Did the Brotherhood of Steel let Sarah Lyons die? - Fallout 4 Theory 

Maxon: Execute Order 66 Paladin: It will be done, my lord.

So they pulled a for the watch on her

For those of us who played Fallout 3, Sarah Lyons was an IMPORTANT character. That might be why her off-screen death in Fallout 4 felt so...unceremonious. Follow us on Facebook | Facebook.com/ShoddyCast Follow us on Twitter | twitter.com/ShoddyCast Follow Austin | twitter.com/arhourigan Support the show | www.patreon.com/ShoddyCast

That's one thing I hated, she died. I really liked her.

That always struck me as a bit odd... Experienced combat veteran, leader of the Lyons' Pride, Sentinel of the Brotherhood of Steel, tough as nails and probably chews 'em for breakfast.... and she "fell in combat" after the single most dangerous threat to the Capitol Wasteland had already passed? _Sure._ I'll believe that. Whoever was responsible did some pretty tidy work, though, I'll give em that.

I just gave Preston my General Uniform, he's clearly the General.

I really love Sarah... I hope she's secretly alive and comes back in a DLC like Joshua Graham... i want my warrior wife back

Disrespecting the Brotherhood, that's something a synth would do. Ad Victorium

Considering the vagueness of how Sarah died, maybe there will be a future DLC called "Reforged Steel" that tackles the issue. Maybe she didn't die after all...

In my own personal head cannon, The Lone Wanderer and S. Lyons ran off together. They faked their deaths and disappeared into the wastes to start a new life. Hence why we hear nothing of the LW's interactions with the BOS during Fo4 as he was considered a deserter and Sarah was thought to be dead but died in what could be considered questionable circumstances. The vagueness of the entry is due to the fact that they had help from friends inside the brotherhood. Think Rothchild and Star-Paladin Cross.

I knew I didnt like this Brotherhood. The way I see it, they're no better than the Enclave.

we all know that the best BoS branch is the Midwestern BoS and if you say nah.. you're a green skin

Star paladin was next in line for elder than Lyons but both are dead. I feel like Maxon and the "Outcast" did a co-op job of taking them out and making him leader

That's why I prefer Caesar's Legion over the Brotherhood. If they're gonna kill an old leader (Joshua Graham) at lesst they're gonna make it as flashy as possible...

Wait a minute... if the brotherhood simply "reintegrated" the outcasts into the Brotherhood of Steel then why did the entire brotherhood change their power armor uniform colors to that of the brotherhood outcasts? If you'll remember/ see from this video the Brotherhood of Steel's power armor in Fallout 3 was colored silver and blue while the outcast's power armor was colored black and red (I would single out outcast power armor for this reason), but in Fallout 4 the Brotherhood of Steel changed it to the black and red of the outcasts. While cosmetically it is an improvement I still find it odd, what if the outcasts performed a coup on the Brotherhood of Steel? They would have killed Sarah Lyons as they would've seen her as corrupt or foolish while Maxson they would certainly have kept alive due to his heritage and their stout belief in their traditions, and they most certainly would have given him the role of Elder. This would explain the brotherhood's cosmetic change, their change in personality and beliefs since Fallout 3, and Sarah Lyon's unceremonious demise with little to no recognition. Or at least that is my thought on the subject.

It would make sense, I was playing Fallout 3 yesterday; I was talking to a brotherhood outcast and He mentions that when He resumes contact with the western chapters... Elder Lyons will be put in his place, even if that place is in front of a firing squad.

I never would have thought the brotherhood would do something so awful. You know whats even worse? This settlement is in danger, here I'll mark it on your map.

High Elder Maxson II, son of Roger Maxson and father of John Maxson, did actually die in battle too. In 2155 he led an attack on a group of Vipers and was shot in the face with a poisoned arrow. The bastard was unhelmeted for some reason. Anyways, he only gets a few lines on some random ass terminal too. How unceremonious and suspicious it might sound, Sarah falling in battle and only getting a few lines to remember her by might not be that unique.

I know a general who frequently takes a personal role in ground assaults, thel Vadam

Dammit, Bethesda pulled a EA. Anton Slavik was a beloved character in Command and Conquer Tiberian Sun, However when EA took over they killed him off screen. Bethesda did the same with Sarah.

