I'd suggest making a video on the difference in driving characteristics between a 1.5 way and 2 way diff. Including the differences in how that effects your ability to turn (fwd AND rwd). Seen more than a few guys pissed at their car because they made bad diff decisions and can't make it through a turn, haha
Front wheel drive tip: If you're trying to get up a snowy hill and having trouble going up forwards, try reversing up the hill instead (if conditions allow, ie not on a busy public road). By doing so, as you begin to accelerate up the hill, you shift the cars weight onto the front drive axle. Also reverse gear is often the lowest gear ratio available in an unmodified car. This has worked for me many times trying to make it up steep snowy driveways.
Exactly how I got out of a tricky situation seeing some friends who live on the bottom end of crescent. Had to get car dug out first, then turned car round and reversed up the hill no problem, where other cars had struggled to get up the hill, which was about 1in3 and about 400m to top of hill.
A good idea. But not a bright idea. When you're climbing a offroad obstacle. You want to be stable and being able to drive safely. It's all about the tires that makes a big difference in offroading. All terrain tires, Ok. Mud tires, strongly recommend...
My 2000 Jetta VR6 had the fuel cut traction control. Stalled out getting out of some loose gravel, and as soon as I killed traction I made it out no problem.
On a square left or right you’re able to carry more speed with the scandinavian flick. But on a sharper corner like lets say a hairpin, the handbrake gives you a smaller turning radius, which makes it perfect while a scandinavian flick will give you understeer most likely.
Great video! Thanks for this excellent refresh on what people should know about their cars. I live in Canada because of our rugged weather, I sincerely think that all car should come with a limited slip differential either for front wheel drive or rear wheel drive cars. Open diff or traction control is for moderate weather and it is inadequate for what we have here. I think car companies should make the effort standardize limited slip differential on all models coming in Canada. Keep up the great work!
@@Teamoneilrally most probably not. Traction control has a temperature estimation. If estimated brake disc temperature goes above limit it shuts down brake action. At least all the system do this I worked on.
@@K0nst4nt1n96 regarding brake temeratures which is the subject no. There is no problem with power cut. In genral it can be a problem but it is a more complicated issue. You can buy many cars with switchable traction control.
I've always been interested in cars but never deep enough to know how all the parts of them work. These videos are extremely interesting and informative, definitely gonna be binging these
Got here via googling to see if there is any chance that I could understand what Chase Elliot was telling Junior about why his driving style doesn't work with the Next Gen car. Suspected that it would be over my head. I was right. This fellow is crazy smart and incredibly knowledgeable. Suggesting the RU-vid animations is fabulous but my head already hurts too much and I don't like having my shortcomings pointed out so clearly. 🙂 Great demo and explanations.
My ST is at the dealer now to get my Quaife installed. I hear the LSD improve braking as it evens out the slipping between the wheels, not to mention cornering. Hopefully it is worth it.
@@Teamoneilrally Just got the car back. Have only driven it a bit on the street so far but it seems like it was worth it. The car tracks dead center on acceleration. It feels like the steering wants to pull to the center while driving down the road, and you can feel it pull to the inside on corners also. Definitely a lot more grip. My main concern was a sketchy feeling on hard acceleration all the way up to 4th gear, especially on a back road with a bad surface and wheel spin on wet roads.
Re: Differentials and Traction Control Explained I would love to see/hear more in-depth info/analysis on differentials. Especially visualization demo on full-on pro rally diffs and utilization. Very cool stuff. Thank you!
Great vid! I have a Cherokee Trailhawk on my channel which has the locking rear diff. Also if you turn off TC it will still activate the brakes to act as limited slip.
i put a trackloc in my rear (extra clutch pack), and an Eaton Elocker in the front. best upgrade ever! (also installed solid axle shafts instead of the Central Axle Disconnect)
great video. i had an 98 grand cherokee 5.9 (with the 249 transfer case replaced with a 242) that was essentially right wheel drive. it almost never spun the left wheels, very rarely the rear it would. no traction control at all. every time it snowed i would be crabbing down the street at an angle. i currently have an 03 bmw 325 XI which is nearly the exact same 4wd system, with its mechanical new venture transfer case and all, but the bmw has traction control that applies brakes. that works very well and will get all 4 wheels going when necessary, but its very true about losing momentum. i have on slight occasion had to turn off traction control to get a couple of wheels spinning better to get me up a hill or something.
about FWD cars at 1:51 with Traction control that cuts throttle, i believe the 10 and 10.5 gen Corollas 2009-2013 have this, and possibly 11th gen Corollas as well 2014-2017, they are rally-able as well and quite fun in the snow/ice! :)
Should have shown a WK GC with QDII 3x ELSDs.. probably the best real 4x4 system a production vehicle has ever had. Great video as always! Keep em coming.
