I don't really think of the Borg being involved personally. As for the movie at large, I really enjoy it conceptually, but I do think it could've been edited down for a bit tighter story without losing the grandeur or mystique of the story. Having said that, I do still enjoy watching the movie. Stay well out there, and God be with you, friend. ✝️ :)
My favorite of all Star Trek movies. The only Star Trek film that feels like it's science fiction first, Star Trek second. The 70s style futurism is beautiful.
The Borg are partly organic in nature, V'Ger is machine, a "living" machine but a machine. V'ger's technology is clearly far more advanced than the Borg and it is much more powerful. When Spock explores V'Ger's interior he specifically states that "whole galaxies" are recorded. There is no evidence that the Borg are extra-galactic.
@@rattywoof5259 He doesm't. _DATA: According to these coordinates, we have travelled seven thousand light years. And are located near the system J two five_ _RIKER:Travel time to the nearest starbase_ _DATA: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five_ _PICARD: Guinan, your people have been in this part of the galaxy._ Seven thousand lightyears isnothing: M33 is the Triangulum Galaxy, which is 2.73 *million* lightyears . I think you are thinking of that episode _Where No One Has Gone Before_ where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller and breaks the warp barrier
Not true, Seven of Nine clearly stated on several occasions that the Borg have extra galactic travel experience as well as trans dimensional experience.
@@rattywoof5259 You're mixing up two episodes. Episode 1x06 "Where No One Has Gone Before" is where the Enterprise first encounters the Traveller, breaks the warp barrier, and is taken to Galaxy M33, 2,700,000 light years away. Episode 2x16 "Q Who" is where Q transports the Enterprise near System J-25, at least 7,000 light years away from the nearest Federation outpost, and where they encounter the Borg for the first time.
I've always found it interesting that, after returning from his meld with V'Ger, Spock uses these exact words: "Any show of _resistance would be futile_ , Captain."
That was a bit before the mind meld. That was when they were first pulled into V'ger and decker suggested shooting the tractor beam emitter and spock stated "any show of resistance would be futile"
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie. It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung. At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective. They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger. So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
Interesting, but I rather like the idea that that computer world had no conquering ideas, but only wanted to collect knowledge. Also, the one backstory I'd like investigated and fleshed out is the race related to the whales who sent a probe to Earth in ST4.
Star Trek IV is such a trip. The opening premise is creepy and mysterious as hell and then the movie turnes around and becomes a great comedy. I'd almost prefer they didn't explore the whale probe since whatever they could come up with would completely destroy the mystery and creepyness.
For me the debate ends with the small universe problem. It's just not fun if all AI is related somehow to the Borg. But that doesn't mean the question should have been asked. I love debating if the Borg is related to Control or to the Reaper-like, because it is a tool to investigate what makes those different, more than what makes them alike.
That's a great point. I think the only connection the Borg should have with V'Ger is that they would probably either envy it, or consider it to be almost deific. They would have assimilated knowledge of it at Wolf 359 (maybe even earlier), and learned of a machine that united with two organic life forms to complete its purpose. It possibly then achieved perfection, and ascend ... somewhere. How could the Borg not sit up and take notice of that!? Come to think of it, maybe that's part of the reason why they're so interested in the Federation and Earth. They could want to learn everything they can about it to see how this came to pass.
@@irregularassassin6380 I believe there was a book about an ascended V'ger in the far future. Might be related to that God particle the Borg are interested in.
Since we had Picard S01 come out, I really want the machine civilization that created Vger to have been the same that created the beacon that was driving the Zhat Vash insane etc. To me that makes a LOT more sense, especially regarding Vger's reaction to biological crew members. The Borg would understand what those are right off the bat. Also, what purpose would the Borg have in upgrading a space probe and letting it loose? This doesn't help them assimilate a damn thing.
Actually the information it gathered definitely would help them, but they wouldn't have any use for a primitive probe other than the information it carried of species that built it. They wouldn't have any interest in upgrading the probe itself and sending it on its way though.