I don't like how War centered the BOS has become.

(Told by Nadine as you take a riverboat to parts unknown) The waters we're treading are slow going, so you might as well keep your ears open and listen to what old Nadine has to say. A few fears back, folks in the Capital Wasteland began to see about a force in coming from the west called the Brotherhood of Steel. Didn't know much about them, except that they were tech folks. Sent out patrols to clear out the wastelands. We've seen our share of cults, but the Brotherhood of Steel, they were honest traders. Good fighters, too. Raiders wouldn't tangle with 'em But then the Enclave appeared in the Capital Wasteland. I doubt you know much about them. Regardless the the woman who helped lead the charge against the Enclave was the Elder's own daughter, Sarah Lyons. Legend goes that Sarah was the meanest, toughest bitch in the whole damned Brotherhood. The Brotherhood won't talk about her. Maybe they're ashamed. Not sure how they can blame her... Well after becoming Elder, the Sarah Lyons finally met her match. Some Brotherhood members took her down and dragged her to the edge of the Potomac River. These malcontents had to make an example for the others, to show them that even at the highest level, failure to uphold the codex wouldn't be tolerated. They had had Lyons covered in weights, given a power armor with no fusion core and thrown into the Potomac River. People say she didn't even struggle on the way down. Not long after, some of the initiates and scribes started to talk. Said Lyons wasn't dead. Shouldn't have been any surprise. All this talk bothered some folks, so they raised little Arthur Maxson on a pedestal, and forbade anyone from speaking Sarah Lyons' name. Wanted to erase her from history. They got their wish, Sarah Lyons disappeared. And in her place came legends of the Drowned Woman walking the wastes Probably just a Megaton ghost story. But the Capital Wasteland's been silent for a long time. Maybe it's a coincidence. Maybe the Last Elder Lyon's is dead. Or maybe Sarah Lyons did crawl out of that river and finally found her way back home. Fallout 4: Steel Hearts (Man I have way too much time on my hands...)

This video makes me miss the BOS... too bad there is no going back

I wonder how the Lone Wanderer would have taken to such a betrayal, especially since it was hinted that Sarah was interested in him so things could have developed between them. I imagine they might be out there, plotting their vengeance, ready to go full Rambo on their asses when they least expect it.

Maxson has got a lovely coat though

i have to say it's not a hard stretch to say she was killed by anything in the wasteland "fell in combat" could be anything from a group of raiders up to a pack of Deathclaws or it could be she fell down the side of the citadel and broke her neck so the say she "fell in combat" so it looks better

I honestly think that the "brotherhood" in fallout 3 are the real outcasts.

Big question why don't they mention the lone wanderer

Yeah. The collapse of the Lyons Pride was one of the more cynical choices Fallout 4 made. It was a really unfortunate decision on their part because it cheapens and ultimately soils the feeling we are left with at the close of Fallout 3. Any attempts at making the Capital Wasteland a better place are ruined because the Lyons Pride is devastated, Rivet City is gutted for its power supply (it is in those terminals as well) so Maxson can build his damn airship, the Outcasts become the dominant philosophy of the East Coast Brotherhood, and the wasteland is basically handed over to anti-mutant totalitarian bigots. Fallout 4 is a much more cynical game in its direction and I am not certain this was a good choice.

Elder lyons, Sarah lyons, and the lone wanderer were all delicatly removed from the brotherhood's records, considering that it is pretty clear that the lone wanderer would have (canonically) supported her, it likely that he/she was pursuaded to leave, or outright killed, maybe sent on a mission far away. Wish it was possible to have a way for the lone wanderer to contact you with the truth about what happened at least, could just be a letter or terminal entry, so you never have to see them in person. Or see them in full BOS power armor with a distorted voice. Oh well, it will never happen but, BOS DLC may, and if that comes out and does not address the lyons mystery then i will be breaking many things in rage.

sounds like the original brotherhood in the east were actually pretty cool. One of my biggest issues with fallout 4's steel was their lack of concern for the people of the commonwealth

As a Person who liked both the F3 and F4 renditions of the BoS, the former of the "knights of the Apocalypse" thing they had going on, and the latter for the Face-Heel turn they did, I would love for their to be a bit in one of the DLC where you could tell Maxson that his childhood crush was killed by one of his current subordinates, and then just sit back and watch the reaction.

