@@user-wk6xw9iv2v Super Smash Brothers Melee runs at 30 frames per second. Every single frame, characters can move or be moved. When being knocked back and experiencing hitstun, the only movement a player can make is "DI" in order to avoid being KOd. Regardless of DI, eventually a player will be KOd and lose their stock. The player known as Shroomed was experiencing knockback from Jigglypuff's down-special, "Rest". This move has a very small hitbox but great knockback. As Shroomed's character is of medium weight and was at a very high percent, it is almost guaranteed that this attack would KO him, losing the entire game. However, the time runs out, and the game ends as a draw. At the speed Shroomed was moving, the amount of frames per second in Melee, his percentage and position on the screen all indicate that this was, in fact, a frame perfect taunt as stopping to taunt a single frame earlier could have given Jigglypuff the opportunity to kill him sooner and win the entire game.
I don't have a problem with Icys, if you main icys and wobble every now and then that's fine, but if you main icys specifically to wobble that's what I would have a problem with. However what happened at the end is a good example of why I cant stand the melee community, its not cool and that puff does not deserve that win, also the fox that taunts 30 times that's also not cool. When you bully a person like that because they play a character you hate I don't think you should have the right to pick up a controller and play you know? what has that person done to you? nothing but yet they have the audacity to just crush there spirits and just embarrass them in front of everyone watching for the soul reason of you hating that character. Shame on all the people who did wrong in this vid and respect your fellow players because this kind of stuff is just uncool plain and simple.
DotFoxTom They make everyone else have a bad time with their cheap bullshit zero-to-death GRAB. I think it's fair to fuck with them as much as the game will allow. (I don't condone being a douche to them in real life, btw. That's way too far.) Also, the only reason anyone plays Icies at a tournament level is because of wobbling. If Icies didn't have that, they'd be low tier. You can't say, "oh, uh, but some people only do this shitty exploit some of the time" when that's all the character has. They do it every time they can, otherwise they would not have picked this character.
imagine pullin up ready to show some of your skill for huge cash prizes just for some guy to kill you once then purposely avoid you for the entire rest of the game
@@bixlord ice climbers have a lot of cool unique combo routes thanks to de sinking, you just don’t see them because wobbling is so stupidly easy and gives you the same result for doing less, why learn or do a complex combo when you can just grab.
Ryan Collis COLIN IS CRAZY!! (btw colin is colbol, i can use his first name because we are tight like that. yeah i know top players but its whatever to me lol.
@@benjaminratthe9904 Because people hate that wobbling shit in Melee. Didn't at one point that move got banned or IC in general so people wouldn't abuse it?
Id rather die from a desync combo than being wobbled I can at least somewhat prevent my death instead of just sitting there staring at the screen and hopping they mess it up
The issue is that wobbling is relatively easy compared to desync combos in melee. This has lead to melee IC players not pushing the IC meta forward because wobbling is easier and more optimal than desyncs. If wobbling was banned, new strategies would be found and ICs would probably still be viable.
I'm certain Shroomed knew full well he was going to get rested as soon as he threw out that taunt and just timed it perfectly so everyone could see it while still winning
@@hhhhhh-vi6sq what patience? You just get a percentage lead and run away for the rest of the match. It takes no skill and even less effort than wobbling. How is peach not allowed to time out an opponent, yet jiggs gets off scott free
@@Rahnonymous you need patience to not randomly run in and do dumb shit when in a percentage or stock deficit. with wobbling you just grab 4 times and win lmao, wobbling takes much less skill.
7:48 Has to be the saddest moment in history. The two most hated characters in Melee, the most broken matchup, so broken that everyone stopped playing out of frustration. That’s not just insulting to the player. That’s insulting to the game.
well... Puff's camping options are unbeatable by a wide margin. With Puff, all she needs to do is run away at any point in the match. With ICs, you need to get your opponent to %60 (which in of itself is a feat and a half considering how fucking hyperactive the top 3 are), and hit a grab, and make sure Nana is set up the right way. Wobbling is definitely lame, but Puff camping is definitely worse
That Evo moment was hilarious though because the players were both in on it, Puff camping is just sad because in like half of her matchups there's literally nothing the other player can do.
@@uli_Gio Think he's talking about the Bayonetta ditto where two people, CaptainZack and Lima, both held B against each other in GF set 2 for an extended period of time and only stopped once asked to play the game by the TOs. It made the smash community look pretty bad in the eyes of their FGC counterparts.
