why throw away the entire laptop if something small and dumb breaks? If only small things broke you can just repair it yourself. I still remember the charging port on one of my friends YOGA laptop burnt and I tried to de-solder and soldered a new one on to the motherboard and it just worked! its not that hard. It costs 0 dollars to do the repair. If the broken parts are just battery, ram, ssds, you can repair them too! (If you spend that kind of money to buy a fremwork laptop ~$2600, I guarantee you those can be replaced and upgraded )
BTW, if the ram is soldered on MB, you can still replace them. There are hundreds of videos available out there. People just be convinced that they can't do anything and need to spend all those money on something "cool" like the framework laptop. But in reality, just ask yourself, are you really care about environment that much? If you do, you won't buy a new framework laptop at the first place, you can just repair your old one.
@@Shionjisama1 soldering is not easy and a lot of laptops are practically built to be thrown away so that small part is massively hard to fix it and/or find not accounting for the price of part and tools
@@Shionjisama Soldering ram is really really hard. It's not like it was in the 80ies were all connectors were multiple millimeters thick and isolated. No way I'm going to be able to solder all these tiny connectors.
Like when the screw housing attaching the hinge to the lid, not even the hinge itself, breaks. Like my Lenovo Laptop, it still runs perfectly fine, but I can't close the lid anymore or It will never open again.
I guess the main value of the framework is actually that you can run it for a long time without upgrading. If you get any damaged component you can replace it even if you are out of warranty. A lot of people are usually not really pushing their CPU that much that they need to upgrade 5 years later but people can be tempted to change the entire laptop just because there might be an issue with it that can't be fixed.
@@GeoStreber He was probably a troll because that was the most asinine statement ever. I can understand him not liking/cautious what framework is going for by seeing other attempt failed doing this. But thinking it less repairable to a company that want you to sell one of leg just to repair a $12 chip is stupid on soo many levels.
Sorry for responding late but isn't the whole point of this laptop to be upgradable with the new gen stuff over time not necessarily just repair. Can't do that on a mac.
I own a MacBook and I can say that it is anything BUT upgradeable! (Hardware wise I mean! Obviously there’s software updates, and you can transfer your data from old devices to new ones! But the problem is that Apple (it might be different now, I’m not sure) does not give consumers or repair shops the tools or ability TO repair their Apple products! I still like Apple but Framework just feels like an enthusiast laptop that I REALLY WANT TO BUY!
I bought a MacBook pro 2016 version. After 1 year when the warranty was over the screen stopped working flexgate issue. Apple service centre asked for $550 dollar for screen replacement. Later on the laptop stopped charging then apple asked $400 dollars for motherboard change. Now I am done with Apple. Will consider framework in future. The fact that a layman can change any parts on this laptop is something worth considering.
I have had a laptop since 2016 and have had to do repairs to it over the years. Not sure when I am going to get a new laptop, but when I do I will get a framework for sure. I am excited about the prospect of upgrading a laptop gpu without upgrading the whole laptop. Framework is coming out with some exciting stuff.
You kinda forgot the aspect of repairability, which I think is actually the biggest argument for a framework laptop. If your Dell breaks in year 3, you’re gonna have to buy a whole new one, whereas on the framework you might have to spend a few bucks to maybe 500 dollars, but you can still use your laptop, won’t generate (as much) waste and won’t have to spend another 1k on a new machine
But how often does that actually happen ? I have been replacing my Mac every 3 years or so for the past 12 years due to the need of staying on relatively recent hardware and consciously knowing that the trade-in program options seem to be the most interesting in our country for 3 year or so old models. And each change of my 16 inch MBP (roughly 3000-3500 or so USD version) costs me around 800 or so usd (trade in + write off). And I’ve never had to repair my device past warranty + I am really conscious about the condition of the device so I don’t eat/drink next to it and it has its space in my work bag. I don’t really see how something like framework could save any money for many proffessionals such as myself. Because yes, component changes might cost roughly the same amount of money as each of my generational upgrades maybe little less. But how is working for example on 6+ year old screen professionaly sustainable, the same thing goes for other components. I personally think that with all of the necessary upgrades framework would most likely cost more than just changing it the way I have been for the last couple of years.