Sarah was by far one of my favorite Fallout characters. Austin, if I can help is any way to find out who really killed her, let me know. We have to make this right.

Just found this- so glad someone else finds this as fishy as I do. 'Fell in battle' my ass- I'm willing to bet that whoever succeeded her as Elder was the one who pulled the trigger. Also, anyone else wonder where the hell all the Lyon's Pride members are in Fallout 4? You can't tell me they're all dead or back in the Capital Wasteland- these are the great soldiers of the Eastern Brotherhood, and you're benching them for the most difficult expansion you've faced in decades? There's a theory in this: the Lyon's Pride and other members loyal to Lyon's and his ideals quietly absconded from the BoS- faked their deaths or something- when Sarah died and they saw how the BoS would dissolve into anarchy with hopping from leader to leader. Maybe Sarah's even with them, I don't know. Where they'd go, I don't know either, but there could still be a number of BoS members somewhere in the East willing to help the people above the collection of technology. Ooh- maybe they went into space with the Lone Wanderer? He's absolutely nonexistent in the Brotherhood's files. Mothership Zeta- think about it.

If Bethesda won't bring her back, I will

austin was later killed in a brotherhood raid on his house...

Watch out Brotherhood, Veteran Rangers with Big Irons are gonna gun you down, and 1st Recon will be the last thing you never see.

I like to assume that Sarah Lyons is still alive, taken to mothership Zeta by the Lone Wanderer and was put to the cryogenic chamber while being healed by Elliott Tercorien (the medic from mothership zeta.) Three Dog joins the lone wanderer afterwards after the brotherhood changed leadership as he believes BoS stopped fighting the good fight. Now the Lone Wanderer and his crew (Sarah, Elliott, Toshiro Kago, Sally, & Three Dog) will reclaim the Brotherhood someday.

My theory is that Sarah was killed by an institute courser or other kind of synth. That would explain Arthurs obsession with wiping them out. Not sure where he got the ghoul hate from though. Maybe he just stared hanging out with the tenpenny residents or something.

BUSH DID SARAH LYONS. Oh wait, that doesn't sound right...

It would be nice if Bethesda decided to bring back Sarah Lyons, granted the story stated a 3 word death, however, the vague attribute gives more room for an interesting surprise. A gamer can wish...

IT WAS A ACCIDENT I SWEAR!

I've heard two conspiracies to this: A: the wanderer fragged the BoS Citadel and killed Sarah. Highly unlikely, given the evidence such as MAXSON STILL BEING ALIVE! Unless... I dunno, he managed to survive an atomic blast. B: The Institute Raided the Citadel. I like this one because it gives the BOS a reason for hating the institute and it deals with Sarah's death. The BoS were never concerned with idiots sequestering technology for their own uses, as they cared very little for what the Think Tank did in the Big MT so long as they kept to themselves. Maxson, in some bizarre hybrid combination of Lyons's and traditional brotherhood morals, DESPISES the institute and all it stands for, to a degree where some people called him Hitler. This would give him reason to, since he did love the Brotherhood (and probably Sarah) and seeing the institute destroy it would turn him into the punisher, basically.

I just about died laughing with that Preston line

What's up with the Skyrim storyteller btw? PS.: Hidden History for you: The death hound found in Castle Volkihar in Skyrim's Dawnguard DLC called Garmr, is a reference to the hound of Hel, who was in norse mythology the ruler of Niflheim which is also known as the Underworld. She is also the daughter of Loki. She is said to have half of her body resemble death (skeleton, rotting flesh etc. the descriptions aren't clear). She could very well be a reference to Serana: Both of their natures are inherently evil, their father is evil and tries to bring about the end-times (Ragnarök/the Sun's death) and they both have a good, kind-hearted side (if we think of Hel outside the Poetic Edda). That's just my theory though. I originally started this comment for the Garmr reference.

yes I've been debating this ever sence I found out about it and I do believe that they killed off the Lyons

Or maybe Bethesda got lazy and needed a reason for her to be gone

I preferred the DC BoS over their traditional and current form.