YES! Thank you! This is exactly what I was expecting them to reveal at the end of ST:Picard. In a show with as many call backs as ST:P, I was 100% certain that this was where they were going with that. There's only ever been one fully synthetic civilization mentioned in Star Trek, and that was the creators of V'Ger. Seemed like a huge missed opportunity.
@@charlesajones77 That's not wholly true, but V'Ger's uplifters were probably the most established. There are two other wholly mechanical "civilizations" (that I can think of). Those being the nanobots Wesley Crusher accidentally uplifted, and the Exocomps. The latter should count because in Lower Decks an Exocomp joined Starfleet and referenced having a father. This likely mans that they are multiplying, and could have a small civilization somewhere. Granted, I think your point still stands. If they had revealed that, it would have gone a long way to saving that season in my eyes.
@@irregularassassin6380 Opening the Pandoras box of both species knowing about humans, and raising the question of why they would want to uplift a human probe?
I don't like the idea that humanity created the Borg in any sense, but I'd be fine with V'ger having contacted them at some point. Rumors about the Alpha quadrant are already somewhat present in other quadrants, as demonstrated in Voyager and DS9, even if part of that knowledge comes from the Founders, they seem to know an awful lot more about us than we do about them. I think my favorite version of this theory is that the Borg modified V'ger and sent it back home, possibly causing it to evolve as it went until it became what we see in the film
It would be fascinating if, in some future series, they mentioned the wide path of assimilation/destruction left behind by V’ger. There must be an empty section or sections of the galaxy, depending on the route it took.
Very poor idea to have ever leaked out. Had the Borg been the creators of V'Ger, imagine them several hundred years later - how much further they'd be. The world described in TMP is a machine world - not a cyborg world.
The problem with the Borg is their insatiable desire to multiply through assimilation. As Seven said in the "Friendship One" episode of ST:Voyager, "if the Borg had encountered any Terrestrial technology (prior to Q snapping his fingers at Picard in ST:NG), then the Borg would have taken this calling card as an invitation to assimilate Earth centuries sooner than their first attempt."
doesn't mean that the introduction of assimilating organic matter couldn't have come later. Maybe the machine world became really curious about exploration after meeting V'ger and that's when they started integrating organic matter into their structure? Maybe the best way for the machines to understand these organic makers that their probe friend kept going on about was to assimilate them? Last but not least, pretty sure there is an explicit reference in Voyager about the Borg collective nearly collapsing in the distant past. Technological progress doesn't have to be a linear function.
"V'Ger wishes to join with the creator" later takes on a more literal meaning closer to Borg assimilation, although it manifested itself as a lightshow in TMP.
@@BigC073 If you watch Season 1 of TNG, there is an indication that the Borg are already around, Remember they had dropped several throw away lines that Starbases and outposts along the neutral zone were disappearing, which was why the Enterprise was out that way, same with the Romulans, and both sides thought the other was doing it. In the episode the Neutral Zone, Wolf even comments about the outpost looked as though "a great force had come and scooped the outpost off the planet." and wondered how the Romulans pulled it off. The Borg were already in the area, just not ready to go after Earth. Q snapping his fingers if anything, allowed humanity to become aware of a threat in such a way, that the borg wouldn't conclude they needed to make an immediately move on Earth.
V'ger is Nomad 2.0 Expect it's older... but BIGGER! No, really. The "Changeling" plot is undoubtedly the basis for TMP, from the human probe encountering alien technology, transforming into completely unique entity, and having the power to destroy whole planets. They both struggle to understand how a physically (possibly mentally) inferior organic species could be their creators... Is this patronizing? Like this is on some commentary option of an mid 2000s box set of Star Trek I-VI, right?? All I'm trying to say is that nobody talks about Nomad being Borg... why do they talks about V'ger being Borg? Because all the Star Trek canon is linked? What are you... a Star Wars fan?
I actually saw the motion picture in the theatre in 1979, the overwhelming comments from my social circle at the time were; 1. Too much time spent showing the ship, and 2) not enough battle scenes. This was you best work so far. In my opinion. Good job Tyler.
