DO NOT DO THIS! | Battle Mistakes! | Ruling on Battles | March of the Machine | MTG 

Battles cant battle? Flavor fail, but I understand.

Definitely an interesting interaction and something to consider with your meta!

It is a limited mechanic at best. You are giving your opponent free life points. Tekuthal can eat the counters though.

Tekathul can only eat counters off creatures, artifacts, and planeswalkers. Enchantments, lands, and battles are off-diet.

For proliferate to work don't you have to have control of the permanent? I would think that because your opponent doesn't actually control the battle they wouldn't be able to proliferate the defense points on it.

Etb effects run the battle for them elesh from phrexia can double etb on battles

Amazing

Also, not enough artifacts there. I don't pretend amounts like Mirrodin, but at least __some__ artifacts

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

No, the transform is a triggered effect that happens when the battle has the last defense counter removed from it. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.” Meaning just destroying it does nothing.

Battle - Royale Everybody attacks it, player who defeats it gets a Triggered Ability

Does solemnity cause the battle to immediately be defeated? Edit: Solemnity never mentioned battles so it's not affected unless it enters as one of the card types it mentioned (mycosynth lattice or enchanted evening). In that case, does it enter and then gets immediately defeated?

Tokens can now actually transform thanks to a rules update for Incubators, but token copies of battles are screwed regardless because battles exile themselves first, so the moment the token copy runs out of counters, it exiles itself and ceases to exist.

@@TheAverageGuyTAG that's what I thought but at least you get the etb

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

@@LadyTsunade777makes no sense. What you said would mean that getting the battle a zero counters wouldn’t turn it into a monster.

@@sweetbabyrayso5262 Yes, exactly. If you animate a battle (meaning you find a way to make the front side of the battle into a creature on the battlefield) and then deal lethal damage to it (meaning you deal as mush or more damage to it than it has toughness), then the battle will die as a state-based action even if you also reduced it to 0 defense counters, and it will go to the graveyard and will not exile itself to cast the back side. Battles have an inherent triggered ability "When the last defense counter is removed, exile this, then cast it transformed." That ability will trigger if the front is a creature and is dealt enough damage to remove the remaining defense counters, but if that damage also happens to be lethal damage to it, it will trigger the inherent ability, but it will die due to lethal damage when checking state-based actions (which happens before and after every item in the stack), so it will no longer be on the battlefield and the trigger ability will fizzle. Assuming you've got a yu-gi-oh mindset since you used "monster", let me clarify the main difference between MtG's stack and Yu-Gi-Oh's chain: in yu-gi-oh as a chain resolves nothing else can be added to it and the field state doesn't change much (ex. resolving cards stay on the field until the whole chain ends), but in MtG the stack is dynamic and players can add things to it at any time, even if it partially resolves they can then add more, and said state-based actions (such as creatures dying, the Legend rule, and more) are checked and applied before and after each item in the stack resolves.

@@LadyTsunade777 do we have any confirmation on how they death effect works? Cause if it works how you are saying then battle cards would be the worst cards in the game cause if you just dealt more dmg than the counters on the card then card would be destroyed. Not to mention proliferate making it almost impossible to even turn the battle into the creature. And btw I don’t play yugioh

@@sweetbabyrayso5262 Dealing damage to a battle that is NOT a creature removes the counters normally and makes it exile itself to cast the back when it hits 0 counters as normal. OP here was talking about animating a battle (turning it into a creature) and then casting Blasphemous Act. I was explaining how damage to an _animated_ battle works.

Edited my comment after checking. I think according this rule: "If a battle’s defense is 0 and it isn’t the source of an ability which has triggered but not yet left the stack, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. (This is a state-based action.)" and this rule "Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”" The copy would simply go to the graveyard.

