Link to video on can you see the lips of the singer? studio.ru-vid.comVIpTt5SB3_k/edit Link to playlist on audio discussion: ru-vid.com/group/PLtkU4eRp056bRN8b4opAFCg21ICgyszh0 Link to hifiexpress for SMSL A2: hifi-express.com/products/smsl-vmv-a2-digital-pffb-power-amplifier?variant=40216029954205 The answer to the thumbnail is at the last 3 mins of the video.
Love these videos more than review Thomas. Regarding scale, my preference is as big & tall as possible. I love the feeling of my music being played by giants or being in a big live concert!
After thirty years, I have learned that, after you reach a certain level of fidelity, what matters most is controlling the 'presentation' of that fidelity, via control of parasitical vibration in speakers, electronics and power supplies. Vibration control plus a clean mains makes just about any well-made equipment sound musical. Most of our frustration that a system only does certain things to a satisfying level comes from failing to deal with vibration and poor mains. The idea that listening to a system is just a matter of matching circuits, in a vacuum, is lunacy. We live in a world where unwanted, exterior and interior physical variables intrude. Most of the 'character' of what you hear is colored by the raw physics of mains pollution and vibrations caused by microphony and internal noise. You can make startling character changes in your music by changing just the feet of your equipment. You can 'tune' your system to an incredible degree, if you know what types of supports to use. I can make an amp or CD player sound 'tubey' or 'clean' or 'textured' just by using different supports. Instead of looking for improvements in 'detail retrieval' or 'cleaner bass' by changing to a different amp or speakers, you can try far cheaper vibration-reducing footers and shelves and get most of the desired result. I'd much rather refine an existing system by playing with new supports than go back to the merry-go-round of constantly changing amps, speakers and sources hoping to find a perfect fit. I never found that perfect fit. What I learned instead was to find a system that got close to my dream sound and then tinker with various tweaks until it approached being everything I hoped for. It's cheaper, fun and you have a more precise control of shaping the sound in directions you want to go. Anyway, my two cents.
Cool video and great topic Thomas! I found holographic soundstage can be achieved with many entry level setups, if you go near field and as far from wall boundaries as possible, especially the back wall (behind the speakers...). It is a weird setup, but having speakers close to a chair, in the middle of a room launched me to another dimension. The thing is, I found it true for equipment that was not recommended for near field, as well as equipment matching that does not work well with mid/far field setups. Once I go bak to more traditional setups, yes, the room to speaker size (and off-course, distance from the back wall) are the key factors. I keep mentioning back wall because even if I get a sound stage, it just feels artificial if I don't get the distance from the back wall that matches it. I did find it that once there's a god tier soundstage, all my sound preference go out the window. Bright, shouty, fatiguing... it's all good.
You know, the biggest upgrade to my sound system recently was when my other half inherited a ‘high wing backed’ chair. Made an enormous difference to the sound stage of my system.
Yeah I’ll second that! You must be a legit giant! High backed chairs are supposedly not favourable for good listening if your ears are below the back of the chair…( listening level) I mean Your head should be clear of the back of that chair !
Haha I’m no giant. I always assumed the same regarding chairs, and had found it to be the case with hard wood or leather chairs. This chair is foam filled, similar material to foam used in room treatment. For me, it massively improved the sound of my system. Perhaps my room was lacking in the sound treatment beforehand 😂
@@Xanadu1510AE hehe I thought the same. I’ve always avoided anything high backed. Honestly this chair did the trick, an absolute fluke of a setup. Imaging increased exponentially, soundstage improved, absolute game changer. Completely contrary to my own expectations.
@@lewiswaddo5045 well dude I guess I learned something new today about those chairs ! I’m glad it works for you and I wouldn’t easily disagree with a guy called Lewis since that’s my surname! 😉😎…. My last name ie🍻 From one Lewis to another, it’s all about the music in the end! Right brother??!!👍
An under-discussed factor to soundstage size and scale: the volume you listen at! Paul McGowan even mentioned once noting down the volume level for his favorite recordings that achieved what he thought was appropriate scale for each recording.
