The gang had a savings of around $45,000. That's the equivalent of having $1.2 million today. Idk if Rockstar did this on purpose to show that no matter what Dutch would truly never be satisfied with the amount they had, or if they just didn't account for inflation fully. The money system is kinda weird in this game, but I'm thinking that it's a mix of both.
Hosea's death also contributed to Dutch's madness, as Hosea was kinda of the smart and peaceful part of the gang leadership. Maybe Milton knew that Hosea was the brain of the gang and knew that killing hosea would destabilize them
Hosea was an old guy, and to reach that age doing what he does he must be a very smart player. Milton was a strategist, that's why he was aways in the gang's trail. That's my opinion tho
Travis letchford most definitely even from the earlier chapters you could tell who had some sense and who didn’t Bill & Javier were both yes men but Javier should’ve known better
Without a doubt. I think that, without those lovable renegades balancing out the clueless followers, Dutch lost his perspective. Arthur and John were outnumbered in the end.
When Bronte said "One thousand dollars to the man who kills him." He picked the wrong people to say that to. They all looked at him like he was some sort of idiot.
Hosea was basically Dutch's therapist Dutch went almost crazy after Hosea died and since he wasn't there to fix his mind, he kept getting worse with Micah manipulating him on top of that
Dutch had a very immature and idealistic goal of being a Robin Hood without the "give to the poor" part. Micah just fed his instincts, just like Satan in his snake form with Adam and Eve, he wasn't really trying to turn Adam and Eve evil, he was toying with their curiosity. Micah just had a shit ton of money in it if he succeeded though, with the Pinkerton deal, the Blackwater money, and all the other heists.
Yes Hosea’s death was Dutch’s breaking point Micah had Dutch confused that’s why he killed Micah when John confronted them he never knew Micah was responsible for Arthur’s death John kind of help Dutch snap back into reality for a second just like how John couldn’t say anything once Dutch passed him Dutch had that seem feeling but his was guilt instead of shock thus he went completely insane not knowing who to trust and having so many people trying to kill him
I’m in chapter 2, the camp has almost 30k(thank you lennys simple trainer)I think and all upgrades, plus Micah is in jail and we have Kieran, Sean, Hosea and Lenny are still alive, Arthur hasn’t contracted tuberculosis and the pinkertons haven’t found our camp yet. I basically have the good ending already.
The brain damage theory is interesting, but I think the character of Dutch has always been somewhat questionable. When Colm O'Driscoll captures and tortures Arthur, Dutch doesn't do shit. He returns to the camp and does not mobilize to try to find Arthur. This event was the starting point for me to begin to question Dutch's character and intentions.
Even before that , he needlessly murdered a woman during the black water Massacre , Dutch was always bad he just had a good support system. When it was gone he was left to stew on his own madness
Only a few hours has passed I don't think he knows that he's kidnapped and if he did know he was problably still figuring our what to do, but I don't think he knew.
I'll never forget the scene with Dutch feeding Bronte to the gator and the looks on Arthur, Bill, and John's face and thinking "So this is where he starts losing his mind."
From the beginning (as someone who hasn’t played rdr1) I really liked Dutch. He was a good character and a good guy. Then at this mission at the end I was fucking shocked. Like, “what the fuck did Dutch just do?!” Then it was just a downhill spiral.
“You keep killing folk, Dutch” damn there is a ton of lines from this game that just hit hard. “Gonna strange me next?” “We’re more ghosts than people” “you gotta find out what kinda man you want to be with the time you have left” tons of emotional one liners
He acts distrustful of Arthur from basically the very beginning. I’m replaying the story and in chapter 2 Dutch said something like “you seen the type to betray me, in the end” to which Arthur showed some serious confusion
The Blackwater massacre definitely shook Dutch up badly. The fact that Arthur and Hosea, his oldest friends, weren't there when the clusterfuck went down makes it pretty easy to empathize with Dutch's paranoia. That said, I still think Dutch has syphilis induced psychosis.