@@dominikhanus9320pretty often I broke part of my bezel about a year in and recently my hinge broke it's only been 3-4 years haven't fixed either (mainly cause I have a framework 16 on preorder) and the other small cosmetic issues that most don't deal with cause it will cost a few hundred or more can easily be fixed
@@dominikhanus9320 My current laptop's battery is just about cooked, but the laptop is over 3 years old so they don't make OEM batteries for it anymore. With framework, you could just buy the newest battery they have for your model and slap it in. Because my current laptop had this issue, I will have to transfer all of my data and perform new system configurations upon a new laptop rather than just slap in a new battery. It is not just ease of work, it is availability of parts. TLDR; minimize downtime.
I think the main advantage in choosing the Framework laptop is that you can buy today without worrying too much about what you'll need in the future. Now I'm studying for a master's degree in computer engineering and I know what specs I need, but in a couple of years I'll start working and I have absolutely no idea about what my workflow will require. So the alternatives are buying cheap knowing I'll probably need an upgrade soon, or buying the premium stuff risking overspending and maybe needing an upgrade anyways. With Framework I can easily buy the chepeast configuration and upgrade later.
But you're paying a premium for even the cheapest Framework model. Even cheaper Windows laptops can be purchased with fast processors and they usually allow upgrading the RAM and storage.
@@loganmedia1142You're right. However, I believe one shouldn't be limited to just upgrading these 2 components: memory and storage. That's where Framework comes in. With them you'll be able replace/upgrade more components. Let's take Windows OS, as am example. If you own a Framework laptop and it's current CPU does not meet a new Windows installation requirement, it's easier and less costly to just upgrade this one component rather than having to purchase a new machine.
@@loganmedia1142but you can’t change the CPU, change the I/O quickly as needs change, change the gpu on the 16”, change the screen, keyboard, trackpad, battery, literally everything.
Well, I'd usually run a laptop until it dies, mainly because changing cpu, io ports, and memory type have been out of consideration. So, I get the beefier that I can and roll with it. Framework could easily change that. If I were to upgrade often, I would get a nice resell value for my older components, and purchase only what I want to upgrade. The price premium gets diluted really fast when taxes rates are tied to price brackets. Afterall, a new laptop from another company implies doing all the upgrades at once, graeter amount paid and thus a bigger tax rate... Whit Framework I could split the cost in many smaller purchases with a lower tax rate.
I own a framework laptop, I'm at 12th gen at the moment and my plan is to upgrade it when Intel 15th gen is released. Or, when AMD Zen 5 comes out, depending on which has better transistor density
And the second something breaks with the laptop, just fixing the framework is going to cost you less than any other offering. Not to hard to justify. Break the screen on the Dell? Buy a new Dell.
Buy a new one or go find sketchy "OEM" screens on eBay. To me, just the availability of the parts is worth a small premium. It's nice to be able to just go to the maker and buy the exact bit you need.
You forgot to mention: How often do you break electronics lol. My mom is very careless with her devices, she has broken her phone and even the chassis of her laptop. Without being able to replace parts she had to get new phones n laptops, which costs a lot more. With the framework laptop I could just buy spare parts and replace the broken bits for her.
Have an 2k usd Aorus, after 18 months I've had a failure in gpu. Fortunately I could manage to get it fixed (for a hefty sum). Already ordered my framework 16. For me its an obvious step.