Maybe she faked her own death? I mean the Lone Wanderer basically disappeared. Maybe they just wanted to live a quiet life somewhere? But it would be awesome if one of the DLC has the Lone Wanderer coming to avenge Sarah. Or maybe Fawkes looking for the LW and hearing about a badass from seemingly nowhere offed a major faction and hoped it was the LW.

I always thought Sarah's death seemed a little too convenient. In my headcanon the LW is just secretly biding his/her time and will eventually open a can of righteous whup-ass on that little snot Arthur.

That would be a cool dlc for Fallout 4. a faction of brotherhood members finds out Sara was assassinated, and it sparks a huge civil war and you need to pick a side the lions loyalists or the the original brotherhood

Theres the Elder that dies From a Poisened Arrow...

I like all your videos Austin, but please drop the sheit jokes, thanks.

one of the early brotherhood elders, some maxon feller, got hit in the face (while not wearing a helmet) with a poisoned arrow, when attacking a camp owned by the vipers. he died by the hand of some junkie raider armed with a bow and arrow.

I thought I was watching game theory for a second. Ah, old shoddycast. Forever in our hearts

Lost it at the Preston part

every time I tried to kill Sarah Lyons she went unconscious and killed me 😞

"Fell in battle" my ass. You know some Maxson sympathizer fragged her

The botherhood never was meant to be charitable. They just wanted to protect people from their own stupidity which is self evident since the bombs dropping. I honestly think they are the true heroes of fallout lore. They may seem extreme but I do not care their goals seem the most noble to me

The offhand comments on the airship about "Think Boston is bad? You should see D.C." mixed with the "poisoned the river" bit from Arturian lore makes me wonder if the BoS pulled a Salt the Earth campaign and undid project purity. That said, having an open secret like that and still bleaching the archives of, what would have to have been, a straight up mutiny doesn't make too much sense.

I'd like the Pride and Sarah to be in a Fallout 4 DLC. I don't buy the death thing

what if sarha Lyons death was like a lone survivor type deal but with no survivors to tell the story

If only Sarah was still in charge, I wouldn't have had to smoke the BOS.

There was a time when General officers fought alongside their troops. Our advances in communication have made that no longer necessary. It wouldn't be that crazy to think she'd be fighting or simply commanding on the front lines since you can't expect their comms to be up all the time in the wasteland. I love the theory. I'm just putting in my own two cents about that part.

Years later, this is still one of my favorite videos.

People who jumped on the fallout 3 bandwagon hate the "new brotherhood" because they dont know the history. HEATHENS!

I might write a fan fiction for this.

I always assume Synth's killed her.

Austin: How many Generals do you know that- Preston: Well- Austin: Shut your mouth Preston...

I almost spit my drink out at the Preston joke. You almost owed me a new monitor. ;)

BETHESDA , DLC THIS !!!

do you actually send all of these letters?

Nuka World is open You walk in, and see shifty characters everywhere. Then, at a table, you see a lone looking character sitting next to a light armored clad blond woman. You ask their names and they go by alias' "The Lyon's" They say they're laying low, and just passing through You walk away, and turn back, they're gone. Pls I wanna see Sarah alive Lone Wanderer too tbh

Bonus fact! There is proof of a side quest where you could overthrow Elder Maxson and become Elder of the BoS. Know the information regarding the changing of an Elder is intense as seen in Fallout NV. So it had to be some pretty serious shit to get Mister Maxson out of power if you know what I mean.

I saw a terminal entry on the Lone Wanderer on some Gunner's terminal on one of their bridge posts. Something about the gunner's operations in the Capitol Wasteland. And it had an entry about the Lone Wanderer, but it didn't say much.. I can't find it again which leads me to believe it's random or has a chance to spawn in a terminal entry. But I'm only guessing at that there's a lot of their posts on bridges.

I hope the minutemen/railroad victory is canon.

You bring reading too much into things to a whole nother level.

