Layers of political jokes technically it can be anywhere in the future. Also pre hartnell doesn’t count as the Doctor. So it can be anything after the second Tennant until he dies
Well I'll pose a theory that Jodi Whittaker's doctor is the remains once the valeyard leaves the doctor. Edit:Hmm. A bunch of things could make sense if you stitch a bunch of stuff together just to make the 13th doctor and the valeyard work. I mean remember when the 12th doctor got a slug that put him into dreams during the one Christmas special. How exactly did that happen considering 12 had earlier in his rein was able to pretty much negate/ reverse a sleep inducing patch? If we really go and think about it. The valeyard in a similar manner to the doctor colludeded with his past self/ part of him still in the doctor with his now physical self to break out and then become physical. The valeyard could have put 12ve in some sort of coma during his regeneration where his mind couldn't be stable enough to figure it all out. Thus Jodie's entire run not only being in the doctor's head but an intentional facade by the valeyard inorder to properly take the regeneration energy from them. I bet it takes time and it's possible it was the valeyard that helped the timelords connect back into the universe through Time and the earlier mentioned collusion. Part of the deal would be the splitting of the doctor's new regeneration energy with his future time being secured in this paradoxical manner.
the parasite scratched the surface of that place in the doctors mind but the real valeyard would be more devious and ruthless than even the master, its every bit of evil thoughtt in the doctor which might be bottomless since hes billions of years old now
Three alternatives: There's a non-timelord-timelord clone of the doctor stuck in an alternate universe. The clone of the 10th doctor that stayed with Rose. The Valeyard could be him, after something tragic happens to Rose and he's forced to reclaim his regeneration capability/tardis/title in order to 'set things right'. Alternatively, he could be the clone's future son trying to take revenge on his 'uncle' for abandoning rose and clone. Alternatively, there's someone everyone forgets. Someone very important. Very powerful. A rogue timelord with no actual training in how to be responsible with their powers or biology. The Doctor's Clone-daughter, the fast-grown soldier girl with two hearts who, after regenerating from death, stole a rocket ship and disappeared to galavant across the cosmos.
In an ironic twist, the Supreme Intelligence becomes benevolent during the Valeyard's time stream and sabotages any of Valeyard's manifestation as a victory over the Doctor.
There is still the possibility that the doctors timestream on trenzalore is still the doctors future, most likely not but if it is and the valeyard is a future incarnation of the doctor he'd actually be helping the doctor by sabotaging the valeyard but also be sabotaging the doctor, quite odd but I believe the doctors death and timestream on trenzlore was rewritten when he got more regenerations and the valeyard isn't a future incarnation of the doctor rather some experiment which went very wrong
Between The Doctors 12th and final incarnation. Has a new regeneration cycle so The Valeyard could be anywhere between Smith and however many other incarnations we get in the future.
If we think about aligning the Master's comments with the actual regenerations, I think the Valeyard would have to align with the 10th Doctor abandoning regeneration to create the Meta-Crisis. 10 is actually number 11 after all, so his regeneration is the 11th he has, putting the Meta-Crisis as his spent 12th incarnation. Meta-Crisis is thus somewhere between the 12th and 13th incarnation, which matches up nicely with the Master's description fo the Valeyard. On top of that, the Meta Crisis is said to be more darkly tumultuous than the actual Doctor, possibly due to his also containing human genetics as well as his being born directly into a battle against the Daleks. We know he's got Donna's impulsiveness which combines with the 10th's passionate nature to produce a quite forward sort of fellow as shown by his interaction with Rose compared to the 10th's. We also know he perhaps has a lesser lifespan than the Doctor as well, which could add to his potential paranoia over death. Here's my guess: Meta Crisis experiences some intense emotional event which triggers his downward spiral into his own form of Time Lord Victorious (possibly losing Rose, since that would probably elicit the strongest reaction from him). In a bid to save Rose he needs to do some major alterations to the timeline (same as #12 would have done in trying to save Clara as the Hybrid). For whatever reason, the first thing he needs to do is get a new set of regenerations, and so he finishes growing his TARDIS coral from #10 (in a deleted but still implied scene) and forces it to pilot its way into N-Space Gallifrey (possibly killing it on the way like #10 almost did on accident, but in his intensity of emotion Meta-Crisis is hardly likely to care). He gets there and assumes the Valeyard title and tries to take the regenerations from the Doctor, as a way of avenging himself against the one who in his mind "abandoned" Rose and himself, and to gain the necessary regenerations to return to his world and save Rose. The rest of his story happens the way it does in the original show. Now this all goes off of one major assumption: that the Valeyard events still happen in the timeline's current state. Time has undergone quite a massive wave of rewrites ever since the Sixth Doctor's tenure, what with a freaking Time War completely butchering it as well as the Church of the Silence accidentally triggering its collapse and the 11th restarting it. So much has happened to