This was the most important revelation of the Inspiral lore book. Witness was not only an enemy of the Light, it also strived to redefine Darkness in its image and wiped out any alternate usage and interpretations from the universe.
It was only following in the primary directive of the Darkness. The Light gives rise to complexity, the Darkness, to simplicity. The Witness winnowed interpretations of the Dark into a superior, more perfect, form.
@@TheSuperRatt We've recently come to know that this is a flawed understanding of the Darkness, which is based on what we know about the Sword Logic. That interpretation of Darkness really only applies to the Hive, specifically.
@@TheSuperRattAgain, the Darkness is not the same thing as the Sword Logic. Light and Dark are nothing but paracausal forces that don't subscribe to philosophy or morality anymore than gravity does. Any ideology associated with the Darkness comes from its followers, as this video has just proved.
What people forget is that the Witness is NOT the Darkness, it wields it and commands it's powers, but it is not the physical manifestation of it, the Witness is as much a Villain wielding the Darkness as Guardians are heroes wielding the Light (And Darkness)
Super spinfoil here: Witness mostly wields and commands Darkness, but on many occasions it has proven it can talk through our Ghosts (Light). And unless lots and lots of people and lore entries are lying to us, Ghosts are made from the Traveler's Light and have no connection to Darkness. Which leads me to believe this MIGHT be true: - Witness was actually at one time a being of the Light, but it was caused some pain/grief/loss that it attributed to the Traveler, so it decided to wield the Darkness against the Traveler and all the races/planets the Traveler impacted. -
@@JoeRay119 @@JoeRay119 I'll go down this hole with you but take a slight right. I believe the Traveler is a construction of the Gardner and it was effectively the begining of the "new rule". With that in mind the witness has to be the same for the Winnower. We know these two to be at the begining so I'm running with the idea that they are the manifestation of their respectives. This makes the story of Destiny connect a bit more. We've known the traveler to be chased around by the witness like a "game" of cat and mouse. We know in it's wake, the traveler "created" life which was a stipulation of the new rule. I believe the veil then must be the intersection of the two forces. Logically the traveler prefers choice and so it would leave the veil as is thus not to link with darkness and remove that choice. However the witness appears to want the veil to connect with the traveler. I believe our ghosts are not of light nor darkness but of whatever the veil is. This has to be why our ghosts regardless of the skin placed on it shows its self in segments when reviving us. Very distinctly appears as a sphere surrounded by triangles/pyramids. That has to be whatever the hell the final shape is. Remember ghosts only come to those who have ALREADY DIED. Life is introduced to darkness by way of a ghost...or the power of the veil. BOOM lol
@@ericpeterson818 I actually love all of this. Well done. Maybe then some parallels can be drawn between the Veil and the NIne's attempt at forming life with the Cocytus gate.
@@ericpeterson818something that still remains unclear is what the heck is that statues veiled women in every single pyramid and the deep stone crypt. It has to be the winnowed cus that’s what Clovis looked towards in clarity control and it was from the darkness. Unless it’s the entity of light just like how the witness is to the darkness
What I also like about this is that it harkens back to the Red War, what happened to Ghaul, and the inherent differences between light and darkness. To wield the light, you must be deemed worthy and are given it as a gift. To wield the darkness, you must make yourself worthy and take the power through your own force of will. That's why when Ghaul forcibly took the light the Traveler was able to reject him. But the Darkness cannot reject the Witness even if it does not approve of what they are doing; the Witness wields the power of the darkness "fair and square" as it were and can do with it as they please.
I really like how the more we learn about the Darkness, the more it's presented more as a neutral force than something inherently truly evil. Kind of like how there are Guardians who have done some horrible things even while purely using the Light.
Darkness is about reductionism You either make everything into yourself, eliminating everything that isn't you// Make everything not you into you..... or join everything together Interesting that the same base principle results in either continuous genocide or a happy Hive mind
I think this shows how The Witness doesn't just want to wipe out the light, but all paracausality. As Calus puts it, The Witness wishes to cut the strings and make room for the in between. While it is using the darkness, that's kind of an act of fighting fire with fire. The Witness wipes out all paracausality. The only darkness that is allowed is that which contributes to the eventual ending of all darkness.
I pointed this out in a different creators video, but the interesting thing about Darkness being tied to pschic power, and so to divination, makes a sort of perfect sense. The Darkness can be used to access the memories of the past, and it seems to be a perfect recall of, if nothing else, the subjective experience of those who came before. But Darkness is paracausal, and so unbound by the laws of physics, space and time. If one could use Darkness to access the memories of those who came before, then it should also be capable of accessing the "memories" of those who will come, which would explain divination. It's unreliability is because the Light is also in play, and so generates different futures and possibilities, making it more like seeing the broad strokes instead of anything concrete; "make your own fate" and all that. It also explains why those associated with the Darkness, or the Witness at least, would view the Light as related to failure and death. If the Darkness keeps a perfect memory of seemingly everything and sets things in stone, then a paracausal force that can make things forget or turn the guaranteed into just a possibility could rightfully be viewed as bringing a sort of death to those things with forgetting and a failure with change.
