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Yep, and the sprites had been using that proportion since at least gen 3, plus the official artwork. Then they went back to the inferior Butterfree design of the anime artworks with the smaller head and basically no posing at all.
One thing I'm missing a lot from the sprites is stuff like the variable animation speeds. Like Butterfree having very slow, graceful looking wing flaps, like a real butterfly, gives it the same playfulness and lighter than air feeling as a butterfly. Beedrill flapping it's wings like crazy also reminds me of an aggressive wasp, like you would just sit in your garden and than hear it swoop by.
It feels like Game Freak were trying to reuse as much animation data between pokemon as they could, flattening their personalities. Which I guess makes sense; it takes twice as much animator time to make twice as many brand-new animations, and that would mean spending twice as much money on what amounts to icing on the cake. It's not unimportant, it needs to be good enough that it doesn't ruin the cake, and it can absolutely be artful, but if it's just _fine_ it's not going to turn away many people. And combat idle animations are both the easiest animations to reuse and, with modern games' Pokemon-playtime minigames, arguably the least important animations for establishing Pokemon personality. I'd probably want to spend those animator-hours on the idle animations, but I'm not exactly an MBA.
@@timothymcleanGeneration 10, I feel like they NEED to make that a priority. I understand that it's a lot of work, but now that the models are all made, they can afford to go back in and tweak+diversify the animations a bit. I'm not asking for every move to get a unique animation (that'd be ridiculous), but giving some Pokemon separate animations for punching moves or kicking moves, for example, would already be a significant step up in the visual flair of battles
I think it is also like... Missing that theres a bunch of animations other than the idle sprite too lol Every one of the 3d vs sprite comparisons is mainly just about the idle animations (and heck, usually said animation cut out from a specific angle) and not like...everything else the 3d versions do while the sprite is just a mosaic that doesn't do a thing after that Should we compare them to Pokemon card art too
The sad thing is, they absolutely COULD look amazing in 3d with the right effort. Look at how lively they looked in Stadium/Colosseum/XD/Battle Revolution.
The problem is the sheer *scale* of the job of adding each and every pokemon into the game. I'm not surprised that every pokemon doesn't get the attention it deserves, there's just so damn many of them. They've more than doubled the number of pokemon since those two games.
@@kevingriffith6011 They could just re-use the actual good animations of every Pokémon from the first 4 gens. (Battle Revolution). And since the new games don't even include that many Pokémon, the only new animations they would have to create would be any 'mon from Gen 5 or up
@@kevingriffith6011 The games don't even include all the Pokemon anymore, and I'm tired of the "it's too hard" excuse for the developer of the world's most profitable media franchise that also has close ties with Nintendo. I understand it's still a huge undertaking, but considering how half assed other parts of the games have been recently, it's not like that effort is being used elsewhere.
@@michaelkerr7696 They could.... if Gamefreak was actually the one who made those animations. Sadly, they were made by a third party company, one that im not sure if they still work with anymore. Besides, it has been literal decades since they made those animations. They might not even have those animations in their database anymore, and even if they do, it would take some work to update the animations to work with the models and rigs they use today. It's honestly easier and cheaper to do what they have been doing which is basically reuse animation from x and y, with some touchups here and there.
Ferrothorn’s BW sprite hanging from the ceiling is part of what made me love said zero-fuck-giving hanging steel durian plant, and while I get why it doesn’t work as well in 3D it is a disappointing downgrade.
@bdletoast09 I'm so glad a majority of the community has turned back to praise b&w. I never understood any of the dislike for it when those games came out. On fact b&w were what got me back into pokemon for crying out loud! I have so many fond memories of those two games and their pokemon.
They really could have just ended Pokémon then and there and no one would have complained. Only now are they doing something about the boring 3d models, and only now are they making new good stories for Pokemon again even within the current Pokemon story trends, partially by letting there be an actual jerk rival (Blue just had attitude, and Silver is not just a jerk but also a misanthrope influenced by his father).
(Just checking: how familiar are you with the other animations of Pokémon’s 3D models? Attacking, walk/run cycles, happy/sad reactions, etc. I agree that some Pokémon’s new idle poses are boring, but factoring in other animations makes for a more fair comparison.)