the timeline that it's possible the events of the Sixth Doctor versus the Valeyard didn't quite happen that way; after all, the Time Lords were erased from (or at least made inaccessible to) the rest of reality, so who knows how history played out in the version of events we observe in NuWho. Perhaps it didn't really happen at all. So where does that leave us with the Valeyard? Well there's one way it all still manages to make sense, though it is a cop-out: "all of the possible theories of the Valeyard are correct"! The Intelligence hints that the title will still be attributed to the Doctor anyway, even if the Time War caused Gallifrey and the Time Lords to be locked out of reality (though even this event happens in a version of the N-Space Timeline that was overwritten when the Time Lords abruptly gave #11 an extra set of regenerations). For now the Valeyard perhaps merely remains without form; an idea or concept of evil which the Doctor constantly wrestles with. It arose briefly in one version of the N-Space Timeline to face off against the Sixth Doctor, yes, but that was only one manifestation of the concept. It almost arose in #10's Time Lord Victorious, and would most likely have been the outcome of #10's continued evolution had he not been snapped out of it (I theorize that by repositioning himself in his mind relative to the rest of the universe as truly a "Lord" rather than a "Doctor", he risks completely rewriting his morality and becoming the Valeyard one day). It was hinted at in the form of the Dream Lord against the 11th when psychic pollen picked up his dark inclinations of self-hatred and perhaps unconscious occasional disdain for others. Most recently it was almost manifest again, this time as the Hybrid, when #12 threatened to severely rewrite the timeline to save Clara, temporarily casting aside his morality once more. So this is a bit of a cop-out answer, but it's that the Valeyard is merely one example of all the times the Doctor struggles against the threat of his inner evil. It's possible that it happened in a version of N-Space Time pre-Time War, so perhaps that particular iteration of the Doctor's darkness will never arise ever again, but the threat of his inner bitterness and hatred is always present.
Very well thought out speculation, nicely done. And I do agree with you on the regeneration count and your last point of all the theories being true. After all, if the Master's information is correct (and I am certain that it is), the Valeyard is not an aspect or persona or even an actual regeneration of the Doctor but an 'amalgamation of the darker sides' of their nature. Perhaps we're all right and wrong - the Valeyard isn't the TLV, or the Dream Lord, or 12 at the end of S9, or the MetaCrisis after losing Rose (theory, not fact!!!) but a 'distillation' of their every thought. However, we also have to consider the events of the Big Finish audio story 'Trial of the Valeyard' where (sorry for spoilers, but it's kind of in the name) the Valyerad is the one in the dock of the same courtroom, with the same Inquisitor (Darkel) but with the Doctor as his defence counsellor. We learn that the Valeyard was, essentially, created through the experimentation of the Doctor's 13th incarnation to surpass the limits of Gallifreyan symbiotic nuclei (the limit of 12 regenerations). However, what with the Time War completely altering Gallifrey to such an extent that their entire species changed (not gonna go into this now, but think Chameleon Arch, rewriting their own biology, and what the Doctor told Wilf about the Time Lords in EOT Part 2), the new regeneration cycle, and the absolute pig's breakfast of the Timeless Child, the BF storyline may have become defunct (or, at least, less relevant). You're right, technically the Doctor's 12th incarnation was the Metacrisis, so the Valeyard could appear at any point now or in the future of the show. In my mind, the best way to introduce the Valeyard into the rebooted series would involve Chibnall leaving the show (thank God for that), and someone like RTD coming along and getting the Time Lords, the Master and potentially even the Great Intelligence involved after some absolutely tragic event (not just losing someone, I mean something that would literally leave the Doctor a broken man/woman); perhaps, in their revenge, the dark thoughts begin siphoning off into a sentient form (i.e. the Valeyard)? Perhaps, the Doctor regenerates in a similar way to 10 creating the Metacrisis and this new form is corrupted by the Great Intelligence? Maybe, in an attempt to honour their central dogma of 'silence will fall', either the Church of the Silence or the Kovarian Chapter will try to 'synthesise' (hypothetically, this isn't as thought out as I'd hoped for) a nemesis that can rival the Doctor and do the job that River/Melody failed to do? Or, what if (to try and fix the Timeless Child trainwreck) RTD has the Doctor try to avenge themself on the Master (if he lives, which I think he does) or the Time Lords -- yes, they're all dead, but Davros was always supposed to die, but he always comes back some way or another, doesn't he? Same with the Master/Missy. It's like the good version of plot armour :) -- and something happens so that the Valeyard comes into being? (oh, and the whole Timeless Child thing is played down as an attempt by the Master/Time Lords to break the Doctor) I think that something where Gallifrey is involved would be best as the Valeyard would then have to break the Time Lock to return to pre-Time War Gallifreyan society, make the deal with the High Council and have the events of Trial play out as normal. These are merely musings (I realise I say that rather flippantly) but I think that these might be good ways to bridge the Classic-NuWho schism and (on a whim) retcon/reverse Chibnall's travesty of an era.
