Did the early Church pray to the Saints? 

(305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14) (306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4)

There is no " pray to dead Saints " in the Bible only " Pray for each other ". Not to the dead ones.

@@noj72lao-fr1oh Saints are not dead if you believe salvation is possible and Christ won over death.

@@jazzpote4316 Blasphemy if there is a living Saint even a human Pope of the Vatican can not be HOLY as Lord Jesus Christ.

Come to the Roman Catholic Church! You'll be filled with such grace you can't imagine!!! ❤

AMEN!!!

Thank you for your detailed response. I think the answer to the question of whether or not the invocation of the saints to request intercession is permitted or not depends upon whether or not God has opened up a channel of communication with the saints in Heaven through the communion in the body of Christ, which transcends death. Such communication is forbidden in the Old Covenant because God did not establish any such channels of communication with the dead, so attempting to speak to them was disobedient to God's designs and would have either been superstitious or taken recourse to demonic power. If, in the new covenant, there is a means of relaying a request to a saint in Heaven which was licitly established by God (by virtue of the communion we share in Christ) than there is no moral impediment to relaying requests for intercession since requesting the intercession of others is always approved. The purpose of the principles at the beginning of this video are to show that if asking for the intercession of a person on earth is not idolatrous, then there is nothing essentially different about asking for the intercession of a soul in heaven. The only difference is whether or not it is a part of God's plan that we relay requests to the souls in Heaven. It would be idolatrous if we relayed such requests based on the assumption that saints in Heaven were omniscient and could hear even our inward thoughts. We do not believe this - we believe that they can receive such requests only if God wills it, and only because we share a communion with them in Christ's mystical body which transcends the grave.

@@historiaecclesiastica thanks for answering my comment. I understand your opinion, and it's true that if God would allowed a communication between the church in earth and the church heaven that wouldn't be sinful. Of course I disagree that happened just by knowing we cannot hear the saints, so they don't have a way to communicate to us, so it's even more clear we neither have one way (given by God) to communicate us. And also if it's a so essential doctrine Jesus and the apostles will at least mention it (considering it was a sin in old testament). And I'm really glad to hear that you affirm that saints in heaven are not omniscient and cannot know our thoughts, sadly in Catholics laity (maybe by ignorance) saints are treated close to God, especially Virgin Mary, and there's quite other things that are unthinkable for even orthodoxs as I mentioned before. The thing is that I've never seen any bishop, nor priest or any catholic who correct those people who believe such things. The only one I saw once was a priest in Mexico who was invited to TV and he said that saints don't do miracles for us, but they ask GOD to do miracles for us, and believe me all people in there and all people in streets who they asked says the same "that's not what we've taught, we always believed saints are miraculous and we have to ask directly to them". Furthermore, perhaps if Catholics treated saints as they treat men on earth there would be no problem. When we go and ask a pastor or priest for intercession, we go and ask him, but if we were like some modern sects that have pseudo prophets and apostles and people go and ask for a miracle treating that person as a pseudo divinity, then that intercession, no matter how earthly and to a living person it is requested, IS idolatry. The same with the saints, if there were no sin in invoking the saints there is still the question of idolatry, it would have to be taught that you can not go to a saint as if he were a divinity, but as our brothers. The same with images, in Protestantism there are many churches that use icons like the Angelicans and Lutherans, but we do not use them as an object of worship. Like a picture of a relative if we have it is not a sin, but if we try to communicate with the deceased through it, or worse still we treat him as transcendental and pseudo divine, thinking that he knows everything, that he can do any miracle for us, and worse still we must present him some kind of offer in exchange for him to fulfill our wish, then we fall into idolatry, whether with the living or the dead, besides the invocation there is idolatry. Thank you very much again for your response, and I truly believe that we could reach an agreement in the future, at least when catholic teach the supposedly Catholics who do idolatries saints, and not seems like "no one could adore ever a saints because they're saints", everyone in earth and in heaven could be used as an object of cult and idolatry if the people sins in that way, even with Moses and the apostles.

With this: 1 Timothy 5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

@@theodosios2615yes there is one mediator, but everyone in the body of Christ is an intercessor. We don’t cease to be intercessors or apart of the body of Christ once we die.

