That's why people need a therapist in their team if they are serious competitors. When your whole life is driven by a purpose and then you lost that purpose, it's possible to collapse inside.
Great conversation, guys. This kind of question, also applied to scientists and politicians &c, has interested me for a long time. Good to have your take on the chess world. Thanks!
29:10 They weren't trying to bring Morphy out. Morphy was already dead. In fact, the match was organized after his death _precisely because_ the world's best player wasn't in question before then.
LOVE the topic. 100% with David over Jesse on Magnus's choice not to play. If this is a death match and an insane format. Change the format. We need less broken WC's and a more realistic challenge. Also the soviet WC players did not not talk publicly, no info does not mean they are sane... Finally Tal had health and drug issues and burned out like an exploding star. He did not make the list... Mental health and physical health needs to be central to training. Add these to the dojo study plans.
I think it's sad that creating immortal works of art isn't a motivation to continue. maybe it's the ego and selfishness that's at the root of the crazy.
Kostya: "... and no judgment, we're all doing chess here full time so we're all... ... in this together." I think he wanted to say crazy. 🙂 Chess history is fascinating and I could have listened for another hour. Really enjoyed the episode.
I am not, and never will be, a chess master of any level. So, I take comfort in knowing that chess will not drive me insane. I do have some concern about my fascination with trying to make the French defense work despite knowing that Caro-Kann is better.
Ding carries the stigma of being an accidental champion. Everyone knows that Magnus is the best player in the world. Karpov dealt with that after being awarded the title when Fischer abdicated.
47:57 I'd like Kramnik to answer this question: "what do you think your statistics rating is?". Not that anyone can pin him down to a concrete answer on any question.
When I observe what's happened to Kramnik as well as Ding, I can't help but wonder whether it's the result (partial or otherwise) of something that we've recently seen across all other areas of life, including other professional sports: PASC. Tarjei Svensen's chess24 article titled Ding Liren: "I need to calm down a bit!" might offer a clue in regard to this. It's not something most chess players (or people in general for that matter) want to think about anymore, and so the risk remains hidden and ignored. Frankly, I don't believe GM David Smerdon's December 2022 on cognitive performance did the chess world any favours either since it didn't consider the longer term effects of ignoring the unmentionable elephant in the room.
Interesting point about Soviet and Russian players before and after Perestroika. I suppose in the Soviet era top players were part of a culture in which chess was respected and the state devoted serious resources to the game, whereas in the US Grandmasters were sometimes homeless and obsession with the game regarded as pathological, aberrent. I think Jesse is right to mention Kasparov, whose eccentricity is often underplayed. Carlsen stepping away because the matches are too gruelling is surely proof of sanity though.
For Ding I guess it is the Havanna syndrom. I would not play a WC match agains a russian. The risk of getting poisoned is simply to high. As luck has it, I am not a candidate for a WC match ;-)
You guys said that all the Societ Champions didnt go crazy, but I think you could make a case for Tal. He's a little different though, since I think he was just naturally a weird guy and that has nothing to do with the World Championship.
The stresses of the crown and the associated risks to one's mental health are the principal reasons why I myself have never been willing to participate in a world championship match, despite the temptation for me to play.
Seems obvious that the problem is that chess is a seductive abstraction that has little to do with real life. To be great involves addiction, which can shut out huge areas of life and its possibilities equally as valuable and all too human. This is particularly a problem if chess is the only thing you're good at. The sane great players had other interests. Lasker (philosopher and mathematician) and Capablanca (diplomat). The Soviet School emphasized other pursuits that required a wider education: electrical engineering, opera, piano. They center you in a way that chess doesn't. I once talked to Kasparov about politics. My sense is that while he's interesting, he knows less than he think he does. Perhaps Kramnik is another example. I personally know of two chess tragedies: one death, one jail. Magnus gave a lecture at either Oxford or Cambridge. He was humble, but in an interesting way. Unlike Kasparov who was spreading "Truth." Magnus also had a good and close family. You also have to wonder if Jesse isn't the one who's broken. Why isn't he projecting his own issues, goals and insecurities? Magnus said recently that he plays chess for fun. He doesn't play it a la Freud and Fine to kill his father. He already has his reputation. Music is one of the other prodigy activities along with chess and math. I knew a great mathematician, a chess master in his youth. He played games until the day he died, but he switched to Go. He found it more interesting. I once asked him to help me with differential equations. He called the subject cookbook stuff, treating it with contempt. Then there's Pablo Casals. Asked why he continued to practice into his 90s he said, because I think I'm getting better. My sense is that music is more life-affirming. It's not about beating other people, it's about self-improvement and exploring an infinite mystery. Happiness is sometimes defined as a worthwhile goal with a pleasant enjoyable journey. Mastering an instrument is also a struggle. But the wins and losses are daily and endless.
It is my hypothesis that people with high-level IQ working in stressful situation have a higher percentage chance of cracking. Hollywood has often used this as a story ark for many characters. It doesn’t matter if it’s Chess, physics, etc. I think the combination of high genius, IQ level and high intensity stress for long period time can be detrimental
Not really. Chess storytellers like to create this lore about how this game drives you nuts but if you look closely most of the players who lost it had other shit happening in their lives. Chess wasn't the main reason they went crazy. Yes top level chess players are under a lot of stress which makes them fly off the handle at times but if that makes you crazy then half the world is probably crazy.
Everyone loved Tal, and he was a genius, but he certainly lived with mad abandon: rivers of alcohol, kilos of drugs, warehouses full of cigarettes, and partying until dawn!
Yeah, but it's clear that the wc match has really affected him. He might be feeling that he is not the legitimate champion and he got lucky. I think he is just really low on confidence and that's affecting his play.
Ding will pass the title to Wei Yi and he gonna win over Gukesh ... than Magnus will come back because he won't have to face the Petroff ... and i would like to have your opinions about Chucky ... does he lost his mind before beeing champ ?
Diego Maradona became a great football player because he was addicted to the game. After his sports career he found new addiction with cocaine and politics. He was never very good at playing normal.
The topic of this episode was very rude and shameful. The level of these three guys was far from the level of world champions, but they were talking about the possible problems of world champions. Maybe this was the reason for the lack of education of these three guys.
So, Morphy was "trans", but I guess we can no longer draw an obvious connection between that behavior (dressing in his mom's clothing, etc.) and the state of his mental health. William Hartston's quote always comes to mind when this topic is discussed. He said, "chess doesn't drive people crazy; it keeps crazy people sane." Maybe. And Martin Amis' take about chess being beautiful but also somehow unclean also rings true.