@Janus want another mind blowing thought of mine? The Witness is the paradox in the Winnower's argument. Think about it, existence is the struggle to exist, that which can't hold on to existence never deserved it to begin with, any unnecessary existences are doomed to suffer from their inefficiencies, and the Final Shape is defined in Unveiling with lines like; - They have no purpose except to subsume all other purposes. There is nothing at the center of them except the will to go on existing, to alter the game to suit their existence. They spare not one sliver of their totality for any other work. The Witness is certainly powerful enough to alter the game to suit its needs probably better than any other individual in the universe, and its purpose is to subsume all other purposes by putting an end to pain, which it would probably argue is the greatest moral imperative. It's the ultimate champion of the Winnower's philosophy, but the problem is that the Witness is taking it to its logical endpoint. What if no existence is necessary? What if, because existence is the struggle to exist and that struggling is a sort of pain, the best way to minimize pain in the universe is to undo the mere possibility of it happening, by undoing existence in its entirety? And why shouldn't it try to do this? After all, if it fails, it ends up finding an existence that was truly necessary, and if it succeeds, well, nothing deserved existence in the first place it seems. Which puts the Winnower in a tricky situation because the bedrock of its entire philosophy is that existence is the thing that matters most, but its most powerful follower abhors existence and is actively trying to undo everything, and thanks to the nature of the Traveler, the Light and the Gardener, it has a half decent chance of erasing everything now that it's opened the portal. At least, that's what I've gathered so far.
@@kyleespinoza7201 This is all poopydix. The darkness is just like dark and stuff. You know? You're overthinking it. It's just people like wanting to save on their spacelight bills and stuff. Yao Ming? U bro'm sayn? I pop smoke, I pop p*ssy, I pop corn, I was born to pop-pop since the day I was born, I pop-pop tilda muthafu*kin casket drop, I pop-pop, fu*k around and yo azz get popped Hot barz for dayz y'all
The story of the ecumine in this lore book is extremely interesting for a few reasons. One, they called the Darkness "The Deep", which we've heard before, of course. However, I think that it is their understanding of The Deep and not that if the Hive that will be fundamental to the Season of the Deep. Remember, Bungie likes to leave little hints about future seasons and expansions, and they're not always immediately obvious. The next thing I find interesting is that the Ecumine weren't solely one species. Their civilization was enormous and likely included thousands of members species. Our new Leviathan doesn't seem to be a Worm God, or even a Worm. When Sataria mentioned an "enemy of the Witness" on Titan, I don't think she necessarily meant Sloan. It is perhaps possible that this creature is a survivor of the Ecumine. Perhaps even the representative from the Lore book. Next is how insanely similar in function the Ecumine's "network" or "virtual world" is to the CloudArk. We know Nezarec had the Veil on his ship and that Savathun killed him and stole it. Personally, given how the Ecumine viewed both the Darkness and shared consciousness, I think it's very possible that the Veil was stolen by Nezarec under orders by the Witness after Oryx removed the Ecumine from the board. Look at how the Witness uses the Hive. They're basically locusts that come in, eradicate and devour civilizations, and then move on to the next. They even tried to do the same with Sol, but the Traveler repelled them after Savathun initiated her plot. Oryx was nothing more than a kill squad commander that only needed a cause to kill for. The Witness just pointed in a direction, and the Worms aimed the Hive at the target. It is my opinion that the Ecumine were destroyed so that the Witness could claim the Veil from the ashes. This creature on Titan is the true enemy of the Witness, whose help we will likely need to stop it.
Nezarec refers to the veil as "the sapid secret of [the witness]'s first victims". The ecumene weren't quite the first civilization wiped out by the hive, but they were close. If they did use the veil like the neomuni do, they may not have been the first
The Kugu lore tab is strangely reassuring, their whole bit about the dark being the warm comfort of sleep and knowing that the other is out there from it
I really wished the witness did stuff in lightfall. As cool as final shape may be i feel like his first actual introduction was a disservice him imo. But i will say his display of power was Fascinating.
Hearing that perhaps Death isn't the end gives me more incline to the idea that the Gaurdians are the creation of Dark and Light, seeming resurected to a former healthy form and being able to weild both Darkness and Light. Which acording to Savathun is something special about us Gaurdians because she is no longer capable of taping into the Darkness like she used to after resurecting.
