Hey you lot, I've got out of my way in the last couple years acquiring the right gear here and there, the magma chassis, the digilink cable, etc. The Software, mainly TDM plugins are what's hard as all hell to find, where would I get those now.?
@@michaelbee1279 Plugin Alliance is good source. They have some older plugins in TDM format (22 plugins precisely) and all plugins up to around 2019. in 32bit ProTools10 AAX32 format.
Still use! ..Almost every day. ProTools 5.1.3 TDM MIX+7 on OS9 Pros Almost never crashes Almost never freezes Audio Latency is near zero ...even on midi & mtc 80 in x 80 out in real time 100% Paid for Zero distractions DAW Cons No Tech Support no new Plugins since 04 VSTi require syncing a modern PC running Cantabile USB 1.0 is brutal for transferring mixes Barry hit me up if you want to see it in action Via Zoom or whatever..
Time to ditch the spinning drives it is 2023! My Mix plus rig uses a Seritek PCI 4x Sata controller with 4x M.2 Evo 850 SSDs in a G4 MDD 1.33. that old rig is way faster than my new Rack Mac Pro HDX3 system, for everything except offline bounce. @@pushpull76
Yeah, me too. Still running OS9 PT 5.3.1. Curious, was checking out MacOS9Lives forums, PT HD, OS9, PT 5.3.1, PCI Core/Process seems to run all the old plugs. Any advantage (besides sheer horsepower) over MIX?
@@RubenHuizenga PT HD will not run og tdm plugins. If you could dig up a ilok with them and had the installers it would. I have a video about it in my RU-vid. Plz support Os9lives if it helped you out.
Great advice thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I still own a. protocols HD2 TDM system running Logic audio by Emagic, and access virus plug in
Great points. I’m still on a PT HD3 with c24 controller that’s 12 years old and obviously paid for. I still love it. I have all the TDM plug in bundles I need. I was debating upgrading to newer system but decided to just add an Antelope converter Pure 2 for now. I will probably jump in to newer when all the bugs are sorted out with M1..but who knows. It sounds great! Of course I have lots of great Manley/Neve preamps, compressors..and good microphones. (Which hold their value much better than computers and interfaces)! If I was starting out today with new system, then I would not go TDM, but if you already have a solid working system and it works for your needs then don’t worry about it.
Imagine buying a piece of analog gear for 15,000 and in less then 20 years it’s value for sale is around 700…that’s what pro tools HD TDM architecture has become. Crazy
anything tech / computer / software related will never hold it's value. I see your point through. I have myself started buying rack gear rather than plugins because atleast it be be worth something.
That exactly happened to me - I invested lot of money in Pro Tools HD3 in 2009. Very soon AVID discontinued everything I have and because transition to 64bit everything also became obsolete. I wish I entered the boat few years later with HDX 🤔
It depends on the workflow. HD3 Accel PCIe + 3 x 192io here. My thing is to record jazz ensembles, recording 24 to 32 channels at the same time @ 96Khz, doing 6, 8, or even 10 different headphones mixes at the same time + monitoring with absolutely ZERO latency, bugs, or anything in the way for a PERFECT session, working in a very high level with top notch musicians. And using plugins in real time. It's 2022 and I still have no idea how I could achieve this level of performance in another ecosystem (if we consider the price tag, then...). But OK, if someone's thing is to produce pop/electro, doing overdubs, programming, recording 1 thing at a time... so there's no reason to still be stuck in a old HD system.
I'm using Pro Tools 10 HD3 Accel on powerful Windows 7 PC. I have lot of analog/digital outboard gear and synths connected to 6 x fully loaded 192 interfaces, AVID Artist Mix and Control surfaces with Mojo SDI video hardware. Lot of TDM/RTAS/AAX plugins and server computer running 64bit Vepro7 for heavy cinematic Synchron and Kontakt libraries. So, yeah, still lot of happiness here. Upgrade this system to HDX and ultimate is 20K$ more less. I bet if I upgrade today, next year all will become discontinued and obsolete ;-)
Great channel, subscribed! I use an old Apogee Ensemble firewire on an old 8 core Mac Pro with Pro Tools 11. It has its limitations in terms of plugins that require an OS past Mountain Lion but for what it does, it's still blazingly fast and I find the limitations kind of inspiring, honestly. My thought is if I can't make good music on an old system, I have no business buying a new system! I use some newer outboard pieces like a Strymon Iridium for guitars, a Geddy Lee pedal for bass and Superior Drummer 2 and the guy I work with to master my stuff gives me compliments on my rough mixes so I feel must be heading in the right direction. I also feel that this helps show that getting the newest shiny thing doesn't automatically mean that you'll get great results. I recall the story of Lenny Kravitz saying he made his hit album "5" on Pro Tools v5 haha...case in point.
