After all the changes made after Olaftw's videos, I didn't think I'd also see the need for any more changes, but I actually agree with most of them. Especially the skill jumps, as I knew you could boost up there but I'm surprised it was a self boost as well. It doesn't look like it. I hope the T-spawn doesn't get changed though. I can understand that in theory the pathways can seem annoying. But while playing it never crossed my mind and I like that you have the option for two pathways, in case you come last or are afraid to get blocked by teammates.
I won't lie, within all the community maps that have been added to the game since csgo, this one is one of my favorites. I still agree with everything you said in the video, those issues are annoying. However, to give credit to the map, i feel like its intuitive, and at the same time, the layout is unique enough to give place for some creative plays. If the issues you talked about get fixed, I wouldnt be mad if they added it to premier. Anyway, good video!
I think the "It's working so it's fine" vs "It works but it could work better" argument should be reframed as "I made these choices because I want you to play this map in different ways" vs "I want you to make choices that are more meta and that will be more comfortable for my playstyle". FMPONE clearly didn't want to make a meta map. He wants some diversity in the pool.
Your observation of this being a non meta map is very correct, and Im all for it. As I said in the video, I actually like the layout a lot and find it very fun. Only praise from me there. But the 3 things I critiqued I think are pretty objective, across all gamemodes and playstyles. Moreover, I feel like the maps' unique nature would be better represented with these pain points adjusted. Fmpone has a strong vision for the map and kept stuff like B site intact throughout all of the updates. But he nethertheless cleaned up clutter to make the map feel better. So Im arguing that the glass and the skilljumps are also part of that clutter that can be improved without reducing the maps' quality and uniqueness.
I think the skill jumps are amazing. I love practicing my movement in maps and once you get it you get it I can hit the b door jump 100% of the time Its literally just a skill issue on your part XD
@r3nnoc definitely a skill issue. Tho I was arguing that competitve isn't a kz server. The skills that the whole game is designed around are shooting, positioning, teamwork, utility usage, etc... With skilljump ability being mostly irrelevant to a teams success. Same reasoning for why they made the silo jump on Nuke easier or killed bunnyhopping apply. These mechanics are cool, but the competitive gamemode just isn't about them. Imagine if there was a competitive map where every time you wanted to open a door, there was a lockpick minigame. I mean, yeah, if you can't open it, it is a skill issue, but I dont think it's a skill that the game should be decided by.
I left a like and I've already subscribed so i don't have to consider that. Anyway thanks for the shoutouts. Super interesting video and nice to see someone actually go trough the effort of making sort of a list of the things to, as you said "reduce player frustration". My original angry video served its purpose and the follow up was kind of an apology in a sense as i introduced the map to some thousand people as "this is shit". I do have to double down and say that i get frustrated with all these things in de_thera right now, and its one of the reasons i don't play it more often. The larger layout issues aside, the map could be bit nicer with these issues adjusted.
For whatever reason the 2 new maps have bullet registration issues more than other maps. But then again maybe the server that was allocated to it was the issue
Good takes on the map's issues! To me, community made maps are a lifeline in Counter Strike due to the fact, that Valve so rarely releases any new ones. We should all do our best to give the creators quality feedback and improve the communal experience!
The brown door is a perfect example of skill vs knowledge. Skill-based jumps are something you don't have to learn. I see the mirage window-to-ladder room jumps and they make sense. If I was attentive enough, and skilled enough, I could have done it without going online or seeing it done by my enemies. But the brown door? It's a part of the map that requires no skill. You just need to know about it. And only way to do that is to happen to come across that in a real match - Usually by the opponents, and you'd still have to watch a demo to understand what happened. The window is also poorly thought out, you can't break it every round or Ts know if you're playing mid that round. So you have to leave it unbroken every now and then just so you have the option to stack a bombsite on an eco round. But I do agree, making more unique layouts is always good. FMPone has been publicly against that for a long time, and it's sad that all his mids are still exactly the same - But at least he's trying now, and that is always good.
And it's almost impossible to KNOW that your enemy selfboosted there. The only ways are if they're the only enemy alive and they just show up there or if you are on a flank and happen to see a very awkward scene of Ts trying to jump there. Most of the times you would just assume that a teammate boosted them
as someone who never played the originals versions of these maps (Thera and mills) i like them but mills is much easier to play while thera feels like a casual map with too many angles in 1 spot. very hard to play competitivly. the visuals of thera remind me of a map in the first overwatch game.
If a player could cover a position ideally around mid and get useful info from whether or not T break the mid window so they can prevent Ts getting CT spawn then the glass would make more sense.
w video enjoing your content lately :) i have a very shitty aim for the ammount of hours i put into this game. But being consitently on those kind of things make this game more as only a shooter so for me skilljumps make total sense. also maps outside of the primepool, maps should be allowed to be "fun" its an element in the game very competitive ppl forget sometimes. And there are alot of ppl playing this for fun.
The statement "if it works, it works" is reminiscent of "so long as it's good enough" Which could or could not tell you everything about a person's mindset
community maps are always filled with design issues, same with the TF2 summer update 2024 releasing a map with a massive glaring chokepoint in it that cant be gotten through
For me the only reason i like the map are skill jumps and other different jumps that make the map fun. I really hope they don't get changed just because some people can't do them. I agree that they can be made more obvious tho
@dom1torii I personally think that competitive isnt about skill jumps. You can do them for a slight advantage, but theyr not at all nescecary to succeed. I highly doubt that mirage would have been so popular today if the only way to go up palace was a 290 unit kz
@@T2mure all these "hard jumps" are not that hard to do tho, they are comparable to mirage's window to cat, you just need to practice a bit. also they serve the same purpose imo. Its just another faster way getting somewhere
@dom1torii I do think my palace comparacent was appropriate. When going cat from window you also have other options like the easier jump to vent, or just going up mid like usual. But if you are trying to go upper B on thera your only other option is going all the way around the map through ct controlled areas
@@dom1torii the point wasn't about difficulty, but how badly desgined they are. You know you can jump to mirage window without going to RU-vid tutorials, you CANNOT know its even possible to jump on the brown door, because it doesn't follow the logic of rest of the map (there's thousands of similar sized surfaces that are clipped off) There is no skill expression in making youtube kz compilation a homework for your map, that's just an unnecessary knowledge check.
welcome to fmpone where in his mind he will always be right.... said the same thing on discord... His community & him "the map is not an intuitive mess" at that point i realized that they really dont care ab feedback and moved on to never play it again
@user-xf9rz9wx6m A lot of clutter will need to be removed. Thats mainly the reason for performance issues. As I said above, way too much detail. As for structure. Its difficult to tell, but atm it feels way too complicated. Reason why recent new maps like Anubis, Ancient or Vertigo work, is because they are simple
I liked santorini as well. But I Think theras changes are quite interesting, and probably were one of the reasons it was added to the game over other csgo ports
@@T2mure For me it seems like a lot of cheats play the new maps. But also on the other maps aswell. They always have a couple of hundred hours everything about their gameplay is trash like movement, nades etc. but use aimlock and wallhack.
