One thing you missed: Stannis starts seeing things in the fire. There's a chapter in Dance where he's talking to Davos, staring into the flames, and telling him about it. Stannis isn't the truest believer in his army, but he's at least hesitantlly considering believing in R'hllor.
and it's played as a huge revelation to both davos and stannis, indicating neither held much stock in the actual magic of the religion, so the hesitant belief you point out totally tracks
My interpretation: Stannis sees his relationship with the Red God like that of a vassal (Stannis) and a feudal Lord (The Red God). He is not blindly loyal to the deity, but he seems to at the very least think they have some sort of agreement.
@@potentiallyclever3412the show does good in this area.. "you saw what came out of her" the shadow. So yeah he may be on the fence about religion, but he knows there's magic and power
Sarcasm? Because Stannis is most definitely NOT the One True King. If you mean he's the legitimate heir to King Robert Baratheon, the Usurper, then yes, THAT is correct.
@@jedirayden There is no One True King. All power in Westeros originates with the use of force. The Targaryens conquered the Seven Kingdoms with steel and fire. Robert Baratheon then did the same thing to them (minus the fire) - his claim to the throne is just as strong as Daenerys's (or Jon's), or stronger because he's the one who managed to keep it.
Thanks for pointing out that Robert did not choose Stannis to be Hand after Arryn's death (murder, actually). I completely overlooked that. Duty and obligation drive Stannis. He could hate his brother, but he would faithfully serve him simply because Robert is his older brother and now his King. Robert is not just a bad king but a stupid one. He's living in the past where Lyanna is his love and the Targaryens are still his enemy. He realizes he's surrounded by Lannister's but he's dismissive of Cercei's hate and does he really think Jaime is loyal to him? Stannis is the logical choice for Hand, yet he travels for months to cajole Ned into the job. But I guess that why we have 5 books by GRRM, and praying for more (maybe it's we who need to "pray harder!", lol).
Stannis has good points and bad as hand, He is widely unpopular, he is not subtle at all, good thing is he is loyal. I mean at worse he is just as bad a choice as Ned Stark as Hand of the King. He would of been harsher with dealing with Cersei and he would of Joined Forces with Renly to Seize her. He is more pragmatic than Ned Stark when it comes to women.
@@MusMasi Sorry, I did not mean to imply that Stannis hated either. Probably should have used the word "if". I meant that if he hated his brother, he still would have done his duty. Sorry, for not being more clear.
Book Stannis is so awesome, I'm excited to be painting his army in the ASOIAF miniatures game. The adaptation did such a disservice in making him look like a zealot. I definitely wasn't a Stannis fan until I got to the books.
i never got that impression about him until his terrible end, but by that point i was already checked out enough on the show to not let it change my opinion of him.
@@MrYac-ie8ie In fairness I may be misremembering, or just didn't understand the character when I first watched the show. I didn't read the books until after season 7. But thanks to them I went to not liking Stannis at all to bring a huge fan. 🔥
@@dr3dg352 just a different interpretation from different viewers i'd say. to me in the show he was willing to go along with Mel but never really seemed to buy all that much into the religion he just acknowledged that the magic seemed real.
@@MrYac-ie8ie I definitely oughta get out the Blu-rays and rewatch! I've recently seen and love the scene where Stannis and Renly try to negotiate (though show Renly isn't nearly as smarmy as was in the book :P). It's been a lot of fun revisiting the second season.
Great video, as always. I like the ones that talk about character beliefs and motivations via context clues, rational inference, and circumstantial evidence rather than just saying, "On page XX, the character says this and therefore that's the answer." Your discussions always go so much further than just stating the obvious.
The bit I’ve never followed is fLightbringer. Stannis knows it performs no better than a regular sword, and he likely knows Melisandre swapped it for a fresh one, after it’s wrecked in the burning of The Seven on Dragonstone. And she clearly knows it’s not Lightbringer - she’s put the glamour on it after all. She must know it won’t slay Others, and when they discuss slaying the Other with Sam, she oddly never raises Lightbringer. Isn’t that exactly what it’s meant to be for?? I suspect we still have a bit to learn about her motives.