Personally, I always thought the gang was suffering from arsenic poisoning in chapter 6. They are right next to butcher creek, and the mine leaking the poison into river source which they are using. I know that that it is likely not the case, but I always thought it was a funny coincidence that the whole gang started acting really erratic at the same time they moved into Beaver Hallow. Elysian pool is downstream from beaver hollow. Sorry, I jumped the gun. Thank you all for clearing up any misconceptions.
they started to act this way in Beaver Hollow because morale was low, they were at their wit's end, members were either leaving or dying and the law was closing in on them. while it would be kinda cool if they turned out to be poisoned then, the game gives plenty of reasons to understand their position by this point in the story
The fact they’re all so erratic is probably due to the anger they feel from having been so badly damaged as a group by the Pinkertons which also forced them up to Beaver Hollow.
deadrat7019 the poison was being leaked from the waterfall in Elysian Pool. They would have been collecting water way more up stream. Good theory though
While I don't think a concussion made Dutch go mad (it's too simplistic), I believe that when Bronte set him up and made a fool out of him, it made him finally realize how much of a "failure" he was up until that moment, and that he would never be respected as an outlaw in America being a "good guy". However, Bronte's betrayal was just the trigger for something that has been building up since before the Blackwater incident.
Kalika Girdhar Taneja well maybe, maybe not. It was likely a trap and believe it or not the chaos they caused actually kept law off of them for however brief a time. Scouting may have gotten them directly caught.
@@johnycakes6613 well if they would have sent Abigail or any other gang member to scout, I think they wouldn't have been caught. Also after the massacre they should have just moved on.
Yeah I think the combination of the head injury, losing all those people, getting lost on Guarma, and Micah whispering in his ear the whole time really messed him up to the point of no return. I like Dutch and I hated seeing him go down that path
Even before Guarma. I honestly lost faith when Dutch killed Bronte in cold blood. Then he did the same to the blind woman in Guarma. For example back in chapter 3 he didn't kill the Braithwaite woman (he pribably would've after chapter 4).
Key factors: 1. There was a rat in his gang that led to him losing $150000 in a robbery. 2. The pinkertons are following him so he doesn't know if he will die in his sleep. 3. Everyone is blaming him and irritating him while he needs time to think alone. 4. People need to understand that he is human and makes mistakes. 5. Many people who have had know fro years died within a few weeks (Jenny, Davey, Mac and Sean (Dutch thought he was dead), Micah was to be hung) 6. He was getting to the age of a mid life crisis. We know that he would have been at least 40 7. Molly was getting very irritated and annoying Dutch as he was talking to other women (as well as men but the women are the main part) around camp to keep the morale up. 8. His head injury 9. His best friend for more that 20 years got killed, potentially because he drew attention to himself by kidnapping a major person in the largest city of the 5 starts in the game. 10. He loses an estimated $60000 (1.8 million today), making all his master plans fail so 20 peoples fates could be sealed. 11. He starts to be crazy and suspects that Arthur -whom he had know for 20 years- was betraying him. He would feel like he could trust no one. 12. The woman he loves is killed. 13. His whole gang falls apart, something he had built up for years. 14. He is told the only person that he still trusts was a rat and he feels betrayed.
"People need to understand that he is human and makes mistakes" I'm not sure what you mean by this. As far as I could see, many folks around Dutch understood that he's made mistakes. They told him all the time about his wrong decision making. Dutch was the one who would not understand he is just a human and he's made mistakes
After the trolley mission when Lenny takes Dutch back to the camp, he says “I don’t feel so good” as he looks ahead as if he’s not seeing anything. It kinda gave me chills to see that
The citizens of St. Denis are filthy bastards that call the trigger happy 1-800-instant-firing-squad cops on you just for antagonizing one of them and walk in front of your horse all the time, they all deserve to be shot, hung, burned and butchered without mercy
there was a lot of contributing factors to dutch’s descent into madness, the trolley crash, hosea’s death, and the gangs doubts severely damaging his ego being some of them. but like arthur said, he got found out for who he really was. a murdering charlatan with a false sense of moral superiority stringing along a group of outlaws to a promised land they had low chances of ever seeing just so they could avoid the consequences of all the things they had done. those parts of dutch’s character were always there, and i believe he was an unstable narcissist out for himself and those who follow him without question long before 1899. as the story goes on it just gets harder for him to repress his true nature.
@@fakeninja4447 you can hide who you are for that long to those closes to you it's been done before. He also may have save Sadie but he killed a woman in blackwater. He also left auther to di so he did leave what's basically his son to die
Now that I’ve played through, when I start over, I can’t stand Dutch right from the beginning. I’m at Clemens Point right now and he walked by me in camp at night, and he literally says to Arthur that he “would be one to betray him.” I was like wooooooow already? You’re already being suspicious of me?
