Females have a lower threshold for detection of distortion in the audible range than males. Perhaps that may be a contributing factor to her (presumed) request to lower the listening level.
@@ericdaniell2717 I don't think that is the case. It's just that for her music is usually just some background noise, she's rarely a concentrated listener to music at home.
Thank you for this explanation!! This hits EXACTLY on a question that has been bothering me about late-night nearfield listening after my wife has gone to bed. I was struggling with why my speakers sound so good at normal volume but so dead at lower levels. This was a PERFECT explanation!
Thanks Paul! Yes , I'm a heavy metal guy so there is a sweet spot to satisfy my listening preference. Unfortunately I live in an apartment and I can't really amplify the sound the way I like it! Great topic! Your a great teacher with an easy going way! Keep it up please! P.s. I can't listen to Ronnie James Dio at 3, but I don't quite need Spinal Tap's 11! 📻🎸🥁🎶🤣
The noise floor problem made itself evident during the recent lockdown. With no cars on the streets, you could turn the volume down and still hear a lot of tiny details.
Yes it is correct , both the psycological aspect and also how our ears behave . On the other side is the speakers themself . The weight of the membranes is extremely important . Also the sensitivity is important too . Sensitivity goes down with higher weight membranes and increase with lighter. Same with the strenght of the magnets , stronger magnet increase sensitivity So many increase magnet to better control the membrane . A heavy weight membrane combined with a weaker magnet is a bad combination , It both lead to very low sensitivity and low dynamics . In my studio I have two speaker systems . : One set of small studio monitors and they have also low sensitivity too . The dynamic is not so good with low levels simply because they need more power to retain headroom in the dynamic field and thus they doesn't sound that dynamic . When I give them the right amount of power the dybamic is just fine. On the other hand I also have a set of very very effective big studio system contain of two speakers with 2 times 15 inch drivers and a big horn in each . They are extremely dynamics even at very low volume thanks to the extreme dynamics they can provide . This also mean at low volume the music is really '' alive '' with impressive dynamic . This lead them to sound much better at low power levels . All those is paired with a 18 inch subwoofer to extend the very low end . When I listen to each of the two set at same decibel level ( not same volume settings at the amplifier ) It is clear that the smaller speakers doesn't have sme dynamics . This is also due to the fact that big speakers move more air with their bigger membranes and it's simple physics that by being able to move more air ( of course doing so very quickly ) will give more dynamics . Bigger speakers with stronger magnets ( provided they can do so ) will start and stop move more quickly . It take some time for a membrane to start move and also to slow down when heavy transients are present in the music . The better the speakers acceleration ratio is the more dynamics they are . Smaller speakers with heavy weight membranes will always be more slow and typically they try overcome this with stronger magnents . The reason for the more ' heavy ' material is to try control breakup in the membrane that can lead to distortion . On the other hand lighter materials if constructed correct can give great dynamics without distortion . Just look at lowther drivers . Ultra light drivers , strong magnets and great dynamics with low distortion . Same with big speakers . My big speakers have light membranes ( not so heavy weight ) and strong magnets too . It give a great control of the membrane even at low power levels so dynamics is extreme . Edit - I forgot to mention that big speakers with heavy weight membranes also need more power to move quickly and thus they will suffer the same as with smaller speakers . They will also have a much lower sensitivity and need more power ( bigger amplifier ) They will lack dynamics as it take longer time to accelerate the membrane up due to the higher weight of the membrane itself. It's have always being a kind of a myth that small speakers sound more dynamics because of the lesser weight of the membranes but in reality it's a kind of a myth ( in some cases yes but mostly NO ). Also the smaller lack the low end in the frequency due to the size of the membrane . Bigger move more air and low frequencies need to move lots of air , It's simple physics . With the right construction and materials used the bigger will always be more dynamics . ( if they are cobstructed correct ) Thanks for as always an interesting good video . Keep up the good work Paul .
Hi Paul, I think that in a certain way it dipends on loudspeakers or on the combination amp/loudspeakers. Some rigs sounds great at a low volume, other not. Like the torque in a car. I agree with all your other argomentations. Love this channel!
I agree. It seems to me certain speakers need more power put into them before they can get to their full potential. Like the difference between a small bookshelf speaker and a large floor standing speaker. 3 watts into one is going to sound a lot different on the other. That's my thought anyways.
The thing is, when you listen to a really capable system you can't tell how loud it is! Only when you press pause then play you realise how loud it was..
Part of that is due to how human hearing system works. Parts in our ears readjust slowly over time. It's always best to keep volume lower than higher when starting to play music, slowly readjust up/down, then lower after finished or keep same if you've found the perfect average volumes for all channels.
