at the end). Saruman never did, even with the loss of most of his power.
@anthonymartell9880
@anthonymartell9880 Год назад
@@Marko777ify I would argue that still means that Denethor had the greater Will than Saruman even after Denethor broke. Saruman didn’t break all at once as Denethor did, it was a series of steps that took him to his final destination, but the results speak for themselves. Saruman had literally switched from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil and unrepentantly did so. Even if Saruman wasn’t 100% loyal too Sauron, Sauron did dominate his Will the first time they battled each other thru the Palantir. Denethor on the other hand even in the depths of his despair NEVER considered Service to the Dark Lord and chose too die instead of accepting Sauron’s “inevitable” victory.
@gerardsavage1145
@gerardsavage1145 10 месяцев назад
​@@oleandreasrye4504I wonder who decides who is a "rightful user" of a Palantir. Feanor certainly didn't create them so some steward of a realm descended from another kingdom of men could one day use it. Maybe it's like the Silmarils, resistant to evil. But Sauron was able to turn one to his own devices, at least to a certain degree. I suppose that's down to Sauron's own power.
@RedWinter21
@RedWinter21 Год назад
He had a "shout out" from Boromir in the first movie, while chastising the council he said his father held back mordor's forces while their (everyone else's) lands were kept safe
@LeHobbitFan
@LeHobbitFan Год назад
You hit the nail on the head with this one! Denethor's analysis of the situation is completely correct: here is no hope of ever defeating Sauron in battle. And yet he persists, with all the might and all the wisdom granted to him, facing the Enemy with cold, hopeless resolution. His greatest flaw, as I see it, is his lack of trust in providence. And when he finally snaps, he only reaches a logical conclusion: in the face of inevitable destruction, you might as well die on your own terms. It's a purely cold, rational reaction to absolute despair. It's also a great contrast to the Rohirrim's "northen courage". When Éomer sees the Black Ships, he readies his men for a final stand. He, like Denethor, has no reason to hope to survive, let alone win; yet he decides to fight head on, defying the powers that will inevitably crush him in the end. He faces absolute despair with a kind of mad courage that, in the end, gives way to hope beyond all guessing, as chance (or providence) turns in their favor against all odds.
@DarthGandalfYT
@DarthGandalfYT Год назад
Brilliant comment, Jo.
@LeHobbitFan
@LeHobbitFan Год назад
@@DarthGandalfYT Thanks, mister Darth sir!
@MrClickity
@MrClickity Год назад
In a way, you could say they both reached the same conclusion: "might as well die on my own terms". They just took that conclusion in different directions.
@LeHobbitFan
@LeHobbitFan Год назад
@@MrClickity Good point! I guess it fits rather well with Tolkien's idea of the Long Defeat; ultimately you cannot win against evil (not without divine intervention), but you still ought to fight it. It's like what Frodo did: he was never strong enough to throw the Ring in the fire, but the fact he still fought to do it nonetheless is what allows its destruction.
@Fronzel41
@Fronzel41 4 месяца назад
In classical Christian philosophy despair was a sin as it meant a lack of trust that God would provide.
@LewisChristisonVids
@LewisChristisonVids Год назад
Consider this; Communing with Sauron through the palantir turned Saruman evil; It didn't for Denethor .
@DamonNomad82
@DamonNomad82 10 месяцев назад
Exactly! Denethor, a mortal man, resisted corruption and enslavement that Saruman, a Maia who had witnessed the creation of the world, could not! That says a lot for how much it took to break Denethor.
@lars9925
@lars9925 13 дней назад
I don't think Saruman turned evil because of the Palantír. He was searching for the One Ring for his own possession long before he came into contact with Sauron. His journey to the dark side began with his greed for power, not with Sauron. He was already well on his path to evil when he used the Palantír and became even more corrupted by Sauron.
@joshthomas-moore2656
@joshthomas-moore2656 Год назад
8:30 can we all take a moment to pity the poor person who had to tell Denathor stuff that he already knew he must have been thinking at some point "Why am i here?" and must have been over joyed to suprise Denathor with new information.
@DarthGandalfYT
@DarthGandalfYT Год назад
It would be a fun little game for the messengers. They could even wager on it. W
@joshthomas-moore2656
@joshthomas-moore2656 Год назад
@@DarthGandalfYT I now have an image of a Gondorian gambling den in my head
@grandadmiralzaarin4962
@grandadmiralzaarin4962 Год назад
Thank you for doing this video. Denethor matched his will against Sauron's for decades in a way even Saruman failed to do directly. This is one area Jackson really dropped the ball in the films as in the books, Denethor being so strong and competent REALLY makes his final collapse all the harder hitting because it showed just how very bleak the situation truly was.