Did a land rover experience the other day, one thing i can say is traction control, haldex and a £60k optioned out basic car is phenomenally capable when you want to drive on just 2 wheels! Took a little while to comprehend the 'give it more accelerator' of the guide!
I am always impressed when a locked/welded rear end, Toyota 22RE, in 2 wheel, bouncing off rev limiter, goes more places and most other trucks in 4-wheel.. on half bald street tires!
Absolutely AWD-some. Thanks for a well-spoken and clearly shown demonstration. My old '03 AWD Highlander has a great AWD system for roads - never gets sideways, but it's craptastic for off-roading. :-(
My 2wd tacoma has what I think is a nice mix of systems. During regular driving with the traction control on, its a system where it cuts power when the rear spins. If you press the trac off button, it turns the power cutting off and has the brake actuated rear lsd (Auto LSD on the dash). If you hold the button for 5 more seconds it turns all of these off and it doesn't touch the brakes
Pretty sure the 13 honda fits traction control worked by cutting throttle. It was a pita with the manual if you didn't just power through it the car tended to stall when trying to start out on snow/ice. These vids are great, thanks!
I would love to the RS hooked up. I have one and I'd be curious to see how the different drive modes effect it if they do at all. If i remember correctly the awd system overdrives the rear wheels faster than the fronts so that could be interesting but I think it's only slight so you probably wouldn't be able to see it from just looking. My guess is with the 2016-17 RS which has brake based torque vectoring up front you would spin all 4 wheels with the fronts kinda twitching like the 3rd fiesta with both rear wheels spinning the same speed but possibly different based on traction levels and the 2018 RS with a quaife diff spinning all the tires the same as the 16/17 but without the twitchyness.
thanks for the vid! there are a lot of good information here. example i always thought that the open diff tends to spin one side of the wheel because the weight is not equal in the car, now i know the other reasons and good to learn is better to off traction control when going uphill i snow
Video idea: Is it worth upgrading an open diff to an lsd for a fwd or rwd car, if the vehicle is driven in winter conditions? In a fwd open diff vehicle, can some of the torque applied to the slipping wheel be sent to the other wheel by lightly pressing the brake?
That would be an interesting one, basically can you manually do what the traction control does? My hypothesis is that applying the brakes would slow the spinning wheel but not enough to get the wheel with too much grip going. Now somebody needs to test this.
You can definitely left foot brake to correct for wheelspin and force an open diff to transfer power more evenly. Basically you're deleting the "path of least resistance" by applying fairly equal resistance to both tires. With a FWD just remember the brakes are also applied to the rear wheels as well, they'll be dragging a little so it's a 2 steps forward one step back thing again. In a 4WD with open diffs front and rear this can be VERY useful off road BUT when you do it too often / aggressively you'll end up breaking some teeth off the spider gears in the diff... Or a U-Joint... Or shear an axle shaft... Or the ring and pinion...
In any two wheel drive car with an open dif, once you start spinning on snow instead of giving pure throttle and to to squeeze it all out of 1 tire, wouldn't applying left foot braking and becoming your own traction control be more efficient? Plus being an added bonus of not having a computer tell you how to drive, and making an open differential spin both tires. I would also love to see more modern cars hooked to the jeep like you talked about at the end of the video. Hope I can come see you guys soon!!
Absolutely! You can use LFB to stop wheelspin when you're accelerating, and when you're trying to slow down on ice you can keep a little gas on and LFB to avoid wheel lock up.
@vibratingstring I have never driven a Camry or elentra so I can only react in general. If you mean pump through as I understand it then no you can not increase brake pressure through a closed valve. The only possibility is that abs also wanted to increase pressure. That's why it's important to push the pedal even when it is vibrating. On really slippery (or polished ice on which we test our systems) ice the slip curve is not too steep so if you overbrake without abs you do not loose much but definitely loose some traction. Try to disable abs , @teamoneil has a video about it, and measure in same conditions with and without it. Regarding TCS switch off it depends on how the manufacturer wants it but usually we only disable engine control. So yes in this case you are in charge of "sum" wheel slip if it is too extensive just let off throttle. Brake action remains to have the "differential" effect.
Hi Team Oneill. Thanks for the videos. Can u make a video about lsd braking lock and lsd preload? What tuning on bumpy roads ör grippy roads. I read a lot of stuff but im sure u will describe it beter...
1:53 the Chrysler 300 has that system. It wouldn’t go forward on slick conditions like I’ve, so I had to turn off the traction control in the winter time. It took too long to launch even if I go pedal to the metal.