@@theodosios2615 This video gives multiple verses from both the Old & New Testaments to support veneration of Saints. You use one verse and completely ignore multiple verses that challenge your beliefs. The Catholic Faith is rooted in ancient Christianity. It requires a lot more than a cherry picked verse to understand it.

@@gabepeterson4420 Honoring Saints is one thing. But when you're praying to them, you're worshipping. There isn't a single instance in the scriptures where prayer isn't an act of worship.

@@theodosios2615 In Old English we did not have so much of a difficulty here. One could say to another, “Pray tell…” or, “I pray thee my lord…” In fact, the King James Bible gives us many examples of the term “prayer” being used analogous to the way Catholics use it when we “pray” to saints. With a touch of Old English, when Bathsheba makes a request of King Solomon in I Kings 2:20, the KJV has her say: “I pray thee, say me not nay.” There was never a question here of whether the King James Bible was presenting Bathsheba as adoring her son as God, or praying to him in a way that is forbidden. It was not. Nor are Catholics when we pray to saints. We certainly honor them when we pray to them. In other words, we do not talk to them like we talk to the boys at the local bar and grill. We show great respect and reverence for them. But we do not adore them as we adore God alone. And we also petition them for their prayers because Scripture makes very clear that we need each other as members of the body of Christ (see I Cor. 12:12-27

16 The first came before him, saying, 'Lord, your pound has made ten pounds more.' 17 And he said to him, 'Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very little, you shall have authority over ten cities.' Luke 19:16-17 This here is training for when we are there, lol

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Do you think Mother Mary and the Saints, Martyrs, and Apostles stop praying for us just because they pass away on Earth? Or do you believe John 3 16 when it says they shall have everlasting life?

@@carlomagno3951 give me one example of anyone after Jesus making prayers in the bible to John the Baptist.

@@tftwstf5 why is that a necessity? Do you deny that John the Baptist is part of the body of Christ?

@@carlomagno3951 pfff why is that necessary. It's necessary because this whole video is claiming to have proof to pray to other than the God who "Jesus" prayed to. But you are all liars. And polytheists. And you have zero proof except your own desires for praying the way you do.

(382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) (250 A.D.) “Sub Tuum Prayer: Beneath thy compassion, We take refuge, O Theotokos [God-bearer]: do not despise our petitions in time of trouble: but rescue us from dangers, only pure one, only blessed one.” (305 A.D.) Methodius: “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, we PRAY thee.” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14) (306-373 A.D.) St. Ephram: “Majestic and Heavenly Maid, Lady, Queen.” (Ad Caeli Reginam 10) (382 A.D.) Latin Vulgate: “I am the mother of fair love, way, truth, life, virtue.” (Sirach a.k.a. Ecclesiasticus 24:24-25) One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!

St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) He did NOT say pray to only living Saints! You did! EXAMPLES OF PRAYING TO DEAD SAINTS! All saints in Heaven can hear us, God is the God of the living! Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16), Angels & Saints in Heaven MEDIATE (intercede) prayers for saints on Earth! (CCC 946-975) (Revelation 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:4) “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” then says, One mediator Christ, (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), St. Paul: “Pray for all Saints.” (Ephesians 6:18) “Pray for us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:1) “Pray one for another.” (James 5:16) Includes Mary, a Saint? YES!

@MUSIC-MARY Not with to a Dead Saint.Did they pray to Moises, Abraham or OT Saints totally Not.They were told to pray for each other not pray to Peter, Paul, Mary.

@tftwstf5 Revelation 8 reveals intercessory prayers on behalf of people who ask for their prayers. God bless.

Jesus did NOT say that, you did! I will listen to Jesus!

@@MUSIC-MARY Remember, Being "The Body of, Christ", we are always concerned for others, even after death prayers never stop.

One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),

Its because he was abandoned by God. “The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.” "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy?" He had to go through different rites to speak to Samuel, necromancy (black magic)

Protestants cherry pick what you think is symbolic or not! That is NOT authentic but opinionated!

thats your prideful nature, thinking that you are closer to God than canonized saints

@@SoldadoCatolico You think can presume what's in my mind by telling me what i think, based on me stating a fact? Who do you think you're as good as by judging me? hmm? There is only one judge. No I don't think I'm closer to God than the Saints or anyone for that matter. You find in scripture where there is that example and show me.