@MrClickity
@MrClickity Год назад
Agreed. I love the films but I never liked the way they made him into a callous, petty asshole instead of a noble man who's finally reached the limit of what he can bear.
@Huojunta
@Huojunta Год назад
He actually reminds me quite a bit of Brandir the Lame from the Children of Húrin. A reasonable leader outshone among his own people by an outsider of superior valor, though the manners of their deaths differ quite a bit.
@DarthGandalfYT
@DarthGandalfYT Год назад
I can definitely see the similarities.
@hansmaus4220
@hansmaus4220 Год назад
Denethor relies on "Amdir" but not "Estel". The difference between Denethor and Gandalf or Theoden is the most important part of the Lord of the Rings, at least in my opinion. Unlike Denethor, Gandalf has trust in Frodo's mission and the "fool's hope". Having said that, Denethor's backstory is fascinating. His relationship with Ecthelion, Thorongil, Gandalf, Finduilas, Boromir and Faramir is complicated - making him one of my favorite (maybe even my absolute favourite) character of Tolkien's universe.
@BelegaerTheGreat
@BelegaerTheGreat Год назад
Way too many other epic characters there to pick Denethor, but you have my like for "amdir".
@GirlNextGondor
@GirlNextGondor Год назад
I am a simple Girl; I see the words "Denethor II" and "Hero" in a thumbnail, I click.
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit Год назад
You know, I really liked your episode on Denethor's textual evolution. His last words are really interesting to me, I like to think that when he describes his pyre, and he links it to the burial rituals of ancient pre-Numenorean forefathers, he basically declares that civilisation itself will end with Gondor and his personal demise. Then I think of the barrow-downs. It is said that Men were laid to rest there long before Elendil came ashore. Maybe this is where they began to bury their dead. What do you think?
@concept5631
@concept5631 Месяц назад
We stan Denethor II, the crownless king -(stewart)-
@skatemetrix
@skatemetrix Год назад
Denethor kept his shit together and did all he could to push back the calamity. He also duelled with Sauron's mind on the palantir for quite possibly years, and considering that Gandalf was very fearful of using a palantir, it shows that Denethor was made of strong stuff- perhaps he was more Numenorian than most but in a good way.
@aserta
@aserta Год назад
That's because was a Stewart of Gondor, given right to use the stones. Same with Aragorn. He's able to use it where others would fail, and go full tilt against Sauron's power.
@McHobotheBobo
@McHobotheBobo Год назад
Not just years, but decades!
@kjetilhansen5363
@kjetilhansen5363 Год назад
To me, Denethor is Tolkien's take on the classic tragic hero in literature. He was once a great and noble ruler, but through his tragic flaw, his pride and arrogance, he wrongfully believed he was strong enough to wield the palantir without falling prey to Sauron's manipulations. Through Sauron's machinations, his bravery and wisdom turned to madness and despair.
@MadnessTW
@MadnessTW Год назад
In some respects, I can understand the treatment he got. It's difficult to carve him out as a character on the limited time available in a movie. Flanderisation can occur on that basis, but there are times when they took it too far. Not lighting the beacons was stupid and out of character (even if they did link it to his envy towards Aragorn) and I never thought the suicidal charge made any sense. (Why would you even send cavalry to take back a city anyway?) The worst part to me is that because this replaces another scene, I never got to see Swan Knights in action. Speaking of characters done dirty, Imrahil wasn't in the movie at all and his city was never mentioned.
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit Год назад
Agreed, the most epic unit of Gondor and their most interesting Prince Imrahil are dearly missed in the film. It's like the screenplay was fixed on showing the Gondorians in an almost pathetic state, completely helpless without foreign saviors...
@eugene8498
@eugene8498 Год назад
Within the limited time I'd rather not see a mad man consuming grapes, Gollum framing Sam with crumbs, Théoden hesitating whether to aid Gondor or not ... I think a lot of needless additions can be cut to make the time. We get even more time with the extended edition. I wouldn't miss the drinking game, pirate shooting, staff breaking, ambassador slaying, etc.
@forickgrimaldus8301
@forickgrimaldus8301 Год назад
Well with those 2 actions I guess considering they already dropped a ton of his backstory and made him look worse than his book counterpart already by cutting it, I guess they just said "F it" and made him an obstacle to the heroes just to have something interesting happen with him and the Fellowship. Because they cut out a ton of context and drama from the books they might have figured that its more entertaining to completely change Denathor's character than stick to the way the book version than have him act without the Backstory which would confuse non LOTR fans.
