Melee online do matter : - iBDW , Mang0 , Zain , and N0ne are the ones who got the most benefit from Slippi, having a good connection and practice all day without travelling cross country - A lot of players who can't travel, now have a shot. Examples like Azel who can only travel to Genesis due to him been from Norcal, now can play with players like Zain - Though, this is unfair for players outside the USA/NA, players like Leffen and Amsa don;t have a chance to participate to this online tourneys - The main problem that I see for future melee events is the seeding of non NA players, what seeding would they be given?
The other problem with counting online results is that you would have to completely ignore people who don't want to enter online events such as Hax$, Fiction, MikeHaze, and bunch of others and that wouldn't really be fair considering that some people just want to play melee on a good ol CRT in legitimate tournaments and that's it.
@@222daew7 this isn't like old netplay though. Old school netplay tournaments were there basically for glorified practice. Many techniques couldn't be utilized because of input delay, etc. Rollback 2 frames has completley abolished the old "online sucks" mentality. The players who are cloaking themselves in the dogma of the online sucks mentality are now actually getting left behind. It should count for something, but not change official LAN rankings. But i guarantee the next season of LAN will be a vastly different landscape in terms of the top 50.
@@Skapes11238 Well yes but it just wouldn't be fair for people outside of North America because they can't participate in these netplay tournaments even if they wanted to. For instance, Leffen could've been the best player this year but the possibility of that happening was robbed from him due to the coronavirus pandemic and all the travel bans that were put in place. Same thing with aMSa, Trif, Professor Pro, Spud, and all the other people living outside North America. It just wouldn't be fair for them. That's why I can't see these online tournaments as totally legitimate if you know what I mean.
Love this vid. I keep reading comments from hbox fans that keep saying, “he’s not trying at all. He is focusing on ultimate right now” That’s good for him, but he still needs to face the consequences of not practicing for 6 months. The fact that it’s online doesn’t mean that his set with wizzy doesn’t count. Especially because they play on like 2 ping or something lol
I agree. I still like Hbox but when I say "he's playing too much ultimate" I mean he's not taking melee seriously enough and deserves whatever happens as a result. If he loses because of infrequent practice that was what he deserved. You can't play at your peak if you're not practicing, same thing applies to every competition.
Something as simple as saying "I have trouble getting into online play" is a fair and often true statement. The pivotal question is if the statement is being used to discredit the victorious player, or if its merely used as a way of expressing discontentment with your own performance. IE, "I need to find a way to get motivated" vs. "good luck trying that sh*t when I'm at my best." Determining the intent of such a statement is often going to come down to personal biases and thus the twitter discussions get very tiresome. Whatever Hbox's intent, he's going to be read as Jonning and trying to discredit whoever beat him. Ultimately I think that its better for the scene if top players who seem to play worse online (hbox, axe, hax, fiction) continue to play online even if they struggle with motivation and even if they're going to perform worse than their peak performance. Losing a longtime top ten or top thirty player is bad for the scene as a whole. The healthiest attitude is to treat it as a different format of the same game. People would perform differently if we played 3-stock melee with a 2-minute timer and it would still be a competitive format.
You addressed the main issues, provided solutions, and/or argued why some things don't matter as much in sportsmanlike competitions. Well articulated, and great content as always!
I went and got a CRT monitor for free! Pair that with a GTX 970 analog output and i am having a great online experience! The display is at 120hz, I think I can go higher, but am just going off what I read on smashboards.
Well said. Thanks for sharing. Looking forward to more of these in the future. You lay out your thoughts very clearly which is something I wish more people did.
I use a CRT TV with slippi sometimes. I got a high fps camera to measure console+CRT delay and I found I need to actually ADD extra delay to make it comparable. I use the old netplay window to add 1/4 frame fractions. My 144hz monitor needs 6 fractions or 1 and 1/2 frames of extra delay and the CRT needs just 2 fractions or 1/2 a frame. I'm not a pro or anything but I love getting this stuff right and it feels fantastic when the connection is consistent. I do wonder how much faster some opponents are reacting due to their faster setups sometimes but I think it's worth it.
I think that online events right now should still matter, but be valued less. Not because of any differences in gameplay or environment, but just because the average skill level is lower right now. I agree that if players don’t enjoy online they shouldn’t compete, but that still means they aren’t competing. If a bunch of top players that aren’t motivated to compete at 100% aren’t competing, on top of the players that live too far away, then those tournaments won’t be as important as ones where everyone is present. I think it would make sense to treat these events as B tiers or something instead of S. Online should be considered a legitimate form of play, and people will probably take things more seriously in the future. But I can’t honestly say that the tourneys happening right now should be weighted as heavily as the majors from before covid.
I completely disagree with the average skill level being lower right now. People are able to play melee even more now. Go watch Mango's streaming comments responding to his beef with Armada right now. People are getting way better way faster, because they can simply play more melee. Edit: this is not meant to be read in an angry tone. Sorry if I sounded angry.
