JayQuan examines the influence of Pigmeat Markham, Gil Scott Heron, The Last Poets and others on Rap & Hip Hop culture Cashapp:$jayquanone / jayquan foundationhiph... jay-quan.com
I always tried to convey the younger generation that someone like Cab Callaway was a big influence on hip hop. He had swag, style, rap, ladies, and openly smoked weed, which back in those days was referred to as reefer.
I’m soon to be 56 years old, so I’ve been into all the elements of Hip Hop. I want to state for the record, that your channel is the most historically significant resource out there! Bravo!
I think it is clear that there is more than one person, one crew, one genre or any singular factor that birthed Hip-Hop. This is good of course, because no one can claim ownership of it. History must still be acknowledged of course, salute.
I think your interview with Pete "DJ" Jones summed it up with him stating that it was a progression. I'm paraphrasing. If Jocko was Philly and NY's number 1 DJ at one point rhyming over records doing a show, I don't think it could be overlooked. It may not be Hip-Hop music as we know it, but it's definitely a contribution.
Thanks for the Education JayQuan! Wow! That "5 on the Blackhand Side" movie clip was filled with samples an inspiration from rap records from the Sugar Hill Gang to Ghostface Killah! For me, when I think of early 70's urban rhyme in pop culture along with the ones you mentioned, I think of "Lootin Lenny" from the TV show "Good Times."
The homie JayQuan always spot on. Check this', Hip Hop got its own 'style' of 'rappin',,rappin been around before hip hop, Hip Hop does its own version of it, taking from many sources , not just ones mentioned here, Gospel & Disco are heavy influencers to the evolution of 'modern rappin' with gospel being a major influencer to all 'rappin' period.
Also add the tradition of "toasting" over reggae beats to the influences of rap. I would say to anyone that says that what Cab Calloway was doing was 'rapping' is that what Cab was doing already had a name, and that is 'scatting' which has its own rich history that does lead to rap but is distinct from it. Love this video, JayQuan; thank you very much!
@@ike6209 No. Black Americans were toasting way before they ever even heard any Jamaican music. Look up a book called the life poetry of the black Hustler.
@@Number1DriversSeat yes you are right about that they were jive talking my pop use to call it but rhyming when jive talking jamaican always copied what they did america from singing over Rhythm and blues songs over on different riddim and dressing like them and they still sing over american songs today nothing wrong with that
Cindy Campbell confirmed that U-Roy was a direct influence. I think the bigger picture is that diaspora has been in communication for a long time in ways that weren’t obvious to everyone
@the That is FALSE no Black American never heard of no toasting or whatever yall call that which is not rapping Jamaicans have always copied Black Americans we never copied yall stop spreading that lie it has already debunked as junk none of it came from that! Hip hop has nothing to do with anything Jamaican or Latin! It is a Black Americans culture! You can lie to yourself but the truth will always remain! Not even Herc who copied and followed us ever made that claim he told the truth a lot back in the days he maybe trying to sing a different song now but his older recordings are out for all to listen to! But I get it people like you don’t want the truth you rather live with lie it makes you feel good!