So much for the Classic Jeep Cherokee. I always thought they had some magical 4x4. Turns out you get to open diffs with a manual xfer case. I can see why someone would add a limited slip rear.
so if i have an open diff in the back would applying the handbrake a bit make both the wheels spin? and does that also count for the normal brakes in front?
have you guys ever checked out these Val-racing Russian R160 LSDs on eBay? Pretty curious if they are any good (for a Vermont street/dirt daily ripper anyway, not a real rally car) . They are less than $400 shipped. If I buy one, do you guys do installs?
Top stuff keep it coming! This also makes me sure about having some sort of locking rear diff on my old Impreza. It's really hard to find solid information about whether my specific model should have or not, some say open some say viscous.
Second time watching the video; still great! But I have a new question. I've been practicing left foot breaking in my 2000 5speed honda accord. Since it's an open diff, are both wheels still spinning when I'm applying brake with the left foot and turning or just one wheel?
Awesome! Yes you can definitely ride the brakes to keep one tire from spinning and force the diff to turn both tires with more equal power. It may not be exactly 50-50 left-right but you can definitely keep it from going 100-0.
@@Teamoneilrally OMG thank you for the reply! I will definitely be signing up for some lessons in the future when I'm finished school. Best wishes from Canada!
Can you help with light braking if one wheel on your open diff is slipping? I have open diff fwd and i heard that some offroad guys use the brakes on difficult tracks.
How about a Honda Element AWD. I have one, and it is awesome in general, but really good in snow and ice. Will it rally? Is it allowed in the rules? Its insurance designation is a station wagon which is great on insurance, and I believe allows it in the rules.
so for 4wd vs awd, is the 4wd's transfer case like a welded center diff? why do you get spinning corners with 4wd and spinning same-sides with awd? (white jeep vs red subaru)
As you explained around 12:30 the only way i get out of my garage ramp when it snows is to turn of the ESP of my CLK esle i keep sliding and sliding and sliding without going up the ramp. I manage to climb it really easy without the ESP by just having the car doing exactly what i want it to do.
would like to see something on how differentials affect braking by gearing down. if it is a manual transmission does changing gears offer any advantage?
Hi guys, got a question on the torsen diff; I've been wanting to put one in the front of my Impreza gc8, but I've been "scared off" it by reading on forums that it really doesnt perform that well on loose surfaces, since when it is slippery it obviously can't transfer a lot of torque if not any torque at all. In your clip with the Fiesta ST though, it looks like its working pretty well on that packed snow/ice. What's you guy's take on it? How do you like it on loose surfaces?
Well the Fiesta ST uses brake torque vectoring. Which you could basically think of as high performance traction control as it's designed primarily to transfer torque rather than to stop wheel spin.
Do you guys have any write ups or videos showing how you setup the wrx with the centre lock, ebrake and front diff ect. Really want to do this to my car, but not quite sure where to start. Also deleting abs on these cars which fuse do you guys pull there is quite a few and I'm not sure if some are running other things as well
Yes you can install a Quaife diff just like the one we put in the bright green ST in the video. The ST comes stock with an open diff and traction control, and you can see what the quaife does in the video. There are more aggressive plate diffs available as well, but they're less street-drivable and harder on the axles and everything else.
Awesome video as always, could you make a video on your handbrake setups for the subis, I've been converting a 2.5 impreza into rally cross car and thinking I need a hydraulic clutch, my legacy I just wired the handbrake to turn it to fwd when I pulled it, not sure if this same method can be used on 07 impreza, what do you do with your 2.5's
Wow awesome video, very interesting ! I was hoping to see a mitsubishi lancer on there with active centre diff and active yaw control. Would love to see active diffs explained like on world rally cars through the decades.
My mk5 Jetta has the TC that will cut power to the throttle it’s very annoying in winter have to turn it off because it’s manual but on dry asphalt it hooks up pretty good
When you brought out the Transit I laughed because I had one of these vans for work and know how much they suck in the snow!!! That thing would get stuck on wet pavement.... No joke!!
The center diff is rarely completely open, even a viscous center diff will spin both front and rear driveshafts pretty well (unless it's badly worn out)
The STI has limited slip diffs front and rear, which is an excellent setup for rally. The WRX only has a limited slip in the rear, which is still pretty great, but only 2008 and older. In 2009 the WRX got an open rear diff and traction control... Booo
Torsen works like this: If you had the rear left wheel on the ground and the rear right wheel in the air you would only spin the right wheel in the air. If you applied brakes while on throttle THEN it would transition power to the other wheel. They are typically intended for tarmac use because of this. On tarmac they give a really cool gradual increase of power transition.