Small Universe Syndrome. That about says it all. I think V'Ger and the Borg are entirely separate and hope to never find out more about the Machine Planet
Right? I'm baffled so many fans just cant accept they there can be more than one machine species in this massive universe, I don't get the obsession's people have trying to connect them. Plus like you said the mystery is half the fun.
I had been thinking there might have been a connection between the super synths from Picard but I think the machine planet was just one of those Rodenberries that was never meant to be more than just the story at hand.
The Vger - Borg connection is stated in William Shatner's Star Trek novel, "The Return" that's immediate sequel to Generations movie. It Has a Borg, Romulan alliance. They ressurect Kirk from his tomb after stopping Sung. At one point Spok is impersonating a Romulan, when the Borg recognise him as part of the collective. They aren't hostile because they see him as Borg. Because he mind melded with Vger. So so if Spok is a Borg. Then Vger did meet the Borg.
I like the idea that V’Ger and the Borg are connected, but I don’t like how certain media explained it. As such, I made up my own. My personal headcanon is that the wormhole that sent Voyager 6 to the planet of the living machines also sent it to the past by almost a thousand years. Then V’Ger went back to Earth via the same wormhole, sending it to the future but remaining in contact with the living machines of the past via the wormhole. When V’Ger ascended to a new form of life by joining with a human, the living machines of the past saw everything, and it made them reevaluate their position. Where once they considered organics to not be true lifeforms, they now realize that not only are they true, but true perfection cannot be achieved without them. As such, they started integrating organic life into their being, and with organic life comes new ideas and concepts like the need to expand and conquer, all under the idea that they are the pinnacle of evolution, and they only wish to share their perfection with the rest of the galaxy, after all, when evolution comes to call, resistance is futile.
I wouldn't mind a series based on a Federation Ship sent to find V'Gers remakers, but beyond that, I like it the way it us with all the wonder and such.
There was an early theory that the machine world was a Borg faction that had moved away from biological paths as the way to perfection and sought only a machine perfection. Hence when they found V'ger, they treated it as a little cousin. If this was the case, these machine Borg may have left the Milky Way in search of 'Perfection' in the wider universe.
When Kirk uncovered the name and realized V’Ger was actually Voyager 6, Commander Decker pointed out that “Voyager 6 disappeared into what they used to call a black hole.”
My math describes the slope of the singularity of a black hole to be a spike instead of a curve, therefore the slope goes to infinity, which conceptually allows it to connect to another spike, which could be another black hole or the corresponding white hole.
The most important argument here is that the two parties in question use vastly different categories of technology, with more than just the level of technology being different. And I was expecting to see more said and written here about 1967's "The Changeling" episode. After his mind meld with Nomad, Spock never even implied that Tan Ru's origin was a planet populated by biological beings.
Here's some food for thought: in Star Trek Voyager it was a section that they called the void as it was void of stars. Could that Be where V'ger crossed the Delta quadrant?
I remember being told the "V'Ger made by the Borg" theory was canon and it never made sense to me. It makes more sense that (if that one book mentioned was canon) Spock was given a type of psychic protection from the Borg or the Borg know better than to cross V'Ger and anyone who is part of its consiousness. That would make that book much better IMO
No, V'Ger was not created by the Borg. The Voyager Probe was found and altered by another Race that was capable of traveling from Galaxy to Galaxy as they were passing thru our Galaxy at the time. This unknown Race will be encountered when the Federation sends a ship to explore the newly formed Inter Galactic Trans Warp Conduit that was newly created and is now being guarded by the Borg in the series Picard. The Conduit will lead to another Galaxy where the other Race resides.
my idea was always when decker and the v'ger probe combined at the end and v'ger disappeared it all got transported to the delta quadrant and the being they became was the first borg.. hell.. could even have gone back in time
..also "the changeling" from TOS could have been an early form of the Borg (in part). "The other..ton-Ru" spock gained this information in the mind meld with the changeling.
I have suspected that V'Ger, Tan-Ru, and Nomad were kindred. Maybe after repairing Voyager and sending it out, they built Tan Ru to find out whatever happened to V'Ger and in the process Tan Ru ran into Nomad.