It's kind of interesting how Stannis and Davos have opposite experiences with their faiths, tragedy lead Stannis away from his faith and Davos towards his
I would actually want to see an indepth character analysis of Stannis Baratheon. He is not really a likable person, but at the same time, there is authenticity to him that is not really matched by others. An imbodiment of lawful neutral charachter. P.S. though i don think it will happen, it will be quite a thing to see Stannis out of all the people, to win the Game of Thrones.
What she smells as "King's blood" is likely magic blood, Targ/Valyrian dragonlord blood which Stannis has being part Targ, then COTF magic blood etc. So her "attraction" to Jon Snow is so palpable because she senses two powerful bloodlines in his body.
Just finished a game of thrones for the first time! I can honestly say that your analysis of the text is what got me into the idea of reading the books. Can’t wait until a clash of kings hold is released and I can get started on the next book!
This is why show!Stannis burning Shireen feels so out of character. She's his **only child and heir**. In a sample chapter of TWoW Stannis sends one of his knights to Braavos to hire 20,000+ sellswords. Should Stannis be killed besieging Winterfell, he has instructions to "avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt". Obviously as GRRM is a "gardener" writer, it's possible he originally planned for Stannis to go from a pragmatic believer to a true believer, and sacrifice his daughter. As with many bizarre plot points in seasons 5-8, it's hard to tell what sprang from whatever outline GRRM gave Benioff & Weiss, and what stems from the showrunners' own incompetence
Stannis' use & relation to R'hllorism seems very much one that is a means to an end for SB. Certainly initially seems very little genuine belief beyond what it can do for him , his claim & general aims. He obviously is impressed with Mel & her power (and again what it can do for him) which seems to only grow with each ASoIaF installment. Stannis never got much of anything from the Fot7 so knowing the power a religious / magical association can bring , why not in his eyes even feign embracing one that could potentially further his aims. Let alone one anointing him a savior / king. Ntm the fear , power and certain allies SB can gain via the R'hllorist faith. SB's belief does seem to be increasing somewhat ; Mel is more active , present and visible by his side. And his adherence does seem to be gradually compromising his morals. SB is still pushing back on some aspects but despite inner rationalization that he had no desire or intent to kill Renly (in that manner) he clearly was somewhat complicit. And i suspect we will see more unexpected cruelty and morality compromises (compared to SB's norm) via R'hllor. Arguably most so via Shireen if he is somehow complicit / signing off as i suspect will likely be the case. Ironically using that faith (R'hllorism) to illicit fear , gain power , certain allies , generally furthering his aims and the exalted status he is getting in the process via his association ; will ultimately be his downfall imo. Any sense of adherence & worse acts in that faith's name will turn some away. And after the Shireen incident i think SB will lose much of his support and will crumble (internally & externally) with the guilt of that. Stannis is using Mel / her faith as means to an end to help push a claim he feels is his right / duty and the overall right thing to do. But in the end i think it will also be his undoing and continue to erode and corrupt him until then. Who Stannis was before any association with R'hllor actually made him much more suitable and viable ; a serious , do the right thing type who would have been a fair effective administrator.
also in the fifth book, stannis claims to actually have seen visions in the fire. this might be a sign of his increased corruption, if your theory is true, and may give him justification for his later immoral actions
@@sglauney agreed and good point. So whether actually seeing the visions or just claiming to still for me plays into gradually becoming more a believer or at the least the perception of belief & stronger association. I just see a gradual process of more and more buying into his own hype via Mel / R'hlllor and resulting in more and more moral & ethical compromises and continued corruption. Once you go far enough down that path there is really no turning back.
I think he believes because he saw himself in a battle in the snow 🌨️! She also has 2 shadow babies with King Stannis! He also ❤️🔥 burned Princess Shireen and so did her mother. Melisandre gave her 2 Rh'ollor and the snow melted but half of his army left him.
I agree that Stannis probably doesn't believe in Red R'hllor but in Mels apparent magic. But the excerpt you posted is a little contradictory "I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay." This part makes him sound like he became an atheist, but... "Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship" but this part seems more like someone who still believes in gods but despises them. Like a caricature version of an atheist you might see in a Christian movie, lol Which is weird because I'm pretty sure Martin is an atheist, so maybe it's intentional? Idk, it's not that importan, it just stuck out to me
@@Rebel_Lord_Taron Or a team writers to get these books done. George was sympathetic to the Writers' strike. Time to put some on the payroll. He can afford it.