The Valeyard has 2 origins. the Valeyard was created during a period when the thirteenth incarnation of the Doctor was experimenting with ways to break the twelve-regeneration limit. (so presumably 11) After being sent to Gallifrey, the Time Lords realised the Valeyard was a temporal anomaly, they sent him to a Shadow House where he was urged to get revenge on the Time Lords. (Trial of the Valeyard) According to Genesta, the Valeyard was created by the Time Lords using black ops technology, possibly as a weapon. (The Brink of Death) Personally I think the second origin is true, as well as the Shadow House stuff.
Here's another way to look at it. Remember the War Doctor came about because of the last great time war with the Daleks. The War Doctor was quite effective in the war. But not to the point of turning the tide. Now the Council knows this and are even more desperate. Someone remembered the time he was put on trail. With all the tech they have they capture him from a Future incarnation between 12 and the final create the Time Lord the Valyard. This would explain why he came about and how the events played out.
I thought he was the Timeless Child's discarded First Life, perhaps the stranger or the Actual remains of the Other... I still think Brax is the Master. Time Lord's do experience other times and parallels at once Our doctor is defective like a Mark I Build with all the physical imperfections as he evolves back to his Original race... The Eternal Prisoner to protect creation from one who simply chooses, wrongly
I think the vale yard isn’t quite a regeneration, I think he’s a spirit. He constantly talked about unshackleing himself from the doctor, I think his dark nature escaped him in the large final regeneration of 11, creating the vale yard as a partial ghost like entity who can’t regenerate until he kills the doctor
@Surya Singh Yeah but that scene is deleted. So he doesn't have a Tardis. But Rose had the dimension canon maybe sometime in the future he manages to came back to our universe but then again why would he want to kill the doctor ?
@@MustafaTurgutDenizer are we forgetting how scared of death the 10th doctor was, regardless of the fact it was only a regeneration, imagine what he would do if rose died, and he couldnt come to terms with his own, basically newfound mortality, he could very well go back and try and steal the doctors regenerations, bit of makeup and that would be a very interesting story, he is also between the doctors 12th and final incarnation, at this point the doctor was fated to die on tenzalore so 11 would of been the final incarnation, the metacrisis, born after the 12th incarnation but before the final, plus tennant hast the chops to really pull it off
Matt Smith was the final incarnation from that cycle. If the Valeyard was going to appear according to the original schedule, it would have been between Tennant and Smith.
@@youpeoplearecrazy374 No, it would be between Smith and Capaldi, because the Master specifically said 'Incarnations' not 'Doctors', so the War Doctor counts in this sequence.
@@fotzegamingandmedia1840 Yes, but Tennant used two regenerations so he was the 11th and 12th. So the Valeyard should have been between Tennant 2 and Smith.
@@youpeoplearecrazy374 Does regenerating into the same person really count as an incarnation, though? By definition, an incarnation is one of a series of lifetimes that a person spends on earth. While 10 as you say did use two regenerations(which contradicts the 12 regenerations rule if what you are saying is true and not just 10 putting off the process like 12 did) then 10 still doesn't fit that description of incarnation because he is still living out that one lifetime. The War Doctor, while not making 10 the 11th doctor, by definition DOES make 10 the 11th incarnation. So by that logic, Smith is the 12th incarnation and the Valeyard may be the result of the timelords interfering in his death by presenting him with a new set of regenerations
I'm surprised no one has ever said The Eleventh Doctor himself could be The Valeyard. Here me out, he traveled 200 years alone in series 6. The Doctor didn't give a shit about rewriting time in A Christmas Carol. He believed that time can be rewritten. After he learned about his death in Let's Kill Hitler and he knows shit's got real because there are no more regenerations left. Between The God Complex and Closing he traveled alone and denied his real death. So he ran into Gallifrey and tried to steal his regenerations from The Sixth Doctor. But failed. And somehow he escaped and realized he can't prevent his death. But he found a way without altering a timeline. There are more evidences: - The Doctor became so violent in A Good Man Goes To War. - The Great Intelligence referred The Valeyard in a past tense. - The Doctor's acceptance of his death came out of nowhere. - The Dream Lord was a sign of The Eleventh Doctor is The Valeyard.