The Motion Picture is definitely my favorite Star Trek movie. I saw the re-release of the Motion PIcture in theatres a couple years ago and it was phenomenal. Unfortunately this is a Star Trek movie not everyone appreciates but I will always love it.
V'ger created the Borg by merging (assimilating) Decker. That is how the organic component was initially added to the machine. The evolution into current Borg is just that, evolution.
I have issues with fan theories that place first contact with the Borg being before the events of the Season 1 TNG episode "The Neutral Zone" Though highly limited I believe this is the point that the Borg first became aware of the Federation and the RSE. It was likely a small ship that assimilated some Federation and Romulan colonies on the outskirts of the two territories. From this assimilation the Borg would have learned that both the Federation and the RSE were extensive in both people, territory, and technology. Far too vast for a ship that size to assimilate in it's entirety, and so that ship sent a message back home and moved on, leaving Federation and RSE Territory in search of other prospects. The Borg then dispatched the ship that the Enterprise -D encountered thanks to Q. Q did not expose the Federation to the Borg, he was letting the Federation know that the Borg were already on their way. I don't think Q's motives were in the very least hostile. He was informing them of a threat they had to prepare for. He just couldn't do it directly. He had to do it in a way the Enterprise crew would expect. Q was not the bad guy in this episode.
There was a book by William Shatner written after his last fling in the original star trek and the next generation franchises. According to the book the creator created the Borg following the merger of the guy in the first movie and the shave headed woman. They were the first Borg.
Wow, wish I catch this video right when it came out. AWESOME. A few things I'll share. I actually am more okay with tying the Borg's origin back to V.GER and the original cast. I don't think it detracts from the story or narrative, although it obviously makes it heavily human-centric, but I think there could be relevance in that ie be careful of our own hubris and what it can bring. And I do just generally like bringing it back full circle to the cast of the original series, but that's just my preference. A few other points I'd mention, yes, at the end of ST TMP the now fused V'GER/Decker vanishes, and you're correct it's not implied it went back in time. However it's not implied where it went either. There's really no implication what happened to it at all other than it continues to exist. So, if it's ok to assume it went off *somewhere* else it's not a huge nonsequitor leap to think it could have gone off *sometime* else too. It's just given as a blank slate what happened to it. The implications are wide open. This is a bit of a nuanced view, but I don't think trivial point, V'GER and the Borg do have different motivations, *BUT* the entity we see (briefly) at the very end of the film is no loner V'GER. It's V'GER *AND* Decker. V'GER no longer exists at the end of the film, and neither does Decker. *It's something new.* The merger is a new stage in both V'GER and Decker's story. What we see is a true transformation of Spock's "child", or possibly the very first assimilation, but it is now a different entity with Decker. *V'GER's original purpose has been satiated and quenched.* It's not hard to assume that this new entity's motivation has now changed, actually that's pretty much confirmed by the end of the film, but we're just not sure what it will do, what it wants, or what its new motivation is. But the difference between V'GER's motivation (or whatever it has become after fusing) and the Borg's is not necessarily in conflict by the end of the film. It is interesting to note, though, that if this entity is NOT the source of the Borg, then it's still presumably floating around out there in the main Star Trek timeline. What has it been doing during this time and journey with both V'GER and Decker's perspectives? It's interesting to consider. Maybe it's totally exited the Galaxy to another part of the Universe. who knows.
I stand by my outlandish theory that the Borg are an offshoot of the Ori and Ancients and more closely related to a later evolution of Reaver. Hahahaha
I don't see any point in this theory. The V'ger was created by a civilization of machines that was unaware of organic life. We know that that machine covilization showed great generosity and solidarity towards the Voyager probe. They greatly improved its capabilities to help it complete its mission of exploration and communication with its creators. The borg are half machine and half organic and they have never shown generosity of solidarity against any other civilization they only interest is assimilating they are not even curious
Theory: V'ger broke through the world-line and ended up in an alternate dimension that we love as the canon startrek where it ended up in a distant time and space, got modified and went onward.