As far as I can tell, yes, because you're not simply sacrificing it or some other graveyard shenanigans to put it into the graveyard. The reason why is that removing the Defense counters is the only way to trigger the transformation ability, which merely putting a Battle into a graveyard won't trigger the transformation triggered ability. At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

@@isaiahwelch8066 thanks :)

If a battle becomes a creature and still is counted as a battle, it cannot participate in combat at all. If it loses the battle type, then the ability that causes defense counters to be removed is gone anyways so they wouldn't be removed by damage since that isn't an intrinsic property of the defense counters.

It would, but only for battles with permanent cards on the backs. Also, there's not a lot of forced transformation effects anyway. Moonmist is really the only way, and that'd require animating a battle and making it have the Human type. Incubator transformers would further require creating token copies of the battle, in addition to the animating and creature type changing.

This is most likely correct. Not sure if there are rules for re-choosing the defending player but it doesn't seem like a defending player is necessary.

​@@X20Adam There is a rule for re-designation at 310.10, which means that flipping it back will cause the player to pick a new protector, or toss it due to state-based actions if a player somehow can't be designated.

Basically, any time a battle doesn't have a Protector (and it's not being attacked), the owner has to immediately pick someone else. Battles don't simply choose as an etb, it seems.

@@DeadlyLight101 ah that is cool. next question, with the changes to transforming for tokens, if i would make a token of a battle with Lithoform engine, would i also be able to cast the 'backside' of that token battle? since we can now transform our daybound werewolf tokens for example. what about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy or other flipwalkers, they exile and return transformed now, since the token only ceases to exist when state based actions are checked correct?

@@tymenvanessen3119 Well the Battles exile themselves, so token battles cannot be transformed via their own ability. They'll just exile themselves and poof. I believe the specific reason day/nightbound tokens can transform is because they specifically don't change zones to do so, but I may be wrong.

They literally don't. The battle only is considered defeated when the last counter is removed from the battle. And it's only on etb that they get the defense counters.

They are not counted as 2 types in the graveyard. In the graveyard they are only counted as the front face of the card, same as every other double faced card.

@@fallendeus5641 I see, same goes for in the deck too then I assume... My second question.

@@TimboFromLimbo yup. The back side is ignored in the deck as well.

Yes

Technically, Battle isn't a keyword.

@Gideon Ransom I should have said keywords/mechanics. You're correct, I just failed to ask the question right. I edited it for correctness. Edit - now that I think of it, battle is a card type so it's neither a mechanic or a keyword....fail

119 if you want to know @Craig Johnson

@@maskedfallen1331 wow, that's more than I would have guessed. Assuming you're being serious.

Lethal damage as a creature puts it in the graveyard before the battle trigger to exile and transform can happen, so be careful with what you fight. If a battle goes to the graveyard for any reason, it doesn't flip.

310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

Lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back. Also, damage to a creature-battle will still remove that many defense counters as well, just like damage to creature-walkers does. (and thus the reason most walkers that animate themselves either stop being walkers (Sarkhan / Luxior) or prevent damage dealt to them (Gideon))

If it's no longer a battle, it also won't lose defense counters to damage.

@@LadyTsunade777 But it wouldn't die with Darksteel Mutation, as it would be indestructible. Or are you saying when Darksteel Mutation is destroyed, it would die to the lethal damage on it before it could become a Battle again?

@@snakeman830 So, Defense counters are ONLY removed when damage happens, but not after it becomes a battle again and still has damage on it from when it was dealt damage as a creature?

@@marvinbuck5984 Defense counters are only removed IF THE CARD IS A BATTLE. It is not an intrinsic property of the counters. That is a property of the battle.

Changelings are all _creature_ types, not all _card_ types. Just like changelings aren't lands that you can tap for mana, they also aren't battles.

wtf? Why would changelings be battles?

Judge Ruling: "Attacking doesn't target. Rules violation. Game loss. Match loss. Disqualified. Permanently banned from sanctioned play. Burn your cards. Turn over your Star Chips. You're going to the Shadow Realm. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200."

You have a creature with all the rules text of everything below it. It is not a battle (because the topmost mutate creature is not a battle), so any rules regarding removing defense counters from damage are meaningless because that is intrinsically tied to the battle card type (similar to how mutating on top of a planeswalker means damage no longer removes loyalty counters).