Ice climbers couldn't wobble. They said that would prevent people from camping (running away). Puff player took the lead and decided to camp anyway, waiting for the timer to go down and win by timer instead of actually playing the game. Ice climber guy gave up trying to chase him down and quit the match. Puff player wasted everyone's time by being incredibly lame. I'm not so familiar with tournament level play but if they didn't have timers this would be avoided.
Why did the ICs player stop chasing? I know puff bair is tough to contest when they’re camping but it’s not impossible right? The puff player has no reason to approach.
I’m sorry friend. But unless puff makes a rather large mistake Icies can’t reach Puff. Imagine Fox on the pokemon figurine map. You can’t realistically reach them.
@@BBGirlSamus yeah because the melee clip in question was in pools. With people who have the possibility of being toxic. People can show up to your event and want to camp in order to win. The campers don't win big tho, however Smash 4 had 2 people in Grand Finals of probably the biggest Smash 4 event at the time. And BOTH player chose to camp
@@xelectrix_1863 the reason they did it was because they were heavily criticized for the character they played, not that their behavior was excusable, but they chose to stall not out of strategy but as a form of backlash to their haters.
@@BBGirlSamus I understand that but the initial statement only talked about the camping portion of the scenario. I'm just trying to make it as clear as possible that the scenario we see in the video is a much more toned down version of the Smash 4 incident. Tbh I just want everyone to get along in the community no matter the Smash game, but it's literally impossible.
As a wise commenter once said, ChuDat's intentionally dropped wobble was genius not just because of the extreme BM, but also because it takes away from the air of coolness from the person who puts down the controller early.
The Faux x Chango match was so annoying to see Faux acting as if he was in the right. If you're down and YOU don't approach, then all booing is yours for the taking.
Naw fuck that ic are unviable without wobbling my dude. I think it’s not impossible to play around, or all the top players would be playing ic and getting wobbles, yet not a single ic player in the top ten should be okay to let it live
TØM HΛTCHER I mean I don’t even really think they are that viable with wobbling anyways. I feel like the ics match up is about 70-60% mental, which I feel like makes the matches the best to watch. Good players who can read movement and predict the opponents approach options choose to play ics for the ultimate punish of a wobble. I think that’s pretty cool and I don’t believe it to be unhealthy. Just don’t get grabbed bro
It's such a love hate relationship for me. Some of the IC's that are pure wobblers have pretty good or even godlike defensive game, so *sometimes* it's really cool to see them outplay/outspace someone and get the finish... But like... Ugh it's dumb to watch while waiting for the next moment they "out play" their opponent. Whack-Whack, Whack-Whack, Whack-Whack. Shame that handoffs are not the meta, even if it's almost the exact same concept it's still way fucking cooler to watch.
@@Jardonius Yea thing is you can be good and play ICs but while you're wobbling you're doing something that requires much less skill than the reward you're given. Thus you're giving yourself a crutch and if you're a good player you shouldn't need or want that. I also disagree with the amount of advanced tech in the game though so i personally would just play Ultimate myself. But yea for Melee Wobbling should be banned every event. It's about time people realize the game isn't perfect and the community actually can help it get closer to being there rather then just put up with obvious bs that's needed to be addressed for decades.
@@Jardonius I actually would be fine with wobbling if they instead did it in the handoff style because that at least looks cooler and has some skill to it.
Chango (puff) had a one stock lead on Faux. Wobbling (ice climber's best strategy by far) was banned in this tourney, something that basically made him vulnerable to everything, especially getting timed out. Puff is very good at avoiding conflict, so Chango made the executive decision to not actually play the game.
@@user-fe8gx3ie5v It's kind of a grey area, where he wasn't technically stalling, there was just literally nothing Faux could do to get to Chango. They might've analyzed it and stuff but I don't know.
in that m2k leffen match where the commentator says that both players are playing out of his mind I'm curious why he thinks Leffen missing every tech is particularly grand play
@Quest Tzecai Kill confirms off grabs do not exist with every character. The ones that do are extremely precise, and only work at certain windows. Ice Climbers press Z once when you're at 0 and you die. It's not anywhere in the realm of comparable to any other grab in the game. Anyone who says they're similar has no brain stem development.