How bout the connection between Hellraiser and the Borg? The cube ship is the lament configuration, and the Borg look a lot like the cenobites!!! Plus Rodenberry’s idea came out around the same time as Clive Barker’s franchise!
I feel that veger is not the same as the Borg.veger is much more powerful. Where is the Borg is more like an experiment that went terribly wrong. Maybe it's better left a mystery.
Is it possible that the merger between Decker and V'Ger in spawning a new life form might have something do with the Q Continuum? They never capitalized on the most unique life form ever encountered. A new "nearly omnipotent" consciousness could have instantaneously extruded into the quantum realm not constrained by what we understand as linear time. The Q could have originated with V'Ger but having the new ability to transcend time would give the "illusion" of an ancient god-like species. That might explain Q's obsessive preoccupation with Picard and the Enterprise as he still might have memories of how the original Enterprise was taken from him on the very mission that led to his origins. So many story possibilities that were never pursued that could have been very interesting. Remember how Q essentially engineered the Federation's first encounter with the Borg? It suggests there is some connection there, again, story possibilities that were never explored.
This is ridiculous! V'ger's technology was way beyond Borg more like the Transformers home world. Borg with that level of technology would be unstoppable!An energy Shield surrounding it 82 au's in diameter, who could stop that if it was belligerent. AU is astronomical unit it is the distance between the Earth and the Sun when they're at the closest point.
V'ger went through a temporal Rift in space, encountered a machine world, was altered, became Self Aware and took over the Machine World then left to return to Earth, the Machine World in the Distant Past, then went looking for V'ger, upon finding humanoids in the Delta Quadrant the Machines joined with Them seeking perfection and gave birth to the Borg!💪🗽💪🇺🇸✊
I don’t think I’m my crappy opinion that the Borg and V’ger have anything to do with one another, they are completely different entities, similar goals but still too different from one another.
I dont think the Borg would create V’ger. However the AI empire seen at the end of Star Trek Picard certainly is a good theory for who might have “upgraded” V’ger. First of all this AI empire definitely helps other machines who are trying to gain intelligence and better themselves. Also V’ger destroys life without thought because it was upgraded by those AI that think the same way.
Ok... As I mentioned in the, "Did VGER create the Borg?" video... Did VGER create the Borg? Or... did the Borg create VGER? We will not know the answer to that until Paramount creates the movie and/or tv show that says whether it did, or didn't. To speculate on that notion would be a waste of time. Until that idea is created by Star Trek's owners... that idea cannot exist. No movie. No tv show. No canon. No VGER/Borg, Borg/VGER birth. However... that particular movie would definitely get me into a movie theater. Tie the next Star Trek movie into TMP, to an earlier form of the Borg. Of course, Chris Pine would have to go through the motions of an earlier movie. But hey... he's done it once before. Right?
I think it did get thrown to another part of lanikaea, met a machine race out there, gobbled up some galaxies and other data and then found a way to travel like The Traveller and just came back home. Nothing to do with the borg but where the wormhole it fell into was probably near kling space so it returned there first and backtracked home.
ST:P Reapers would seem to be a more likely solution to this question. Since they would have a reason to use V'ger for their own purposes in finding subjugated machine life and defending them. All the worlds V'ger came across would have been scanned, cataloged and why not reported to the Reapers what was found on them? It would be mere luck then, that OST dealt with V'ger rather than say, ST:NG before Measure of a Man, when Data is given rights.
Did the Borg Create V'ger? *NO!!!* Intergalactic synths from Picard were a fevered dream brought about in a hospital bed whilst dying from Irumodic Syndrome - which explains the space flowers and sonic screwdriver & Picard2 is the last vestiges of flickering neurons flaring up one last time before expiry). EDIT: The Motion Picture is my favourite Trek movie.