This is the proof I needed people to talk about. This shows that The Witness isn't the big bad opposite of the gardener. He's simply someone using the darkness in a way that no one else was: to destroy everything.
This isn’t proof of that at all. And yes, he is. The Ecumene and the Qugu were civilizations that used Darkness to have their civilizations prosper and flourish. He didn’t destroy them because they used Darkness in a good way, Byf’s theory on that is incorrect here (as he’s been incorrect on a lot of things lately). By the same logic, the Witness would have no reason to cause our Collapse since we didn’t use Darkness and neither did the Eliksni. He destroyed them because they were alive and flourishing, something the Traveler (Gardener) values.
I'm getting the feeling the witness and the Gardner (traveler) are brothers/siblings and the second lore note echos their relationship. It feels like the witness is trying to achieve unity and in doing so the traveler must die or "drink from the deep" so that they are once again united. Because they both exist as apparent equals it would stand to reason that they were (or weren't) conceived at the same time. If this is true they would unquestionably be related on a level similar to siblings even if there isn't a direct relation. We never hear of the witness trying to destroy the traveler and only to reach it.
@@ericpeterson818Yeah the Witness definitely ‘wants’ something that the Traveler or whoever commands it has access to and only the Traveler has access to. We know the Witness to be incredibly powerful, even powerful enough to burn the stars with its rage, but it needs something that the Traveler has and what The Witness nor anyone else don’t have. My guess? Whatever is in that portal. Anyway, I’m interested in your comment because in a way you’re right… we just always assumed that The Witness wanted to destroy the Traveler, but that final cutscene in Lightfall tells us that he is… kind to whatever the Traveler is? It says things like: “The universe makes us all victim of its pain” (this means he can somewhat relate? He does mentions that he wants to destroy pain to Calus) “You.. more than any suffer both fates” (It knows the traveler to a personal extend and talks like he feels can emphasize?) “Be free” (Kills the traveler? Is he making it free by making that portal? We know that the witness wants to seek an end to ‘pain’ reminding me to the sword logic and the hive, but we know that the Hive’s version of The Final Shape isn’t completely accurate) Idk I don’t think they’re related by blood, but maybe by cosmic memory or something we don’t understand. Even though the Witness seems oddly kind to the Traveler, the Traveler obviously doesn’t want to do shit with it and just runs away every time, implying that they’re definitely disagreeing about something. Almost like a older brother hurting his younger sister and when she runs away he doesn’t understand why.
I don't think it's trying to destroy everything. It's trying to achieve the Final Shape. And as this video puts it very well, death/destruction =/= finality. What the Witness is working towards is beyond the death of everything, it's building something new beyond the life/death of our universe. "Finality takes shape" it says when it links with the Veil and makes the purple triangle portal
@@equestrianmidnight5619 You need to be careful for publically criticizing Byf. Especially here. He has a nasty habit of removing comments critical of him, or outright blacklisting RU-vid Accounts that offend him in any way. Unlike him, I care about free speech, im just telling you to be careful on what you say here. Regardless, i am on Byfs side here, the actual Lore itself has shown that Darkness does not inherently lead to corruption and death, as the Gugu and Ecumene were able to live with it for Centuries and it never caused them to turn out like the Hive. The Witness's influence is at fault here. Its like the Catholic Church wanting to wipe out any other religion, and any other interpretation of their religion. The Witness sees itself as the ONLY truth of Darkness.
What a haunting and interesting video. I'm not sure if this holds any water but maybe the witness wanted to fully control darkness itself? And these civilizations that seemingly tapped into it and had a haigher understanding of it had to be wiped out to allow that to happen?
Imagine if at one point when we master darkness, we meet our former selves in the deep, the person we were before the collapse. Maybe even merge with them to become something more, even give a cool name like the eclipsed or something
My feel was that they did interact and revere the darkness, buy they empowered a different set of logic and power than that the witness harbored. Maybe it even caused like a debuff for them, so in eliminating the conflicting ideas, there would be fewer forms the darkness could take. Thus allowing the final shapes more of its depth.
What I find most interesting here is that the Ecumene and the Kugu basically had their own version of Neomuna's CloudArk. Maybe it's not the Veil that made them so but the similarities are way too distinct to ignore. I also think another very big clue as to the nature of Darkness are Throne Worlds themselves, described as "Kingdoms of thought," there's definitely some sort of similarity there.
It’s a whole argument to go down but I’m guessing lightfall being the way it was story and lore wise is because the plan is to fill in the pieces and improve as the year continues, it sucks but that kinda seems like the routine at this point
I wonder if Bungie could add taken enemies from other species to the taken forces, maybe taken ecumene or kugu units, would be a good way to expand the taken and kinda write off the whole thing where despite oryx taking many species, we only see the 4 original species in their ranks.