@@mirandatagliamonte9754 And there are non-battle animations to consider, too. And hundreds of Pokemon who all need every single one of those animations. If I see one more person comparing Pokemon animation to Breath of the Wild or something, I am going to scream.
@@timothymclean If it helps, I’m currently compiling a Google Doc of every Pokémon’s animations from whatever gifs I can find. I’ll share it publicly when it’s done. If you know where to find good gifs of attack, fainting, and idle animations, let me know.
Man i really hope that the pokemon team can hire animators AND give them ample time to amazing work on 3d models. It always feel like it not the limitations of 3d but the work put into it
Absolutely. Better work is definitely possible and has been demonstrated before. It just take a lot of time and/or staff dedicated to it. Unfortunately the pace of Game Freaks’s release schedule doesn’t grant them enough time to do things properly, to do it justice, which is a shame. It also doesn’t have to be that way cuz they certainly call their own shots and are obviously not hurting for money so they could just choose to take longer in between releases and hire more people to work on their games. Seems like a bizarre choice to do things this way but I suppose they’re happy with the returns they get based on their efficiency of making the most money while spending the least amount of money necessary to do it.
I think they’re already doing that. The models from X/Y are generally stiff with simpler animations because the staff had to make 700+ models with 5+ animations each in time for the games’ release (including models for Pokémon that weren’t designed with 3D in mind), but the models/animations from Sun/Moon onward are visibly more lively and creative because the animators didn’t have to make as many of them. Open a newer game and check the Pokémon’s animations in the dex, and you’ll see the difference. Honestly, many of the newer games seem rushed, but I think the Pokémon are the least rushed aspect of them. One developer claimed that creating a Pokémon takes six months on average, so I think it’s their main priority.
@@mirandatagliamonte9754 it would be nice if they put aside some time to rework the older animations in need of some love. And reverted all the sky battle animations.
It was always weird to me that there was never any type of stylization when converting the Pokémon roster into 3d when it comes to their pose animations like... You can make Butterfree have their black and white body language in 3d but they just don't, all of them are just the Pokémon sitting or standing in the most straightforward way possible with a little bit of wiggling
@@Ash_Yu Part of the issue is that no fans have bothered to make rips and gifs of the newer games animations in the same style as the ones everyone uses.
I think the big thing to take into consideration is the 2D sprites were trying to convey them in action, since they were limited to still frames originally. In contrast, the 3D models try to convey them in rest/neutrality, as they would be in the wild.
That makes sense except for the fact that these models are still specifically used in BATTLE. If any situation calls for more dynamic posing and behavior it’s a fight. If I see two animals fighting and one of them stands stock still and sways slightly side to side I’m gonna assume it suffered a traumatic brain injury and “all pokemon have a concussion all the time” isn’t a takeway Gamefreak should want to convey
And then they return to the idle animation immediately after doing their attack animation (WHEN there is much of an animation, and not just some twitching of the model followed by the attack's special effect), which still looks awkward. Creatures in a battle shouldn't, at any point of the fight, be looking this calm and stiff - these animations make sense for browsing them in the Pokédex or something, but they should have more active idle animations that imply aggressiveness and whatnot.
It’s also important to note that the 3D models have 1-2 attack animations each, which often do a better job of conveying the aggression of battle, but aren’t taken into account as often.
Putting Beedrill on the ground in an almost charging/scorpion pose on all fours could help it look more menacing, with the occasional buzz of its wings and some more sporatic movements
The pixel beedril sprite looks like the artist referenced a real insect wasp body-shape as its biting or stinging. The 3-D beedrill looks like they referenced a beedrill...
Even if they vastly reduced the pokedex, I would LOVE animations like we had back in Stadium/Colosseum/XD. The pokemon had so much personality. Effects on attack animations too. It was actually fun to watch battles because of it.
here is a thing i thought i would see as top comment. in the first sprites of kakuna it has its arms/claws out, the two little things in the middle of its shell/cocoon. those gave it a lot more character in my opinion.
Man, if only some company had made like. High Definition 2D as an engine. Such a thing would he a slame dunk for Pokemon. Do bad every company seems to Square to try it.