As others have said, we know Stannis HAS seen visions in the flames before, as confirmed in books 3 and 5, so he at least believes "in" R'hllor, but doesn't care to "follow" him. He knows the god is real, he just doesn't really care.
I think that Stannis recognizes that fire has magical power in the World of Ice and Fire, but I think he knows that R'hllor himself isn't real and that it's just magical power to aid him in his quest for the Iron Throne. He might be struggling with his perception of religion but I think he knows somewhere in his heart that R'hllor really doesn't exist, or at least exist in the way the world views them
It’s always good to hear your voice, Robert. Great video as usual. I think Stannis knows he’s not this savior, but he’s trying his best to buy into it. He tells Jon “Even Azor Ahai didn’t do this alone…” or something of the nature. Interesting to think about.
He doesn't have Shireen with him to sacrifice before taking Winterfell. He'll take Winterfell because he's an awesome strategist. Shireen will be sacrificed in a vain attempt to stop the Others (probably)@@Zveebo
@@alexjones1027 Yeah, such an awesome strategist that he successfully managed to destroy the only coalition that could have defeated the Lannisters by murdering his brother in cold blood… Shireen is not far away - she can easily be brought to the camp if he chooses.
@@Zveebo Yo. Just my prediction based on what we've seen so far... I guess we'll find out if and when the next book comes out, I'll be surprised if I'm wrong (Hopefully in a good way). xx
it seems odd at first how stannis renounces the faith of the seven over lacking goodness, when the faith is the only religion to make mercy a virtue, and then adopts one that very openly has none. an example being how when some members of the faith of the seven torture for religious reasons, it is to try and get them to repent - the intention is to try and help them, whereas the red god apparently demands human sacrifice to no benefit of the one being killed but only selfish gain of the one performing the human sacrifice. however this is in my opinion a realistic depiction of how many people act in real life.
Man i really wiah we got at least one scene where we can see stannis on roberts council, playing off all the others and gritting his teeth at them lol. Both in show and books.
Stannis has been using Melisandre from the beginning. She IS his flaming sword. I would argue, that's very much her purpose in the story; as a flaming sword.
Can´t wait for the moment Melisandre finds out that Dany is actually Azor Ahai. All her prophecies and readings, based on a massive misinterpretation...
Often ignored is that R'hllor is said by Melissandre to be opposed by another whose name must not be spoken. This entity very easily could be the Weirwoods. It would explain why Stanis unknowingly set destroying the tree at Winterfell as a task for the Wildlings as proof of their adherence to R'hllor.
I think it's just meant to be a symbolic gesture of denouncing their prior religion. So far, the weirwoods are linked to the old gods and the children, which seem to oppose the great other
He does believe he's Azor Ahai. He points his sword over the wall amd says that, "The enemy I was meant to fight is out there." He would never have gone to the wall if he didn't think he was Azor Ahai.
great analysis of Stannis. very interesting character. if there is some divine sign or intervention during theon's execution, if the old gods of the north help him the Battle of Winterfell, will he also begin to believe in the old gods?
There are gods in our story, all we see of the gods is nothing more than riddle Varys asks Tyrion, power resides where men think it resides. We confuse gods with mortals who have magic
Stannis’ relationship to religion is pragmatic, not devotional. He can’t deny Melisandre’s power and sees it as useful. His story of the goshawk reveals as much.
My interview is similar to this: Stannis sees his relationship with the Red God less like a devoted follower of a God and more like a vassal (Stannis) and a feudal Lord (The Red God). He probably thinks "I serve you (The Red God) not out of devotion, but out of duty. To fulfil my end of this agreement we have but I don't fully understand.".
As much as it goes, I believe Stannis has no faith in no deity whatsoever, although he perceives magic, sensing its presence in Mel and her Red God. His ultimate mission, as he puts forth himself, is saving the realm (which never loved him) from the harshness of cold and the Others. He’s been deluded by Mel that he’s in fact Azor Ahai reborn, all this time, and he will suffer for it, I assume, one way or another. But one thing’s certain. When he dies, he’ll think of Renly’s 🍑
that was a sad part in the books, He did personally regret killing Renly but he did it. I wonder if Renly should of Taken his offer if the people following Renly would agree though it would be messy if Somehow Stannis were to get a son, but Stannis Son could be Adopted by Renly and be Renly's Heir as a compromise? Or Renly could adopt Shireen? As well Renly's chances of fathering a Heir are low, unless he just lies back and thinks of the kingdom. Maybe Stannis, Renly and the Tyrells could of come to some sort of deal Between them? If stannis was not so stiff necked.