Torsen diff is considered intermediate lsd to cater towards mild racing or sport road driving...because it will reat like normal open diff when 1 of the tyre floating in the air.. the weaker type of lsd is viscous coupling...using viscous fluid when slipping, fhe fluid reacts and thicken to grip the diff and transfer the torque equally...downside is total amount of torque can be transferred is way lower than torsen lsd... For maximum lsd performance the clutch pack lsd (1way, 1.5 way, 2 way) is considered ultimate lsd fit for motorsport use...(or welded diff for cheap drift hack) 😂
Great video. Thanks. I would like to see a modern 4wd car with adjustable TCS . Like off road mode or rock crawling mode or winter or whatever the car maker calls it.
anyways turn on to my street when entering a residential street I always hit the all-wheel lock. I came to my alleyway which has had some melting going on in the last few days of snow yesterday. So little islands and slush. At the alleyway I had a big puddle deep etc. so i was already in the all-wheel lock and i pushed the button thinking i was turning it on. went forward left front wheel up on an island and the right front down at an angle now getting traction moving up a good incline both right and left front tires meet ice and snow at the top rear wheels to follow...then I realize I did not have the all-wheel lock on. It griped pretty well surprisingly. Curious is that thing? I like to think of the all-wheel lock bracing everything keeping everything tight. if i had the lock on would I have angled in the puddle as I did or would the four-wheel lock have kept up and found another way through?. I always feel like with the all-wheel lock-in that situation the vehicle has to twist more without the help of the all-wheel lock. Also, curious e traction control is that how I was able to ease through so well thinking that I had the lock on but the traction control actually giving torque to the rear anyway. Saw the jeep ch at the end there have an all wheel lock...like mine except as I explained mine was off when ''i thought it was on ....
Good video, but one correction and a few additions. A Quaife is not a limited slip diff and it does not guarantee that you won't end up with only one wheel spinning. It does not react to slip, it reacts to torque imbalance. It is a torque biasing differential. The helical cut worm-like gears in a Quaife (or Torsen, or Peloquin) create a torque multiplication effect such that it will direct more torque to the side with the greater traction. Eg. if the gear teeth angles create a torque multiplier of say 3 to 1, and it takes 100 lb-ft of torque to spin the tire with the lowest traction, then the gears will direct up to 300 lb-ft to the side with greater traction. In your test the traction difference between sides wasn't too great, so the Quaife could find a way to send torque to both sides. But if the low traction side requires *zero* torque to spin (one tire is off the ground), then 3 times zero is still zero, and it'll send virtually no torque to the high traction side and the other side still spins freely (I've tested this with one side on pavement, and the other in the air). This is why torque biasing differentials are almost never used on off road 4x4 vehicles because lifting a tire off the ground is fairly common while rock crawling. The notable exception is the Hummer H1, which had Torsen diffs front/rear/center (with no center lock) and in a rock crawling situation could be completely disabled by lifting one tire off the ground. The workaround was to manually apply the brakes and gas at the same time. Even with equal braking to all four corners, the Torsen's torque multiplier effect would cause the diff to shunt 2-3x the torque across one or two diffs to the corners with the greater traction and away it goes. In fact even modern electronic traction control works *better* with a torque biasing differential because it takes less braking force to the spinning tire to push much more torque to the side with traction, so you get less of that momentum robbing effect you mentioned at the end of the vid. Also maybe worth mentioning (maybe worth demonstrating in another vid) that many modern AWD vehicles do not have a center differential , but just a viscous or multi-plate clutch coupling between front and rear. Nominally they are a front wheel drive vehicle until slip is detected between front and rear, and then the center coupling engages sending some torque to the rear. Examples of this are the vast majority of VW's "4motion" vehicles, Volvos AWD offerings (both VW and Volvo use Haldex couplings), all of Hyundai's AWD vehicles and many more compact and mid sized crossovers. Even Subaru's current ATS (Active Torque Split) AWD system usedon all their CVT vehicles is really just a center clutch pack that can activate *before* slip is detected (same with newer generation Haldex units). These types of clutch pack based center couplings offer some advantages in terms of active control, but their main reason for existence is to increase highway cruising efficiency. Basically you disconnect the rear end when power there is not needed. Even the GKN Twinster AWD system in the Ford Focus RS has no center differential. A regular center drive shaft always turns the rear differential's input shaft, but the rear diff has no spider gears. It always turns both inner output shafts at the same speed, and then couples them to the drive shafts via two independent clutch packs. This allows you to disconnect the rear axles from the front entirely, or drive both at equal speeds, or to send more power to one side. If the final drive ratio is a little different front to rear, you can even overdrive the rear tires (spin em faster than the front) which is probably how they pull of their drift mode trick.
I'd like to see pedal videos w/AWD (STi & SUV preferred) initiating drift going up and down steep roads, with opposite road banking and without substantial road banking on icy and deep rut snow please. The closest rally school near me is Go4ItRacing and he charges ~$400 per 1-2 hour, otherwise I'd just cough it up and ask him. I'm destined to learn by rallying my subdivision if I want to keep my mods up. I live in the middle of nowhere..