Just upgraded my PT HD 2 system of 12 years to a PT native on a M1 Mac mini. Opened up the largest session I ever worked on (about 170 tracks and a lot of plug-ins) and it runs smooth on the new computer with room to spare (I'd dare to say better than it run on PT 10 because of memory issues). I'm already enjoying some of the new plug-ins I was finally able to use. I don't regret waiting so long to move away from TDM, but I can truly say I'm happy I finally did it.
We use pro tools hd 3 with 3 interfaces 192 i/o and sync hd. everything goes into the soundcraft analog studio console. it sounds great and lets you release live music.
Enjoyable video, Barry. I just rebought an HD3 last week (on the cheap), since Carbon has been unusable due to the timeline alignment bugs. Sticking those cards into a Mac Pro I still have just collecting dust and there just isn't a better computer-based tracking experience on the planet. Not even in 2022. BTW, I already have Symphony I/Os that I was feeding Carbon with, so total expense was about $300 and I'm back to a great, stable tracking rig (the opposite of Carbon so far). Albeit, a very old tracking rig.
In the last 20 years I saw a lot of studio people changing studio gear, just thinking about its age. Protools/Digidesign systems are for sure old, but it doesn't means that they need to be thrown away. I'm more focusing on the"artistic side" of the question, if you are ok with the interface and you are satisfied with the production chain...well, stay there 🙂
Well I am running the latest version of pro tools with an apollo 8p. I would have no problem working with an old tdm system since I could work with limitations. My first recordings were done with a roland vs-880ex. I don't worry much about vsts since I own several hardware synths. In my case the old tdm would be a great investment if I didn't have my current set up.
Also, most people don't know that there are other software front-ends you can use over the TDM hardware if you don't care for the Pro Tools software. Older versions of MOTU's Digital Performer, Steinberg's Nuendo, and Emagic's Logic were all able to run over Digidesign TDM hardware.
My TDM HD 2 on my Mac G4 mirror was my best rig ever, miss it.. it never crashed, was extremely snappy and had no issues for the 8 years I had it.. but these computers today get slow within a week or two it feels and the bugs and drop outs r insane.. I’m on Apollos now and diving into Luna and it’s been an ok experience so far.. It’s crazy what they go for now.. a child can afford it now 🤣 but I think if u want a huge bang for buck and don’t care about anything new or coming out, pick up these older rigs plus I’m sure u can find all those tdm/rtas plugins for an extremely low price.. you need a older cpu tho.. but great video, keep it up!!
192 Analog input cards are twice the price he mentions. I have a Avid HD Native PCIe card running 4 192's 16x8x8. Works great running on my Sweetwater Creation Station 450v5. I will update when they go bad. I need all the inputs but that's a lot of coin. I agree the 192 is still a solid interface but the tech has moved a step forward recently making them a step behind. It also plays nice with other DAW's not just Protools. If you have a lot of gear and want to be able to multi-track up to 64 inputs. The HD Native PCIe card and 192's offer the most bang for the buck if you need that many inputs. my 450v5 is all one could want in a PC. I can record audio and the video of the recording with a different program watch a movie and do my taxes all at the same time. Got a deal of a lifetime on it. Saw it a pawnshop by my house. They had no idea what the value of it was. At the time it was the only used one for sale on the planet. Plus the extras hidden inside it. The lock was broken off the front so i thought it might have been stolen. I called Sweetwater and gave them the serial number and had them contact the original owner to make sure it wasn't stolen. Turns out they did have to pawn it. Sweetwater treated me like I had been the original owner. They sent all the manuals and answered all my questions.