I’ve ordered myself a 13th gen framework 13, and since I am my friends and family tech support, I am pushing them toward framework simply because of repair ability. The replacement cost for a screen, keyboard, or trackpad is more then fair and super easy to do. That is without even mentioning the upgrade ability of the replacement main board. I also plan on using a 3d printed case for the old main board to make a mini pc when I do my upgrade in future. I have an ego case ready and waiting with a 6650xt for extra graphics power when needed in my garage(where the framework will mostly be used), as my main desktop is in the house and being a 5950x with 3080ti, shouldn’t need upgrading anytime soon. Framework marketplace is the game changer for me and my close family and friends that’s for sure.
One thing to notice: the Framework has 4 Thunderbolt4 Ports, where as the other Laptops here only have one ore two. Laptops with the same connectivity would be a bit more expensive than these alternatives shown here, i guess
Plus a little gimmick: Depending on the configuration, you always have some USB-C adapters with you in your Framework which you can remove to use with another Laptop or Smartphone. So if you need HDMI (or USB-A) on your Smartphone, just take the HDMI-port out of your Framework and plug it into your Smartphone XD
I'm planning on keeping my framework as long as I can. I've owned 3 laptops over the last 18 years- each one was the best I could afford at the time. I only replace computers (and phones) as a rule when they become either too old to daily drive practically or they break beyond my own skills to repair- or taking them to a shop is uneconomical. I'm more than happy to pay a bit more money for a laptop that could last indefinitely (in theory) with the ability to massively upgrade its performance every few years. Plus, aside from that, even if the whole company dies, they're still good laptops with almost desktop levels of repairability. Something almost unheard of from modern laptops (and some desktops, looking at you, the entire apple desktop range)
bought a 16 for about 1450. did all the research and still blown away. i build my computers and for the first time i feel like someone built a computer for me.
Honestly, FW built should be compared to top spec. Metal body laptops costs more, like a framework laptop. The ones compared are cheap laptops, with the risk of chassis damage at the hinge is high at around year 2-3 of its life which is apparent on cheap Lenovo (Ideapad) with daily use, which is critical on display and wireless function. Also motherboard killing itself is also a problem on cheaper laptops which I experience on Dell (Latitude) and Asus (Zenbook) for around the same time with same abuse. With FW, such repair should cost as much as half of the device especially with motherboard problems compared to outright buying a new laptop at year 2-3. I would think that higher end stuff will be costlier in the long run as comparison to a FW laptop, especially the 16 with dGPU. Those premium laptops had started soldering components in them too ala-Apple with RAM. Razer started doing it on Blade, latest Lenovo Yoga is also starting to do it too.
Yep. That Dell XPS at $1000 for a refurbished laptop is a solid deal considering what they go for brand new. My one problem with truly comparing Framework side by side with something like the XPS is the low end speaker solution Framework has. I'd grade Framework as one tier below top tier build quality.
In 10 years, the full laptop will need to be replaced anyway, so… If you buy a Framework laptop it’s for the philosophy behind it. Moneywise is not worth it.
To me, cost or savings won't be the reason I will buy sa Framework laptop. I will buy it because it seems to be good enough and I believe and suppprt the idea of it. It'll always be unfair to compare niche/low volume products like this to mainstream ones because they will always be more "expensive" with lower specs or less features. But I think people should support projects that prioritize creating technologies "the right way" instead of prioritizing fast profit and fast development.
Pretty good video, the only thing I'm missing in this is the battery. With the other brands there is also a brand new battery every 5 years, the Framework battery is likely not lasting the full 10 years.
This only hurts the other brands more. Its getting harder to find batteries for my older dell, dell doesn't sell them! I had a speaker go bad on the dell and had to find a replacement on ebay shipping from Africa. Meanwhile, the framework uses the same form factor and battery for each generation, and they sell parts first party!
Well: - Repairability is a big factor. I have had three broken laptops already (1. Rain damage, 2. Broken GPU, 3. Macbook keyboards), which cut the length of the laptop easily to 3 years. I have seen so many people with broken screens or broken keyboards. - DDR5 is getting cheaper, and you can wait with your upgrade - 13th gen i5 is faster than the 12th gen i7, and the 13th gen i5 is 500 dollar cheaper in purchase price - Framework's refurbished pricing is so good! I was hoping for some more wild speculation and taking these factors into account.