Seems a little Reaching. The great intelligence said hes the valeyard since he was speaking in the past Tense about the dead doctor. Not the 11 that was alive at the time. And it did make sense, he was getting a plan ready to fake his death as we see in the ending of season 6. And the dream lord isnt evidence, its speculation.
I think the writers unintentionally handed themselves their own saving grace by having The Master say that it was an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker hues from between his 12th and final incarnations. Final incarnation could mean any incarnation past 10's vanity regeneration. The Valeyard could still show up at any point.
My headcannon says the Valeyard is a negative watcher from a timeline where Capaldi's Doctor chose not to regenerate following the events of The Doctor Falls
There was a reference to the Valyard again with Peter Capaldi, the Xmas special where the first doctor is being shown by the Witness (glass lady) all the incarnations of the doctor. She said the valyard too, I'm almost positive.
The Master says that the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker aspects, and I wonder if it that is meant in the most literal of terms. All aspects of the Doctor's aggression, wrath, and spite made manifest. But why make such a creature? I think the Time Lords, during the earlier days of the Time War, needed a soldier, but one who was more cunning and thought outside the box compared to others. They had only two choices at the time, the Doctor or the Master, both renegades who could have the kind of strategic gift to assist them, but the notion of being indebted to the Master was just something the Time Lords couldn't allow, and the Doctor refused to fight. Thus I figure that the Time Lords tried to get the best of both - the Master's insidious intelligence, but also the Doctor's courage and moral fibre. Of course, a direct clone of the Doctor would more than likely refuse to fight, so tried to make a version without the qualms he normally has towards violence. And thus they created the Valeyard to act as strategist and soldier during the Time War, suppressing some of the Doctor's more frivolous tendencies, however what they defined as being unnecessary were traits that restrained the Doctor's true aggression. In short, when trying to create something better than both, they made something far, far worse than either. One that saw no joy in the universe, and was potentially more of an asset to destruction than salvation. Thus, they attempted to destroy it, but the Valeyard outwitted his creators, and sought to fulfil its existence by any means necessary. However, with only a half life, the Valeyard needed to take from another such that he could sustain himself - the only way of doing that was to take from the being he was taken from - the Doctor.
Interesting, so there was a hint dropped a long time ago that the Doctor could have more than twelve lives. Fancy that! I hope that the current writers keep in mind that the Valeyard ought to be on the horizon right about now.
But they said anywhere between his 11th to final incarnation. We don't know how many lives the doctor will have honestly. I know for a fact it won't be much if the writing keeps going the way its going the show would get canceled
I think it's quite possible that we've got an opening for The Valeyard if it's done right. Like what if with the 12's regen into 13 there was a split. What if Ruth thought she was a past doctor but was actually the split. Maybe we're following the true good Doctor, or we're following the darker version that becomes the Valeyard. There are possibilites there.
But the "Timelord Victorious" was nothing more than Tennant's Doctor getting cocky and then regretting it later. That doesn't mean he wants to go back in time and kill his previous self. This is the same guy who once wanted to save the Master from dying and couldn't bring himself to kill Rassilon. This is the same Doctor who once said, "I would never [use a gun]" when his own daughter was shot and dying in his hands. You think this Doctor out of any of them would ever get to the point where he'd kill someone, much less himself? If anything, the Tenth Doctor was the most moralistic, whereas the Valeyard had no morals. Furthermore, are we forgetting that at this point Gallifrey was timelocked in the time war and all the other Timelords were dead. In the Trial of a Timelord season, it is revealed that the High Council of Gallifrey asked the Valeyard to alter the Matrix and frame the Doctor, and in return he would then receive all of the Doctor's remaining regenerations. That is entirely illogical; in fact it is physically impossible because at this point in time Gallifrey was still locked away in a parallel pocket universe, so there's absolutely no way the 10th Doctor could have been the Valeyard, on top of already being the least likely candidate.
It could be the Meta-Crisis Doctor the Master said he was amalgamation of his darkest sides of his nature from between his 12th and final life. Well you add the War Doctor and 10 is now his 11th life and the regeneration that created the Meta-Crisis Doctor would be the start of his 12th life even though he didn't change and 11 was his final life until being granted a new regeneration cycle by the Time Lords. Also the Meta-Crisis Doctor did attempt to kill all the Daleks and couldn't regenerate. I'm not saying he is of course just it would fit.
"Somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation..." He got a new regeneration cycle so maybe this means the Valeyard will appear somewhere between Matt Smith's time as the Doctor and the 23th Doctor?
@@kafelkan1482 Well the Valeyard likely won't appear during Jodie's tenure as the Doctor as the BBC seems more concerned with writing episodes about political correctness than developing stories about the Doctor's evil self.
I think the point is it indicates the darkness that dwells within the Doctor's own soul. It's like the Master says in; The Ultimate Foe; *"There's some darkness in all of us Doctor, even you.". The Doctor does have morals but in his tenth incarnation he had developed something of a God complex as in he only had the right to interfere and had some kind of self-appointed higher authority. Look what he did in; The Christmas Invasion to Harriet Jones. He effectively deposes Harriet Jones who had brought Great Britain in to a golden age of prosperity and he felt he had the right to brig an end to it. Whether she was right or wrong for what she had done he still had no right to do that and took it upon himself to decide what was best for a country which he was not a citizen of. Screw democracy. The point is that the Doctor was eventually headed for a fall and it inevitably happened. His ego had finally got the better of him and by the end of; The Waters of Mars it took Adelaide Brookes suicide to realise that. The Tenth Doctor isn't the Valeyard but he displays the potential dormant evil within him that would lead to the creation of the Valeyard.
Well the whole point of the 'Timelord Victorious' is to show that as he/she regenerates, the Doctor will become worse which was what the Master had said.
Adını bilmiyorum ama türkçe yazıcam bir teorim var 9.sezonda bir melezden bahsediyorlardı yarı dalek yarı time lord bence bu sezonda masterın bildigini sandıgın herşey yalan dediği şey bu olabilir doctor ve master melez half human half timelord o sezonda gallifreyi yok edecek bu melez diyorlardı master yok etti doctor insanların iyi taraflarını master kötülüklerini almıştır ne düşünüyorsun
What about aspects of the War Doctor. That Doctor started off his time in war - maybe what he saw / experienced stays with the Doctor and will arise in a latter incarnation?
I think the Valyard is a time anomaly, he is from an alternative timeline that never happaned because the 6 Doctor seen how dark he can become and he tried to be better after that. That was the point of the whole trial arc. To face the with himself to make him revalueate how big an asshole he had become and that is why the Valyard never had borned
Theory (and Spoilers for Timeless Child arc): We've learned that the doctor had previous forgotten regenerations of an unknown number. What if the Valeyard was one of those regenerations? Just an idea. Or the Master was just lying for a bit of chaos.
I am beginning to believe The Valeyard was a possible future incarnation of The Doctor or possibly an alternate universe version of The Doctor which The Doctor was corrupted and evil.
I disagree as the eleventh doctor was meant to be the final incarnation until he was granted a new regeneration cycle. The master also stated the valeyard exists between the doctor's twelfth and final incarnation and since he has a new cycle chronologically the doctor wouldn't become valeyard this soon as the 13th doctor isn't the last incarnation.
What if the Doctor created the Valeyard during the siege of trenzalore so that someone would continue to protect it however it goes wrong and the Valeyard escapes,
Of course we are forgetting the most powerful of all characters in Doctor Who. The Guardians. A simple explanation is that the White Guardian felt he owed the Doctor something. And gave it to him unawares
I like how deluded peoe can be , when it was THE doctor David Tennant he was only making a statement of (timelord victorious) because he's a timelord and on that day as well as many other's he was victorious, hence the phrase he said (timelord victorious) . But a few years on they assumed and thought it was a hidden message for something and so only after so many believed it they then had to make an episode about it
Yaleyard is a interesting name where does it come from why the name is the question does this have a connection to the real origin of the time lords not directly connected to the Timeless Child and yet this is this other Doctor took this name a bit like the War Doctor?
@@youpeoplearecrazy374 I don't get a lot of the hate around the Timeless Child. I'm not demeaning your opinion, I just hope you can explain why it is you feel so strongly about it.
One explanation is that every time a Time Lord regenerates, the randomness of personas extracts energies that aren't like the current incarnation. From the light of another chance, a shadow is hidden and one day takes shape. It's possible that like the Watcher, there were other versions of The Doctor with enough darkness to cling to and become a separate entity.
To be fair everyone has an internal valeyard, why do you think I use it so frequently to crush people's souls? I personally am friends with the prick, 3 of my personalities are judgemental pricks.
I really and honestly prefer the Valeyard as a villain to the Master the Valeyard is a billions of times more interesting Villain than the Master an dI wish JNT had retired the Master in Planet of Fire