St. Ignatius an apostle of St. John: (107 A.D.) “Where there is Jesus Christ there is the CATHOLIC church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:2) (110 A.D.) “Repent and return into the unity of the church, follows a SCHISM he shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.” (Avoid Schismatics 3:2, 3:3, 4:1, 4) (412 A.D.) St. Augustine: “Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church the wrath of God rests upon him.” (Letters 141:5) (253 A.D.) Bishop Cyprian: “Throne of Peter, the chief church, the Romans.” (Epistle 54:14) “One Church, one chair… another altar cannot be set up, nor a new priesthood… whoever gathers elsewhere scatters.” (Letters 43[40]:5) “He that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” (Mathew 12:30) “Serpent (Satan) invented heresies and schisms he might corrupt the truth.” (De Catholicae Ecclesiae Unitate 1, 3-4) (e.g., orthodox, protestants etc.,)

how so? Just interested to hear

Thank you for your thoughts. What would you say are the distinctions between Chalcedonian Christology and the beliefs you articulated? What would be your perspective of Chalcedonian Christology? I have heard oriental orthodox theologians use the terminology of 'blended' natures before, which is why I used this term. I'm interested to read more on the terminology you used.

There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and [h]fared sumptuously every day. 20But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21desiring to be fed with [i]the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ 27“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead

Neither death nor life can separate us from the blood of Jesus Christ

One mediator Christ, then says “Prayers, INTERCESSIONS made for all men.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2, 5), People MEDIATE for others: Mary for people in Cana (CCC 2674) (John 2:5), Peter for dead Tabitha (Acts 9:36-42), Paul for dead Onesiphorus (2 Timothy 1:16-18) Moses for Israelites (Exodus 32:30-35), Abraham for Sodom (Genesis 18:22-32), Moses & Samuel in Heaven for Jeremiah on Earth (Jeremiah 15:1), Saul in Heaven for Samuel on Earth (1 Samuel 28:15-26), Priest prays to Jeremiah in Heaven & Jeremiah Apparition (2 Maccabees 15:12-16),

The tranfiguation, Jesus talked to two dead people! some Protestants dont study the Bible!

@@junglequeen7386 Idolatry surely will. Hebrew 10:26-27. Believers follows the word of God not the interpretation of man, priest, or elders.

(30-33 A.D.) Jesus Did NOT tell his Disciples to WRITE a NEW TESTAMENT, he gives them the CHURCH, the AUTHORITY & the HOLY GHOST (Mt. 18:17, 28:19) (Jn. 20:22-23) & says Jesus gives ONLY Peter the KEYS 2 Heaven, which suggests Peter is in CHARGE (Mt. 16:19) (Acts 1:15) YOU MUST BE UNITED WITH HIS BODY (the CHURCH) NOT a BOOK! “All salvation comes from Christ the HEAD through the CHURCH his BODY.” (CCC 846-848) (Colossians 1:18) The head is united with the body, must abide in his body (the Church) or be “Cast into the fire.” (John 15:6) (1522 A.D.) Martin Luther: “Christ wrote NOT His teaching and gave no command to write it.” Weimarer Ausgabe (WA) (W.A., 10, pp. 625-28) Not everything Jesus did is in Bible! (John 21:25) (2 Thessalonians 2:15) ORAL tradition, “Teach” what he heard from Paul (2 Timothy 2:2, 3:14-17)

(189 A.D.) St. Irenaeus: “Apostles [Peter and Paul] founded the church [of Rome]… succession… Linus the office of the episcopate (office of a Bishop)... Clement the bishopric.” (Against Heresies, Book III, Chapter 3:2-4) (Acts 1:20) 3.) Apostles pass authority by laying on hands to the Bishops (CCC 552, 857-863, 1536-1588) (Acts 1:21-26, 6:3-6, 9:6, 8:14-19, 13:2-3, 14:23, 15:6, 23) (Mathew 10:1-8, 16:18, 28:19-20) (John 21:17) (1 Peter 5:2) (Ephesians 4:11) (1 Timothy 3:1, 3:8-9, 4:14-16, 5:17-19, 22) (107 A.D.) St. Ignatius: “Let no man do anything connected with the church without the Bishop.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8:1) Bishop English word from Greek Episkopoi, Priest English word from Latin Presbyter, Bishop a.k.a. Páppas (Koine Greek) Pope (English)! (Philippians 1:1) (1 Timothy 4:14) (Apostolic succession - Wikipedia) (Pope - Wikipedia) "Where in the New Testament are "Priests" Mentioned?" (Catholic Answers)