@forickgrimaldus8301
@forickgrimaldus8301 Год назад
​@@Crafty_Spiritwhich was likely the point as that fuelled drama, a ton of the changes that the movies did can be chalked up to te change in medium from Books to Films tbh, The changes are done either for time, drama, pacing and/or to make things look cooler and less contrived to show to an audience unfamiliar with te source material. The Denathor changes are mostly done for the 1st 2 with mixed results IMO.
@wedgeantillies66
@wedgeantillies66 Год назад
Denethor is affectively the shield of gondor, who through his defensive tactical strategy, intelligence gathering through the planatir and stubborn defence of their border under his leadership. Kept Gondor in the game until the end phase and allow for Aragorn coming in as the avenging sword of gondor tolead coalition of the west to victory cannot be underestimated or ignored.
@varyar77
@varyar77 Год назад
Denethor definitely suffered the most in Jackson's adaptation. Give the man his table manners, if nothing else! I like how he's depicted in LOTRO, especially the mention he gets at the Great Wedding.
@forickgrimaldus8301
@forickgrimaldus8301 Год назад
TBF I think they did that because they didn't have time to flesh out a more book accurate version of him, its easier to make Denathor simply incompetent and more of an obstacle to the heroes than a Broken leader in times of crisis. (Its easier to fill that in a book you can read in your spare time than a Movie that has to have at most last 2-3 hrs chalk full of characters already) In order for a book accurate version to work you have to dump a ton of backstory for a character who is gonna die amyways and considering his hated place in the fandom they decided to make Denathor an incompetent, mad, tyrant.
@greenchristendom4116
@greenchristendom4116 Год назад
Theoden and Faramir were also gravely diminished in the films treatment.
@ambience273
@ambience273 Год назад
People say Pippin's purpose was to distract Sauron but I also think it was to not let Denethor kill his own son, for all the good he did, and all the good Faramir would do. Also at least for some Denethor inspired love or respect. In the battle some soldiers come tell him that they would like him to lead them in battle instead of Gandalf.
@robertmyers4664
@robertmyers4664 Год назад
Nicely done. The older I get and more I think about it, my view of Denathor is that of a tragic character, one with whom I sympathize, because of all he suffered and faced in life. That doesn’t excuse his final actions, but they do feel very human and understandable. And yes, I don’t think he could have lived under Aragorn’s rule and would have exiled or killed himself once it inevitably came to pass.
@bleekskaduwee6762
@bleekskaduwee6762 Год назад
Your ending advice is always the best
@bladerunner951
@bladerunner951 Год назад
Excellent video. I haven't read the LotR books since I was a teenager but I should reread them soon. I think the way Denethor was treated in the films is kinda similar to how the Game of Thrones show treated Stannis Baratheon. To be clear, Stannis is not a nice guy. In fact, he's super unpleasant and has some really strange, rigid beliefs. However, the show tended to brush over or omit the scenes from the books that gave me a degree of respect for Stannis. For example, when Davos is brought out of the dungeon after attempting to kill Melisandre he's taken to a meeting where one of Stannis' nobles proposes some insane, cruel revenge mission against civilians. Davos, knowing full well that saying the wrong thing might cost him his life, still outright says how batshit insane that is. Stannis asks everyone else to leave the room and says something like: "Davos! You are absolutely right and that's why I need you!". In both cases, I think the adaptations took more or less morally complicated characters and made them a lot worse than they needed to be.
@Marko777ify
@Marko777ify Год назад
Denethor, Boromir and Smeagol, the most tragic characters.
@anti-liberalismo
@anti-liberalismo Год назад
Finally! Some wise man to recognize Denethor
@Vaille32
@Vaille32 4 месяца назад
Perhaps the most interesting fact about Denethor was that, despite constantly being in contact with Denethor through the Palantir, Sauron was never able to dominate him. The most Sauron could do was wear him down psychologically into depression. Denethor is likely the strongest willed mortal character in all of Tolkien’s LOTR universe.
@Higher_Mind_HM
@Higher_Mind_HM Год назад
Justice for Denethor, son of Ecthelion!! 🙌
@frederiquelorimier8286
@frederiquelorimier8286 Год назад
I really didn't like the way Peter Jackson wrote Denethor. He's a good leader (even if he's not beloved by people, but he's respected) a good ruler and a good strategist. For exemple, I don't know why Jackson didn't show the Lords of Gondor rallying Minas Tirith with their troops, or why he filled the city to the brim with ladies, old people and toddlers, even if it was for the "oh god the orcs are going to kill these poor people!"... In the novel, there are only soldiers, a few civilian healers and a few young boys working as messengers for the army... In the movie, he was shown as some crazy villain, whose hobbys were : eating tomatoes and harassing Faramir. Now when you speak about that character with people, they usually say "He was a villain ! I'm glad he died".