The problem with a loudness function is that there is no way to set it up right. The idea is based on the Fletcher-Munson curve, which is variable depending on sound pressure. So the loudness has to be variable, the problem is knowing how to set it. With **all** loudness controls that are essentially a tap on a volume control with an emphasis network, there is a correct setting of the control with a particular speaker, and with a particular source. So if you have two sources that are at different output levels you'll need to have a different volume control setting to obtain the desired volume, but now the loudness emphasis is different. Obviously they can't both be right, and if you don't happen to be sitting the correct distance from the loudspeaker with which the amp was designed, it will never be right. Now some amps had in addition to a volume control, a loudness control too, so you could variably set the emphasis; the problem here is knowing where to set the control. About all you know there is that if you have the volume set lower, you might want the loudness set higher?? But the reality is that you can't have any idea, not without doing a lot of measurements... Obviously the result has been since their inception that loudness settings are a gimmick and nothing more. So high end stuff omits it since its entirely useless and only causes colorations.
@@DrDryce While the audiophile purist will shun loudness controls as much as bass , mid, and treble controls ,the average person who wants good sound at low volume still prefer them. I once had separates that did have volume and loudness knobs which I thought was the best solution as I could adjusted them for what sounded right to me at the time . I sold it because I did not like the sound of the cooling fan. Mostly I have had high end receivers with only a loudness button but even that is better at low listening levels than nothing at all. I have been pleased with Bob Carver's loudness controls on his Carver and Sunfire receivers which is why I will stay with his Ultimate II AV receiver which I use mostly in stereo mode. At 200W X7 and 400W X2 into 4 ohms it is plenty powerful enough and sounds fantastic.
@@DrDryce That's a very interesting explaination, but it got me thinking, could they not invent a variable loudness control which could be adjusted by the user? That would give more flexibility depending on the aforementioned factors
Paul is right about loudness and how our sensitivity at low and high frequencies is non-linear compared to mid-range sensitivity - Fletcher Munson studied this. However there is more to it - our brain uses distortion to sense or gauge loudness. Distorted sound from poor quality speakers will sound very loud even when it is not. Speakers that do not distort do not sound loud until you reach rock concert levels.
You got that right! I miss it on a lot of newer gear. Was a fairly common feature in the 70's on integrated amps. Always did the trick at low listening levels.
Depends on the music, this is why I currently listen more to Mozart string quartets since I tend to play music at the volume the composer intended. Too much 1990s punk rock and Wagner might make me go deaf. Weirder still, when I started playing Miles Davis Kind of Blue on my rig back in 1995, one of the neighbors asked me if I could teach his son how to play trumpet given I was playing one almost everyday. Made me ask myself back then if I had already reached the so-called audio nirvana.
4:51 I also think that the dominating effect is our ears' nonlinear and non-even hearing perception which requires a loudness correction if the listening sound pressure level is not equal to that of the original source. Having said that, however, it is also important to note that the liveliness and attack of loudspeakers is mainly dominated by the tweeter. Many dome tweeters utilize ferrofluid in order to avoid thermal compression and to increase the maximum power handling. This ferrofluid needs a certain operating temperature for optimum viscosity. At lower temperatures, it may be too much dampening which results in an "uninspired" or even "liveless" sound.
No, I think he missed hte boat on this one. A lot of it has to do with transient response. A speaker or system that does not have good transient response will have to be played louder to get it to "spring to life". Simply adding bass and treble to such a speaker at low volume will not fix the problem.
several years ago i started using some quite small sony stereo speakers with a quite powerful pioneer hifi amplifier much more powerful than the speakers . The speakers sound great and never clip or distort remember speakers more likely to get destroyed by distortion of a low powered amp driven hard than by a high powered amp driven cleanly and powerfully,distortion is the destroyer (it took me many years and much expense of blown speakers to learn this )
...so when looking at the specification off a loudspeaker, which parameter tells me the loudspeaker will operate at low or very low volumes? Is that sensitivity?
Oh yeah it makes a difference. For me ,unfortunately, when I have the music at the sweet point is when the neighbors complain it's too loud. .. Sucks to be me ! Oh well, I still piss them off! !! ;)]
That could be because most amps are setup so they don't really have anything more power to deliver after that point on the volume knob. So then they start loosing power and distort more and more untill it's noticable. And at that point the tweeters and even mids risk damage. So it's normaly a sign that your amp (or speakers) is working pretty hard and don't really have more to give.
Enjoy the vids, even if in disagreement! hahaha Always, late 90's anyway, thought it was the efficiency of the speaker. As well as being able to judge quality engineering. Thank you.
I've found the 3 watt amps are more than enough; is it possible that we're listening at much less power than we think, perhaps 1/2 a watt most of the time, so a 200 watt amp will sound rubbish at such low power, so we have to turn it up ?
Very interesting. Another great video Paul. Thanks. And are those power regenerators you're standing next to? Maybe a couple of black P12s on the bottom? One of those should be mine!
My technique? When instruments sound like they are being played through a PA system... back it down till it sounds like the right timbre. Sometimes we need to listen to scale, not full size and too loud.
Here's a similar artefact, for me. Might be just my older ears. At lower volumes in my car specifically, with road noise competition (alluded to @2:15), I sometimes hear different harmonies in a song. A song in a major key starts to sound minor and is unrecognizable until I turn it up.
Ive found the 1/2 way mark on that volume dial to be optimal in most cases, on the more powerful/capable systems, somewhere between 1/4-1/2 volume. I occasionally find myself in the mood for "block party" volumes though very seldom.