What's interesting about the Black Hole account is that Decker says "Voyager 6 disappeared into what they used to call a Black Hole". To me this implies Voyager 6 did not encounter a literal Black Hole, but a spatial phenomenon unknown to humanity at the time. They classified it as a Black Hole, but clearly they wouldn't call such an anomaly a Black Hole in the 23rd century. I do not believe the Borg created V'ger for the reasons you provided. The civilization who built V'ger are considerably beyond the Borg technologically. I also disagree that the Borg were created by V'ger. It's more likely that they are two completely separate entities, but I do believe they may have encountered one another at some point. V'ger is a living machine of unimaginable power and the Borg strive to evolve beyond their current form. We know from the Queen in First Contact that they "evolved to include the synthetic", which means they desire to shed themselves of their organic limitations and become fully artificial beings. If V'ger passed through Borg space on its way to Earth, then it must have been a god in the eyes of the Borg. V'ger is the personification of everything the Borg wish to achieve. It's my belief that V'ger passed through Borg space and after moving beyond their territory they lost sight of it, but continued moving in that direction. V'ger would encounter humanity, merge with them and evolve into a higher life-form. The Borg would eventually learn of humanity after receiving a transmission from 24th century drones left over from their time travel excursion in First Contact. When the Borg found humanity and studied their history, they finally learned what happened to V'ger. It was at that point their priorities changed and they desired to assimilate humanity. DECKER: "Jim, I want this. As much as you wanted the Enterprise, I want this." Q: "Understand you? You're nothing to him. He's not interested in your life-form. He's just a scout, the first of many. He's here to analyze your technology." Q: "The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced. They're not interested in political conquest, wealth or power as you know it. They're simply interested in your ship, its technology. They've identified it as something they can consume." RIKER: "What the hell do they want with you?" SHELBY: "I thought they weren't interested in human life-forms, only our technology." PICARD: "Their priorities seem to have changed." QUEEN: "We too are on a quest to better ourselves. Evolving toward a state of perfection." DATA: "Forgive me. The Borg do not evolve. They conquer." QUEEN: "Are you offering yourself to us?" PICARD: "Offering myself? That's it. I remember now. It wasn't enough that you assimilate me. I had to give myself freely to the Borg... to you." QUEEN: "You flatter yourself. I've overseen the assimilation of countless millions. You were no different. PICARD: "You're lying. You wanted more than just another Borg drone. You wanted a human being with a mind of his own, who could bridge the gulf between humanity and the Borg. You wanted a counterpart, but I resisted. I fought you. QUEEN: "You can't begin to imagine the life you denied yourself." The Borg wanted to be like V'ger; Fully artificial life-forms. They learned V'ger merged with a human and evolved beyond our understanding. The Borg now desire to assimilate humanity in order to do the same, but Decker had merged with V'ger willingly and the Borg forcibly assimilate people against their will. They know someone must willingly give themselves to them, but this has not happened yet.
Another planet also called Earth in another star system, where the humans there fought machines and the Machines won lead by Lord Dread. Early resistance was lead by Captain Power and with a small squad then once defeated. Lord Dread transitioned to his, uh, her true gender as the Borg Queen.
I have to came clean here. I didnt notice the borg in cyborg for all these years. I mean you wouldnt expect them to have such an uninspired name. In univers it might be explained as happenstance but still.
No. They would simply have assimilated it. They wouldn’t bother trying to create a sentient machine and send it on its way. Now, did vger encounter a machine planet, then on its journey home, encounter the romulans, which vger was able to fight off, but the romulans got some tech which allowed them to create the Borg.
I think whatever civilizations people or person created the borg could have been related to the same groups etc to vger but the connection wouldn't be very obvious or strong if at all
I think the Borg is less and less likely. I think it has more to do with the Picard series than anything. (As much as thought it was dumb) the extrauniversal AI that are summoned at the end of the first season seem more likely the genesis of something like V'ger. The wormhole or whatever the Voyager probe fell through could as easily have led to wherever those things are as anywhere else. they're not exactly friendly to life, I could easily see them remodulating a simple probe into a machine capable of digitally scanning, recording and storing an entire galaxy.
I don't think Vger created the Borg accidentally or whatever. If there is a connection I think they were both created or upgraded by the machines and went there own way.