Not sure if this has been said, but I think we can definitely say that the witness above all wishes to be seen as infallible and inevitable. It presents itself as the unavoidable and sole end. Even it’s goal speaks to this theme; “the Final Shape.” Nothing else, no other option. So anything that would bring that into question or contrast would absolutely have to be expunged, and any records of (in its eyes) dissent would not only be removed but likely seen as an existential threat to the very core of its being and purpose (which it likely sees as one and the same). I’m further believing that the Witness isn’t the winnower from the stories, or at least… that story was way less credible than we’ve been led to believe or suspect if it is.
It's definitely not the Winnower, since the Winnower approved of the Final Shape (i.e. the Vex). The Witness' version of the Final Shape seems to be completely unrelated to the Vex.
I don't think he can top Savathun. She messed with us for years, manipulated us for a year as Osiris, manipulated us more after we found out, and then turned our views on the Light upside down, before being killed in the best story mission boss fight ever
@Krishna I mean, she was a Thorn in our side for years. She used Riven to drive Uldren to madness and open the gates to the Dreaming City so that we may kill Riven and purify her heart. All so that Savathûn could use Riven's wish magic to curse the Dreaming City. That's just one of many of her transgressions against us. She's our enemy until, whenever she returns, joins us or leaves us alone.
@@CrustaceanQueen Everything we’ve been dealing with since D1 has been the Witness’s fault. It caused our Collapse, it was the reason the Eliksni came to our solar system, and its lie created the Hive. It has our Traveler in its grasp and is threatening to end our civilization. Savathun’s more in it to survive. She doesn’t want to wipe out humanity. She just doesn’t care about us.
The Withness kind of reminds me of The Borg. In a sense that makes me wonder if the Withness is not destroying, but merely collecting or absorbing other civilizations to its own? Anyway, I love your narrative and your intriguing thoughts on Destiny's lore. And I'll eagerly await the next! 👍🏻
It's really interesting to see how the darkness can be used. We know it is connected to memory thanks to deepsight, but seeing how other races used it in such unique ways really shows the light and darkness are just forces and not moral affiliations.
What happened to the Taken of the civilizations that where wiped out by Oryx such as the Ecumene or the Emperor Ravens, why haven't we seen any of them? Did Oryx keep them in the ranks of his Taken for use in future genocidal campaigns? Or, are Oryx's genocidal campaigns not truly complete until EVERY specimen is wiped out, Taken or not, and so Oryx destroys his Taken army every time when they're all that's left and no longer serve a purpose?
The Witness speaks much about knowing pain and being our salvation from it And if Darkness really does preserve one's existence within it even after death... Does that mean that the Witness strives to relieve all living beings of pain of existence and therefore pain and loss through just wiping everyone out and preserving them together forever within the Deep?
The language used simultaneously makes me think of water and computing... Water or some other liqiud formed into lakes rivers and waterfalls or an ocean. A Vex milk ocean world... Could the Ammonite, Ecumene and Qugu be antecedents to the Vex tribes/factions on Nessus and other planets/moons in the present?
In many ways, this video gives me many strange ideas. Such as the thought, what if the pyramids are not as we see them? Like some of them are actually communicating without the Witness, like a very subtle call for help. When we communed with the Pyramid in Luna. Who were we really speaking with? Was it the Witness? Or was it the Pyramid itself? And seeing the size of the pyramids actually compared to the Traveler. What if they’re really smaller pieces of one bigger structure?
So from what I’m gathering the Witness does not warship the Darkness, it only uses it for it’s own personal gain and does not care about who warships it
is Darkness the afterlife in destiny's universe? think about it. Light creates and represents life, which you can argue is a physical thing, so wouldn't it make sense it's opposite, the Darkness, holds that life after death (no physical form, but mind/memory lives on)?
So here's a question: do the (non-Savathun-Brood) Hive worship the Witness as an entity, or only as the current highest practitioner of the Sword Logic? So, if Xivu Arath felt she was powerful enough (or Oryx had we not killed him and turned him into a mediocre scout rifle), would she try to topple the Witness in accordance with Sword Logic, or would she view that as heresy?
hive form of worship is tithing the destruction they cause to their respective gods. the witness is not even in the hive hierarchy. Hes beyond it. to the worm gods and the hive, they believe the witness to be the deep itself. a thing that they probably cant conquer
I don't know if the attacks on these species were deliberately because of their worship, but if the Darkness holds within it the lives and memories of all those who came before, then it makes sense to me that the Hive, sent forth by the Witness, would live in servitude to the Sword Logic: an endless bloodbath of death. For death simply leads to Darkness, and therefore the Witness, who is the current central wielder of Darkness. How the endless death cycle benefits him, I'm unsure; theres obviously missing pieces here. But I refuse to believe the connection between the Hive Sword Logic and the Darkness' interaction with death is simply coincidence.