@johnt.inscrutable1545
@johnt.inscrutable1545 6 месяцев назад
I’m glad you finally figured out exactly what you wanted to say and how to say it. I feel you did so brilliantly. And, most importantly, I feel your description of Denethor II to be far more balanced than most videos referencing him. Thank you for the fine work here and in the many videos you have made. Best, JTI
@aserta
@aserta Год назад
Tolkien's ability to render life upon a lifeless group of words is astonishing to this day. So many alive or dead could be cast in Denethor's shoes. He's also in theme with Tolkien's no 100% evil "rule", but somewhat in reverse. His good actions are in balance with his mistakes, which have bad outcomes. And because he had to bear the weight of rule, in Stewardship, his inferior qualities were given more power over him. A man like him would've been better suited as a powerful adviser to a more direct approach person, on the condition that his words be listened. Just my 2 cents, i feel like it was the weight of Gondor's living that crushed Denethor and pushed him off the right track.
@nealmacdonald2226
@nealmacdonald2226 Год назад
Video idea: What are the "devices" of Saruman? We have glimpses of crafting (engineering?) skill of Saruman in The Two Towers... but I've always been interested about the assault on Dol Guldur by the White Council. How did that go down? Did they raise an army? was it a commando mission by the elven ring-bearers? But most of all is the Gandalf reference to their winning the day owing to the "devices of Saruman." One thing I like about these video series is the freedom and depth to which you speculate and ideate around how things might have turned out. Would love to hear speculations on what the "devices" actually are and how they turned the tide on Dol Guldur. I know it's widely understood Sauron feigned a withdrawal from Dol Guldur in the face of the assault but maybe it was only half-voluntary? I have a hard time believing he'd gladly abandon the proximity to the last known location of the ring.
@LeftyScaevola
@LeftyScaevola Год назад
Not forgotten by all as a fallen hero. Standing will to will so long with Sauron, suffering only a partial poisoning of his mind, when even an Istari falls is astounding, on a level with Hurin resisting Morgoth’s eyes. He did fail in a duty that was part the raison d'être of his office, by resisting the Return of the King.
@TheEmperorsChampion964
@TheEmperorsChampion964 Год назад
My favorite denethor meme is Faramir telling him he got a Tau army and denethor responds that Boromir would have chosen imperial guard 😂
@forlornfool221
@forlornfool221 11 месяцев назад
I can literally relate to being a single father of two sons, having the weight of responsibility on ones shoulders, and my mind knows madness.. I am not the best father either.. so i can relate.. Not every Hero is Loved nor liked! Yet unsung heroes none the less!
@edinscot56789
@edinscot56789 8 месяцев назад
In a way, Denethor had far more mental fortitude than Saruman, who was a Maiar. Denethor was a mere man, and yet he communicated with Sauron with years without breaking or falling to darkness.
@istari0
@istari0 Год назад
Denethor did so many things right but sadly they are overshadowed by how badly things went at the end. It was his pride that undid him. He thought he could contend with Sauron and he did extraordinarily well but in the end Sauron was able to bring him to despair. It was also his pride that led him to reject Gandalf's counsel and to refuse that Aragorn was indeed the man who should set on the throne. Much death and destruction was averted by Denethor's earlier actions but even more could have been averted. As far as the movies go, Denethor, like almost all the characters with significant roles, is a lesser character than in the books. I think some of the flaws introduced into movie Faramir are a consequence of the changes made to Denethor.
@niyanlan8928
@niyanlan8928 Год назад
Great video, really well put together, very interesting topic and very well explained - many thanks again
@talesoftheeldar8688
@talesoftheeldar8688 Год назад
Denethor is the most underrated caracter in the legendarium along Fingon and Caranthir.
@cmdrtelcontar5053
@cmdrtelcontar5053 Год назад
Denethor I get, and Fingon to an extent (even though his record as a King wasn't great, his continuing friendship and rescuing Maedhros, even after what Feanor did, is really wholesome). But what do you find so great about Caranthir?
@jika327
@jika327 Год назад
@@cmdrtelcontar5053 Despite Caranthir's dislike towards the Dwarves, he seems to have had pretty good relations with them. He also helped Haladin against the Orcs. Those are his accomplishments that I can come up with
@DamonNomad82
@DamonNomad82 10 месяцев назад
I, for one, was furious with the way PJ mischaracterized Denethor in the film trilogy, not only because it sabotaged the audience's perceptions of Denethor but because it made a complete mockery of Jackson's already bad excuse for sabotaging Faramir's character in the second movie (namely that he wanted Faramir "to have a character growth arc"). Then again, I was already in my early 20s and I had been reading and rereading the books for almost 3/4 of my life up to that point. As for what broke Denethor, the seemingly mortal injury to Faramir was only half of it. His last look into the Palantir would have coincided timewise with Frodo being a prisoner in the tower of Cirith Ungol. It's probable that Denethor would have seen this in the Palantir and naturally assumed, like Frodo himself did at the time, that Frodo's capture meant that the Enemy had recaptured the Ring and that all was lost.