I do not think that the Borg ever came across V'Ger. Even the Borg didn't have the kind of technology that the Voyager probe had, and if they did encounter Voyager probe, they themselves would have been assimilated by the probe and broken down into data for the probe to consume.
As slow as the Voyagers travel, it would take far more than 400-500 yrs to reach another quadrant of the galaxy, so, no, V'ger was not created by the Borg. V'ger was created by a race of sentient machines, that recognized the Voyager probe as one of their own kind, though gar more primitive, this was already known. They may have even seen Voyager as part of a progenitor race, that they sprang from.
V'Ger created the robotic borg, send them into the universe to find the creator ! But they became smarter than their initial programming ! ;) The robotic borg merged with organic creatures to increase their chance of finding and understanding the creator ! =D
My question is was that date broadcast to Starfleet or United earth ( nasa ) century's worth of date , its strange they did make storys about what was discovered , new civilisations or life unknown to the federation. I remember dialogue in Voyager stays Starfleet would be busy for decades analysing data from Voyager. ( uss Voyager)
I wish they wouldn’t be connected. Fan theories of any canon always want to connect things. But space is so unimaginably big (see Douglas Adams) I just don’t see the necessity. The universe gets smaller if you try to connect everything.
Some mysteries are better remaining mysteries. Who knows where Voyager 6 popped out after it's Black Hole adventure? Who knows what the machine race did to it to allow it to gather "all knowledge". Let it remain the mystery
OK! About to watch the video, but am gonna say before that I have always thus far rejected this theory for a host of reasons. Let's see if Tyler can change my mind!
In the Star Trek novel series "Cold Equations" V'ger was actually an extra-dimensional entity created when the Voyager probe went into a different reality. I thought it was a better direction than the Borg, they get so overplayed these days.
Yeah, they do. I forget what it was, but their was a book that tried claiming the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine" was built as a borg weapon, but not only is that a boring answer, there was no reason it was needs to be tied to them and it was supposed to be from outside the galaxy anyway
@@commanderproton7763 Exactly, I don't understand how they come to that conclusion, Spock even says they traced back its path and it came from outside the galaxy. Its right in the episode.
Well this theory that V'ger and Borg is really old in Star Trek history .And there was a book with the entire Star Trek history from the movies and the shows .Which showed that V'ger might have been the Borg Homeworld .And it was the Star Trek Continuum with all the history and dates in Star Trek .So you should find that now hard to find book ,since it would answer some more querions for you .
What an amazingly intelligent and coherent discussion of this question! My personal feeling is that no, V'ger doesn't really resemble the Borg in almost any way, nor do the Borg have anything (stylistically) in common with V'ger. They just look like different technologies with different origins, and that's what I'm sticking with.
My feeling is that the machine planet V'ger found is the machine species the synths contact at the end of season 1 of _Picard._ It would explain their godlike power AND why they left as soon as the signal the synths were sending stopped.
The Borg might have been alot different and more primitive when Voyager came in contact with them. Remember it took a considerable amount of time for Voyager to come back so during that time the Borg would have made quite a few technological advancements making their technologies look different. A computer from 2022 looks alot different than one from 1977 so you could imagine how many phases the Borg could of gone through.
@@myrtistaylor5759 sorry for repeating myself, but this! Not enough people consider that the Borg and V'ger may not have created/been created by each other, but maybe they both have a common ancestor so to speak? Why does it have to be so binary?
@@machinebeard1639 wrong. They knew and they were already headed towards the alpha quadrant. All Q did was temporarily speed up the process to show picard their not prepared or properly equipped for what lies ahead. Contact with the Borg was inevitable and the colective already had some humans well before leaving the delta quadrant
My 'head canon' had always been that V'ger emerged across the galaxy out of a Kerr black hole hundreds of thousands of years in the past. That would have allowed it plenty of time to traverse the galaxy, collect data, and contemplate itself, and accounts for the apparent extreme age of the probe. I assumed that the machine planet had long since gone extinct by the time V6 got back to Earth.