Dutch already complained about Arthur and Hosea being against him since the beginning, after the Blackwater job. Arthur and Hosea weren't on the ferry, so they kept wanting to know what happened, which irritated Dutch, making him act that way, thinking they want to betray him.
Yuuup that's the reason he took in kids like Arthur and john because it breeds loyalty and blindness it's what a large amount of cults do even today scientologist take kids away to start training them young it's indoctrination
Remember, the first thing you upgrade in the base about Dutch is, "getting him something comfy". He is selfish man. Somehow, as the gang grew larger, he felt like a messiah promising the gang a land. He hated being doubted and questioned. He didn't listen to Arthur and Hosea in Blackwater, sided with Micah, a man who is a jester to a king. Always siding with his "bad decisions" never doubting him. This forced him to get drifted away from the gang and into the arms of Micah. Besides, all the times we are away from the camp as Arthur, Dutch spends his time with Micah. All, that, time. Think of all the ways Micah weaseled into Dutch's head. I mean of 3 times we ride with Micah, he has the courtesy to talk about John's wife Abigail. It is then he actually learns about how John went away for a year. The moment you give him the details, he concludes the conversation. From that point on, Dutch starts to get suspected of John. Hell, even I did (although I played RDR1). That 1 year gap of John and instantly coming back for no reason even to Arthur, the first job he does after coming back being the boat job in Blackwater... John was a perfect fall guy. Arthur being righteous and actually liking John got him to catch fire of suspicion too... Dutch, a man that acted wise but was never that wise unconsciously needed an explanation to all the plans he'd been making go south. He didn't suspect Micah, he was his jester.
Jesters actually existed to be the only person that could question and mock the king without fear of reprisal, because that were just a fool. Not someone to be taken seriously. Uncle is the Jester, Micah is a sycophant.
Interestingly enough, I think it was John’s leaving for a year that got Arthur more on his side in the end. Arthur resented him for it at first, but as Dutch started slipping further and further away, I think Arthur grew to respect and understand his doing that.
I feel they did drugs in secret together too. Why he was so glued to Micah wouldn’t give up his connect. People in real life act just like Dutch too many people. Only way it makes sense to me and keeping the addict preacher around that wasn’t robbing or working around camp. Uncle actually did help from time to time in his own way, the preacher was really the only useless gang member. At the end of RD1 Dutch looks fried like the preacher. It caught up to him
What i dont get is the amount of trust Dutch has for Micah when he's only known him for at best 6 to 8 months before Arthur dies. He's known Arthur his whole life.
It's mostly because Micah fed Dutch's ego by telling him everything he wanted to hear, as well as supporting even the worst ideas. In the meantime, Arthur is trying to help Dutch see that his plans weren't proper, leading to Dutch's mental state allowing him to be manipulated and used.
He wanted arthur and everyone else to blindly follow him, When Arthur knew he was dying he could for the first time see dutch clearly, and not blindly follow him which led Dutch to suspect arthur and john not to mention also because Arthur told him he met with agent Milton earlier in the game.
even as Dutch was drowning Bronte the gang members looked concerned, It's like they didn't expect him to do that. If Micah was there maybe but he wasn't. It looks like they knew something was off
WiLz Albano he may have had a psychiatric break then but after that he goes back to normal, I say normal in the sense of Dutch being somewhat reasonable at least for a bit till the pressure and brain injury fully unhinge him and him being more or less brainwashed from Micah boosting his ego.
Jr_ e9a they tried to rob a ferry and it backfired and turned into one of the biggest shootings in history and many people died except Landon rickets and Micah was the one that told everyone about the ferry
I personally think he does. Absolutely. After he gets his head injury, he started to descend (Mentality wise). Irrational thinking increased. His distrust increased. Bell in his ear all the time, and the loss of Hosea didn't help things either. But yes, the head injury definitely contributed.
there is also an interaction you can find with dutch just sitting alone in the bayou i believe where he is just repeating an imaginary chess game in the exact same sequence over and over until you interact with him. dont know if it is so much is related to brain damage as it is him finally losing it and micah ramping up dutch's ego by making him think himself of some sort of mastermind.
