Did C.S. Lewis Abandon Apologetics After the Anscombe Debate? 

My thoughts: 1. AN Wilson's biography is widely held by those who knew Lewis best and Lewis scholars in general to be one of the least accurate biographies of the major Lewis biographies. Indeed, Wilson himself later admitted as much after he came back to Christianity, that he put too much stock in the pscyhoanalysis of Lewis than he should've done (and Lewis himself warned against this sort of thing). 2. I think it's true, though, that Lewis himself felt defeated after the debate. There's plenty of evidence for this in Lewis' own letters to others and from testimonials of friends like George Sayer, Derek Brewer, and Hugo Dyson as well as those from others present at the debate like Antony Flew. However I also think Lewis' feelings of defeat do not necessarily imply he was defeated. Or at least that he was as defeated as he thought he was. Rather I suspect Lewis' defeat was overblown in Lewis' own mind. Perhaps this is owing to the fact that Lewis knew Anscombe was a fine young philosopher at the time (as was her husband Peter Geach) and that Lewis knew he hadn't kept up his philosophical education given his scholarly role had shifted to English literature. These facts in Lewis' mind may have exacerbated Lewis' own emotions coming out of the debate and in particular after the debate wasn't as clear cut a victory as previous debates had been for him. Hence I suppose his post-debate feelings of defeat probably were more despairing than his actual debate performance which may have been quite decent. And Anscombe herself said (reprinted in the second volume of her collected papers): "My own recollection is that it was an occasion of sober discussion of certain quite definite criticisms, which Lewis' rethinking and rewriting showed he thought were accurate." 3. In any case, it is a testament to Lewis' humility that he revised his argument from reason in Miracles and that he spoke well of Anscombe afterwards. On a related note, some people may be interested to see Anscombe's own analysis of Lewis' rewritten argument in her paper "C. S. Lewis's Rewrite of Chapter III of Miracles." 4. Lewis still kept writing apologetics even if we only consider the Narnia books. After all, Lewis himself said: "I thought I saw how stories of this kind could sneak past a certain inhibition which had paralysed much of my own religion in childhood. Why did one find it so hard to feel as one was told one ought to feel about God or the sufferings of Christ? I thought the chief reason was that one was told one ought to. An obligation to feel can freeze feelings. And reverence itself did harm. The whole subject was associated with lowered voices; almost as if it were something medical. But supposing that by casting all these things into an imaginary world, stripping them of their stained-glass and Sunday school associations, one could make them for the first time appear in their true potency? Could one not thus steal past those watchful dragons? I thought one could." Of course, this is precisely what Lewis attempted to do in his Narnia books. So, even if Narnia was all Lewis wrote after the debate, which of course it wasn't (e.g. God in the Dock), I don't see it as Lewis as abandoning apologetics, but rather consciously or subconsciously shifting his apologetics strategy. He moved from a more obvious and explicit defense of the faith to a more subtle and discreet defense. In short, I think Lewis fine tuned or recalibrated his apologetics rather than that Lewis abandoned apologetics entirely. Just as Lewis honed and improved his argument from reason after the debate, so too Lewis honed and improved his apologetics in general after the debate. For Lewis I think this marks an advance, not a retreat, in his apologetics.

C.S. Lewis is a genius because of how accessible he is to all types of audiences.

I just showed my parents your video on C.S. Lewis's Till We Have Faces - they really enjoyed it! I'm so glad you appreciate him so much, and keep drawing out the value of his life and work, and its relevance to people today.

C.S. Lewis, G.K. Chesterton and T.S. Eliot are perhaps the best Christian writers in English of all time. None of the were overly technical in their writing, but anyone who thinks they were "unscholarly" or lacked academic rigor is a fool.

I love Lewis too. The Great Divorce is probably one of my all time favorites, along with his space trilogy. I’m actually Roman Catholic but there’s a lot to admire about the great man!

Beautiful defense of Lewis. He’s my favorite theologian for the exact reasons you outlined. His ability to approach incredibly complex topics with an air of humility is truly astounding. It’s also one of the reasons why his works has been so beloved.

Your videos are greatly underappreciated. The quality and the content itself is just outstanding. You have my respect.

I feel like the thumbnails and the editing are on an upwards trend when it comes to quality. Glad to see the presentation get better and better!