I am mixing the Books and the Movies here, but if Renly wont Impregnant Maergy, Have Stannis do it, and have Stannis make Renly his Heir and have Renlys *son* Follow Renly.
His reasoning for losing faith in the seven really doesn't leave any room for it to make any sense for him to start believing in another religion without good reason.
Stannis above all things believes in doing his duty. He may or may not buy into the fact that he is Azor Ahai reborn, but he definitely believes in the threat descending on the Seven Kingdoms from beyond The Wall, so because he sees himself as the rightful king (which he is as Robert's heir, but isn't if you acknowledge Daenerys as the rightful heir to the Targaryen royal family, so it's a matter of opinion, but that's beside the ppoint. All that matters in the context of Stannis is that he sees himself as the rightful king, so therefore he will die before giving upp his claim to the throne, even though he doesn't want it.) And as the rightful king, he's going to defend the Seven Kingdoms from that threat regardless of if he is or isn't Azor Ahai, because it is the king's duty
2:18 The way Stannis uses "believing" there does not mean he is an atheist. It does not seem he denies the existence of one or more gods, but rather that he doesn't believe they are worthy of worship even if they do.
Always got the impression he was using the red god as a means to an end/that magic bonus. Hopefully the red god is as laid back as king kai or Stannis has a quite the bill to pay later
He reminds me of my father. I never could understand how someone so insensitive to anything that couldn't be calculated in an accounting ledger could believe in any god, but he made a big point about belief in his favorite god being necessary in his house.
Your father, it sounds like there must be more to him than you are giving him credit for. But hey listen I'm just some random dude online@@gregcampwriter
6:10 There is no evidence that she was responsible for burning Varamyr's eagle. People assume it was her, but she seems a bit surprised and silent about it. If it had been her then she would have made more of a show of it and overly taken credit. Lighting things on fire at such a great distance is not something we've seen her do before or since. The only 'evidence', and it is weak evidence, is that she likes fire and that the bird caught fire. The wall itself apparently can detour wights somehow or the Others would have overtaken it long ago in centuries passed. No one has seen a wight scale the wall in living memory and Aemon is quite old. So there is no certainty of how the wall keeps them back or what would happen. More likely it was the magic of the wall itself and if letting everyone believe what they want to believe brings them closer to worshipping R'hllor then so be it.
In my opinion he is what my Grandpa would call a "luke warm christian" or "Fair weather bealiver" or my personal favorite "Easter Sunday one timer." If Mel or the Lord of Light served his own needs he seemed to lean him one way or another. But sitting on the fence to long will make an enemy of both yards dogs.
I've always thought of those sort of people as feckless but Stannis is anything but Melisandre in her one POV chapter says the only real gods to Stannis are honor and duty. And Stannis is iron in his comittment to those. Faith, real sincere faith is something that confounds and eludes Stannis. It's why he's so reluctant to fully commit to a religion even as he leans on it because he does see "something" in it from someone he does trust and depend on. I empathize with that alot.
I wonder if melisandre started in dorne ? It seems like dorne has temples to the red god . I assume it came via trade with the east , we see volintine games are all the rage . Yet nowhere else
I think stannis is open minded enough to see that the magic from a few of these religions is coming into the real world and he's trying to use what he can to help him but I'm not sure he is a follower of rhlorr but he's not in denial that these red preists have power.
He believes in him. Such kings existed through history: Phillip le Bel or Henry VIII, understood and used the religion... but their true God was themself. Francois the First allied with Soliman and the Ottomans, "unbelievers and heretics" on christian standards against the Holy Empire and others who were christians like him... because in the end true victory was better than false hopes and vague beliefs, differant allies were better than similar ennemies. For Stannis, his ennemies are worshippers, defenders and are supported by the religion of the Seven... why would he keep them? The Septs are of no use to him, declared Joff the true legitimate king: he is a strategist, not a faithful, a Napoleon on march not a monk on pilgrimage.