Things would’ve been different had Arthur just let micah die in that jail. Hell if I was Arthur I would’ve just shot micah somewhere in the woods and told Dutch that I was too late to save him.
what made me realize dutch was a real traitor is when you go with eagle flies to blow up that factory the army captian is about to kill you and arthur says dutch I need help and he walks off and denies the whole thing when arthur said something about it and tried to wisdom word his way out the situation
Just a note here: As someone who has had a concussion I can say that the symptoms of irritability and personality shifts are very temporary. Most of the go away after the first couple days. I think the brain injury is supposed to be a red herring, while the absence of Hosea and the manipulation of Micah are the true culprits.
Shroom is right, everyone's concussion symptoms and how those symptoms resolve (if they ever do) varies between patient to patient. I knew a woman who had 5 concussions in her life. Her symptoms were not only different each time, but also lasted longer after each concussion. Hers evolved from headaches and dizziness after the first one to 6 months of medical leave for dizziness, nausea, extreme light sensitivity, poor judgement...you get the idea. I think that was the lightest of her concussions. It shows you just how fast the repeated brain injuries can pile onto one another even after years of supposedly being healed. If you want some more examples, check out the NFL. Their players show up in the news for things the NFL likes to brush off as traumatic brain injuries, like beating up your girlfriend on camera or running a dog fighting ring. I sort of went off topic there. lol It's just something to keep in mind in case you encounter concussed people in your friends and family. A concussion is a wide-reaching illness.
I’ve had two concussions and what you’ve said is right, however he is clearly suffering from something else plus concussions have different severity’s so I’ve had two minor concussions (still not good) whereas Dutch could be suffering a severe one
I've had severe traumatic brain injuries, and it did change my personality. I got much meaner internally and my frustration threshold drastically lowered. I am also well-armed and absolutely shouldn't be. However, it's done nothing to change my behavior, and I'm actually much more friendly and kinder now because I don't overthink about much anymore. If it's a human or an animal, I am kind to it, no exceptions. It actually helped me take the final step from vegetarianism to veganism that I couldn't before the brain damage became severe, because I'd always justify slipping. Sometimes now I just need to leave the room if one of my dogs in rehabilitation training won't stop attacking me before I snap and hurt it back, or if someone won't stop screaming at me. You can control it, you just need to be aware of it, which is very hard in pressing situations. I could see Dutch having brain damage, but I also think he's a horrible and loathsome creature.
One of my favorite lines From Arthur is When he said "Once Dutch got mad at me when I robbed a poor guys house, he said that that makes us worse" I cant remember it fully
When Landon Ricketts first meets John in RDR after he kills a bunch of thugs, he says something really similar: "You kill peasants, you become a peasant".
The game was several years in development and the voice actors for each gang member were also several years into Mocap and reading dialogue, etc. I suspect that Roger Clark (Arthur's voice actor) got a whole script about the history and background of each gang member. If he said that, he just wants you to believe it and keep the myth alive.
@@EagleEye-rw5pn he worked several years for Rockstar so he was involved in the developing of the game, so he knows whats motivation is behind Dutchs decisions.
*Old Lady Guide pulls knife on Dutch and Arthur, requesting gold* “Dutch, Why did you kill that old lady!?” “Well Arthur, I had a feeling she was going to betray us.”
@Jackson Hulse I don't think it was beyond the realm of possibility that Dutch could have handled a feeble old woman with or without a knife without outright killing her.
@Jackson Hulse Yeah that's exaclty what I tought too. Like I get it they are trying to show that he's losing it but consider that his heist plan just failed, 2 of his friends died in the proccess, 1 in jail, 1 captured and on top of all that they are stranded on a random island with no clear way out. Any wrong decision could kill them easily it's understandable to not wanting to take any risks. But then he didn't take back the gold bar from the lady and yeah apparently he did have a brain damage.
I'll never not want to cry when I hear Dutch say "I.. ain't got too much to say no more." I feel like you can hear Dutch's remorse and sorrow in his voice.
That's interesting, I always interpreted it as him feeling betrayed by Arthur - which shows his complete warping of everything and narcissistic tendencies
i wanted to cry but then i remembered he kinda went psychotic and went from Arthur whom he'd known for his whole life basically to Micah who he knew for like 8 months by the end of the game
I'll never not want to cry when I hear Dutch say "I'm gonna Dutch all over the place" I feel like you can hear Dutch's remorse and sorrow in his voice.
He also has very few lines in RDR1... he still doesn't have much to say to John, other than basically admitting he's wandering aimlessly looking for a badass way to die.