@@minizimi3790 I think that the skill level *can* be higher because of online, it’s just not atm. Or rather it’s not at the very top level. Its undeniable that tons of top 100 players have been able to get much, much better because of slippi online. But I don’t think I can say the same about the top 10. A lot of players are still trying to figure out how to be motivated online, and aren’t playing as well as they could. As good as Azel is I don’t think he’d have beaten HBox if offline was still happening. It’s still pretty early since tourneys have really started happening again, so I’m sure people will figure it out soon. But just right now it seems like people aren’t playing as well as they could.
Having my dogs running around at all, including shutting my the door cuz they’ll while. Is a huge distraction that I’m pretty sure is worse than the crowd.
@@Starwing30 Ok, but my point is kind of that this stuff is a thing that happens, but not to the majority of people. It wasn't "the most common example is abusive family or annoying little brother" lol
@@Radarssbm (sorry for crazy late response, i have reply notifications turned off and check my comments about once a month) that's a contextual fallacy, you're using a part of my statement and comparing it with what you said to deny it's actual meaning. because while it is true you where just using an example, you made that claim as an example towards most people not having in home distraction, which is factually wrong. there are a plethora of things that can distract people while playing online games (tournaments even). have you heard of neighbors (noisy, nosy, etc.), deliveries, weather (this one specifically, cuz online now means people can be affected by things that others aren't, and usually its easy to forget weather when surrounded or in a larger building), needy animals of any kind, power outages (black or brown outs if you even know the difference and both of which are more common in homes than businesses and convention buildings because of electrical needs) and those are just the tip of the iceberg. shit happens all over the place and most of it doesn't happen near as often because everyone is in a localized place, meaning that in that place, the only real distraction to competitors is usually the people around you (ie: cheering/booing). when the people get spread out, individual distractions become MUCH more common, you cant just say that "it's not a majority of people" when you're not laying out all the factors and stats. once again, i also believe that it's not that big of an issue, I think that unless you're constantly in situations where people are cheering or booing you, the crowd is worse (see hungrybox crab). But, the way you said it makes it sound like a non-issue which doesn't happen to that many players, which it definitely isn't as most people who play melee fall into the age category where most of them dont have that much money and are probably living in an apartment or with family (source: www.espn.com/esports/story/_/id/20733853/the-average-age-esports-versus-nfl-nba-mlb-nhl and www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/average-net-worth-by-age) which can mean any number of random things happening to ruin their concentration. edit was for spacing and grammar
@@Starwing30 no...my point was that most people don’t have intense in-home distraction to the degree that I stated. Some people may have their mom walk in while they’re playing, but only certain people are going to have their mom walk in and start verbally abusing them. Dealing with distractions is part of playing and I do believe that most people experience similar levels of distractions to the kinds of distractions you experience in tournament, and many experience even less. I think you could have written a much more concise comment lol
One way to increase the legitimacy of online play is to increase set length to best of 7. Having longer sets will favor the better player, since upsets will be rarer (a good thing imho, if we want to truly see who the best is). It will also counterbalance any random lag issues, since those issues will be be more widely distributed over the set.
They really should because at an event it's much more limited because people have to have the resources to keep that event running. But online the costs are much less. There would be no reason to not even have matches take place on a schedule rather than just one event.
I would like to see a video on crt vs montitors. Hopefully you can help me understand why anyone will want or need to get a 144hz monitor for a 60fps game just to reduce lag on the internet or your part. This makes me wonder since most likely than not a big name or someone who wants to get into competitive tourneys would try to get the same monitor that they would see at those events; usually are the 60hz least lag asus or benq.
Kamui Medina instead of asking for a video, why not check my catalogue of existing videos lol? I already have a video explaining why a 60fps game is affected by a 144hz monitor. Check out my “advanced netplay tutorial” to understand why it does actually make a difference and that you’re misunderstanding how input lag works!
@@Radarssbm Thanks for the quick response. I got the chance to watch the video you suggested before your reply. I see what you mean and also a small handful of people who cover the general discussion on monitors would lead me to suggest that it it does make a difference. Now I am left to wonder if a 240hz monitor gives me similar results or even better: since the screen is being refreshed about 4x the speed of a standard 60hz. To clarify Input lag how I see it is and has been described so far: is the difference in when you press a button to when it shows up on screen.
@@GONZA10X Objectively speaking, there are differences in input lag between 60hz, 120hz(144hz is similar enough) and 240hz. Those differences are: 60 = 0.5 frames of input lag 120 = true to CRT lag 240 = 0.25 frames faster than a CRT We have ways to measure this, so it's not a matter of an opinion! So to answer your question, a 240hz monitor would be less laggy, yes. As for whether or not that's "better" is debatable. Being faster than CRT might be a detriment rather than a gain? But on the other hand, if you switched to 3frame delay to play people further away, you'd only have to deal with 0.75 frames of delay with a 240hz monitor, which is nice. So there are definitely some benefits.
@@Radarssbm The point you are bringing up with monitors is that you want it to be as close to a local crt experience as possible. So I understand where you are coming from, and thanks for the extra info. It will help more people than just me I have only seen 2 ways to get a measure of input lag, both are crude. 1st being high speed camera to record when a button is pressed and when the screen displays it. 2nd is a lag tester; a device that plugs into the monitor then sends signal and reads how much lag there was from sent.