I’m still using Pro Tools 9 HD3 with 96, 192, 96i & sync. Peripherals ProControl+ Fader Pack. I use that machine for recording/tracking/etc. I also have PT 2022 for small video edits on Daw bridge with FCP. If it’s not broken don’t fix it.. I have options but I’m torn between moving away from TDM to latest due to I/O routes and the ability to do a 5.1 conversion. When the 5.1 standards change, so will I. What I hate about the new stuff is the SUBSCRIPTIONS 😖
Excellent advice! FWIW, in that ballpark, I'd probably go with the M1 Mac Mini, an Audient ID14 MkII, get the $15 PA Mix and Master sub, and replace ProTools with Reaper
I have a ProTools HD6 system and I solve the problem with software synths by using another Mac Pro with VE Pro 6 via ethernet. It runs as a plugin on Pro Tools so audio and MIDI are sent through ethernet on the ,aster computer and the slave will have the software that will host your plugins. I believe you can have up to 32 channels(via gigabit)of audio and 48 MIDI ports(which = about 768 MIDI channels) per host computer and you can have 3 computers, one master and 2 slaves per license and you can run as many computers as you like if you buy multiple licenses. Another way to use another computer as a host, you can you use Plouge Bidule which is a stand alone software that you can host software synth and audio plugins with another computer. But I know that the time will come when I'll have to do the upgrade. I think that Avid still does the exchange program to upgrade to HDX for now.
Hello, same as you but i've been on HD Native (PCI) only since 2020. Amazing with the mac i have + Ultimate 2021.12. But still a TDM rig will be way enough to record acoustic instruments with good monitoring for musicians with at least, almost the latest audio converters available if wanted so ... why not after all.... I'm using it for rehearsals here ;) and it's always pleasant to have the opportunity to record all the tracks with real good balance because of real time plugin treatments ;) and still have 2 Magmas filled with Accel cards ! - For bigger sessions then i use the HD Native + the 192s - And yes a TDM rig with 192s is way more cheaper and still pretty competitive in terms of recorded audio quality ... probably better than UAD that only have "all in one" solutions like preamps + converters all in the same little box. With a TDM rig if you're using state of the art mic preamps and let's say simple 192s then : i see no reasons not to get one TDM rig nowdays. Talented + dire straits artists could find it useful because it veeeery cheap on second hand market with awsome audio quality during live recordings with real time audio treatments that could be 70 to 100% of the final mix. And let's not forget all these fantastic albums recorded with PTHD rigs in all these world well known dream studios with all these great sound engineers ... at least from 2000 or 2001 till HDX came out ? ... all TDM rigs my friend
I just found your channel. I like what your saying. Maybe not there yet maybe you will touch on it. But why not use what you like, as in it what was used on you favorite albums, before I get this sounding lost. Why can't we use old recording gear like that? Is this the new sought after gear of tomorrow? I have the 888 and a command 8. I have to get it out of storage. Good music is made with the tools you have I see. So please keep making these videos. I am deep into all the info. I ran 3 alesis adat xts to just use the light pipes for 24 more channels. Keep up the good work. Thank you.
I just build a TDM system with HD3 128GB ram in a dual 6 core xeon in a Mac Pro 5.1 . I think it rocks. With 0,4 second of latency it seems better than the 0,8 second on HDX. To compare I built two Mac Pro's with 128 gb ram, twelve core and 24 threads. So I can compare Sonoma with HD native vs HD3 on Snow leopard. No a PT10HD license is quite the money. Its about 700 dollar.
It does rock, and anybody tries to give you a hard time over. Tell him to shove it. Bottom line is it’s one of the most stable systems it’s ever been developed. End of discussion. Those of us that had a tremendous amount of experience on that system, we know it, others, who don’t have experience they just simply can’t understand. There has been no better system of recording, since we went to digital simple as that and I live through every benefit. So feel good about your decision. Bottom line is, You know that whatever money you’re investing in that system right now, you will never see a penny of it back and that’s OK as long as you know it. And as long as you can deal with a limitation associated with it with operating systems and such and plug-in, compatibility, etc. Until that becomes a problem for you get it done. Simplest.
@@BarryJohns Thank you for reaching out. I once bought a full Bag End Crystal P.A. set and that money was never seen after investment. I bought a D&R Console. Same thing. I have heavily invested in surround mixing in the past. I was using 3 roland 8 channel R-BUS cards an an SI24 controller first for Logic 5 on Windows, later using Sonar Cakewalk. Neither was bug free or latency free. I hope to use my two Mac Pro 5.1's to see if HD3 is as good as HD Native... not in terms of audio recording but in handling a Control24. My HD8 supports the native 32 bit driver of the digidesign/Focusrite control24. Ultimate doesn't. But the company Neyerinck makes a translator called V-control Pro. I hope to compare the systems. And I can connect a second system to the Control24 using 8 stereo simple inputs over two DB25 connectors. So I can clock/sync the two machines together and then use them. You have a great channel. Please be safe. And thank you for all you do. Frans. The Netherlands.