Thanks for doing this! I actually wrote about this debate in seminary. I find the nuances fascinating, especially considering that Anscombe was a believer as well.

a fool admires complexity, a genius admires simplicity

This is well done. Loving the new graphic work throughout the episode too!

It’s quite sad that people still think this yet he wrote countless essays related to apologetics after this ‘debate’. Dr. Art Lindsley lays it out in his book CS Lewis’ case for Christ

Thank you for this video Gavin. I’m currently working my way through Harry Lee Poe’s 3 part biography of C.S. Lewis, and I’m now fascinated to see how this event is covered within it.

I read Victor Repperts book back in 2011, and it solidified the argument from reason as one of my favorite avenues to faith. He also does a great job poking holes in the Anscombe debate legends.

Yesterday was 60 years since Lewis passed away. May he rest in peace.

Love the new editing, really clean and well done, dial back some on the sound design and you’re perfect 👌

Cool, I never knew C.S Lewis and Elizabeth Anscombe personally interacted

I’d never heard of this. Appreciate the insight!

Thanks for another great video! As someone who is in ministry and also doing academic work, I would be really interested in a video on your academic process. How do you balance ministry and the academy? How do you prioritize sources, find new topics, think through potential answers to hard questions, etc. I think a video like that would be very helpful! Thankful for your continually helpful ministry!

Woa, video and editing quality went way up on this video. Keep it up Gavin 👍🙏

Many great historical figures are slandered like this...

Gavin, I can’t thank you enough for this video. The Lord has blessed me so much through Lewis, and I’m glad to hear your excellent refutation of this myth that has been irresponsibly perpetuated about him.

Excellent, clear argument and well supported. Thank you. I sometimes feel agitated by the condescending manner in which great minds like C.S. Lewis are being portrayed, especially by the so-called New Atheists. It is actually a sophisticated way of using the ad-hominem approach!

I love the thumbnail for this.

Hello dr.ortlund, thank you so much for these videos. You have been a great help in my spiritual journey. May the lord continue blessing you. Your video on ecclesial anxiety has aided me immensely. Thank you. Love from florida !

Well done Gavin. You have made a great contribution to how people can appreciate CSL’s literature and arguments.

Accessible and Humble: Yes! You do it well Sir. Love C.S. Lewis. I once had a brief conversation with the girl that worked with. It was extremely hostile towards the gospel and Christians and any mention of repentance. Then she told me how much she love the lion, the witch and the wardrobe, and I explain the gospel to her from that beautiful story. That Aslan is Jesus. She was blown away and understood, at least, in a cursory manner not only who Jesus was, but how Jesus was.

I came here to say that "Miracles" is one of the most mentally challenging books I've ever read. I suspect most people dunk on C. S. Lewis because they see other people doing it, and have not really interacted with his work. And even more certainly I surmise that none of those dunking on him would surpass his intellect, if they match it at all. C. S. Lewis is of the finest thinkers I've ever read, and his place among the most astute of thinkers is well earned.

This thumbnail made me chuckle haha. Seeing Gavin just barely poking out of the bottom was so funny for some reason

Thank you Gavin for setting the record straight. I am an admirer of both Lewis and Anscombe.

Ooh snazzy production & editing! Very slick, but I will say the sound effects are a little distracting. Still---great video. Thanks for all you do!

Absolutely excellent. Glad to hear a strong context-derived debunking of this myth (myth in the pejorative sense).

So glad that you made this video. Lewis loved fairy tales. His hero was also George Macdonald, a children’s fantasy writer. He loved these stories because he had a great love of mythology, and he viewed fairy tales as a medium for communicating myth, specifically the kind of true myths that we as Christians refer to as God’s general revelation. It was thru myth that Lewis became encountered joy and eventually Christ. In a sense, his stories serve as a form of powerful apologetics. It’s disappointing to hear such a strange psycho-analysis come from a ‘biographer’, but glad to see Gavin do right by Lewis. -Lewis’ biggest fan

Great video, Gavin! I’m currently editing a book featuring multiple philosophers who are defending - and strengthening - Lewis’s Argument From Reason. It will hopefully be published in 2024.