Here's a small bit of speculation. To counterbalance the issues of premature laptop death, I suspect the type of people buying the Framework laptop are also more prone to more frequent upgrades. I'd guess that someone can absolutely save significant amounts of money by going with the Framework, but I also think many people will just upgrade more often instead. Either way though, the user is still benefiting.
After an upgrade, I would get the Cooler Master case and sell it as a small desktop PC or keep it as a router/nas :) I upgrade around every 3/4 years. Oh my last Dell XPS 15 was nice, but build quality was not as good. Hinges broke, sound board stopped working. They look nice when new though.
Wonder if framework sells a kit to build a second laptop after an upgrade. I mean a full package just without the motherboard. Would be good as a pass me down or a second laptop.
This is why it didn't look like it would make sense at this time. I can get a 16" Ryzen 5 laptop with 16Gb RAM and 1Tb NVME SSD for $750. Sure it's screen is only around 50% sRGB and 350 nits. There are only two USB 3 ports, one USB 2 port, one USB-C port and an HDMI output. No ethernet. No customisation options. The thing is that barring something failing this machine will probably be good for ten years. The battery will probably go long before then, and maybe replacements will be hard to get, but we have other laptops that are over ten years old that still work fine as long as they're plugged in.
"Sure it's screen is only around 50% sRGB and 350 nits.":--> then it isn't the same thing. Companies save their better panels for their premium laptops, as "shiny and pretty" sells. " we have other laptops that are over ten years old that still work fine as long as they're plugged in." Again, not a good comparison. Framework not only sells replacement batteries, which are harder and harder to buy and install in 1-3 year old small laptops, but they also developed a better battery that is a drop in replacement. the idea is that normal people can keep their laptops fresh and new for longer without having to have the bad emotions build to the point where they run into a best buy and "buy something". That is worth something to the people wanting to support framework and their mission. But, it doesn't change the not right comparisons I am seeing in the comments (written with love).
Framework laptops are still all new most are still even in warranty. But imagine a second hand market of framework, two of what you listed here are renewed but there is still a premium that come with those review model because they are recertified. But get this, framework is fully modular, buying secondhand will give you so much more peace of mind. Only if it gets popular enough though haha...
Upgrade only when my machine dies. Likely my laptop will be so outdated by then that buying a new one might be better. Framework is just too expensive for not so great hardware. I'll consider them if the price matches their quality.
you also should consider the possibility of repair. if you have a laptop with a faulty battery or problem with keyboarf after 3+ years, that will degrade your experience drastically and maybe forcing you to buy earlier
Well. my current laptop has a 1TB SSD, and a 65W power adpater and cable that I could re-use, so that saves me about US$100 on your spreadsheet. Also, my laptop now 4 years old has developed a problem where it won't boot cleanly on battery (will run fine, just won't boot. I checked for a new motherboard, VERY expensive and as rare as hen's teeth - basically it is dead to me so the Framework concept looks fantastic to me.
First generation framework 13 owner here. Almost every single component in my laptop can be upgraded. I found it easier to just get a new one than upgrading each part.
You’re going to put up with a 5 year old screen? How about a 7/8 year old body? Yeah no thank you. To me this is for the very few that like the idea more than the practicality and enjoyment of most laptop owners. It’s a gimmick.
I'm pretty rough with mine and it is still holding up great. But I love knowing that if anything does break I can just fix it myself instead of replacing the whole device. And when I upgrade to the new 16in version my old main board will become a blade server in my homelab.
I have had a plastic shell laptop since 2016 that I took everywhere (I literally didn't go anywhere without it) for 4 years. I dropped it many times, once even from over 4 feet up onto a concrete surface. The screen never broke and I only have ever had to do one major internal repair. Since the Framework is so easily repairable I have no doubts that it could last 5 years. Especially with light use and if you are slightly careful with it.