I love that you acknowledge that some pokemon actually *do* look good in their 3D models, as many people like to bitch and moan that all change is bad and all 3d models are worse than sprites and it's important to acknowledge that yes, sometimes the change *is* good. Not that I had any doubts that you would, I know Skyen always cares more about a good judgement of a design than jumping on any bandwagon.
It's not a question of is 2D or 3D better, it's all about the skill, enthusiasm, and flair of the animators. So so many new pokemon animations are just the absolute bare bones of what can be called "animated".
Butter free is such an adorable Pokémon, and it was the cutest thing in BW2! I used it as a catcher bc it’s just so cute, I wish it wasn’t so dead in 3D
I think if Beedrill had the arm spikes pointed up a bit like if they just flipped the arms it'd look a lot better. More like a "I'm ready to use these" feeling that way.
A note about beedrill 2d sprite is that it's striking a typical fencer pose with one stinger pointed forward and one arm raised in the air for balance and STYLE. Imagine this terrifying bee monster that knows medieval rapier techniques. Jesus christ how horrifying
If it wasnt the limit you put on yourself when it comes to making these shorts you could include the second animation most pokemon have when theyre idle.
And all the other animations! It annoys me so much that no one’s made gifs of most Pokémon’s attack animations, walk/run cycles, fainting animations, happy/sad reactions, etc. I feel like the conversation around the 3D models would be very different if it was easier to look up these animations.
Honestly the 3D Models would have all been better if the models moved more outside of attacks. Like if beedrill crossed its arms, or brandished its tail stinger every few seconds for example? Instant improvement.
I think it does brandish its tail stinger. All Pokémon have random idle animations, so they do move a bit. And don’t forget the out-of-battle animations, like walk cycles and happy reactions.
Make sure you’re also using the most recent 3d models!!! Some Pokémon for example Venusaur and Charizard got massive upgrade to their 3d models when moved to scarlet and violet where their facial expressions are better and there’s textures on the Pokémon that appeared in scarlet and violet
You’ve given me the idea of taking ripped pokemon models and trying to re-animate some of their older poses If I only had the required skillset to actually animate something 3d
I honestly think it's time we give the....non idle animations, some attention, I loved seeing starmie move it's "head" left and right and weavile checking it's claws
If I am correct, in Scarlet and Violet some pokemon have "battle poses" they only use in battle, and use a different animation out of battle (such as summary screens and picnics), and that could be a good way to bring back some of the good posing from the sprites. Beedrill with the Black and White pose while on combat would be awesome.
He's not pitting the Gen V games against Gen VI. He's pitting Gen V (the culmination of about twelve years of sprite artwork) against Gen IIX (the culmination of about nine years of 3D artwork). It's not perfectly even, but it's even enough. Also, 3D pokemon is kinda infamous for not substantially changing the models and animations from game to game. The iterative improvements between (say) generations 7 and 8 is less than that between (say) and 3 and 4. Which is partly because the differences between GBA and DS rendering was a more dramatic shift than 3DS and 3DS/Switch.
I hope you start talking about the differences between the 3d sprites of the GameCube era and these 3d sprites soon GameCube era sprites were so much fun
“3D sprites” is an oxymoron, those are two contradictory mutually exclusive terms. A sprite is a 2D image, it’s pixel art. 3D stuff uses models instead. But I agree that the animations of the 3D models from the GameCube era were pretty damn good and better than a lot of the more recent stuff! Actually the animations in the 2 Pokémon Stadium games on the N64 are even better! All the Pokémon were so lively and had unique animations. But that was easier to do back when there were a lot less Pokémon in existence.
@@MerkhVision ahhh I actually didn't know that so thanks for the new knowledge! Yeah they were all so great! XD gale of darkness was "my" 3D Pokemon game so that's the one I always think of when I think 3D models. You're definitely right that there's WAY way more now but I wish that didn't mean they could put less effort into the 3D models
Though I agree with a lot here, you’re only discussing the difference in animation. Metapod has one of the most difficult to understand sprites, so I think seeing it in 3D will make it easier to understand which I think has some merit to it
To be fair the problem isn't the 3D models but rather the way they animated them. On the 3DS it was ok but now it is unacceptable to keep them this way.