You're right. People often don't appreciate how very impressive Lewis' literary criticism, his professional academic work, was. And you're right that he learned to hide its sheer weight, to an extent. However that's less hidden in The Allegory of Love, his first major book, which is simply intellectually dazzling, as well as being beautifully written. So good that like most of his literary criticism, it can (and should) be read for pleasure, while one benefits from being educated at the same time.

Just noticed a small detail sir Gavin, there's improvement with the editing of effects in your presentation! Keep it up sir!

Lewis is one of my all-time favorite authors. I believe him to be one of (if not, THE) the greatest thinker(s) of the 20th century. And I would agree that the disdain for Lewis among academia has to do with either jealousy for his popularity, or a disdain for his clarity and simplicity, which I think takes way more bravery and skill as a writer than being overly-ambiguous and esoteric in our language. Great video!

I love the new graphics!

Wow the presentation has seriously improved! It was great before but the small touches and sound effects breathe a little more life in the videos.

This was fun! Thank you kind sir!

@TruthUnites Dear Dr. Ortlund, just to say thank again for all you do, and if I might make a request - I would be very interested in hearing you cover something on the Protestant 'tradition' of music/congregational singing/hymn writing. God bless.

Excellent, Gavin

Really nice! Had me wondering what those authors were seeing, if Lewis literally published apologetics works after that debate. And even in Surprised By Joy (Lewis's own autobiography), he talked about the whimsy he experienced in childhood play, when he and his brother would construct entire fantasy worlds to play in; it seems obvious this had long been a part of him, not just something he fell into pursuing because he felt incapable of writing what he "really wanted to." Sending this to my friend Mike at Apologetics, Inc.! (formerly known as the C.S. Lewis Society).

Great topic! I asked Max McLean about Lewis' debate with Anscombe after his performance of "The Most Reluctant Convert" and whether he thought that affected Lewis' career. He didn't really have an answer as he didn't know much about that particular moment in Lewis' life.

First comment! Your videos are wonderful!

Thank you for this!

"Writing plainly" is EXACTLY the mark of a great thinker/writer, according to Lewis's own introduction to "On the Incarnation,' by St. Athansias. Why read a book About Plato when you can read Plato? And don't be afraid that the great thinkers will be too far over your head; one thing that makes them so great is that they are actually understandable, whereas the latest scholarly book about Platonism will be very difficult for most readers. Great thinkers can explain their thoughts on all levels. So even if Lewis's later works were 'written plainly,' that means nothing. Thank you for the wonderful video; I had never heard of this debate nor the controversy about it.

Never heard of this idea before nor had I gotten even the slightest whiff of it from my own extensive reading of Lewis's essays.

I like Lewis and Anscombe

Thank you. Newly discovered 👍

Love the thumbnail 😂

"...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect..." (1 Peter 3:15) So, there is a place for apologetics. But we should always remember that it is never about winning, always about the Spirit using the opportunity to plant a seed in someone's heart. And rarely will it change minds that are already made up.

Love this video. This taught me something new I had never knew about Lewis!

Thank you for this video! I have loved reading CS Lewis. And videos like yours that break down these topics are fascinating. I don't know that I would have appreciated Till We Have Faces had I not watched your video on that book. It was a great outline as I reread it! 14:26 And though I had listened to That Hideous Strength many many many times on audio book, it seemed I got more and more as I listened to it. I didn't have the words to describe what I thought he was outlining in the contrast difference between Modernity and Middle Ages. Really enjoyed this and the videos related to his other works! 😊

When I read "The Silver Chair" I also see that lewis didn't abandon apologetics. The great climax is a debate where the Green witch is trying to convince Jill, Eustace, and Puddleglum that their surface world isn't real.

Great video! I've found Lewis one of the most compelling authors in any genre he's written. He just has "it". Also, not to imply Lewis' argument failed, but can we agree that even a "failed" argument is still very valuable for the conversation it spurs from which better, clearer, more precise definitions and arguments arise? It feels to me that any earnest philosophical proposition is inherently valuable even if it can be utterly refuted.

Jacobs' book is fantastic. Absolutely loved reading it.

Thank you. I had uncritically bought into the myth that Anscombe had somehow "destroyed " Lewis' argument.

Liked and subscribed ❤

Good take!