Pigment mark ham also had “who got the number” and it sounds like an old version of a rap duo rhyming. “Hustlers convention” also influenced the early modern rappers All of this comes from toasting, it was rhyming to tell a story. It was done throughout the south, and even influenced Jamaicans Sound systems when they would pick up the radio signals, but they were emulating the radio personality who was toasting, but in a short form. That was called jive talking, as was said in the video Hip hop music is just a mix of radio personality type rhyming with disco type of djing. That is all it is but for some reason people try to make it complicated and mysterious, especially with the Jamaican nonsense. All the originators told us what influenced them, and none said Jamaica. Even kool herc said he couldn’t play reggae music at parties, so that myth needs to die so the truth can be told
Family if God is my witness thankyou so much because I'm going to put this hiphop word to sleep with In a few weeks. I Have a documentary I'm working on now as we speak. The bosses I know personally from the jamaican sound systems are going to put everyone from my era false claims to rest. Why because they feel bad that our own people trying to take credit for what our forefathers left us. I'm not spitting in none of they face even pigment or the jubalaires. Do you see other nationalities discrediting their ancestors or forefathers? It dont matter if they was rapping alongside a DJ or not. Alot of rappers now dont use DJs when they recording songs in the studio! Then everyone from the bronx telling me to worship Kool Herc and say f... my forefathers over him. Is that era crazy? There is no such thing is a era. What era? You never forget where you come from. Honor thy mothers and fathers! As a DJ I'm not dissing the jubalaires and worshipping Kool Herc instead. When he explained what he created; I said as a DJ, that's not creation. I cant believe I'm living and seeing this nonsense. Everybody that worship hiphop from my era is trying strong arm the masses into worshipping these bronx cats. The jubalaires dont gotta claim hiphop. Thankyou RU-vid and everybody for exposing the jubalaires to the young generation right now. God please bless my forefathers and ancestors for leaving this art to us. My they souls SIP. I wish I would disregard them because they didn't claim that stinking demonic term hiphop. That word brings negative energy for some reason now. Its called rapping for life from this point on regardless when, where and how they did it! We saw the evidence. Evidence don't lie. Is battle rappers using a beat at these battles now? No. I've been to many shows and ddnt see a DJ. Everybody go to my page and see the sneak preview coming right now. I'm begging you. And pay attention to what my jamaican brothers that I know and knew personally? SIP father Coxsane Dodd. I wish you was here to see this in America! I hate that word break beat because I watched my whole neighborhood in 1970s dance off them soul music songs. That didn't take no needle off of nothing. That rocked off the whe whole song and a good time. The jubalaires and the others American artists are the fathers of my culture. They worship Kool herc like he sat in the studio and help james brown invent the funky drummer or something. He dont know how to do tricks on the set, rap or creat a beat. Are y'all serious? What platform he created for my whole nationality to worship? Maybe for the Bronx he did. They keep telling me till this day they had to wait like slaves for him to introduce they own American music to them. That's sounds crazy like rufus only made one copy of a record like do the funky penguin for only Kool Herc to play for the masses. And Barry Gordy only made one copy for Kool Herc to play only for the bronx cats. Man maybe I need to seek mental health or something. The American people went crazy all of sudden with these decisions.
Man I had read your comment again. Thankyou family. My Goodness thankyou. What's wrong with our people of society today. Respect to the Bronx for a sub culture they created behind the art of rapping that came before all of them was born but; I'm sitting here thinking that if the new generation bronx cats had came up with a term called any other word for singing; for example they said ok y'all let's call singing zip harmony for example and now Barry white and other singers are dead now in 2021; so now we're saying that Barry white and those that came before us, didn't claim that what they was doing on the microphone and recording over a beat didn't claim and say that they was zip harmony artists in 2021 because the new bronx generation made up a another word for singing; so now what they was recording back then dont count now because the new generation Bronx cats is singing in the street 2021? And now because the new generation of people alive now, who was never alive to talk to Barry white, didn't hear Barry white and those that came before us, say out they own mouth that they was apart of a newly invented word, zip harmony that was created by this new 2021 generation, the old singing artists dont count because they didn't claim that word zip harmony? Or call the original form of style of singing back then, zip harmony? Wow. Lmao. What human beings have became to be because of worshiping symbolism! This is crazy. Symbolism, Symbolism. Wow.
Black Americans also need to realize that the word toasting came from us too, not just the act itself. That's that old Iceberg Slim black American player's ball verbiage.
"I am giving out nothing but hard times and bubble gum and I'm fresh out of bubble gum" min 7:27 This line was used by Roddy Piper in the 80s movie "They Live" where he said "I came to kick ass and chew bubblegum and I'm fresh out of bubble gum".
I had picked up a book about 22 years ago on the Black tradition of Toasting. My cousin from Michigan came to town (Baltimore) and saw the book and flipped. He reminded me of how our grandfather used to "toast" in the tradition of Dolemite and the cat from the scene in Five on the Black Hand Side. I can't recall the title of the book, but I implore you to try to find it.