Thank you for your interest in this channel as you've left a good deal of comments over the past 24 hours. This video addresses the logical consistency of asking the intercession of saints in heaven by outlining a number of principles. It is necessary to address this issue using principles rather than relying entirely on source texts because neither the apostles, nor the early Church fathers, directly addressed the topic of asking saints in heaven for their intercession. The apparent silence in the literary record is not an indication that it was not a practice. Christian practices which were not challenged or opposed would not have warranted the resources necessary to receive systematic explanation in a written document during this time period in which writing, copying, and promulgating documents was difficult and expensive. To summarize, these are the principles outlined in this video: 1. God clearly loves to answer prayers through the intercession of intermediaries, even while it is clearly possible that he could answer prayers directly instead. 2. God answers prayers through the intercession of those dwelling in heaven, not only those dwelling on earth. 3. Since we have communion with the saints in heaven through the one body of Christ and the one Holy Spirit, we have the ability to "commun"icate with the saints in heaven to ask their intercession. Once again, we have established that Scripture encourages asking for the intercession of others, rather than forbids it. Therefore, if it is spiritually licit and possible to ask the saints in heaven for their intercession, it is entirely reasonable and in fact encouraged that we do so. The tradition of all Christian churches older than the 16th century teach that it is possible to communicate with those who are united to Christ even in heaven by virtue of the unity we share with these souls in Christ. While not addressed directly in any 1st-2nd Church document I could find, the devotion to the burial places of the martyrs and the turning of these burial places into shrines is an indication that early Christians frequented these places to ask the intercession of the greatest witnesses of the early Church. The practice of necromancy practiced by Saul is not analogous to asking for the intercession of a saint. Saul attempted to speak to Samuel through the use of a witch, utilizing demonic power which God did not licitly sanction. The Christian who asks for the intercession of a saint believes that the only line of communication which allows him to "commune" with a saint in Heaven is the body of Christ which they share spiritual membership within. This communication, then, is not necromancy - it is, rather, a channel of communion opened up by the baptism which unites the Christian on earth and the saints in heaven.

@@historiaecclesiastica - We are warned against "going beyond that which is written". It's called "transgression", in the scriptures. In other words, if it's not covered in the apostles' teaching then it's out-of-scope. We have this doctrine in contract law. To read into any contract, which has been ratified, is forbidden in a court of law. The Covenants of God are no exception. 2 John 9 - Whosoever transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God... Furthermore, your observation about Saul and the Witch of Endor sounds like you're shooting from the hip. If communication with the dead was as you teach then a simple prayer to Samuel should have sufficed. Instead, Saul violated the Law by having Samuel conjured up. Since we have no such teaching or examples from New Testament scripture, we need to reverence the silence and not transgress it. The silence of the scriptures is authoritative - as it is in every legal contract. The New Covenant is the Contract under which we now live. Catholicism needs this particular door wedged open because it allows a flood of other false doctrine into the kingdom. Prayers to the dead gives opening to the worship of Mary. The agenda of the Roman religion is on full display. Isis and Asherah must be worshiped in this religion. Patron gods are replaced by patron saints. It's the religion of the Empire with a new suit of clothes - a Christian sounding veneer. Don't look too closely, though, because you'll see that it's only make believe. Christian doctrine respects the word of God.

@@GizmoFromPizmo The apostles and the Holy Spirit never intended to compose a comprehensive theology text. The epistles of the New Testament responded to particular issues as they arose. The rest of the deposit of their teachings are contained in sacred oral tradition, which is passed on from the apostles to the next generations of Christians, but not written down by the apostles. You are proposing a limited concept of Solo Scriptura which forbids believing anything that is not explicitly in Scripture. Scripture itself does not explicitly support this view. Your reference of not going beyond what was written is from 2 Cor 4:6, but in this context, St. Paul was urging the Corinthians not to become puffed up with pride by breaking into factions based on what apostle's "school of thought" one identified with the most. He said "Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other." He was not forbidding Christians from believing any teachings which were not explicitly written in Scripture. In fact, St. Paul commands Christians to assent to doctrines which are taught only orally by the Apostolic tradition although perhaps not in Scripture: 2 Thess 2:15: So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter. Believing that Scripture is the only means by which God transmitted Divine teaching is a medieval innovation which no ancient Church believed/believes.