"The Great Divorce" is my favorite genre.

Ha, the small humor in these videos is great.

Three things: 1. Thank you. This video is excellent. I agree, this issue gets blown way out of proportion, and I agree with Anscombe that the best explanation is "projection." 2. I would love it if you made a video going through the points of contention between Anscombe and Lewis and if Lewis' revised argument meets the challenges - I know you already touched on that briefly in this video. 3. An addition to this video, if I may be so bold: even if Lewis only wrote children's literature after this debate, that does nothing to show that he did not engage in apologetics. For that would be to assume that children's literature cannot be apologetic. It seems to me, only a fool would dismiss children's literature as a possible source for deep insight - apologetic or otherwise.

How you write depends on who you're writing for. I'm a professional writer of fiction and non-fiction, but not an academic. Lewis was both. In general, distilling a difficult concept into simple, clear language should always be the goal, and Lewis did that better than anyone. If you can't explain the concept simply, you don't understand it well enough. Writing for academia is more rigid and demands more complexity but that's what made him a genius. He did both. He wrote for everyone. He just didn't have the typical intellectual snobbery to go along with it. He was humble to admit his mistakes and clarify his positions. In general, I find the literary academy (at least the local folk I know) to be quite ivory-tower level snobby. (They don't sell the books that Lewis did, either.) Thank you for defending my literary hero, Gavin. I enjoyed this.

Thanks

It is important to know that Anscombe was no lightweight. She did her PhD with Wittgenstein and went on to translate and edit Wittgenstein's posthumous work, Philosophical Investigations.

Anyone opposing Lewis' ideas would of course try to create narrative showing him in a bad light. And those others who want to deny Lewis' ideas, because they strike a spiritual nerve, will glom onto and continue the bad light narrative; even though it is not true. Very familiar scenario in human existence. Good job with this, good sir.

Excellent! I believe you are spot on about Lewis....

Lewis abandoned his atheist position at age 32 and joined the Church of England much to the dismay of his close friends J.R.R. Tolkein who wanted him to convert to Catholicism. People change their beliefs all the time. I expect it.

I think CS Lewis had a huge influence on you. Which is why you gave a well proportionate defense for him. Good video.

I really think Platinga’s evolutionary argument against naturalism is far superior to Lewis’s argument from reason. Although, Lewis’s argument from reason still demands genuine consideration, as Plantinga’s argument wouldn’t exist without it.

Is this related to Rationality Rules’ recent attack on his Argument from Reason?

I think like most people, Lewis was completely disappointed in reason to be able to convince anyone of anything if they are committed to their own point of view. Debate had simply become a game which skeptics only ever wanted a stalemate by denying all things. In the end if only one person is interested in playing and the other is just set on spoiling because theu know they can't even begin to play, it is not worth it.

Lewis couldn't handle the emerging atheistic notions in philosophical circles about explanatory adequacy, prior assumptions, vagueness about key terms, and general metatheoretic issues. Look at the devasting effect of Flew and Wisdom when they finally published on those themes (except for straightforward metatheoretic analysis). 3 key articles did almost all the damage, and all three arguments +still+ have not been addressed by any Christian apologist. And here we are.

So what was the argument and rebuttal of the actual debate?

The Medieval Mind of CS Lewis is a lovely read to add to your list 😊

Thank you for clearing that up. I had been slightly affected by that fog of disinformation myself.

I think it's actually to Lewis' credit if he felt defeated. In my experience, many religious apologists are bumptiously confident about the strength of their arguments.

Of course, we should also point out that Anscombe was a devout Roman Catholic. It's not like she was some atheist or something.

I agree about the difficulty of writing clearly and understandably. Those who write academically are often very bright but use jargon terms that hide as much as they reveal--sometimes they don't really understand the terms themselves (I know because, I graduated from graduate school, and I was one of them). The brilliant writer appreciates the essence of the argument so well that jargon is irrelevant. Once that level of mastery is reached the author can write for almost any audience. As did Lewis and in other contexts Mortimer Adler.

10:54 C S Lewis wrote a forward to a friends translation of Athanasius' Incarnation of the Word which later appeared as "On The Reading Of Old Books" in "God In The Dock" where he said that many beginners are afraid that they won't understand the ancient philosophers and responded "if he only knew, the great man, just because of his greatness, is much more intelligible than his modern commentator".