Maybe we need to look at the "goodness" defined in the "Light" and "Dark" and just see them as "powers" and not associate with good or evil. As "good" and "bad/evil" is a matter of perspective. Each society/people wants to continue on, thrive, and be happy with their existence; how that society goes about achieving that based on their morality is within the scope of their society. The once "enemies" of the Tower are now our allies as the story has unfolded.
Woke up in the middle of the night to the spoiled cutscene for the end of the season. Just a public service announcement for those who don't know and don't want to be spoiled. So beware, it's out there.
Fun Theory: Osiris will be utterly reborn in the Dark. He will master Strand, and then collaborate with his old colleague Toland to craft a Throne World for himself. Or perhaps to take another throne space over? Who knows. Osiris wielding Strand was an absolutely massive reveal that almost everyone forgot. But the end result will be an Osiris who is more powerful and dangerous than ever before, while leading the way on demonstrating a "good Dark Guardian".
An interesting note about the Qugu is that, thanks to his concept art, Nezarec might be a member of that species, with the form he takes in Root of Nightmares being a result of this trait. Zavalr has a short video talking about this idea. That does make me wonder, how did he become a disciple if his people - assuming he was a Qugu - worshipped the Darkness in a different fashion to how the Witness worships/wields it? What set him apart from them? Maybe his "God of Pain" moniker originated from his own species, and he was a sort of outlier with his way of thinking, kind of like Rhulk? Going off this idea, maybe the unknown disciple in another lore page could have been an Ecumene, with the Witness finding candidates from each of the worlds razed by its disciples and servants? Interesting stuff
qugu are like dream people, nezarec is all about nightmares. there is correlation. he was probably edgy and stuff. So when the darkness gang came to destroy his world, they saw potential. Rhulk trained him up and thus the god of pain was born
I bet the other Darkness civilizations were destroyed by the Witness because they lived with Darkness, with the Deep, in peace and harmony. A counterpoint to the Witness’s need to end everything to attain the final shape. Can’t live that “truth” if all the other ways to live in harmony and darkness cancel out your reasoning in your beliefs! Witness has boundless rage and hatred to see past that which they deem insignificant, even a peaceful harmony in darkness.
Yep, this, although I doubt Darkness had anything to do with it as humanity and the Eliksni also flourished without Darkness and both civilizations were attacked anyway.
What if darkness was once part of the traveler or like the other side of the coin to it and then the witness stole it and now hes trying to steal the rest of it...what if having all of darkness (3 subclasses) and all of the light is what can cause the final shape and the only thing that can stop the final shape, what if thats why we will have to get the final sub class.
I like this too because there was a Darkness Artifact in Shadowkeep that was a little ball and looked like what the re-formed Traveler looked like at the finale event of Season of Arrivals
That'd be extremely disappointing. But it fits with Bungie's insistence on "not overdelivering," so they can stay in their comfy box of reskinning weapons and enemies to sell to you over again while ignoring game breaking bugs such as the infinite loading screen in the New Light introduction campaign.
I wonder if they power to Take will somehow fall to us. There's no real opposite of Arc (electricity) aside from the fact you can reverse polarity of electricity and end up with a negative... Or polarized version. Sort of like like, ya know... The Taken. If only there was some Titan with something to do with the Taken to give it to us...
As a long time viewer, I just want you to know that what keeps me coming back is the rumbling cadence of your voice weaves vocal tapestries, painting vast landscapes within the imagination, all wrapped in a soft warmth that feels equal parts teacher and home. Keep at it
The Sword Logic seems more and more to be a creation of the Witness, and not as tied to the darkness itself. That would be a reason for the Witness to put these civilizations on his hitlist. For the final shape to be achieved, even the the perception of the darkness must be what the Witness demands, as opposed to the inherently neutral force that it actually is.
The Witness’ action to eliminate all other Darkness philosophies or regimes reminds me of the Catholic and Protestant responses to the first Anabaptists in Europe. Here you had Christians who read the same Bible, worshipped (theoretically, at least) the same Jesus, but whose conclusions as to what to do with that sacred text and teachings posed a threat to those who held power as a result of being Lutheran or Catholic. Can’t have people out there taking Jesus more seriously than the King, now, can you? I think we see this in the way the Witness would have us believe that it IS the Darkness, and didn’t seem bothered to correct us for about, what…eight years? Up till Witch Queen? Also, isn’t it interesting? Byf and Myelin and Aztecross and so many of us talk about the characters interacting with “us.” No one does that for Lord of the Rings: “We fought the Dark Lord before his very gates.” Or Harry Potter: “We lost many friends and family to the Death Eaters.” We all feel and identify these characters, but video games let us interact with them. I dunno. Second Monday thoughts.