I'd like to see more - in discussion form if not in game at some point - something to do with the problem with the Brotherhood of Steel credo, which seems to be "collect all technology to keep it out of the hands of those who would destroy mankind - again. What happens when absolute power corrupts absolutely, and the Brotherhood being the biggest kid on the block makes them the biggest bully. And the fact that concentrated power attracts powerful enemies - like the Institute perhaps? If they win, the next guys will be even stronger, and you have an arms race that starts to look like the Cold War, or the Fallout Universe Americans vs. Chinese

I my first playthrough of Fallout 4 and I got on board the Prydwen, I was all for teaming up with the BoS, Piper didn't like the idea of working with them, so I was a little unsure of where to go, then I found that terminal on board and was like, oh no, Sarah!!! So I was unsure even more, then I found out the Shaun was leader at the Institute, so I thought "Sarah's dead, Piper doesn't like them, my son is at the institute, so I'm going with them. Second I went with the Brotherhood, but I'm still a little unsure.

I think using the tec to help people is very good, i mean fun fact the military might have big future tec but we dont have it yet cause they havent figure out how we can use it

Just stop with the season pass drama. What they are doing is warranted and fair.

Actually Elder Lyons softened up to the common mans struggle after traveling through The Pit (Pittsburgh) because it was so fucking terrible that he ordered everything killed and the untainted children join the brotherhood.

This is why Lyons had to sacrifice herself in my playthrough of FO3. Now I can die happily knowing that the timeline I would have created resulted in less assassinations.

Sarah Never died. she became the owner of Vault 21.

I have thought, ever since I read a comment regarding this topic, that Lyons was killed by a Synth.

Well, wouldn't be surprised. The Maxon name has roots in the Brotherhood.

do I hear another rant coming over the price hike? And I that is why I trusted tinker tom to flying (not the brightest move on my part)

That's too deep... Bethesda doesn't even understand their own shit meanwhile...

Wait, there is one MAJOR thing that Shoddy didn't take into account. The Lone Wanderer, the main fucking character of the game. It is hard for me to believe that the Lone Wanderer would stand aside after Sarah is assumed 'assassinted.' At the same time, it would be hard for me to believe that he'd simply walk away from everything after Adam's Airforce base. It was too bad that Betheseda didn't go into detail about the Lone Wanderer. Even though people made their decisions, they should have assumed people made the humain decisions to drew on that.

Wish they had a fallout 4 dlc where she's alive and you reform the Bos back to Lyons bos. Hate how they turned into an evil faction.