@BattleDrunk
@BattleDrunk 9 месяцев назад
Denethor needed this video as he was decent and nothing like the film portrayed him out to be.
@markstott6689
@markstott6689 Год назад
I just wish that Denethor could have shown Faramir some real love before he died. Whether it's book or film, Denethor will never be a favourite but Faramir I have had a soft spot for ever since my first reading 45 years ago. I guess becoming Prince of Ithilien, retaining the Stewardship of Gondor and getting to marry Eówyn will have to suffice. ❤❤❤
@ntluck1592
@ntluck1592 Месяц назад
Denethor is the ruler Gondor needed in its greatest time of strife. Truly, a leader bred for wartime, though perhaps not a good leader during peace. A hero who might be unsung, yet a hero nevetheless
@TheMarcHicks
@TheMarcHicks Год назад
Denethor is a Tragic Hero in the same manner as those from Ancient Greek & Roman Epics.
@nealmacdonald2226
@nealmacdonald2226 Год назад
Reading many of these comments, I agree: Denethor is a tragic figure handled poorly by the films and worthy of a kind of sober respect. I feel like Gandalf actually offers that in moments in the books and regrets being in opposition with him. I'm reminded very much of the character Salieri in "Amadeus" by Peter Schaffer. There, Salieri is composer of just enough genius to recognize the greatness of Mozart and know--beyond a shadow of a doubt--that he will never match it and be generally un-regarded by history. Compare with Denethor. He is a steward, already in the shadow of greater kings. He is defending a diminished nation of peoples fighting to hold on to things they barely remember and monuments that they can no longer match. Then he is confronted with Thorongil, who steals his father's and his people's affection... like Salieri to Mozart, I imagine that Denethor saw not just a threat to his rule but recognized a greater man. And ultimately, he is left with a lesser son, who had within him to grant his father the one thing: greatness to match those around him and the kings of old. And squandered it. Envy and pride are much sharper when coupled with actual skill and greatness. That's when it cuts most of all, I imagine.
@rickm9244
@rickm9244 8 месяцев назад
I never saw him as evil in the films. Just someone who was lost. Only seeing what what had happen to himself at the very end.
@kylenetherwood8734
@kylenetherwood8734 Год назад
The thing with him being scared that Aragorn, Gandalf and the elves wanted to usurp him, is that he was right. I dont have any direct evidence for Gandalf other than his close relationships with Elrond and Aragorn but the latter two are pretty clear. Elrond personally raised every heir to Isildur even after the line of kings ended in Gondor. Specifically with Aragorn, he claimed Aragorn could only marry his daughter if he became king of Gondor and Arnor and he gave him Anduril reforged from Narsil which was Elendil's sword. Aragorn himself clearly really wanted to be king and went around claiming to be the true king, sometimes at quite inappriate moments (like in Edoras).
@donaldscholand4617
@donaldscholand4617 7 месяцев назад
Good advice at the end there!👍
@fromthecheapseats7126
@fromthecheapseats7126 3 месяца назад
Maybe I’m being too generous, but it seemed to me that Denethor’s film depiction was a result of the difficulty in translating the nuances of his character to the screen, rather than deliberate character assassination like with Stannis Baratheon in “Game of Thrones.”
@giorgikobalava7430
@giorgikobalava7430 8 дней назад
In the books Denethor never told faramir he wished Faramir had died instead of Boromir, what he told Faramir was he wished Faramir had gone to Rivendell instead of Boromir and Boromir had captured frodo and Sam in Ithilien because he thought Boromir would have done what he deemed was right, he would have brought him the ring.. Nor did he send Faramir on a suicidal mission as is depicted in the movies. He didn't hate Faramir. In fact, fear of losing Faramir was what finally broke him...
@willemvanstaden3292
@willemvanstaden3292 7 месяцев назад
If Jackson had made a prelude-clip about Denethor at the beginning of the Fellowship movie, like he did for the Last Alliance, I think more non-readers would LOVE Denethor's character. I personally feel much empathy and respect for Tolkien's Denethor. Then again, I reread the Books every year - so as I age I comprehend his character and dillemmas better. :)
@user-dc4xw8zp4t
@user-dc4xw8zp4t 9 месяцев назад
There was no hope for Gondor, until Isildur’s Bane had been revealed, and destroyed.
@WhoIsCalli
@WhoIsCalli 2 месяца назад
Fair assessment. Thanks for this
@frankydaulman2291
@frankydaulman2291 2 месяца назад
Important deeper perspective particularly for film only fans.