I'm not at all surprised that there are positive, and indeed even romantic, inspiring, and comforting, views on the Darkness. Just because the Witness is seemingly the universe's most adept user of Darkness doesn't mean that it is inherently an evil force. Between the Risen Warlords of Earth, the Lucent Hive, Queen Mara, Elsie Bray, and Guardians who have been wielding Darkness since Beyond light, we know that Light =/= "good" and Dark =/= "bad." It follows that if Light isn't an inherently good force, its opposite in Darkness isn't inherently an evil force. People can use either power for good or evil, and the Witness definitely has chosen evil. I don't think it would be at all unreasonable to say that the Qugu and Ecumene would have happily joined the Sol Alliance if they had survived to the present day and been in contact with at least one member group. I mean, if it hadn't been for Oryx learning how to Take, the Ecumene probably would have stomped the Hive into dust all on their own...now imagine Ecumene planet-busting ships carrying Cabal shock troops, Eliksni Servitors, Awoken Corsairs, and rowdy Guardians into battle. The Witness may not be able to see the future but the Witness does seem smart enough to not let powerful enemies that have a diametrically opposite belief system just hang out, waiting to meet new friends.
So I think Oryx was more responsible for the destruction, to me The Sword-Logic leaves no room for differing opinions and any civilization the worshiped the Darkness/Deep and did not recognize the Sword-Logic would be viewed as a blasphemy by the Hive.
Someone pls debunk me, i cant stop thinking about how awfully 'human-like' the Witness is, the arms, fingers, eyes, nose, faces coming out of its head. And in comparison to the different species' features aswell, like bungie couldve made it so much more different like the Thralls, Hive in general, Cabal...
I enjoyed your video but... as you were reading the text I turned away and listened and it was like hearing you read some deep poetry. It seemed the kind of poetry where you're taking in the feel of the story but the details don't seem worth remembering. It's powerful entertainment but it's not 'real' because as you're reading the text I am imagining the author of this fiction, this particular kind of science fiction, I'm imagining him/her writing this as part of his/her job at Bungie (or as a contract worker for Bungie). Right away you can tell it's not important content... the details. Later on while we are playing a future Season of Destiny we will only need a one or two line summary of this whole part of the story in order to understand. We're not going to need the whole poem in order to understand. Also I pay attention when suddenly the minds-eye starts to see the author doing some random typing of gobbledygook rather than going on a mental journey guided by the author. This prods me to recall that the typing is unimportant. I didn't need to hear this. Some other high level summary of the situation will be more appropriate for me, later, as a person playing the game. The gobbledygook is too much. 'My name is Byf' did a good job of making the video and narrating, reading the story, but... as I said above, the story is too much detail for what it is trying to accomplish. Thanks for the video, I did enjoy it. Cheers!
Further thoughts: I read dozens of the comments here and they are very good, lots of interesting analysis, lots of creative gyrated ideas. So at this point I am reminded that all of this is a "Soap Opera." In other words we are analyzing Dr. Drake "Jessica" Ramoray's return to the story (Dr. Drake Ramoray had fallen down an elevator shaft and was in a coma, so he received a brain transplant from Jessica Lockhart, returning 'Joey' to a role in "Days of our Lives"). All of this, everything in D2 and D1 are a soap opera. My point is about the timing of the story - everything has to be dragged out unnaturally in order for the game to continue, we need continual new content so the big picture story gets extremely gyrated as time goes on. Villains can't be killed off right away because everything is needed to extend the story. Whatever is going to happen in Destiny 2 in the future it all has to allow the game to continue. Things will not happen in "real world" fashion, they will happen in "soap opera" fashion. Characters will get brain transplants and we will play along because we want to continue watching our soap opera every day. Back when I was a young teenager enjoying summer vacation there wasn't much going on and so I accidentally started watching "Days of our Lives" during the day and I got hooked on the story. When some fun activities started taking shape I realized I was stuck watching the soap opera at a certain time of the day... (this was in the old days when you had to watch a show at a certain time, and that was it). You feel you must keep watching to find out how the brain transplant turned out, yet you could stop watching and then re-tune-in months later and the story is still being dragged out - because it's a soap opera! That is what we all are actually experiencing now, here in the Destiny 2 world. This all has to continue so Bungie can continue the business and so we all can keep playing a "Looter, Shooter" game. Why don't we just recognize we enjoy the Looter, Shooter, and all of this 'story' is gyrated mental creative gymnastics. Some of the fiction we will accept go far beyond Dr. Drake "Jessica" Ramoray's brain transplant. It's all entertainment. We should keep track of it being gaming fun. It's not actually a serious activity. We can treat it seriously but at times it may be smart to realize it's a soap opera. Cheers!