This is why I Red Weddinged the Brotherhood myself. I wiped them out in New Vegas, and then I bombed them to hell in Fallout 3. That's it! NO MORE BOS! Allow me to paint a situation for you. In a saloon located in a neutral town, an NCR Ranger, a Legion Centurion, an Enclave Hellfire Trooper, and a Securitron all walk into the bar. Surely, they'll want to kill each other, right? They have nothing in common. But the one thing you can do to get them all on the same side is to tell them that the Brotherhood of Steel has a nearby base close to the saloon, and the chapter there is at full strength. Then suddenly, all four of them go back home, go get their friends, and go raid that Brotherhood bunker and kill/enslave/capture everyone inside. THAT IS HOW MUCH THE BROTHERHOOD IS HATED. And it's still the same in Fallout 4: The Minutemen don't trust the Brotherhood, while the Railroad and the Institute both hate their guts. Most of their endings involve fucking over the Brotherhood one way or another. Plus, Arthur Maxson became the Elder of the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel.......with the expressed approval of the West Coast Brotherhood of Steel that is traditionalist, xenophobic, and uses bomb collars to enslave people. Here's three different speeches, from three different Fallout faction leaders, all saying why the Brotherhood of Steel should be destroyed. Enclave President John Henry Eden: "The so-called 'Brotherhood of Steel.' Now, don't be fooled by their pseudo-knightly nonsense or supposed connections to the United States Army. These... power-armored boy scouts are nothing more than common criminals with access to some antiquated technology. Criminals, who have had the audacity to claim this country's most important military installation, the Pentagon, as their own personal clubhouse! And don't be fooled, America. Those who have left the Brotherhood of Steel, branded Outcasts, are just as dangerous; even more so, being in exile." Caesar: “The worst impulses of mankind, concentrated in one insane, backward tribe. The Brotherhood seems to have formed not long after the great atomic war. It's hard to know - they care little for history. Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further East didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxson. They like to pretty up their mission with trappings of chivalry, but the truth is they're hoarders. They hoard technology. It's been 200 years, and they still have the mentality of scavengers. They say they're preserving these technologies, but for what? They have no vision. They offer no future. They're a dead end.” Robert House: “They're a terrorist group, basically. Militant, quasi-religious fanatics obsessed with hoarding Pre-War technology. Not all technology, mind you. You don't see them raiding hospitals to cart away Auto-Docs or armfuls of prosthetic organs. No, they greatly prefer the sort of technology that puts people in hospitals. Or graves, rather, since hospitals went the way of the Dodo. We're talking about a coterie of bulging-eyed fanatics who think all Pre-War technology belongs to them. They're ridiculous! They galavant around the Mojave pretending to be Knights of Yore. Or did, until the NCR showed them that ideological purity and shiny power armor don't count for much when you're outnumbered 15:1. The world has no use for emotionally unstable techno-fetishists. Just wipe them out, will you!?” When three different factions, each with differing views on how to revive society, all agree on why the Brotherhood should be wiped out, that leaves little to interpretation, now does it? I can make a case for why the Lyons' Brotherhood is justified in its existence as it is the closest to a police force that the Capital Wasteland has, but when they turned back into the West Coast Brotherhood with an elder who has the approval of the West Coast Elders, that pretty much goes to prove why the Brotherhood cannot be trusted. The Enclave and the NCR want to restore America. Caesar wants to build a fascist dictatorship. Robert House of New Vegas wants an economic free zone that can revive the high-technology development sectors and reinvigorate space travel. Yet they all agree that the Brotherhood has to go. And every other faction in Fallout 4, from the Minutemen, the Railroad, and the Institute, will agree with Eden, Caesar, and House that the Brotherhood needs to be eliminated. Add that to the fact that they betrayed the New California Republic because the NCR wanted to use tech to revive society and the Brotherhood of Steel tried to stop them, and we've got more than several reasons to wipe them down to the last man. The last President of the United States hates them, the dictator trying to bring peace to the land forcibly hates them, the world's greatest technological genius hates them, and a bunch of Californians cosplaying as Americans hate them too. Along with every faction in the Boston Commonwealth. So unless I'm recruiting them for a war, or using them for trade, then I'm wiping them out, down to the last man. Humanity cannot afford having a bunch of knightly-wannabes trying to stop progress and technological enhancement for the populace.

Like every Fire Emblem game ever where the King(and or prince) fight with his(and or her) army.

Love this video. I'm actually hoping that we'll get to go back and see Maxson's DC in an expansion before this is all over. I do have serious suspicions about some of the more Outcast-centric members scheming to have Sarah killed. I'm also pretty sure Maxson wasn't in on it and has no knowledge of it either. He was raised by Owen and loved Sarah so I just can't see him condoning the brotherhood having her killed, hell I could honestly see him cleaning house if he ever did learn that she was betrayed. He's a very authoritarian leader and he has some VERY cold views when it comes to synths and other things that came from technology but he's also a man of his word. Paladin Danse tells you this and Arthur himself even tells you this, and he lives up to that by not having Danse killed and still keeping you in his inner circle after that fact. I think it would be so cool to go back to DC in a Shivering Isles style expansion and get to dive into this. There's also the fact that Zimmer is still out there so we'd have stuff to do for the other factions as well. Then, they say that she fell in battle, but what if they didn't finish the job? What if she's still alive and in hiding? That would be another incredible thing to get to see.

well... there are cases of BoS leader died in combat, like that son of Roger Maxson who died from a freaking poison dart from The Viper.

Lyons was a paladin when they left and was promoted to elder upon the death of the groups original elder

I wish Sarah was Elder in Fallout 4. And Maxson could have been Sentinel.

And now it's reversed from fallout 3: The remnants of Lyons-loyal members became the outcasts and Maxson, with the BoS outcasts, returned to their true mission

Guess somebody did mention this before but I saw Sarah just recently in the movie Edge of tomorrow - well, it's just a wish, but I imagine her coming around the corner at any time. Who knows ... she could still be alive. The entry is just that. An entry and no proof.

General. I think we should just ignore the Brotherhood of steel. Let them be their little isolationist racists on an island in the ocean.

It would h a surprise if Sarah appeared in a Fallout 4 DLC where she explains she was expelled or faked her death.