@hoosierhardware ? I am a Hoosier! Anyway, I watched this video on my new Framework 16, and I love it. I got 64 GB RAM, and two drives, and a pile of cards. I am running Linux Mint Edge edition, and have no real issues. Love the screen, keyboard and more. You can replace the keyboard and touchpad while watching the video about how to do it if you want. Try that on any other!!!
I think the Framework laptop is very affordable. I don’t know how people can complain about the price? The Intel CPUs are extremely expensive, but that isn’t their fault. Consider it as a package for a metal-body ultraportable with great all around chassis and screen, at a competitive cost for the specs you’re getting. Plus it is upgradable. The AMD options are much more affordable. I hope people realize that the Framework competes with a Dell XPS which is regularly over $1500-$2000, not some bargain bin plastic $700 laptop. The i7-1280P is way overpriced though…
Personally I don't care at this point whether the case is plastic. Only the hardware inside, like the processor, memory and storage. The latter two are usually upgradeable even on cheap laptops. A modern processor is good for a very long time, so upgrades won't really be needed.
@@loganmedia1142 "Personally I don't care at this point whether the case is plastic."--> then there are many options, especially on sale for you. For people who like the frameworks, there is no other option in the market.
The thing is that the cash you spend on a framework mainboard upgrade can buy a laptop.. why upgrade the mainboard when I can get a new device and sell the old laptop second hand?
Game dev here. I purchased my laptop in 2010 and used it till 2019, I played games and developed games. And I still use it sometimes (just mostly moved to pc + iPad for mobile). That i5 2400m cpu still holds it today somehow lol. I can’t run on unreal 5 on it but I can develop or code some light 2D games. So… the idea of owning a notebook that I can carry with me and upgrade it for another decade… imho, it’s the best deal.
That's fair. ThinkPads tend to run higher I price, BUT you can occasionally find a renewed/refurbished one with similar specs to Framework for similar pricing.
@@HoosierHardware ... I'm a person who came from thinkpads to framework. It can be difficult to find older thinkpads with screen resolutions/color gamut that match current laptops. And, switching the panel seems easy when you watch someone do it on youtube, but it harder to do, especially as you get into newer laptops. Screens on most laptops are basically glued in. With the framework, you don't have search... you can just buy the part and put it in. My last thinkpad is now a "desktop", as, after doing hours of research, bought a screen with the wrong connector.... The framework offer EASY to upgrade and repair, which is not the case on $700 laptops. Reading a lot of the comments, people seem to say "well, its expensive... here is some alternative if you don't care about x,y, or z"... which is not a fair comparison. If someone offers the same type of experience for the same amount, I would be curious to know. Yes, you can get similar performance from other things... but that isn't the point. I think the price is more than fair for what you get, the easy of repair for a non computer technician, and the upgrade path. Guess I'm biased as I own two, and will be upgrading the main-board on my 12th gen soon...
if i had a framework laptop i can say id have a better time finding parts for fixing it plus it not being locked parts and it prob be cheaper than buying a new pc from some other brand becuse one chip failed on its motherboard.
Ну по поводу обновлений, одному моему пк уже 25 лет, на нём даже официальная винда 98 стоит) И другой есть которому 10 лет и он полностью рабочий, ютуб тянет в 1080, а игры через облачный гейминг, так что пока он живой смысла обновлять пк нет) Но вот действительно из того почему мне нравится то к чему идёт фрейморк это к кастомизации своего ноутбука. Больше не из за экономии, а из за кастомизации)
Work had to buy us dell rugged extreme for our job sights, that was 2-3 years ago and I already can’t get some upgrade parts for it. I’d rather have the upgrade and repair ability. Turns out i basically baby the rugged laptop anyway so it’s not really worth the money I’ll just get a case
Did you take all this information and the exact sheets from other youtuber Cameron Gray and call it your own ? You both Say exactly the same information and Even disclaimers... Or are You the same person. Sry. I AM new on the freamework videos.