If a battle is destroyed... nothing happens. It goes to the graveyard. Battles only trigger if when the last defense counter is removed from the battle, not when destroyed. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

No, the triggered ability only happens when the last defense counter is removed from the battle. Not when it has 0 counters. 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.”

@@fallendeus5641 This isn't super clear, honestly. Also, when it's manifested and turned face up, who is defending it? Is it pointless with 0 counters?

@@jbeeneq when its turn faced up you assign a defender. But since it isnt entering the battlefield, as it was already gave down on the battlefield: 1 the etb effect on the front side doesnt trigger. 2 it didnt recieve any defense counters. And since it doesn't have any defense counters to lose it will never trigger its defeat effect. So yes a battle with 0 defense counters is completely pointless.

@@jbeeneq also what i originally said was pretty damn clear. Sieges are only defeated and trigger when the last counter is removed. Not sure what isn't clear about that.

A blue permanent.

Lands?

Mutating over would remove the battle type permanently, so defense counters no longer get removed due to damage, nor will it exile itself to cast transformed if you remove the counters another way. If you mutate under, nothing really changes on the battle side, but when it exiles, you can't cast the mutate creature transformed because it doesn't have a second face, so it remains in exile.

I didn’t think of that. Hope WotC does something like that in the future.

Their reward for defending it is not letting them get the back side of the card which is where a lot of the value is.

No because battles have to be destroyed with damage to transform, if it gets removed in another way it just gets removed

You only get the back half of a battle if it exiled itself with its own hidden triggered ability "When the last defense counter is removed, exile this then cast it transformed." Destroying/sacrificing one any other way just puts it to the grave. Also, lethal damage to a Battle turned into a creature causes it to die due to state-based actions before it triggers to exile itself and cast the back.

@@FVLLEN_GXD To be clear, they have to have to the last defense counter removed, not necessarily with damage. Effects like Render Inert can flip it.

No... 310.11b Sieges have the intrinsic ability “When the last defense counter is removed from this permanent, exile it, then you may cast it transformed without paying its mana cost.” If they are sac'd... congrats you just sent it to the graveyard. If they are DESTROYED, then they go to the graveyard.

Several of them seem good enough for Standard. I think you're making some very false sweeping assumptions, given that several of them have ETB effects that are already fairly costed for their MV.

The big case someone pointed out to me is Invasion of Ikoria with Vampire Hexmage, which can give you a 8/8 with basically super-trample for 4 mana in modern. In fact, in general, X cost sorcery-speed spells that get a creature of MV X or less on the battlefield are pretty good, so there's that. Other than that, some are decent? Invasion of Fiora is a nice wipe for the current standard for example.

People keep saying this, but the best counterpoint are the battles that have a good rate front already. Invasion of Gobakhan letting you see your opponent's hand and take a card from it for just 1W is already pretty good, so the back just becomes an optional bonus you never really have to work towards.

@@LadyTsunade777 yep And there are several like that Like the legend/nonlegend wrath I think is pretty decent up front and the back is game ending pressure

If you mutate OVER it, it is no longer a battle so not sure what you are trying to accomplish.

That doesn’t affect Battles or Planeswalkers. But you can first play Enchanted Evening. Then yeah Battles would enter the battlefield and immediately be defeated.

Battles are defeated "when the last defense counter is removed." Solemnity prevents counters from being placed at all, so the last one can never be removed. The battle would just stay in play with no counters forever.

I imagine there will be commander specific battles in the future that give bonuses to whoever damages them or something.

@@DS-tv2fi I'd imagine so otherwise it's just a waste of an interesting mechanic

Yes. Counters enter the same way as loyalty counters unless wizards has said otherwise. In this case whoever controls vorinclex is at a disadvantage with battles.

@@9thebigcool yikes that’s what I thought. I guess the benefit is still that you should have plenty of counters on your guys to take out your doubled life counter battles

what a messy design