Great video, I agree with most of what you said. However, I think it's acceptable to enter a tournament without taking it too seriously, but like you said, it should affect rankings/you should accept the consequences of that decision. Rankings are one thing that the community does have control over, and I believe the ability to enter a competitive mindset is one factor we should definitely account for. But I would be against pushing ppl out from participating if they approached the game with a bad attitude. I'd criticize it, but if a pro wants to goof off in tournament I think it's their right to.
It definitely is their right, and there's a separate convo I had outside of the video about the connection to "having fun at locals" and "having fun with online tourneys." I think there's a very legitimate argument that if a player wants to enter a tourney and not have it be high-stakes, they should. I don't think that's particularly compelling for something like the Slippi Champions league, but in general I think it's a bad thing that players who enter locals have a lot to lose and little to gain.
@@Radarssbm definitely, it should be proportional. I think it's a very good thing to be pushing for online tourneys to be seen as legitimate and to speak out against writing them off without doing our utmost to see how far we can push the legitimacy of these tourneys.
An online ranking could be cool but should definitly be distinct from offline, only use results from events that used rollback and be specified as NA only.
Isn't wasapi audio still 3f or so slower than console? Wouldn't that make things like audio reactions still legitimate complaints (even if I don't think it matters that much)?
Alex Schaff pretty sure it’s 2 frames slower than CRT, but 5 frames slower without WASAPI. I get this number because at 0 buffer, WASAPI audio is basically equal to CRT (compared to regular backend which I am positive is 3 frames slower). So presumably the buffer in the game affects audio (can’t see why it wouldn’t) and so audio is 2 frames slower even with wasapi, as the buffer is set to 2f by default. 2 frames is actually still a big deal, and it’s completely legit for people to complain. That’s absolutely enough to make/break a reaction. But my point is that many players are voluntarily choosing not to improve the audio lag by 3 frames, by switching to WASAPI, and then still complain about audio lag in general. To those players, I can’t see how it can simultaneously be a big deal, while also choosing not to improve it by a TON. 3 frames is an even bigger deal, so if a player really does care so much about it, why aren’t they using WASAPI?
Alex Schaff I wonder that too! If they could do it with the actual gameplay (where the gameplay is faster but offset by buffer) you kinda have to assume it’s possible right? I can ask fizzi sometime
@@Radarssbm right, you have to assume that you could do it. They decoupled the game logic from the render for rollback, so you gotta think that with enough work, you could do the same for audio. Some day ┐( ˘_˘)┌
You said you had an explanation / guide on how to get both other sound sources and wasapi to work. Could you link me to that / tell me which video that is `?
MrSchnitzel19 it’s linked in the video description and linked within the video itself in the top right when I mention it. It’s my “advanced netplay guide”
@@Radarssbm I thought it might be that one and had already watched it before commenting but couldn't find the part where you explained how to get both wasapi and other audio to work.
The results matter but not as much as irl results. Can you say if Zain beats HB for the next 6 months on rollback zain stops HB'S 4peat and should be considered best in the world? Most people would not see that as legit.
I agree that we should weigh lan events higher but we also have to balance that with more recent events. Like Radar said, if our next event is 2022 do we seed based on 2019 and early 2020, or 2021 online events? Seeding based on stuff that happened 2 years ago wouldn't make sense
It's comparable. Then lists laundry list of problems that make it not equal if you don't have the ideal setup. Not to mention the environmental problems. You have people holed up in their houses all day. You have mental health experts talking about how it effects the country. You have people hyping up the online scene to keep people invested or melee dies. If they all felt like melee sucks and that everyone starts leaving it's going to be terrible for melee. It's the best we got but it's truly not comparable it's like apples and oranges. If people kept hosting major tournaments post covid it would hurt the integrity of melee.
D W not everyone found the content boring, but as for the visuals...that’s kind of the point? I say in the beginning that the format is “more like a podcast” so visuals are obviously not the priority. The reason I made a video like this is so I could quickly get out my thoughts on this topic. My typical video takes anywhere from 20-80 hours to write/record/edit. If I spent extra hours developing the visuals, it defeats that purpose of doing content that I can produce more quickly. You’re more than welcome to not watch, but if your point is “the visuals are bad for content that is primarily driven by audio” I’m not sure what to tell you lol. I’ll still make regular videos too, so if you don’t like this format you can just ignore it (Y)
@@Radarssbm it is a waste of time responding to youtube comments like this, just move on. this guy is probably 10-13, it not even worth taking a second out of your day to even type anything out. i think that this is something you will learn as you grow on youtube
@@Zamiell I get what he's saying. It's more like a business/school presentation. It's very structured and makes sense but it's very bland. There's always room for improvement. Even for a presentation there are some no no's committed. Slides are better if they have concise bullets rather than walls of text. By the time a slide ends it's literally a wall of text. It's good to find ways to innovate instead of making excuses how the quality is justified. This formating for the videos can definitely be improved. Not everyone is going to be invested enough in wanting to type out a list of constructive criticism. A lot of people are just going to speak their mind. It's still feedback. This is way too formal for even a podcast.
