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Doug, When are you going to do an episode where hashtag king talks shit about you and one million dollar cash heads up game? Is this part of his strategy to get you on tilt? Or, he crossed the line.
Doug Polk Poker is it a actual rule too keep your big chips at the front? I've often heard the dealer tell people too move them too the front but never seen anyone get a penalty for it?
What is interesting is that he admits he was doing hand analysis on his youtube video and that he picked up on his tell after his real stack was revealed, but as you can see on the raw footage he claims that he hasn't even thought about/analyzed the hand yet when they are discussing what should happen.
Just Nakita Vlogs, Yeah, I un-subbed from him immediately after seeing that vid. Fuck him. (I am certain he loses no sleep for that, but I feel better.)
Better would be to get dealt a monster, shove on Torelli, and then angle shoot him by pretending you couldn’t see his whole stack and act like you want to get out of it.
And to think, I originally dropped Torelli, and told him so, due to his own post. He replied with a mere 'thanks' garbage response. On the other hand I am sure his New Age kind, peaceful, fun life comments still pollute his vids.
The original came from Torelli himself, who lacks enough integrity that he totally missed the theft he was elaborating on. He now calls in 'ALLIN on the flop...." Here is the link...ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Eiv5q7HBXCU.html. Personally, I dropped my sub to him after that video, and commented about how disturbing the lack of character was.
Terilli played an angle, period. You can tell by his eyes when he pulls his two 5k chips out and immediately looks up at Wolf, then asks, "do you have me covered?" Terrilli knows that Wolf didn't know. He is trying to get an edge an advantage by hiding his chips.
Yeah that moment really struck me as well. The way he grabs the chips and looks at him was just so unnatural. It felt like "ok, now's the time to spring the trap and show him I have 10k more"
I know I’m late, and I agree with you guys. Did you notice how he stacked and separated his ‘stack’ of £5k chips. There was so many of them, he just needed to check, right under Wolf’s nose. What a jerk!
I saw this happen once. The guy in Torelli's shoes immediately said to his opponent they should turn over their hands and then the opponent should decide if he wanted to run it or take his money back. He also gave people who'd been pushed out of the pot their blinds and antes back from his stack. Afterwards when people tried to compliment him on being a stand up guy about it he mostly seemed insulted that they were insinuating that doing otherwise might've ever been an option. Different standards I suppose.
that's just honest as heck. it's just the right thing to do, just forfeit the game so that nobody looses anything, sure you "lost out on the possible big pot", but at the same time you also can keep playing. At the same time, I've never gambled for $25k, so maybe I'm just too poor to know what I would do in that situation :)
@@svampebob007 We were all young (so no real obligations beyond our own rent) had fairly high incomes and were sitting with roughly a half to a third month's salary each at the table.
@@willesnille Ah well that explains the fair and honest play :D still giving up half a month of salary is not an easy thing to do, your friend/opponent did the only right thing to do.
It may not have started off as an angleshoot, but it sure seemed to finish as one. When you try to get an edge post-mistake and work it to your advantage, that smacks of shooting loads of angles.
Trane Francks - I can actually hear an accent when I read your comment lol... you're some type of European aren't you? Could be Australian I guess, but not quite sure... Toodle loo "mate"...
In my opinion this is 100 % a angle shoot. If your a poker player or even a regular person you could read Alec. Notice how right when it was his turn to act after wolf shoved, he immediately exposed the big chips to show he wasn't trying to hide them. And look closely. The way he handled the chips, the way he talked. He clearly knew what he did but tried acting it out. And also knew wolf was week after how he reacted when saw the chips. A real man would not continue and would make a deal with wolf. What piece of shit.
Totally agree his reaction to grab the big chips right after the all in and engage with wolf asking if he knew his stack size is very very suspect . If it was a mistake then wouldn't he assume wolf knew his stack size and not ask the question to start with
Jon Way, you are 100% correct. If anyone here doesn't think Alec has a calculated reason for "everything" he does at the poker table? You're highly mistaken.
Jon Way I lost respect for Alec after that. He has enough money but apparently all his time playing poker he has no empathy for a novice mistake. Plus this is the first time I heard of angleing.
Blaine Potskin this wasn't a novice mistake. the player assumed he had his biggest chips out front because thems the rules. seriously, if a player gets dealt 3 cards on accident does he get to go oh you didn't know i had three, your bad. legally speaking something like this should be considered fruit of the poisoned tree. aka the ruling really should be alec is forced to muck. this is like when a cop illegally searches you and finds drugs and then they throw out the conviction. an all in is an all in only if the play was legal until then. this all in was made from a stack violation and just like an illegal search can't get you a drug conviction. an illegal stack shouldn't get you an all in.