@delb2192
@delb2192 Год назад
Glad to see some Denethor, always liked the poor sod quite a lot, Peter Jackson dealt him an awful hand
@hansdrubal1
@hansdrubal1 Год назад
A lot of great videos and this one is one of your best. There are a lot of Tolkien channels out there. Some good, some bad, some okay but I think yours is the best and most interesting. Keep doing what you are doing.
@aaronbaron3155
@aaronbaron3155 Год назад
Seeing this movie and character the first several times I was liking the way he did the part. Then I watched Fringe and now I just see the whole thing differently. Basically I'm more impressed than ever with the actors range. Now in regards to your video.. I'd say the book would almost seem to have him as maybe not a hero but definitely not the clod he was in the show.
@TheMinskyTerrorist
@TheMinskyTerrorist Год назад
Denethor, Boromir, Galadriel, Gollum, Frodo, the Numenorians, and the Rohirrim are all morally gray at various times but people don't pay attention and actually read
@sayagarapan1686
@sayagarapan1686 Год назад
This is a really excellent and sympathetic analysis. Great work.
@someobserver844
@someobserver844 Год назад
I don't hate the Jackson films, but the portrayal of Denethor actually is a huge problem I have with them. In the book, even if you don't know his backstory, it's understandable that he's bitter and distrustful, and he actually does the best job he can defending Gondor. He's a completely different character in the movie, like Theoden, but even worse.
@davivignola5895
@davivignola5895 Год назад
I always thought Faramir got done so dirty, but his dad may have been done worse.
@johnwiles4391
@johnwiles4391 Год назад
Thank you for this! It has always been a point of annoyance for me how much of a buffoon Denethor was made out to be in the films. I didn't really notice until the films (I had read the books decades previously) but there are no really healthy and productive father/son relationships for any of the main protagonists, only foster or substitute fathers. Consider: Bilbo and Frodo, Aragorn and Elrond, Eowyn and Eomer and Theoden (Gloin and the Gaffer notwithstanding!). I think Peter Jackson et al just turned this up to 11 and focused all the hate on Denethor.
@nathynorthy6916
@nathynorthy6916 2 месяца назад
Denethor "knew the movements of the Fellowship"? 8:35 Were does it says this in the book - or that Denethor even knew that the Fellowship existed?
@commissarkordoshky219
@commissarkordoshky219 Год назад
Catherine the artist is awesome.
@TheHeartlessFour
@TheHeartlessFour Год назад
You’re doing Illúvatar’s work with these videos.
@jaykubisanidiot8657
@jaykubisanidiot8657 Год назад
It does suck when you do your best but the universe seems to conspire against you and make you seem foolish, incompetent or just plain unworthy... You arent but only Eru knows
@bristleconepine4120
@bristleconepine4120 Год назад
Oops, I missed this! Apparently my subscription wasn't bell-ridden. I love this video: Denethor is an antihero, morally gray, sure, but heroic.
@Johnnypaycheck77
@Johnnypaycheck77 7 месяцев назад
Thankyou everytime i watch this part im like damn he just ran 300yds fully ingulfed in flame! 🔥 😂
@mrmoviemanic1
@mrmoviemanic1 Год назад
Two things 1. The idea that Tolkiens works are not more Grey than even Game of Thrones (I highly feel that GOT in many ways is more black and white than LOTR) 2. I don’t think we’re supposed to laugh at Denathors death, it’s very clearly framed as a tragic fall and in some ways it’s a way for Denathor to fully feel the repercussions of his actions as a father to Faramir.
@ppvk2610
@ppvk2610 Год назад
The only good thing regarding Denethor in the movie is the casting, as all the other casting are just as spot on, Denethor is as well. That is almost the only good part of Denethor in the movie. To me that is also the main major flaw in the Trilogy. Such a missed opportunity to not show in his tower room peering into his Palantir. It would heighten the tension so much more. Bring more weight to Sauron, the danger of the Palantir, why Denethor is eho he is. But slso to the confrontation between Aragorn and Sauron through the Palantir as Aragorn was pure and strong willed enough to divert his gaze to where he wanted to see instead of being showed what Sauron wanted him to see... If even Such a strong man as Denethor couldn't ...
@forickgrimaldus8301
@forickgrimaldus8301 Год назад
So basically Denathor is like the Winston Churchill of LOTR, The Right man to lead a Country in Crisis but the worst one to lead it in a time of peace that and people tend to remember him today less for his achievements and more for his faults and his incompetent choices. (Its just that Churchill had the complete opposite problem of Denathor, Denathor is a broken man who was competent at what he does but fails to see it through to succcess while Churchill is stuburn to a fault who pushes anything he says even when its the wrong choice.)