One of my friends Dads gave me one called “The Life” that collected Black toasts back in the late ‘90s that was actually from the ‘70s. I think Ice T said he was memorizing and speaking those before he began rapping.
Man Jayquan this is dope !.. i've heard of all these artists from the 40's and beyond but i really enjoyed the way you laced it all together . Just like a pair of Adidas with fat laces. BOOM! Peace.
Biz Markie has a track named Groovin where he amusingly pays homage to the rap cadence where your rapping or speaking with an open mouth & grin on your face.. UK Radio presenters of yesteryear also used to adopt an Atlantic accent where they would copy the Us cadence. This was parodied by a comedian duo named Smashey & Nicey . The radio dj is also copying the Us cadence in a scene in the 1972 Jamaican movie.. The harder they come. . Some additions. . There's a folk band named.. Love .. They have a song on there 1967 album named.. bummer in the summer. The Last Poets - It's a trip ...is a classic Jazz dance song in the Uk. Nikki Giovanni & The New York Community Choir - Ego Trippin. (1971) is a poem with funky beats & hand claps Yes yes JayQuan..
The Barber at 8:05 was the driver in Dog Day Afternoon - 1975. Also, was Gary Byrd the host / presenter, in the British, 'Arena' Hip Hop documentary, from 1984 called, 'Beat This - A Hip Hop History' ? Cheers.
Lot of folks go into that stream of Black musical talk. Oscar Brown Jr, Eddie Jefferson, etc. Ice T identified early rap with hustlers toasts when he heard Hip Hop.
I always liked this couplet Louis Jordan made on “Saturday Night Fish Fry”, “And there’s free admission/if you’re a cook/or a waiter/or a good musician.”
Thank you Jayquan for this history lesson & look back in time that I never knew about & I'm a 60 yr. old male from NYC who started listening to hip hop in the 80's although I was familiar with King Tim the Third & The Last Poets...blessings!
Great podcast brother. I'm not in the hip hop generation and don't really know the difference between hip hop culture and rap music. What I do know is when I was growing up (I'm 73) rapping was how you talked to a girl you liked. That is why guys like Issac Hayes, Lou Rawls , Jerry Butler, and Barry White were so popular. The first time I heard the song "Rapper's Delight", I thiught it was a nice song but more of a novelty song than the begginings of a different genre of music and why I never coukld really get into it because I thought of it more as "coming of age music" and by that time I was well into my 20s.
Way before hip-hop the origins of that pigmeat marham here comes the judge i got that 45 single till this day from my parents 45 record collection on chess records legendary blues label and a lot more Jay Quan amazing work brother keep the knowledge from growing in hip-hop peace out the foundation oh i forgot the beginning of that here comes the judge drum beat kool moe dee use that same drum beat on the song called bad bad bad on the funkee funkee wisdom album back in 1991 im out
Here comes the judge was definitely Rap, by modern-day rap standards. It wasn't "Proto" rap, at all. I've seen interviews of guys from the South Bronx discussing how that song influence them. When it came to rapping. I'm talking about Michael Wayne RU-vid page. He talks a lot and interviews a lot about hip hop history.
I'm familiar with Michael Wayne TV. In fact he has posted on this thread. I'll agree to disagree that what Pigmeat did was what the late 70s rap records were. I ended my piece (and stated throughout) that there was a clear influence.
@@TheFoundationhiphop There's hip-hop, and then there's rap. What they were doing was rap, what New York did, in the streets, for free, was Hip Hop culture. The moment Kurtis Blow, furious 5, sugar hill, signed their record contracts back '79, it wasn't hip hop, it was a musical genre for the corporations. That's rap. Last thing, I know that you kept regarding generations of Hip Hop and the contributions as "we" and "our". Unfortunately, brother, those New Yorkers will never accept you as part of their hip-hop culture, seeing that you are from the south, just like I am.