He definitely hide his chips...no question...and after he flashed them looked for the reaction of the player.....there's no controversy he did it on purpose.
Yeah just the motions of how he actually flashes his chips right after the All In when he's counting makes this look 100% deliberate.. he thought of it in advance of how he was going to reveal the big chips when "counting his stack", which is why it looks so awkward and unnatural.
He also had that stack of red chips in front of the big chips, so that even the players with a better angle wouldn’t be able to see them _(“Better Angle”_ … hehe). Plus, we all know how-OCD players are-when it comes to their chips; You don’t have random stacks spread out all over the place.
He is nothing but a dog Poker cheat and if he’s hiding the big chips behind the small ones he should be held accountable for that!!!! I know this is years ago but ever since I saw that three or four years ago I have lost respect for that cheating player , Although I still don’t even know what his name is🤷🏻♂️
Exactly it is like they dont care as long as there is no trouble or fighting they seem to just let players get away with whatever they want and they let the players decide what to do.Its there fucking job to make these decisions for fuck sake.
Torelli... you should be ashamed... you did acknowledge your chips were at the back... but once you saw the guy's reaction, you knew you were stronger than him and you took advantage. the proper thing to do would have been not to include the silver chips in the hand. You have invited bad Karma onto yourself with the Poker Gods as witness... Shame on you.
I wonder if the other seated players were all hoping Alec had AK/AQ and his opponent was feeling "weak" because he has had bad luck with JJ/QQ/KK preflop and after the board ran out that pocket pair still would :)
Honesty and integrity are the most important qualities a poker player needs to maintain a trusted reputation. Torelli has clearly proven here he lacks both.
For people who wonder why a high stakes pro would risk his reputation for 10K, I think it's very possible that he is not as successful as he leads everyone to believe and maybe he does need that 10K and is just another degen high stakes player
I just hope everyone appreciates how Doug keeps switching his outfit based on the outfit Alec was wearing in the previous clip. It's the little things that make something great sometimes. And this was great.
Can we talk about a equally egregious problem in poker? Why does every floor seem like they're completely clueless idiots that barely even know how to play poker, let alone what the rules are? Honestly, can't say I've ever had/witnessed an experience with a floor that I'd rate above a C-.
I hear you 100%, but they're not all incompetent.... Go watch how the floor handled this angle shooter, he was disgusted.... ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-F-tI041TLI8.html
Hey Doug, do you still think Alec didn't intentionally hide those 5k chips, now that we have the following new information? -The max buy in was 20k. Alec snuck chips onto the table to go over the table max -The players were supposed to inform the staff if they reload, but Alec did not -Alec was losing in the game and tilted
Big question is why is doug dedicating his time to making a video about this without having this information, it's such a terribly obvious angleshoot that even the floor should be able to reprimand it
I Just read post 218 from Wolf on 2+2 about this hand. As I suspected Alec wanted to talk to him after the hand but he sure as hell didn't offer any cash back like any criminal ever would. He instead offered Wolf to invest into him another time on PNIA!!?? WTF. If this were me, Alec would have been eating through a straw for few weeks. Alec is a crook and the poker community knows about him.
The dealer or floor is supposed to intervene IMMEDIATELY when there is a discrepancy like this to clarify the situation moving forward (standard). Most likely the chip would not be in play if it's not out front. Torelli's chip shouldn't have been an issue to begin with.
Doug's analysis was spot on here. He even tried to bend over backwards to give Torelli every benefit of the doubt about hiding his chips. And then Polk goes on to explain what should be done in the interest of fairness. Torelli was such a weasel here and in his own video. Even if he did not intentionally hide his big chips, he so was so in the aftermath.
I know this video was a long time ago but I’m just watching it for the first time. The way you mimicked him with the touching of the sunglasses killed me lol
I know this was forever ago but the amount of info Wolfe conveyed regarding his hand strength was remarkable. He should’ve demanded the chips be in play. If I’m torelli and the player is demanding my chips are in play I’m almost certainly folding.
When Wolf sees that Torelli has 10K more his reaction gives away his hand strength and Torelli knows he is weak and weasels his way into playing for it all. If Wolf saw that there was 10k more in Torelli's stack and was like "That's fine let's do this!". Would Torelli still be talking about the bet stands. Or would he be more motivated to say "well you couldn't see those so let's play a pot without the big chips".
I disagree with you completely Doug. Alex knew exactly what he was doing. If someone would take this angle AFTER being called out then this type of person would surely set this up from the beginning. For Alex to even insinuate the slightest that is was not his fault and the other players just shows his true character. Its like saying its a woman's fault for being raped by what she is wearing. Guy is shady IMO.