@BelegaerTheGreat
@BelegaerTheGreat Год назад
I myself am all for humans and their power, so the notion of Denethor challenging Sauron over the Palantír always appealed to me. As the time left until the end of the video was running out, I wondered how will you execute the joke. You disappointed me this time.
@billybatts8283
@billybatts8283 Год назад
The films did him dirty and Faramir in Two Towers also. But from a filmmaking point of view, I get it. Don't like it, but understand it.
@paolomesterom6899
@paolomesterom6899 Год назад
Great video!!
@cryptococcusneoformans2389
@cryptococcusneoformans2389 2 месяца назад
leading gondor at weakest and has sauron the darklord as neighbor but manage to hold them back for decade. We only when he most tired and nearly break.
@toddkurzbard
@toddkurzbard Год назад
A question - had Denethor survived, and continued to refuse Aragorn's claim to the crown, what would Aragorn himself do? Would he Acquiesce, or would he try to take the Kingship by force?
@forickgrimaldus8301
@forickgrimaldus8301 Год назад
Well considering this is Tolkien and not GRRM than I would say Aragorn just doesn't take the throne if its the book version at least, Denathor is the guy that suffered the most being leader of Gondor after all and wanting to avoid bloodshed Aragon would willfully abdicate and be a noble man there (its very out of character for Aragon to start a Civil War over the Throne because he is the Last blood relative of the Kings against a man who fought as hard if not harder than him), If its the movie version Denathor would be the one forcefully removed from Office thanks to his incompetence and malicious behaviour.
@alanmike6883
@alanmike6883 Год назад
Did his best but gave in to his despair and pride
@DraconimLt
@DraconimLt Год назад
Great points on Denethor. Well thought out. He may not be the nicest person in Gondor, but he's certainly not the incompetent idiot from the films. Also, the subtitles on this vid are crazy! Apparently 'dinosaur's tactical decisions were fine, when pharamir reports to ministerif, denethor sends him back to Australia'... who the heck are these characters? And Australia? lol! 🤣
@applin121
@applin121 Год назад
Tolkien created a very complex and multilayered character in Denethor II, and he was very badly served by Peter Jackson.
@oscarjosefsson9300
@oscarjosefsson9300 Год назад
To me it is fascinating that the stewards of Gondor ruled for 25! generations without making themselves kings. Now that is some conservative mindset! 💪
@DamonNomad82
@DamonNomad82 10 месяцев назад
That concept is also addressed in the books, as Faramir recalls, in his and his brother's childhood, Boromir asking their father how many generations it would take before the Stewards could claim the throne of Gondor. Their father's response was "fewer, in a lesser kingdom perhaps, but in Gondor a thousand generations would not be enough!"
@chriskroutil1518
@chriskroutil1518 14 дней назад
Would Faramir have survived if Aragorn hadn't healed him?
@yellowhazeproductions
@yellowhazeproductions Год назад
denethor when the ranger with an elf-crush tries to usurp him 🤴🏻
@crimfan
@crimfan 2 месяца назад
Denethor’s biggest issue was excessive pride. For example, he looked into the palantir and got pwned by Sauron’s lies. Of course Saruman had the same thing happen.
@phoule76
@phoule76 Год назад
"Gandalf the Morally Grey"
@chables74
@chables74 Год назад
Algormancy!
@justinah7400
@justinah7400 5 месяцев назад
Denathor's suicide is a cowardly and selfish act. He should have channeled his pain into courage and fearlessness. He abandoned all the women and children to face the end alone.
@thinkwithurdipstick
@thinkwithurdipstick 11 месяцев назад
Hot take: I wouldn’t say Sauron is the stereotypical evil “i just want everything to burn” character. I think he, and many of Tolkien’s villains are more nuanced than that, largely because they are based on our own history and mythology. Sauron doesn’t do the things he does because he is a sadist, he does them because he desires perfect order, and the only means he sees to achieve that end is domination and enforcing his will through brute force. It’s a twisted idea of order and harmony, his aims aren’t evil but the methods by which he pursues them most certainly are.
@xlan8999
@xlan8999 Год назад
Can u do a middle earth mysteries video for the Nazgul?
@AliRadicali
@AliRadicali 11 месяцев назад
TBH I really disliked how cartoonishly evil/gross/weird the movies made Denethor. It feels childish and out-of-place in a movie that otherwise respects the intelligence of its audience, worse, the plot doesn't require it, if anything it is the worse off for putting a deranged idiot in charge and having everyone else (except for Gandalf and Pippin) ignore the problem. I very much would have preferred a more book-accurate depiction, and in hindsight I think we can view the depiction of Denethor as a prelude to the absolute caricatures of characters we saw in the Hobbit trilogy, notably the Master of Lake-town and his gross little henchman.