But of coarse by the way black folks been rhyming and spittin spirits, news and knowledge over drums for centuries way before colonization even happened it was hidden in the DNA nothing new and no shock // the youth gotta get this knowledge tho !!! respect & 1
Excellent video and commentary, Jay, as usual. This is why it's important to understand context because it puts everything in perspective. There are similarities, but I never fully accepted that these artists were actually "Hip Hop" -- even though, there was influence there. For those of you who say that these people are Hip Hop, then how come you don't place them in your top rap groups or soloists of all time? I've yet to hear anyone say that Gil Scott Heron, Muhammad Ali, or Rudy Ray Moore is the "Greatest Emcee of all time," nor have I heard anyone say that The Last Poets are "the greatest rap group." And even when you read major publications, and they have their top 50 list, none of the aforementioned are included, which tells me they're not considered "Hip Hop." Let's keep everything in context.
Certainly. Thank You. And if what these artists were doing was so similar to what rap became, then Don Cornelius, Black Radio, and our parents generation would likely have embraced it more than they did.
@@TheFoundationhiphop❤your time is now. Put out your version of a movie or documentary on hip hop history. This topic of who originated the genre is controversy. Your research skills are needed. ❤
Definitely, I didn't call him by name, and I definitely could have placed him under the pimp/jive talk category with Hustlers Convention. He is there performing with the Last Poets
"Let's Have some heat" was released by Pigmeat in 1956, he was going back and forth with his female partner like LL Cool J and LaShawn would - about 3-4 decades later.
I always say rapp before hiphop for a while i was saying the hip hop is the culture of rap but then again hip hop is its own thing which rap is a huge part of . Which we can talk about rap in talking blues and even griots tales and kene poetry in parts of africa and many of the history that you ran down. The thing is - its more of a culture and specific music dedicated to this sprechstime( speech song) vs that just appearing over somethjng established like blues jazz and so on....
The label says Al Grannum but if you listen you'd declare it's the same guy as in "Every Brother Ain't A Brother". ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-nh_3jk3vCME.html
Wow this here proved me wrong about hip hop culture beginning in the Bronx. Maybe the other 8 elements started in the bronx far as graffiti art on the trains and break dancing just to name of a few elements.
Let's look at the definition of INFLUENCE. To have an EFFECT on the character, DEVELOPMENT, or behavior on someone, SOMETHING OR AN EFFECT or the effect itself. You basically proved that young African Americans were watching and listening to all of that rapping and Cab Calloway's dancing, saying it was influential. So yes, those people DID INFLUENCE the youth who watched and listened to them and in turn took that talent and turned it into their own style and culture called HipHop and Rap. The word RAP itself was used by those individuals. From the youth copying them to form their style of rap, then later add the culture of MCs, breakdancing, graffiti, and dressing. Those individuals influenced HipHop, noone in America knew nothing about toasting. Who said they were HIPHOP artists. African Americans were responding to Carribeans and other non-African Americans who claimed that they CREATED HIPHOP and Rap.
From experience most of the people that say "Pigmeat, Cab Calloway, The Last Poets were the first rappers"..... do that to undermine and dismiss NYC as the birth of rap/hip hop. You go on social media from Facebook to RU-vid to IG pertaining to old school hip hop you see ppl from outside the east coast saying that in the comments
Well, because New York will claim that they invented breathing air, if you allow them to. You guys invented putting all the elements together, but you did not invent rapping. Which makes sense because New York is a big Melting Pot of styles Blended together, which is why DJing is popular in New York, which is why disco was popular in New York. It's all mixing and blending. But those Southern Roots are all in the DNA musically and genetically of every black person in New York.
@@C-Lyfe85 GTFOH! "Rappin'", within the scope, and context, that evolved through the street culture, of NYC, is indeed a creation of the NYC landscape, and the many factors, that came togethers, in the early days of what would become Hip-Hop. Did you not watch the video? Sure southern culture played a part. Probably played a HUGE part. But southerners, migrated all across the U.S. But only in NYC, you had various cultures mesh, and intertwine. You could never dismiss the Afro-Antillean culture, that was a staple, in NYC, and influenced what would become Hip-Hop. Rap (music), is strictly a NYC phenomenon. Nowhere else on planet earth, you'd seen anything resembling our culture.