@@historiaecclesiastica - Tradition that conflicts with scripture is prohibited by the King: Mt. 15:3 - But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? There is nothing wrong with tradition as long as it respects the word of God. For example: if the eldership of one congregations wants to call a fast or observe a special time then that is a tradition that is observed by that congregation. Notice that no tradition of one eldership may be imposed on another. This eliminates the kind of of chaos we see in the second century (and later) church. By then, the clergy had seized control and now one congregation is exercising authority over another. We see this on display in the epistle of First Clement. He was engaging in ecclesiastical overreach. The elders of a congregation have authority over ONLY their congregation. There is no authority for an eldership exercising authority over multiple congregations. Think about that for a moment. Where would the Empire's religion be without ecclesiastical overreach? The clergy would crumble to dust. Their power over the laity would be short circuited and only the authority of the word of God would be permitted to rule. To me, that sounds wonderful. The elderships of local congregations had to be overthrown in order for Rome to take over (Actually the overthrow had taken place well before Rome took over. The clergy seized power over the laity which is HOW Rome was able to seize control so easily. One church bossing around another was the order of the day back then. There is no authority for that behavior in the New Testament.) The silence of the scriptures is our guardrail against error and apostasy. The silence is authoritative in every contract. I was a Union leader in a former lifetime. I understood what the Contract with the Company said and what it didn't say. If we took a "grievance" to arbitration, the arbitrator would rule on the worthiness of the grievance based on the Contract specified and not on what it didn't say. That's how contract law works. If the silence of a contract was a free-for-all then you wind up with theologies like we see in the Book of Enoch, where all manner of theology is spun out of the silence of the Law. Without respecting the silence of the contract, we open the door wide to chaos. And, if you think about it, that's exactly what Rome wants, isn't it? I mean, if you can knock out the underpinnings of the Contract then anything goes. Any theology is acceptable as long as the people in power give it the nod, right? The agenda of the clergy is SO transparent when you look at it that way. The only solution is to slam the door shut against the tyranny of the clergy and adhere only to "thus saith the Lord". Tradition is fine, as long as it doesn't violate the scriptures. That's what the King said. And the Apostle Paul's mentioning of his tradition only reinforces the King's proclamation. The apostle's teaching is scripture. (See 2 Pet. 3:16)

@@historiaecclesiastica - And before I eave the subject, your scripture reference was off by one. It's First Corinthians 4:6 (not Second). Typos notwithstanding, the lesson of the apostle is clear. 1 Cor. 4:6 - And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. Can't you see that when you prefer a competing theology over "thus saith the Lord" that you're doing exactly what the apostle warned us NOT to do. That which is written is for our edification. Those who are preaching another gospel are doing the exact opposite. But speaking of Second Corinthians 4, check this out: 2 Cor. 4:2 - But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. Catholicism has authorized reading into the scriptures whatever doctrine is convenient. I mean, there is nothing about the context of Matthew 16:18 that justifies or authorizes "Apostolic Succession" but guess what is trotted out EVERY TIME that doctrine is challenged? That is a preference of a man (or some men) over the word of God. That is going beyond what is written. Notice that the above mathematics is what is being used to filter out man made error. It is a discipline on our doctrine. It is a guardrail to prevent the shipwreck of our faith.

Weeehooo Just found myself a debate. Lets do this!!! Ok brother, you are correct that we cannot pray to dead people. If we were supposed to do that it would be "necromancy". Its unbiblical and the Lord Jesus detests such things. *There is one mediator between God and Man, the Lord Jesus Christ* If we pray we ought to pray to Jesus, for he is the one that became a bridge between God and Man. > " Why didmt jesus ask adam or enoch or moses to go to God and ask Him to remove this cup from him?" Yes! Why would he. He asked his Father in heaven. The one who sent him! For he came to do his _Father's will_ Jesus Christ on the other Hand is Son of The Most High God (Father). He is himself God. According to Old and New testament. So when we pray we plead the Son so that we be forgiven and he reconciles us back to his Father. The Holy Spritit (Ruach Ha'Kodesh) is the Spirit of God that works on the ones that have put their faith in Christ. He is the one that corrects us from our mistakes and convicts us of our sins. God is 3 in One (Triune God) He was like this from the beginning. It isn't made up starting from the New Testament. It was just more brought to attention. God Bless your discernment and I pray you find the truth. i.e The Lord Yeshua The Almighty

@@SkySentry7 there actually no biblical evidence to pray to Jesus.