William Shatner explored this idea in his book "Star Trek: The Return." Kind of an underrated book. It picked up after "Star Trek: Generations," and featured Kirk being resurrected by the Borg.
Borg created V'ger: The borg don't take in strays, hand out freebie tech then let the decked out entity go on its merry way. They integrate. Devour. Assimilate. V'ger created the Borg: V'ger's mission was to amass knowledge for the sake of amassing knowledge. The Borg sought perfection, to which amassing knowledge was only the means to an end. V'ger does not utilize the information it gathers. Therefore V'ger would not purposefully create the Borg. If the Borg got a knowledge boost from V'ger, they must have actively gathered that data from V'ger, meaning they would have already been on their mission toward amassing knowledge to attain perfection, so V'ger, again, would not be their originator in any way, shape or form. This connection is such a damn annoyance to see dredged up time and time again when it takes literally no effort to dismiss...
That doesn't preclude the possibility that V'ger created the Borg and that they originally had the same mission, but that the Borg's mission was changed or corrupted later on, possibly after V'ger lost contact with them.
@@Mabus16 It does, because V'ger does not formulate the idea to merge with the carbon life forms before such a merge is being suggested, up until then it considers them to be an infestation preventing it from communicating with its creator. Therefore it would have not made any sense for this entity to jump to the solution to merge machine with organics beforehand.
@@dominic.h.3363 Again, how do you know that this didn't occur after whatever entity V'ger created lost contact with V'ger? You're assuming that just because one was created by the other that they couldn't have diverged after being separated.
@@Mabus16 Because superintelligent machines and/or hive minds don't tend to make shit up as they go... and you assigning an attribute to an entity it does not display in canon is just a lazy method to make a cube fit into a circle shaped hole. Almost as lazy as time travel to shape the chain of causality to your liking...
"Note, Vger said, "machine planet" not "cybernetic planet"." On Picard, aren't the Higher Synthetics supposedly *very* ancient synthetic beings? As far as the Borg, isn't the theory that they started out all machine, but then Decker joined with V'Ger and then the Borg possibly came from that? (So, not so ancient, regardless of whether there is a distinction between machines with artificial intelligence versus cybernetic beings -- though this may be a distinction without a difference.)
@@mmortal03 cybernetic requires both synthetic and organic components. The border are called such because they are cyborgs. Synthetics are do not posess biological components.
It was Cybertron. The Quintessons were the ones that created V'Ger. It's canon now. V'Ger's call was clearly "Bah-weep-grah-na-weep ninny-bog." If it was connected to anything within the Trek universe, it had to be from the weird metal tentacle aliens from the end of Picard season 1. That actually helps both shows, I think.
I've never really understood the desire to connect the Borg with V'Ger. As viewers, I think we're meant to connect with V'Ger as something intrinsically tied to humanity, yet vast, incomprehensible, and mysterious. It's supposed to fill us with awe, and over-explaining it kills that. And as for the Borg, I feel like their origin is sufficiently baked in to their very premise: At some point in the past (I know there are beta canon specifics), a group of people who used cybernetic enhancements eventually networked and created a collective consciousness, and the rest is history. There's nothing to connect these other than the fact that both have some AI components, as you stated n the video. Side note: I just recently discovered your channel, and I'm tearing thorugh your back catalogue. Really interesting explorations of the potential science, especially biology, behind Trek.
It was a main plot point of the star trek legacy video game. one of the best str trek games around and published by paramount so lost of ppl think cannon
I feel more like V'ger is actually the genesis of the Borg, and the first birth of the concept of merging machine with man. I feel like the inhabitants of the machine world are wholly separate from the Borg, and instead simply contributed to its existence. I might be wrong, I am not exactly up to date with Star Trek lore and what is canon, but that's how I always thought of it.
It would be poetic for the machine world that encountered V’ger to actually have come across a species that were both scientifically curious, but dying out from a biological plague of some kind, and the machine world entities discovered this species and decided to “rescue” them… saving them from their fate, but creating the Borg in the process.
In Voyager when charity and seven of 9 was inside discovered the mars mission they also discovered material simular to organic metal that could have been from the machine world.