A Mac mini M1 and a focusrite/equivalent interface is a better, more powerful option for around the same price! You also have to pay for tdm protools which is still $999900000 for some reason!
I personally don't think it makes since to invest in obsolete technology and go in knowing that is money you cannot get back. It would be much more practical to just save a little more and get an up-to-date computer from the jump, even on a tight budget (like a new M1 Mac Mini as others mentioned, or even a nice Intel I7 PC). Don't skimp on the processor or RAM. Then get a decent interface such as a MOTU, Focusrite, or Presonus, UA, etc.... that best suits your needs and then you can run the latest native Protools software, or any other DAW software application you choose. In the long run, you'll have a rig with the latest operating system that will be supported for a while as well as the ability to run the latest software and not be stuck over a decade in the past. You'll also have modern converters that will provide you with professional quality audio recordings.
Thanks for information and insight . im also sitting on the fence running PT10 H!D 192 C24 Mac Pro . Youve hit the nail on the head ... its the plug ins im missing and would love to be able to run .Want to keep my C24 .....if i sell the mac pro and 192 what would you recommend to replace them....Have you any insight into the Neyrinck software !! Thanks in advance
just sold my tdm system hd2 with 2 192 converters because my mac pro 2009 died and upgraded to a presonus 4848 running on 2015 iMac no latency great converters and stable
Very interesting! I've been looking at the presonus products and thought this might be a "follow up" possibility if I can't use TDM anymore. Are you still happy with the Presonus interface?
As someone new to this whole sphere coming from a computer enthusiast background I truly just don't understand what motivates people to spend so much money on AVID products when you can get reaper for 70 or 220 bucks and its considerably better written software with more flexibility and stability.
Avid is an ecosystem. Media Composer and Pro Tools along with their hardware are optimized to seamlessly integrate with eachother. Just like Apple products, everything works together without a hiccup and in large scale integration (Broadcast, Movie production, Music production) where money is no object, Avid products are known for reliability and stability. For home use, they're maybe a bit too crude and outdated in some areas, but remember that most people who work with Avid for professional use will also use it at home or in free time just for the sake of simplicity, without having to learn and adapt to different software.
@@Anouyz First you present yourself as "new to this sphere", then you immediately respond do my (probably) more experienced opinion with a "lmao no" type of answer. End of discussion for me.
I have the old TDM system and magma bay 8 I have so many cool plug-ins I can’t ever imagine me needing new plug-ins my main issue with this system is it locks up a lot fucks with my creative flow. Anyone have the answers for how to get these systems to stop freezing up.
Unless you work on the next big movie for Hollywood, there’s no more need for Avid system or any other DSP system… let’s get real, you can get a new Mac (or recent PC) and do just as well in your favorite DAW with native plugins.
Which option is Will achieve me the best sounding results 1. Avid 192 Or 2. RME 2010 FF800 I will be only be using the unit adats Connections for ends and outs
I have a couple digi 192 I/Os and and HD native thunderbolt using logic. Alternatively I could get an older mac and go TDM and then fly my sessions into my 2023 macbook to mix? I'd add a duet or some other usb interface for overdubs. I'm assuming full TDM is better than HD native thunderbolt in terms of latency. a 2 system set up without having to spend big?
Hello. Can you please tell me if the Digidesign 96 I/O interface will work with Avid Hd Native tunderbolt? To do this I understand I need a digilink female to mini digilink male adapter to connect it to the digilink(f) to digilink(f) cable?