The interesting thing for me is: How does this play out in Shireen's burning? Would book Stannis go as far as his TV show counterpart and sacrifice his own daughter and heir? I never believed that, especially given that Selyse is the zealot, not her husband, and that the three girls/women are at the wall and not with Stannis at the end if ADWD if I remember correctly, so I cannot imagine that Stannis is the one giving the order.
I think he would, yes. He hasn't been pushed that far yet, but given a hopeless situation in which he believes he needs to murder kin to become king, I think he would do it. Whether because he is simply power hungry, feels he is owed it or justified in it, or because he thinks he has to to save the world (considering the story of Azor Ahai and Lightbringer, you can see how he could mentally get there).
That plotline came from GRRM and I think he confirmed it was at Stannis' order. It seems unlikely (unlike Selyse/Melissandre, who would only be too happy to burn her) but in extremis, I can imagine he might (like, perhaps to win the Battle of Winterfell against the Others). GRRM might have changed his mind, of course (assuming TWoW ever comes out!).
He killed his brother - of course he would be willing to kill his daughter. There is almost nothing he wouldn’t do for victory and power. Anyway, we know this part came directly from from GRRM, so it’s not really even in doubt.
@@michaelbayer5094 Stannis committed treason by supporting Robert’s rebellion. So you can forget any sort of moral high ground here. In any case, if he were to lawfully kill his brother for treason, there would have had to be a trial, with the attendant rights to call for a trial by combat or a trial of seven (I wouldn’t have fancied Stannis’s chances in either). But none of that happened, because Renly wasn’t killed in an honourable legal way for treason - instead Stannis arranged to kin-slay his brother by a shadow baby in the simple pursuit of power. And by doing so he destroyed the chances of a victory for the Baratheon-Tyrell-Stark-Tully alliance and consigned Westeros to the disastrous rule of the Lannisters, ensuring that the mortal threat from beyond the wall would be ignored by the Crown. He put himself before Westeros - and he knows it, as his shame at the murder of his brother shows through a number of times. Few people in the books have committed more disastrous, appalling acts than Stannis did.
No. The way he bargains with Jon about not marrying Val to one of the queensman for info about more fighting men in the mountains. Stannis ask Jon is he wishes to take the vow on their deal in front of a Werewood. This shows respect for Jons views on his gods and most important it shows that Stannis isnt to keen on Rhalor like most of men that joke about the old gods being trees and getting pissed on by dogs.
Almost everybody in the book is using their religion, the exact same way we use religion in the real world, for advantage, for comfort, for political convenience, and expediency
If Stannis did not believe, how was he able to burn his daughter? The logic in this video makes sense. He does not seem religiously moved to personal worship, yet what is more personal than burning Shireen? Confusing. Was he sacrificing her to Melasandra?
so i have a theory about bronn of the black water being maegor targaryen. hear me out i dont mean the king maegor targaryen i mean aerion brightflame son maegor or one of his kids he fathered in Lys. the ages/time line match up given aerion time in Lys it would explain bronn knowledge of sell sword and essos , and there the wildfire that both are known for. i know its a wild theory but i thot it be fun to bring it up
I just want to know why Stannis wants to be King so badly. More than it’s “his right.” If that was the only reason he would have no issue with abdicating that right and letting his brother have it. Why does he want it some much himself? Also, before he learned the truth of Joffrey’s parentage, would he have backed Joffrey as deeply?
Lol. What do you expect him to do? Just chill & let the Lannisters take the throne which is rightfully his after they killed his brother Robert for it. Damn right he wants that throne plus some Lannister heads on a spike. And yes Stannis would've backed Joffrey if he was the rightful king since Stannis said it himself it was hard to choose between Robert & Aerys since the throne rightfully belonged to Aerys. But he remained loyal to his family even though Robert was an asshole and Joffrey most likely would've been.
@@ghostdreamer7272because laws should be made of iron and not pudding. He is the rightful and lawful king to abdicated in favor of Renly would be turning the law to pudding.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 well that’s a new one. What does it even mean? Also, Stannis giving to Renly is perfectly acceptable. There’s multiple cases of abdication from the line of succession.