@TolkienGeek.
@TolkienGeek. 9 месяцев назад
Denethor actually does send Faramir out to protect the outlying ruins of Osgiliath in the books. Which is also a suicide mission.
@DarthGandalfYT
@DarthGandalfYT 9 месяцев назад
I'd hardly call it a suicide mission. 2/3 of Faramir's forces survived, and Faramir was only wounded in the final moments of the retreat.
@TolkienGeek.
@TolkienGeek. 9 месяцев назад
@DarthGandalfYT I believe the only reason 2/3 of Faramir's forces survived is because of Gandalf's involvement. But Denethor still sent him out there, knowing that his son could possibly die.
@raf7305
@raf7305 Год назад
Prefer Theoden of Rohan, master horseman, the lesser of greater sires. 😂
@katsomeday1
@katsomeday1 Год назад
Thanks for this. I never liked Jackson's depiction of Denathor, (or Gimli and Elrond for that matter.)
@elagabalusrex390
@elagabalusrex390 Год назад
In his beginning Denethor was a good, hard-working steward, and an honest, well intentioned man of Gondor, but he was no hero. When it came down to the crunch, rather than join his soldiers in battle for the final showdown, he chose to kill himself (and attempted to murder his son into the bargain as well). Suicide is not an act of heroism - its an act of cowardice, weakness, laziness, and surrender to despair. Furthermore, I would point out that Denny's counterpart in Rohan, Theoden, had also recently seen his country torn apart by enemies, lost a wife, and lost a son but he didn't kill himself - he manned up, took the initiative, got on his horse, picked up his sword, and kicked orc & uruk ass. That's what a hero does.
@DarthGandalfYT
@DarthGandalfYT Год назад
You're right that Theoden suffered similar tragedies. But I'd also say Denethor was more worn down than Theoden. Theoden's reign was largely peaceful, and he did not have to wake up every day and see Mordor just across the river.
@elagabalusrex390
@elagabalusrex390 Год назад
@@DarthGandalfYT No, but he did see Isengard across it. Saruman was a Maia as well, though less powerful than Sauron, I will concede.
@Edward-nf4nc
@Edward-nf4nc 11 месяцев назад
Another blow for Denethor was that Aragorn always advised not to trust Saruman, but welcome Gandalf, but Denethor preferred Saruman, yet in the end, Aragorn's warnings proved to be well grounded! Denethor was proven wrong to trust Saruman! Even if Gandalf was plotting to replace Denethor with Aragorn, which he was, Gandalf still cared for Gondor, but Saruman wanted it destroyed! So, why did Denethor kill himself and try to kill Faramir? Well, he didn't want to see Gondor fall, even if Gondor survived, he would not give up the rule of Gondor to Aragorn, and even if he did not, he knew Faramir would, and he didn't want that. He had lost his wife and eldest son, his remaining son had a burning fever, Sauron's forces outnumbered Gondor's, Rohan was not coming to help Gondor and the Black Ships of Umbar were coming to attack and Sauron had finally snapped Denethor's will and Denethor could not see any reason to live and why should Faramir live just to die when Minas Tirith falls? I think many would have thought and tried to do the same in his position. We have weapons Denethor could not even dream of, but even in WW2 the Japanese preferred death to capture. So, was Denethor a madman? I think not. He just couldn't see any way to win or reason to live or let his son be tortured until he broke and the House of Stewards come to such a painful and shameful end.
@zayedbinimran957
@zayedbinimran957 Год назад
Can you do a video on if orcs joined the last alliance
@alecstronach
@alecstronach Год назад
The reason I still dislike Denethor despite all this is purely because of his distain towards Faramir. Faramir makes one mistake in losing Osgiliath and he was never able to redeem himself. He's his son, he should be forgiving always, nobody is perfect. He was cruel and he knew it. He thought it was justified but in reality it caused more problems than it prevented. Denethor was a good Steward, but a terrible father which affected his ability to effectively run the realm. That is why I dislike him. However, he's a top tier athlete clearly, gold medal in the burning 100M sprint.
@jessesturgeon5327
@jessesturgeon5327 Год назад
I don't like the way Gondor in general was portrayed by the films
@Crafty_Spirit
@Crafty_Spirit Год назад
Yup they seemed quite helpless and stupefied 😒
@eumaies
@eumaies 5 месяцев назад
Ruined the third movie; such a horrible treatment of him.
@regalecusglesne3022
@regalecusglesne3022 Год назад
i imagine peter jackson would've been like "mmh how do i make this complex and tortured character a compelling presence in my movie? I know! I'll make him eat tomatoes sloppily before suddenly going mad!"
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