For most, you have to buy the current version of the plugin and if they had a TDM version, you would be able to get those, as most don't sell the TDM license alone. My go to would be Waves, McDSP, and Plugin Alliance. But I believe that you can still get the Sonnox plugins and other a few others. And I'm one of those crazies (LOL) that after looking at what works best for me decided to build a PT10 HD6 Accel (can fit one more if I wanted) Windows 8.1 PC. 😁
Barry, one could also go HD Native with the 192 I/O and not have any of the software limitations and also have the opportunity to upgrade to a modern computer when possible. Maybe even have the 192 moded($600) and rival some of the better converters available today. Just a thought
@@BarryJohns You are absolutely right (you usually are). Even though you can use the set up with other DAWs, in my experience you still need a good copy of ProTools ultimate to keep the hardware in check from time to time when it gets out of sync. Not to mention it’s best suited for ProTools in the first place.. Which keeps you in the Avid money pit.
Yes, but you don't have the latency benefits of TDM, which is really the best part about a TDM rig. I owned both PCI HDN and TB HDN for our second rig and it just didn't compete latency-wise (almost 4ms RTL at 44.1).
@@MattHepworth you maybe be right about HDN vs TDM latency benefits, I’ve never owned a TDM system but I’m not experiencing any latency issues with HDN PCIe at 48k. My latency seems close enough to zero to where I haven’t even had to think about The exact number.
@@marlonoverstreet6624 If you use the LLM path it's 0.5ms, which is fantastic. Anything above 2ms is troublesome for some, and HDN falls outside of that. Most will not notice 4ms, while others are driven crazy by it.
Thank you for the info man, however; I have an M1 Mac with Pro tools 22/23/24, and not bro. Is not that “powerful” as you said here. My HD3 works faster, more relaxed, and less problematic when using pro tools HD10. You mention the cost of Pro Tools HD TDM, but there is not actual performance comparison. That might be more important than “just money”
@@BarryJohns I have a Macbook Pro M1 (supposedly 3.2Gh 8-core processor) 16gb Ram. My MacBook Pro. Has a PCIe SSD, more Ram than the standard Mac mini. My 5,1 6 core with HD works and performs faster, stable, flawless. In the other hand, my MacBook Pro M1 using a Focusrite scarlet 2i2 often has to buffer. I often press a command and the system takes time to respond. Pro tools started to require over 16Gb of ram since pro tools 12, for pro tools only!! I can’t use non Avid virtual instruments, or some Waves plugins.
thanks for your word, we should in my opinion never forget how much how life style is deviated by the capitalist consumerism culture when we make decisions on buying things
Barry this is off topic , however I use a furman balance power conditioner and a furman voltage conditioner that that I’ve had for many years do you use something like these units in your studio ?
Can you do offline rendering with TDM? I remember being in a super expensive studio with protools and a huge beautiful Digidesign mixer. Super expensive, BUT! because of realtime DSP you could not do offline rendering.
Barry Hello. Can you please tell me if the Digidesign 96 I/O interface will work with Avid Hd Native tunderbolt? To do this I understand I need a digilink female to mini digilink male adapter to connect it to the digilink(f) to digilink(f) cable?
Thunderbolt and digilink are two different things. Yes you can use it, that said, honestly if on a budget I’d suggest buying a 192 I/O as it’s so much better than the 96. If you can’t swing that, then get going with the 96 I/O. Yes you will need the adapter.
@@BarryJohns Thanks a lot, Barry! We took apple mac studio m1 max to the studio, before that we worked on mac pro mid 2010 and on Protools Hd 2 and on two digidesign 96 I/O interfaces, we like the interfaces, so we would like to leave them and connect via avid hd native tunderbolt to mac studio, can you say for sure whether they will work like that? I wrote to avid support about this issue, but they have not answered yet.
@@BarryJohns Thanks a lot Barry! And Avid told me this: Hi Vitaly, Thank you for contacting Avid Support. I just want to inform you that it may or may not work since it's not officially supported.. Yes a Digilink to Digilink Mini adapter going to HD Native thunderbolt is needed to connect it.
@@BarryJohns I just got the deal of the century! 192, 2 HD3 cards and Ilok with PT10 for $125! Already up and running! Thanks to this video for the info!
I think it's never worth it to set up an old system. It's better to build your own pc and get another new audio interface and use a different daw. Use Pro Tools if you can spend the cash.
Think it's protocols 9 on a g 3 or 4. Lol watched more. I use reason 11 nuendo 4 and just started using live. Started on acid pro and way before fl studio and acid pro like 4.
Es un sistema fiable sin duda, lo sigo usando , pero la calidad de los convertidores de las digidesign 96 192, se quedan por debajo a lo que esta saliendo actualmente equipo Lynx, antelope, apogee.