For me it's 80 db for 91 db sensitive speakers... but then I added 2 Rythmik G22 subs (each with 2, 12 inch opposing speakers) and now I listen at about 75 db. Sometimes I listen to my music at low levels and I still find it magical but less involving. Does any of that make any sense? I have no clue, but I'm there to enjoy the music not tweak it perfectly for every song.
@@erikparent8176 REW'd it, it took about about 3 hours, and Rythmik have enough settings on their sub amps to get them to completely integrate. Sold my single S812 REL for this and the sound is just so much better now and much better integrated. Really happy with my decision.
There is some magic between 80-90 db 😀, And the way our ears works, we don’t hear the bass as good at lower levels, some speakers are better than others at lower volume levels, i have noticed that speakers around 86-88db in sensitivity mostly are best for bass and low volume listening,
Another thing I notice is you have your system adjusted, equalized and volume set for a certain cd and you change to another cd and every thing is totally off and has to be reset. There is no standards for how the music is recorded. A certain cd is recorded with a lot of highs and very little bass and another cd is recorded with very little highs and a lot of bass. It is so frustrating.
And there is a optimal volume where the speaker plays the best because of the actual movement in the drivers. I have no need for loudness control. I never liked them because they rarely work just as intended. They often keep the bass and treble boost too far up in volume and mess up my sound image a bit mostly in the bass.
Perhaps ps audio 'could' build a full range loudspeaker that had a flat freq responce with a crazy high spl with power.Mount it on a stand for those demo rooms??
If your system needs to be cranked to work OK then I wager you suffer bad room acoustics. After finishing the acoustics in my small room I am able to listen to that rig 30-40 lower in volume than before doing acoustic treatment- everything was so screwed by the room that the system just didn’t get it together without absurd volume, most of which was lost in cancellations and such. Almost every question asked about speakers the true answer is fix the room acoustics.
More power means higher speaker excursion. A speaker cone must move at the proper rate to make its designed frequency. Higher speaker excursion means louder volume, but too much speaker cone excursion means distortion because the speaker is not moving correctly to make its designed frequency. You need speaker excursion to make the sound wave; not enough juice and the speaker can’t produce the sound accurately because the amp does not have an abundance of low volume current to give it that ooomph. Ever listen to a mono amp that has a 90 pound toroidal transformer backed by 4 or 6 soda can sized capacitors to “charge” the music compared to say a SET bottle amp barely making 3 W/PC? That monster amp is going to make that speaker cone move with authority at low volume because it has the current to do so, and hence the speaker will reproduce it’s designed frequencies. A SET amp, yeeee-ah, not the same especially if we’re talking low sensitivity speakers, meaning say 85 dB/W or so.
Loudspeakers don't need a certain volume level. Amplifiers need a certain loudness function. When I choose a volume setting it's mostly about what is suitable against my surroundings and what I do. Then NEXT I want the sound to be optimum...and at low volumes in the evening with people sleeping that means I need loudness function enabled.
Wow thank you so much for the insight! I recently went to see mortal Kombat in the theater with a friend. We were the only 2 people in the theater and I remember thinking “Man that was so loud!” Maybe it was because we were the only 2 people there? Food for thought, thanks again Paul!
Some "loudness" circuits are fairly good and some are awful. None I've tried has ever seemed to be just right. Variable controls usually help but I still don't like them.
Wagner doesn't sound realistic to me until it is playing undistorted 113 dB SPL - as measured via Radio Shack 332050 sound level meter - in my listening room.
I find that each recording needs a level adjustment to reach the point of realism to my ears. Changing the balance just a bit on some recordings can definitely improve the imaging as well.
Haha, yes nice then we also feel the music and listing levels at listening position! will be aroud 115 dB...... The dynamics are insane. But requires Al lot of power 2x 1250 watt peak my speakers are really insensitive like 84dB/watt
@@andreasmoller9798 Haha yes if I would listen to pop music at that level indeed, I would have a mayor hearing problem. I do not listen to that level, but it's capable of this level so dynamics at high level can easily be played well before getting into clip level of amplifier. Normal level of piano concert at forte could easily be 100dB....let alone peaks Or what to think about violin concert, you can't have too much power reserve, at least thats my opinion.... The amplifier then has an easy task driving the speakers
@@eDXTRe yes you must have an insane system with a lot of power, i can’t play over 90 db as i like to listen for long periods of time, and of i played louder than that i would be deaf by now, most of the time i spend around 75-80 db, some Songs i like to crank to 90 db,
@@andreasmoller9798 Its not that insane but its not common either its build using rotel michi amplifier and dynaudio speakers from audience series a82 {2 speakers per channel in parallel in d'apolito setup} .... I also need to watch out for listening too loud too long like 90 dB or more. Its not good for the ears, but the system is making 'loud' music not experiencing as loud..... May be because the speakers have very little to no Compression. My other set speakers(old IMF ALS40 II) sound also great for sure If you take into account these speakers are 40-50 years old? but will compress when play loud and seems easily very loud
During their heyday, the average loudness level in a Who concert clocks at a little over 140 dB SPL in the first four rows. And they achieve these with various amp arrays collectvely totalling to 40,000 watts.