@@C-Lyfe85 What else besides hip hop has New York tried to claim? All music has Southern roots but does that mean we give credit to the south for planting the seeds (cause our grandparents and ancestord are from there) or give credit to where the music/culture was incubated? That's a disingenuous comment. Jay Quan eloquently broke everything down in the video about the difference between what the radio deejays and Muhammad Ali's, Gil Scott Heron's were doing and the hip hop emcees were doing
@@bxdale83 Again NYC created TONS of shit. And I'm gonna be repeating myself here, by saying the south had a huge impact. But definitely NOT, the sole impact. Latin Soul, N.Y. Rican Funk, Salsa, Do-Wop, Mambo, Hard Rock, Disco, I can go on. These were things that were created, in the streets of N.Y., or morphed into something else, once it reached NYC.
@@randee4550 I agree with you. I be seeing your comments on different videos. I just hate when people who have an anti-NY agenda try to discredit NY by saying Hip Hop started down south. Rapping started in Africa, James Brown started breakdancing, Grafitti started in Egypt, etc etc etc
I like the general part about what you sayin for real , like doing something kinda similar to the art don't make it all dat I get it And ppl who allow the industry to call themselves hip-hop these days need to stop
“Here Comes the Judge” was the first Rap song. The elemental sound was absolutely there. I heard a Rap sounding song (lyrically) from the 40’s but the harmony and music was no where near Rap sounding.
@@ronmatthews So I guess Samuel Arnold's "Humpty Dumpty" should be considered the first Rap song too from 1797 huh? Just because it rhymed doesn't make it a Rap song. "Here Comes the Judge", with its syncopated on-the-one beat, had the elements of a true Rap song, thus it was... and it was THE FIRST.
@@gaffle-411 you sound so fucking dumb. Did you type that? Humpty Dumpty is a fucking written children's poem. You must be high? Since you don't know what hip hop is...go google it then respond.
@@ronmatthews You must have an aversion to reading. I said NOTHING about Hip Hop, nor did I allude to Hip Hop culture... I said “Rap song”. #readingisfundamental My Humpty Dumpty reference was just to point out that just because something rhymes does NOT make it a Rap song. That 40’s song with the guy speaking in rhythm can easily be conflated with any poetic rhyming works of the past (ie: Humpty Dumpty, etc). The problem is, it lacked the element(s) of a Rap song (rhyme + beat) which “Here Comes the Judge” clearly had. Just my opinion... try to contain your emotions.
@@gaffle-411 you on here trolling. Humpty Dumpty isn't a rap song. Because it is a stand alone poem. It's not rap or hip hop. Grow up you are too old to be trolling.
@@TheFoundationhiphop No Problem. I ran across your channel a few months ago while looking for some old school Grandmaster Flash mixtapes to check out. Glad I did!!
Well…in a word, YES. Hip-Hop didn’t just come out of a “bag”, complete and “ready to wear”. It’s been a progression, a generational BUILDING up to. These “bread crumps” are also the EVIDENCE of who created the genre. Apologies for all the metaphors, thanks for clearly connecting the dots.
My bad......they are honorarily inducted into Hip Hop along with James Brown, George Clinton etc.....their influence is TOO great to split hairs and leave them out...... especially when hip hop is more influenced than you imply.....imagine that the early (original school) grew up in households where the early music was played....they didn't have to dig through there parents records....they grew up listening to it because their parents PLAYED the music.. in the house, at church....etc.....we copied what they did and gave it a name.....but it's still based off of what they were doing....you just updated it and named it, made it cool and hip.....we just gave a name to what they were doing....which makes them us.....now if it wasn't rhyming syncopated over a beat sounding like a radio dj....so that you can make the party alive....I would agree.....but a BODY is made of arms, legs, head and a torso....if you take piece off it's less of a body....if the head isn't there it doesn't exist.....there IS no "whole" without the parts.....they are absolutely hip hop.....whether they knew it or not....we built it off of them.....and named what our interpretation of it was.....at least the emcee and dj element part of it.....which is really the MAIN ingredients to the elements of the culture.....