@@TheOriginalRaster You misunderstand the meaning of "lore". Everyone knows this is not the real entertainment Bungie has to offer. But when you are reading/watching/playing a game, you must completely immerse yourself in the story to actually feel what the characters are feeling. You must disregard the knowledge that "this is a game" and accept what is in front of you as completely real. Of course, the person writing the lore also has to make the story believable/interesting in order to help you maintain that state. Only then can you enjoy the story to the fullest. Also, you said, "and all of this 'story' is gyrated mental creative gymnastics". That is the definition of a story, no? Honestly, while I did like Destiny 2 and played it for a few hundred hours, I lost that enjoyment from the game. But I still enjoy reading the lore the writers come up with. (And I am very unhappy about the recent lack of quality of the afformentioned lore. But so is everyone else.) What I am trying to say is: for some people, the lore itself is more enjoyable than the game. Byf enjoys both of these, and continues to post these kinds of videos because it is fun to do and think about (At least that is my assumption. I can't definitively say what a random person on the internet I have no connection to is really thinking.) This may seem like I am trying to argue with you (I really am not) but I just wanted to tell my view of the things and inform you why such theories arise about the lore. All of my speech can be reduced to: "Some people think it is fun." I hope I managed to explain my view of thinking. P.S. English is not my native language. Please pardon any mistakes in grammar/syntax/punctuation/spelling.
@@honourwhitehill5918 Thanks HonourWhitehill, I appreciate your comment here, I see your point. Your explanation is very helpful. I am still playing the game (hundreds of hour in) and I will likely get a bit more out of the game by adopting your idea. English *is* my native language and in my opinion your writing is great. Cheers!
What I find interesting is that The Witness's Vision of What the Darkness should be is also called into question by Their own Disciples, yet they have a definitive vision for what it should be by the fact that the Witness wants to destroy certain societies that sit outside of it. It seems the Witness is fine with variations of certain philosophies as long as they sit inside of the Umbrella Ideology of their design, So going forward I think we should marker the commonalities of the Disciple's philosophies. This is what makes the Witness such a Scary and Disturbing Villian because we know that The Darkness can be used a force for good but chooses not to, instead directly obfuscating that opportunity to instead deal out Death (Oryx) and Pain (Nezarec). Reminds me a lot of the Ideas of biblical Satan and Sin, How God delivers Freedom as a trial of Man's Character and How Demons try to steal that freedom by binding you to the Alure of Sin, or a more contemporary character in Thanos in that both He and The Witness have a very specific ideology that they believe the world should follow and both will commit Omnicide in order to imprint that belief into reality.
Warmth of life, coldness of death. Divided by life, together in death. Does that make any sense or am I just reading too much into few words that stuck with me? I mean, that's basics of thermodynamics almost: Heat/more energy makes things move faster and move away form each other, While cold/less energy makes things move slower and nearer each other.
This pretty much sets my opinion until Bungie shows otherwise that the Witness is simply the number one bad guy user of the Darkness, and those two civilizations that weren't utilizing the darkness "correctly" had to be wiped out, especially considering him using the Traveler as a portal means he wasn't concerned with the Travelers shell, and more so trying to access where the Gardener and the Winnower are for either higher power, or answers to see if he's right. Nothing the Witness has done has really shown to me that he's the Winnower, nor the Traveler shown that it's the Gardener rather they are the tip of the spear of utilizing those paracausal forces, respectively. Just like the Guardians have shown that by utilizing both has pretty much laid bare that there isn't anything intrinsically good or bad concerning one or the other, rather the completely blind devotion to one can often be more harm than good, i.e. those obsessing over the darkness powers (like in the lore of Sola's Scar sword which caused Aunor to kill him), or for Shayura's example that her complete prejudice to the darkness hilighted ignorance of what the darkness is by just presuming anyone that has dared to utilize it as being inherently evil and must die.
The Witness seeks the uniformity that will come from killing everything alive except itself. But the Darkness itself only wants to bring living beings together, in unity of mind-space. The Light wants to foster life, and find new patterns and designs to keep things interesting; and the Traveler works toward the same goal.
I got a question....do we get these lore books in-game? As in do our guardians get these books from somewhere or is this like a 4th wall thing where Bungie wants the PLAYER to know about this stuff but its not something the vanguard know about🤔
I notice they said “drink” of the deep. To drink it is to take it in, in portion. The Witness, Rhulk, and Worms all say “drown” in the deep. As if you let it be all consuming.