Really interesting. I thought the comments about his academic colleagues writing him off for writing a popular level. One of my lecturers at theological college had been one of William Barclay's PHD students and said that Barclay was constantly told that by writing for the church rather than the academy he was wasting his talent and throwing away his career

Thank you for this beautifully cogent discussion. Some of the reports about the debate would have us believing that Lewis fled in dismay immediately afterwards, but nothing in his or Anscombe's notes gives this credibility, and the idea that Anscombe became the source of the White Witch is gob-smackingly silly. As an elderly atheist, perhaps I can add that no writer has shaped my study or my attitude to life as much as this truly remarkable man.

You're doing the job well. Carry on.

The Intelligentsia can be the fourth road to the cross. God! I miss Fulton Sheen. Have a blessed day.

I mean, at the end of that day, does it matter that he felt confident in his assertions and previous books? Regardless of whether HE was confident doesn’t undermine the soundness of his arguments we’ve found to be so for so long. A good argument is a good argument.

I havent read AN Wilson's book but I did enjoy the tv documentary he did on Lewis. It was on UK tv so not sure if available in the US. He did say Lewis had a rather odd relationship with his late comrade's mum who he had promised to look after. But overall enjoyable.

At 60, I’ve come to the point of being excited about being shown errors in my thinking. If I think of my own theology as a “product “ to be sold, rather than the actual journey it is, then I’m fragile. I think Lewis in the end was the opposite- a resilient believer and scholar.

I wholly endorse Planet Narnia. I do like its point that perhaps the Narnia books _were_ a result of that debate, as he set about putting his notion of enjoyment vs. contemplation into practice.

Even if Lewis had abandoned his arguments and apologetics that doesn't mean anything, if the logic of his positions holds true. It's an argument from authority. It's like, on the other side, the oft-repeated story that Darwin recanted his theories on his deathbed (or later in life or whenever). If you find an argument to be logical and valid, a mere recantation by the person who made the argument doesn't refute its logic or validity. It may be a good occasion to go and give the argument a second look, but if the logic still holds, then its the recantation that's in error (if the recantation ever happened at all).

My impression from how Lewis friends described his reaction to the Anscombe debate later the same afternoon when they met in a pub is that he was very surprised at how formidable she was. Anscombe was a very unusual person and a very formidable opponent. If it was probably enough that a younger woman should have put him on the defensive that would have made him wonder if he was losing his edge but it

Dr. Ortlund, did you ever have the pleasure of meeting James Houston (from Regent College, Vancouver) while at Fuller? He would occasionally teach classes at Fuller. Anyway, Houston didn't talk about it until late in his career, but he was a friend of Lewis' while at Oxford.

Good piece here. Quite frankly I find no evidence that debates ever actually resolve anything for most people. The whole structure of them is prone to be subjectively interpreted as to who actually "wins." Usually the audience who already have their favorites will think everything the favorite says is great anyway on both sides. I've also found that some of the greatest writers and thinkers don't necessarily do their best presentations in a format that presents with time limits and expected and unexpected attacks on your thinking. It's very fluid and dynamic what will arise and not everyone is able to quickly compose a good answer on the spot without more time to think more clearly. It doesn't mean they don't have the better answer in their brain. It's very different from writing books where you have unlimited time to refine your argument and rephrase your wording and get lots of feedback before publishing. Debate is just a format that takes extreme skills and some that are good debaters aren't always great thinkers either. If you can do both you are in rarified air. Jesus succeeded to the point his detractors quit asking questions.

I put "The Great Divorce" into the same category as the Chronicles of Narnia - religious fiction.

Amazing how the simple rebuff was missed. Scales do not measure and assign weight to smth. The person using the scales does.

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

13:16 Well said.

Anscombe later wrote that Lewis' critics regarding his "turn" were projecting their own insecurities on to him. Given what we know of the brain today Haldane was wrong. Plus Truth is something we pursue in God's Creation not something that exists on our thoughts.

Will you debate or respond to Sam Shamoun?

11:00. The only theologian/apologist who is remotely as accessible as Lewis was R.C. Sproul. And I expect him to be dismissed as a "popular theologian" within 5yrs as well.