I'm so glad you did this segment here. cause i Notice some Individuals are low key trying to get their "Tariq Nasheed " on and Take "rap Music " into another Dimension and Take it deeper Than what it is. - STOP. STUDY. and APPRECIATE what this is... there will be traces Here and there but if you watch jayquan Channel he is giving the details you need to understand the Culture of Hip Hop - That which is previous is Not Hip Hop Cause along with the Performances there is Code to function in... the style, the dress, the slang, the graffiti they all encompass the Culture. Blessings for this fair and balanced piece Jayqyan!
By this logic or definition hip-hop ended with the recordings because there is no DJ, or break dancing or graffiti connected to the rapping music artist now.
If you don’t say Pigmeat is the first rap song, the Luminares, with a beat box and subject matter aren’t the first who. This sub genre called hip hop is the cultivation of certain elements to make the best party working together. But this what occurred because the absence of musical instruments and talented and creative children make the something out of nothing.
It seems like you keep conflating rap and hip-hop. "Speaking on a record" is different from speaking rhythmically on a record. If someone is speaking rhythmically and rhyming on the one, how is that not rap? It may not be emceeing, but it definitely is a rap. I understand that there's different forms, I just don't see why it's not in the rap category. Because it's not hip-hop? A lot of modern day rap is also not hip-hop. See, Pimp C, who agrees that ugk is not hip-hop. Yes, "modern day rap" is different and evolved. That doesn't make what Pigmeat did any different. He was landing on the one and you could lay his rap over rapper's delight. Another point: what about those hustler songs? You know the ones um talkin bout. Is that not rap? Genuine Question: one of the first rap songs I remember is "Roll It Up My Nigga". I'm sure you're familiar. To you , is that a rap song, hip-hop song, or other? I used to think it was both, now I think it's both for different reasons.
I'm not conflating anything. Because someone "raps" which is nothing more than urban slang for talking, doesn't mean that its Hip-Hop. Clearly Pigmeat was rapping, but what he was doing was not a part of Hip-Hop (which didn't exist yet). That's my consistent point throughout the video.
@@TheFoundationhiphop ok. That's it? Are you familiar with the song "Roll It Up My Nigga"? Do you see that as a hip-hop song? Would you be interested in an interview?
@Merchantwun By Success N Effect? That dropped in 1988 or so. I say this respectfully, if that's the first rap song you remember, that may be where the disconnect is. I'm not gonna split hairs, but that song is a part of Hip-Hop. Yes it's a Hip-Hop record. This piece is simply saying that those Issac Hayes, Millie Jackson, Jubalaires, Pigmeat songs contain rapping, but they are not connected to Hip-Hop culture. They had some influence on modern day rap, but they aren't Hip-Hop, neither are The Last Poets, Watts Prophets, Gil Scott Heron, etc.
@@TheFoundationhiphop lol! Yeah, I was bout 5, so yes. With respect, that has nothing to do with our disconnect. The point was to flesh out what you consider hip-hop and what you consider rap and we actually agree here. Lol I guess that's a no for the interview. Unfortunate.
That rhyme was said by Hank who we already know used Caz' Rhymes as well as some rhymes attributed to Hollywood. Again the biter thing is a farce because The Hotel Motel rhyme and many of King Tim's and so many others were shared rhymes.
Actually it did. The entire point of my piece is that rap alone is not Hip Hop. Combining rap (mcing), break beat djing, Graf and B boying is directly from the Bronx, specifically Afrika Bambaataa. The separate pieces alone have origins all over, but the combination of all of those separate pieces under the umbrella Hip Hop is definitely a NYC thing
@@TheFoundationhiphop Well put Brother. I can Understand that perspective. I stand corrected. NONE of the 5 elements of Hip Hop started in New York. It was just the place that all of the elements were emulated at the same time. 👍