@@SkySentry7 which isn't even his name.

@@SkySentry7 even more so why I'm the world would I pray to Jesus when I can pray to his God. As well the imaginary equality of the trinity is made up indeed. Jesus and the spirit, are both commanded and obey and serve the most High. Neither of them are equal to each other nor are they equal to the Father God. So why would I pray to someone who will, according to the bible, be subjected to the day of judgment? Jesus, the son, according to the new testament will be subjected to the day of judgment. Why would I pray to Jesus.

@@SkySentry7 Jesus as you call him was the mediator ON EARTH.

Lies, you speak lies

The purpose of the first section is to establish that God wills us to intercede for one another in prayer and does not demand that we turn only to him directly. The second section establishes that there is no logical reason that God doesn't will for souls in Heaven, united to us on earth by Christ, to continue the ministry of intercessory prayer. The final section demonstrates beyond doubt that the Church fathers believed in placing petitions at the feet of the saints in Heaven.

Salve Maria! Muslim, how is your good works pleasing before God without the shed Blood of Christ? What made you think that your sacrifice is better than Cane's?

My repentance is accepted by the same as the son who ran away and came back, and was accepted by his father with a loving embrace. You may think we don't have a direct line to God. But that's incorrect. We worship God and pray and do as best we can. And in our faults we repent and ask forgiveness. And it is given to us. And anyone who asks with a true spirit.

@@historiaecclesiastica but you gave zero example of God teaching us to pray to the ones who have passed on. The only example you gave were that of intermediaries on earth. And even us Muslims we have the same understanding as the biblical one. The righteous ON earth can pray for you upon your requests. But you aren't allowed to superimpose that specific understanding upon those that are all waiting for the day of judgment.. If you truly want the intercession of Mary and the saints. Then the correct way to get it would be pray to God for him to bless them. And in turn in God will he will bless them by way of your prayers. And it will produce their intersession. But their is no proof they are in heaven now speaking to the Father

No, He doesn’t

Lev 19:31 prohibits mediums and going to spiritists. Which in turn prohibits is from doing the same actions as them. Seeking out help through spirits. And Matthew 6:6 tells us how to pray and who to pray to. If you are forgetting that God destroyed people and his own people for worshipping other than Him. He names Himself a jealous God. So how do you think God takes it when you call on Mary ? Or Thomas or Andrew? Is it righteous to call on men or women for help, when they are faulty just as you an I are? No. It is not righteous. You disobey and disrespect Christ every time you call you anyone but who he said to pray to. And it will indeed lead you to the hell fire..

@@tftwstf5 lev 19:31 prohibits us from going to demonically possessed mediums and spiritists to speak to those that have passed from this life to the next, period. It doesn’t however keep us from speaking to those alive in Christ through Christ. As for Jesus’s teaching on prayer in Matt. 12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. John 16:12-13 He’s pretty clear He didn’t give us everything Himself.

@@frekigeri4317 the spirit of truth would never give something contradictory to the pillars of the teachings of God. I understand that the meaning is going to people who call on spirits. And the dead. And you guys all go and learn from your church father's to call on others besides God for help. You are mimicking their practices in the name of Jesus. There is no instructions in the bible or from Paul. Or ANYONE. INSTRUCTING us to call on holy o es who have passed. You know that's the truth. Every one who reads the bible knows this. But you guys superimpose verses of holy ones intersession while their are alone on earth. We even have that in the Quran. But we know by way on the consistency of the prophet and all of the messengers, that they instructed us to call on only God.

@@tftwstf5 the spirit of Truth hasn’t given anything contradictory to scripture. In Hebrew there’s two words translated into English as create. One is to create something from something and the other is to create something from nothing, God does both but something from nothing is only Gods ability. A demon only has powers that it has corrupted, powers it has received from God, which is the source of all these powers. Your claim is that prayer to Saints is superficially unique but fundamentally the same to using a demonically possessed person to communicate with dead but I would say they are superficially the same and fundamentally different as the source of the power comes through Christ directly and the demonically possessed person draws their power through a fallen angel and thus indirectly from God. One way is forbidden the other is not.