Big picture wise some of these ancient races were utilizing these forces in ways we haven’t even fathomed. I wouldn’t be shocked if we don’t find out we still using training wheels in paracausal power and haven’t touched high end Light usage yet. We just now are even seeing high end Dark usage
Byf, your comment about death not being the end got me thinking about the fanatic who, dispite not being a lightbarer, can come back to life from byond. I presume guardians are still doing the strike even though it was vaulted, but why doesnt the fanatic try to resurrect other barons? This may be something i missed, but how has it not yet come into play?
Can't watch the video yet, but my brain went into the idea that the Witness has been using the Darkness to weed out civilizations because the nature of the power Of the Darkness is more potentially destructive than the Light. And then if someone is interesting and broken enough, takes on a Disciple to carry out it's will from the survivors if any.
So I'm a little confused, is "the deep" now being used as a synonim for the darkness? I thought the deep was specifically linked to the worm gods and their power, Rhulk refers to rising from the deep in the raid, and he's not telling guardians to resist the darkness, collective obligation indicates that's the opposite of what he wants. He also mentions how he rose from the deep, and that certainly doesn't mean he rose out of darkness.
The witness is a being that understands that there is only one true outcome to the universe(in destiny) is the final shape and it simply uses darkness as it deems that the darkness is much more "free" and "powerful" compared to the light. The Witness and the traveler BOTH knew about this since a time so long ago it may as well be the beginning of "time" that the universe had but only 1 final shape so it becomes a battle between ALL beings in the universe regardless of how you feel about it. The Witness has gathered the powers it needs to bring the final shape to the universe and I believe that the witness itself doesn't truly know what that "shape" is but because of how darkness makes you feel (sword logic) it thinks that being the last thing in the universe to survive is the final shape. But the idea of the final shape does remind me heavily of the vex trying to make themselves a "law of the universe"
When we got Stasis it was aggressive powerful disgusting, a tool clearly not for peaceful coexistence, Strand however is a connection, and a curator of peaceful coexistence. It's telling that the ability we get from the witness is used to as a tool for war, while the ability we find for ourselves is used for defence.
Could season of the Deep be referring to this darkness Deep or did I miss something when listening about next season. If does refer to this, could being in teaser be a survivor of purged believers and they know a weakness of the Witness. Since they had shared mind and found weakness to late to save themselves. Then sent individuals to warn other groups to eventually stop the Witness.
This is just a theory of what the next darkness subclass is. With each having to do with strength, force, control of will, and sword logic, I have to think that the next will have to do with swords or something. The reason is stupid in my mind but it correlates with the names of each darkness subclass, each starting with S (for now till we see in the next dlc trailer) so you have to think it starts with S
I feel like the light and dark saga is going to remove light and darkness as concepts entirely by lifting the umbrella of what they describe. It opens the door foe the destiny universe it's powers and subdivisions of enemy factions to be more intricate and nuanced if they don't have to fit into a binary. Perhaps we misunderstand paracausality too
I think the darkness isn’t necessarily evil it’s dependent on the wielders of the power, the witness and oryx yes they wield darkness but aren’t the embodiment of it, for instance we’ve wielded darkness and it hasn’t/didn’t corrupt us therefore it’s up to the wielders to define it. Yes the witness used a paracausal power (the veil) to dissect the traveler and therefore darkness prevailed over the light but who’s to say the traveler is the embodiment of light and not just a herald/vessel?
The sword logic doesn’t prefer the darkness. It just prefers the strongest, and only some flavors of those races wielding the darkness are fit to survive, according to its logic.
The Darkness and The Light are concepts we, humans, are forcing on amorphous energies in the world. The Witness is not the creator of either, as The Witness only destroys. The Witness is the Pruner of the Garden, not the Sower. The Witness, quite literally, will be there to Witness the final death of sentient life. Whether that life worships him or not is immaterial.
I think the witness knew about the power of strand but did not want us to discover it because unlike stasis which he help us learn about BTW which deals with control strand is about freeing the mind which is counter to what he wants. He knows that the power of strand could be used to stop him. So any beings that had this knowledge had to be silenced.
Darkness exists without a source, but the light must have one. Is it also like this for these two paracausal forces? Can there be Light where there is no Traveller? Are there other sources of Light?
The Witness is the collective of an entire civilization of Light and Darkness users, the Witness is the most adept being at wielding the Light and Darkness
Could the realm that the witness traveled to be linked to the Deep or that other side when death occurs? If death is not the end, then what do those fallen (not Fallen) go? Is life and death “doorways” between realities more deeper than the Ascendant Plane and our own?