@@frogchip6484 if you want to "git gud" consistently and quicker play Marth. But you have to realise at higher play, your character matters less than your actual fundamentals of fighting games and mu specific knowledge. It's why you can see m2k dumping on some kid with Pichu in pools without breaking a sweat, or how players such as Axe, Chudat, luigikid etc got super high in placing.
Seeing a one-trick pony IC player get stomped on in the end because their favorite exploit was banned is so satisfying. This IC clown sits there asking himself "How is this fair for me?", but he doesn't ever stop to think about the opponents he one-shotted in the past with wobbling who were asking themselves the same question while they were forced to watch their characters get hit for minutes on end without being able to escape.
@@superheriber27 “Derr derr derr Puff player was being lame!” No, Ice Climbers and wobbling is lame. Did you even pay attention to the prior parts of the video? Wobbling forces your opponent to sit there and stare at the screen just as the Puff player forced the IC player to sit there and stare at the screen while he plays keep away. TOO BAD! The Ice Climbers player lost because he couldn’t play anything else other than his niche, no-name, trash tier character and abuse his favorite glitch to get free wins. It’d be more honorable for him to play Fox than Ice Climbers. THAT’S how pathetic it is for someone to one trick Ice Climbers in Melee.
@@UndertakerU2ber In that specific tournament wobbling was banned, so it wasn't a factor, if other players in other tournaments used wobbling is a bit irrelevant to this match lol Not to mention this was game 5 in a top 16, your ass wouldn't make it that far with Fox, even less a "niche. no-name, trash tier character" without wobbling kek
Lmao take wobbling away and the Icies suck so bad they dont even want to finish the match. But the JigglyPuff shouldve been the one to lose that one cuz how do you approach when your main cheese is gone.
It's their fault for playing icies. While I am not a fan of this stupid camping gimmick, their grab cheese is a stupid gimmick to rely on for tournaments...
@@mccainjames116 right, but that's because the player has good fundamentals. If he played falco/marth/sheik at the same level, he'd easily taken that set. Icies without wobbling is like falco without a shine.
@@Coolbeans554 Not if your opponent has good DI/SDI, not to mention at higher percents, shine-->shine-->fire fox won't combo, therefore taking a while to kill with purely shine, unlike how wobbling is a guaranteed kill.
it's weird and arguably bad, but it's balanced. ICs suck and even with the most OP single mechanic in the game they still couldn't make it to the top. having wobbling just made them an interesting, min-maxed character
Chango wasn’t camping ice climbers. Fauxhebro refused to approach even though the ball was in his court, as he was down a stock. It’s Fauxhebro’s fault.
I'm confused with the last one. If the person is down a stock would it not be normal for them to be the one who needs to approach, regardless of if they will be at a disadvantage. Instead he just leaves? (Don't play melee just using my own general logic with games.)
The context of this match was the Puff leaving the entire time. In that message you could clearly see he was set out to not play. You could say whatever you want about the ethics of winning or whatever, but going out of your way to not play the game is just super lame, unnecessary, boring, and just a dick move that literally nobody wants.
@@Themonkeymartin the amount of people who miss this is unbearable and unironically supporting this kind of play because "you do anything to win bro" leads to unskilled bozos cheesing wins because "it's technically not against the rules"
@@slamsauce6848 Exactly. I also like the people defending it when in even legit fighting coemptions where not only are you motivate to "do whatever it takes to win" you also don't want to get your ass kicked have rules against not engaging which jiggly puff was not doing lol.
Chango was up in stocks and would win if there was a timeout, and it was advantageous to force Faux to approach rather than doing it himself. It's not poor sportsmanship, it's the right decision in the match. Faux was losing the game at that point - if he didn't commit to an attack then the timeout would make him lose. Instead of playing the game, he conceded in the most petulant way possible, because the tournament didn't allow wobbling. Wobbling is honestly the worst bullshit in Melee, and it's not like the tournament rules weren't clear about it beforehand - he had a damn shirt printed up about it. Faux was clearly in the wrong and wanted to bitch and moan to seem like a victim.
When you play any game, you sign an unsaid contract that you will PLAY the game. Chango was a bitch here and broke that contract simply because he knew he could. Wobbling may suck, but at least it doesn't lead to people being this big of dickheads just to win.
Its actually pretty tough to get a wobble unless you're playing at a really high level - even then it isn't consistent but its what makes icies good in melee.