Hey Doug, the raw live stream footage of this session is still available on twitch. www.twitch.tv/videos/58450160 I went through and did some analysis of it. I'll list the interesting pieces here with timestamps. Full disclosure, Dan Wolf is a friend of mine. 02:38:19 - This is the first hand of the post-dinner session, so Torelli has just sat down and gotten his chips set up. He has a single silver chip on the table, nonetheless it has already taken its position towards the back and to the side of his stack. There is a gap that would allow some of the people at the table to see it, although certainly the people to his left would still have some difficulty. Over the next 20 minutes or so any time they show Torelli's stack that gap between his orange and green stacks gets a little smaller and smaller (for example 02:51:59,) until: 03:01:58 - We see Torelli finally push his orange stack the whole way against his green, completely covering his silver chip. Notably Dan has not yet sat down at the table at this point. 03:05:39 - Dan makes his, ahem, entrance and there's that silver chip tucked away. Completely hidden from his view as seen at 03:06:21 from his angle. And that's exactly where it remains for the entire time Dan is at the table until the hand in question happens. Everything stays this way until: 04:24:00 - Torelli loses a big pot to Tilly, putting him down a little over 10k for the session. His silver is still covered by the oranges 04:25:14 - This is one of the most interesting pieces of the video. This is the exact time we can see Torelli reaching into his jacket pocket to pull out the second silver chip. Unfortunately the camera cuts away before we see him pull it out, but the next time we can see his chips he has two silvers. The second one goes right on top of the first one, notably still covered up by his other stacks even though he's clearly now interacted with them and could have moved them out front. Also worth noting, even though players are supposed to notify the PNIA production crew when they're adding on (so the chip graphs can be updated accurately,) Alec doesn't tell anyone. Neither the crew or the players at the table. For the rest of the time from now until the hand in question the count of his stack on the graphics is $5k off. 04:25:41 - The next view of Torelli's chips, an ariel view, showing the two silver chips. Although is it admittedly a little hard to say conclusively that there are two there. 04:29:35 - The next clear view of Torelli's chips, clearly showing the second silver on top of the first, both tucked completely behind his oranges and greens 04:30:57 - The next time we see a graphic of Torelli's chip count, showing that it is not updated to reflect his added $5k. 05:09:52 - This is the last hand Torelli wins before the hand in question. In the PNIA video we see him try to justify himself to the floor by saying that he had just won a hand and put those orange chips in the way of his silvers as a result of it. But this was a small pot that netted him 0 orange chips, and also left his orange stack exactly where it had already been. That is, in front of his silver chips. 05:15:00 - The hand in question finally starts. Notably Torelli's chip count graph is still inaccurate, and the announcers (once they catch up with the action) are also unaware about the true size of Torelli's stack and mention that they must have missed the rebuy. Overall quite a few interesting bits there. You can draw your own conclusions from these pieces of evidence, such as they are.
I love this tweet of his: "Jimi Hendrix still has the greatest Star Spangled Banner of all time. Admire him for being able to over come his left handed disability."
Also, this post sheds a lot of light on the question if Torelli did this on purpose. He talks a lot about Wolfs reaction when he found out that he was shoving for 10k more. Is it possible Torelli was waiting for a situation where he gets shoved on, shows he has 10k more to get a reaction out his opponent (if opponent did have a monster he would probably have reacted differently) to get an advantage? If so this certainly DID start as an angle shoot.
1000% Torelli meant to have his chips in the back because one of them was there for hours. and he added one to it from his jacket without telling the crew or anyone else. he saw them all day. and they were well hidden. purposefully
Doug your analysis of the situation and trolling is spot on as always. Whether he intentionally hid them or not is kind of a moot point because he still stole 10k from the guy. Someone's gotta pay for them vacations I guess.
Take ur 10k out and play out the visible chips. Wouldve been easy decision for me. I bet this alec character was stuck. Haha. & he might of not meant to Angle but he def took advantage of situation when he realized opponent was so worried bout the 10k more he was All in for. So greed took over Angleboy my bad i mean Alec mind & thought mmmmmm im stuck 20 and i could be even here. Haha. Sucka move where it shouldve been a Gentlemens move. Ur on Point Doug 👍🏼. 100% agree wit what we just saw here. Smh too bad people have to see this & just so everyone knws, this would of never flied in 99% of other poker rooms wit cams in em and most that didnt have cams in them.
Lenny Shamon pretty much my exact thoughts on this situation. I do not believe Torelli went into the hand thinking how can I get Wolf to shove on me & angle him. I’m even willing to believe him barricading the silver chip behind the rest of the stack was an honest mistake. What isn’t an honest mistake is the tone and verbiage he took after he realized Wolf made the mistake of shoving before asking for a count. This is similar to how I feel Armenian Mike handled his “joke” all in against Ryan Feldman. Didn’t go into hand scheming to angle, but after the situation unfolded, the angling began. Torelli’s language and word choice were so passive-aggressive clearly designed to make the shove stand because he knew he had a hand that was likely ahead given how Wolf reacted. From that moment, there was zero chance Torelli was going to do what I felt the right thing would’ve been - remove the hidden silver chips and play for the rest. Torelli himself said he was likely calling the lesser amount shove so take the silver chips out of play for that hand, rule Wolf’s shove stands for that amount and Torelli has the option of call or fold.