Hot take: Most 3D sprites suck because they're the IDLE ANIMATIONS. Back then Pokemon didn't have additional sprites to attacking specially, physically, even being happy. They were given lots of character in their only sprite because it was their only visual portrayal. The character in speites nowadays is mostly in their attack animations and overworld movement. I rest my case.
the problem is not the fact that they are in 3D, but rather the fact that the models have the minimum amount of animation necessary to give the impression of a living creature.
I disagree again, making the same pose in 3D for butterfree would look really uncomfortable and I think that’s where the difference is, 3D models are meant to look alive vs 2d which are meant to catch them in action poses, those same poses wouldn’t look normal in 2D. Also for beedrill, that’s how it holds its stingers in the anime
@@miguelmorenovargas bad poses that come from the anime are still bad, the anime had ash obtain gym badges without fighting the gym leader,would that be a good idea to implement in the game?
Everytime I watch these videos I see the 3D and I think "I mean it doesn't look *that* bad" then I see them side by side and I realize HOW BIG a difference there is
Can you do a video about Pokémon with creative animations in their 3D models outside of their idle poses? It’s harder to find good footage of these animations, which contributes to the common false belief that the 2D sprites were invariably better, but highlighting these animations would be really interesting and fitting to your channel’s content.
Butterfree's sprite also has cuter proportions than its 3D model, and its legs/feet look more like they spread from the body like an animal paw rather than looking like giant goofy clown shoes. 3D butterfree is also looking *down* for some reason rather than having its head tilted up to counter the angle of its body in flight, and I'm not sure why that choice was made.
Beedrill has a ground weakness. It's attack animations should have it land to use its drill as grounded weapons, and use it's stinger for aerial attacks.
Butterfree in 3d: the wings move to fast, it may be more realistic but it makes it look less docile and cute Beedril in 3d: it looks weirdly docile and not agresive enough
I like butterfrees sprite better because the proportions are just better, the bigger head makes it look cuter and more curious but the head in 3d is just way to… dense
Something I never liked about Butterfree's 3D look was its eyes, in the sprites the eyes were always just round and matched great with its vibe it looked ADORABLE but then the model makes the eyes look cautious and almost constantly worried with them rotating into the middle a bit
Butterfree to me always embodied the idea of like a slightly unconventional pet in the Pokemon universe. Most people think its a weird ugly bug, but the people who get their cute character quirks (like how inquisitive they are portrayed by their sprites) get it, and they love their butterfrees. And I feel like the 3d model just misses that
Butterfree looks off to me proportionally. Compare the sprites and official artwork to the 3D model and you’ll notice the head is way smaller in the model. This small difference subtly does a lot to alter the design for me as it steers away from the chibi friendly childlike disposition that butterfree has, which you touched upon in the BW sprite in the posing. It just doesn’t feel like the butterfree I know. And Beedrill I agree that posing is tragic. What is bro doing?
Ninety percent of the 3d models would be just as good as the 2d sprites if game freak out more of their budget towards animation and posing the models.
The better the graphics have got, the more personality has been lost. Original Red/Blue/Green sprites had so much personality because every pixel mattered. I get there are so many more Pokémon now and it'd take more memory to give them interesting models, but surely if they gave designer a separate portfolio of Pokémon and said "make fans care the most about your personal pokémon", you'd get SUCH good designs as so much more care would be given to each
@TBSkyenShorts Have you ever considered reviewing LoL voice lines? I've found for many seasons now that the voice acting has sounded a bit contrived. I first remember noticing it with Xayah and Rakan who sounded less like characters and more like actors (if thst makes sense.) Your reviews are very inspired and I've always wondered about your opinion on this.
Can you imagine animating Beedrill and thinking “ahh yes, this Pokemon whose signature movie is drill attack (or whatever it’s called, is it pin missile?) should hold its signature poison needle arms like it’s just done a full workout and can’t be bothered”
I just wonder why they didn't give the pokemon cool poses with personality in 3d aswell, like even if they're just the same as the sprites but in 3d I wouldn't mind