Chango camped because he had a stock lead, so there was no reason for him to approach. Fauxhebro camped because IC don't really have good options to contest puff circle camping when they're at a stock deficit, and he was also trying to make more of a statement because he was very angry at BC banning wobbling.
That’s because it’s literally impossible for icies to approach puff. Like the video stated, the matchup was already hard enough with wobbling, imagine without.
Because people will look for any reason to dislike Jigglypuff. Ice Climbers player KNEW it was a bad matchup, and took it to game 5 anyway. Yet he decided to give up. Not Chango's fault for playing the matchup. It IS, however, Faux's fault for refusing to.
Litteral Trash Its his fault for solo maining a character with such strong matchup problems, it's why no one solo mains sheik, because a solo sheik has never won a big tournament
i like how toph states the importance of spacies as if they're the only answers to puff when there are other chars who can fuck puff up (Marth, Falcon, Pika, Ganon, Luigi, Ylink, G&W) but too bad you don't see most of them much because they're getting SPANKED by the spacies, meanwhile hbox who p much counters tf outta spacies at this point brings the karma to a worldwide level. Bottom line, NO.. Spacies aren't the only answer to puff. They play a very important role in the metagame and keep various characters on check, yes, but there are other characters who have tools to beat puff. They just don't make it far enough to showcase said tools.
I don't think that was what he was talking about when he said spacies are important. He is saying they are important so the game is fun to watch without people camping.
sometimes the disrespect is part of a friendly competitive match....but then you get people actually just being assholes. camping with puff is something that should never be allowed
And because it's over immediately. If rest did something like freeze them in place for 30 seconds people would hate it too. I hate it anyway, gimmicks are usually lame
HashSlingingSlasher Resting occurs immediately, can be countered if timed properly, and is an incredibly risky move used at the wrong time; wobbling takes little to no skill, you can’t get out of it if you’re stuck in it, and can unnecessarily drag on the match to the point where it’s not even interesting to watch or play.
@@austins9795 resting can be "countered if timed properly"? Uh, no, not when it's in a true combo. And if you can avoid the lead into the combo, you can say the same thing about the grab.
I’m starting to think Fauxhebro doesn’t know how to count. The poor guy doesn’t realize he’s down a stock and needs to approach. He’s waiting for puff to approach like an idiot 😂
Unsure if you're joking, but there's a lot of backstory to that game. It's not as simple as Fauxhebro just needing to approach. There's a whole vid about this match, you might enjoy it. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-z8llYT7KGdI.html edit: oops, it's not just about this match, it also talks about some others. But it is featured. You get the point.
Kaeon bitching about ICs while having literally the most lopsided favorable matchup in the game... there’s honesty no excuse for getting wobbled with peach.
Top tier disrespects 1.Crush vs Diz- bring back crush nuff said 2.Tif vs maXy- Trif is a god and this is probably one of my favorite stocks I’ve ever seen taken 3.Any of Chudats wins- the yeahyuz is just too iconic 4.Any of Hboxs major wins- but in a bad way
Webby Webster ikr that’s just how you play the game. To win. Plus I’m pretty sure the puff player was so salty just from ice climbers’ existence that he just took advantage of the wobbling ban and made his life a living hell. I kinda respect that ngl.
@@NotFrogBox I never understand why people get so mad at optimal play. I'm sorry you find it boring and uninteresting. Not everyone does. There's a reason Hungrybox is #1. Camping and optimal defensive play aren't the same thing. Hbox throws out 3 back airs in a row and then does a tomahawk up throw and somehow it's camping. I don't get it.
@@verde7595 Because Hbox says things like "camping is so lame" on twitter, then proceeds to do ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0UsRJBdHCk4.html
@@VideoGamesRus100 Lame isn't necessarily a negative term. That's what I think at least. Besides, he has to do it with Jiggs. I don't see him winning any other way.
@@verde7595 Theres a difference between defensive and not engaging. Its not even about finding it boring and uninteresting. That jiggly puff in the last clip was clearly trying to avoid and not play the game at all. In fighting tournaments in real life there are rules against it so if y'all want to start getting treated as a "real sport" so bad shit like that can't happen where someone can win by not playing.
Everyone going nuts about M2K grabbing the fox illusion. The game literally gives you an audio cue to do it. You hear that ding and just press Z and you got yourself a grab