In a heads-up situation you could do that. But with many players on the table, it gets sticky, especially when other players made decisions in the same hand. But also because it changes the stack sizes after the hand is finished. I would hope that the other players at the table would be nice enough to be OK with them taking the 10k out of the hand.
This happened to me. The other guy was palming $500 when I went all in. Lost the hand. Called the floor. The floor looked at the tape and ruled that those chips were out of play for this hand.
No, Doug, you SHOULDN'T have to ask how much X player has behind. X player also doesn't have to SAY how much they have behind, because of the big denomination-chip having to be visible rule. People ask for chip-counts all the time, not being genuine, but to get reads from players or to stage false/reverse tells. Asking for chip-counts isn't and shouldn't be necessary. But you fucking nailed it @ 10:27
When you ask a player how much he has behind he doesnt have to say anything but you do it as to protect yourself from this kind of situation. When you ask him how much he s playing he s forced to make sure all his big chips are in front of his stack and visible.
Oh I am sorry you have just realized now that people can be deceitful or just make honest mistakes. Just ask how much he has behind if you suspect there could be hidden chips. Other players can also chime in if they suspect you cant see the bigger denomination chips from your angle IF YOU ASK.
Torelli really glossed over that analysis. Tried to give him a way out? Just play for 10k less if you want to do the right thing. Why even call the floor? Pretty annoying really from a guy I kinda enjoyed. Maybe need to rethink that opinion of Alec Torelli. And as long as we are talking shit, yeah the music and all the uplifting kumbaya theme is really annoying now that I think about it
12:00 thought the same damn thing. The all in bet should change to what the visible chip count was when he called it. But I can see people trying to abuse it.
Thanks Doug for making this video! You stood for the truth and fairness in a game that otherwise many crazy stuff happens. Very sad that Alec did not do the right thing at or after the event. He had multiple chances and disappointed us. Keep it up brother.
Your examination of this hand is spot on and what I find most accurate, relevant, and possibly difficult to point out is Torelli's reaction each and every step of the way. Regardless if it was intentional or unintentional, if it's a pro versus an intermediate player, or what the floor did clearly a person was "misled" and he should have tried to correct it by giving Wolf the advantage if not the decision. The fact that you can dissect Torelli's mannerisms and the small things he did to get the edge really shows why your a professional poker player! Excellent job on this one Doug and absolutely hilarious commentary!
Doug Polk Poker this guy's late lmao that lame comment has happened a while back, if anything she is a she so she stole a males haircut, doug is just following male suit
Well, Alec ANGLED after he was caught. He LIED after he was caught. That much is on the tape. He also CLEARLY broke the rule of the game. If the question was/is "was Alec angling before the bet was made?" then - the answer has to be YES, based on his post factum behavior. And, since there's nothing ELSE to substantiate a different conclusion - that answer is the most valid one we can have. I understand that poker is not played (very often) by French poets and Ethics professors... but Alec behaved here like a 2-bit rounder bum. Floor should've canceled and reversed the hand.
i think torelli's first response indicates he purposely hid chips. "do you have me covered??." he knew they were playing too deep for the jam to be a reasonable move. so it was like "mission accomplished - he overplayed a hand based on my presumed stack."
I agree, he didn't mean to hide big chips, but took advantage of it soon as he saw he was in a profitable spot. From jump Alec is the one pushing for the all-in to stand, then the house said i couldn't care less, just figure it out..... Alec is now the one who choose to be up against an all-in for the full amount . Then has the nerve to make a video saying he tried to help the guy out of it! LMAO in the words of Katt Williams " Did you know we could see you?!?!"
You can't prove a negative sparky , but we do know his big chips were hidden and we do know he wasn't telling truth , where his big chips were, therefore he was angle shooting .
If action circles back to Wolf after Torelli 3 bets, then Gusak releases BEFORE it is made apparent that there were hidden chips in Torelli's stack, why not just muck your hand, Torelli? Granted your chip stack has an impact on whether or not others enter the pot, but those other hands are trying to see a flop, not race. Gusak didn't seem too thrilled to play for 20k, and mucked straight away. Just muck your hand if you are Torelli, and let Wolf take the dead pot. The price of making a mistake. If Gusak's decision would have been affected by size of the action after him (I don't think it would be) then just refund him his call off of your own stack. Can't make a living in poker if your name is mud.