This is true. Volume has a lot to do with it. I also think a system with too large a soundstage can be dialed in using proper speaker placement techniques
I really enjoy your approach to music and tech because it is conversational, entertaining, practical, and not jaded. Your practical approach challenges the breakdown of bias and the usually expected snobbery. I would be honored to have friends such as yourself and your listening buddies because you all individually seek the truth, integrity, and high standards... while punching holes in the tradional audiophile pretentious snobbery... but not at the expense of insult and hurt feelings. You supply a "safe space" in which experience is honored and respected... while at the same time by allowing the newbie the dignity to fail and learn without destroying their eager--if sometimes overly zealous intensity. In otherwords, the music is important, the science and technology always are intriguing and challenging... but you are always there to humanly tie it altogether in order to bring it down to earth...you always seem to have an inside joke going on with just enough "tongue in cheek" to keep it not only practical and on point and thought provoking,--but also fun and playful... while encouraging yourself and others, not to take themselves too seriously and spoil the enjoyment of the hobby in the process. Please keep your approach in tack... classics, like ethics and high values never lose fashion... but arrogant know-it-alls do because they are out of place and ruin the enjoyment for others... thank you! Oh, and by the way--not only the lips... but the teeth and the tongue, along with the diaphramic breath control. 😉
@@ThomasAndStereo It is always easy for me to appreciate and stick to the truth... the truth in all my words is simply to give credit, respect, and acknowledgement of what is due another individual... thank you for your kind response! So glad our paths crossed!
Sound stage for me is all about speaker placement , width and toe in. There’s something special about sitting in the sweet spot listening to a good recording close your eyes and hearing where all the musicians are.
Thomas Perhaps your penchant for tube pres is related to 𝙥𝙤𝙬𝙚𝙧𝙛𝙪𝙡 comments I noted that Nelson Pass stated... He discovered negative phase 2nd harmonic increases soundstage dimensionality and image specificity. Pass also concluded in-phase 3rd harmonic improves dynamic presentation. There's much more, but the salient elements; "𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘯𝘦𝘨𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘷𝘦-𝘱𝘩𝘢𝘴𝘦 𝘴𝘦𝘤𝘰𝘯𝘥 𝘧𝘰𝘴𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘴 𝘢𝘯 𝘪𝘭𝘭𝘶𝘴𝘪𝘰𝘯 𝘰𝘧 𝘦𝘹𝘱𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘦𝘥 𝘴𝘱𝘢𝘤𝘦 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘭𝘰𝘤𝘢𝘭𝘪𝘻𝘢𝘵𝘪𝘰𝘯, 𝘢𝘯𝘥 𝘵𝘩𝘦 𝘴𝘺𝘮𝘮𝘦𝘵𝘳𝘪𝘤𝘢𝘭 𝘵𝘩𝘪𝘳𝘥 𝘴𝘦𝘦𝘮𝘴 𝘵𝘰 𝘪𝘮𝘱𝘳𝘰𝘷𝘦 𝘥𝘺𝘯𝘢𝘮𝘪𝘤𝘴" As I recall he affixed an un-labeled control on the face of a prototype amplifier, allowed others to enjoy the amp and then explain which switch position they preferred and why. I believe such exploration and findings are essentially the impetus driving his First Watt designs. Thanks for the content, I really dig the anecdotal story time.
It took me more than two years moving and matching equipment to get the soundstage you are describing. My total equipment investment is about $3200. No room treatments- Just Bookshelfs and furniture in a 14'x14' room. Again, this was a two year journey experiencing many disappointments. Still waiting for your book to be published. I will be the first requesting a signed copy.🤞
without room treatment its very unlikely that your soundstage is anywhere near perfect. i never listened to your system and i was wrong before so ... trust your ears more then my ass pulls but i just wanted to give you another little hit into the direction of thinking about where accoustic treatment can be done and doesnt hurt the room. there are many ways to treat the room in some way, alot of individual things but they pay out big time in the end. best of luck with your system!
hello new viewer here, been a car guy most of my life and i'm looking at you audiophile hobbyists and it's very accommodating how similar you people behave, i am talking about your anecdotal stories of min maxing [from video games] and a/b testing and trying out new equipment though i believe your methods are crude compared to automotive engineering i see potential and maybe one day i can create a perfect speaker for my own anyway thanks for your hobby videos hopefully i will utilize the knowledge in those and from other resources on this rabbit hole of a hobby! Cheers.
I thought about your take on rooms that are assymmetrical. Many of us who don't have a dedicated audio room have this problem. So now I changed my listening position to the left of my previous 'central' position, move 1 spkr further away from the front wall and tilt/toe-in both differently with respect to the front wall. So basically, I rotated the whle triangle clockwise. I would say that overall depth of the soundstage changed, can't tell for better or worse. But I'll certainly experiment further with the toe-in and observe the effect. Thanks for the heads up!
I hear you. It can be a profound change. I set up speakers in a room once and thought I had everything right. It had been a long day and went to sleep. Got up the next day and something just wasn't right. Re-measured and was off by a half inch on each speaker. Made all the difference.
@@NBK6KP9 I tell you what, audio is cheaper than what trouble it keeps me away from. My family at least recognizes that. Left to my own devices I'm no angel heh!
@@irzyxelwj Sounds like there is a SERIOUS story there! :D HEADLINES: Audio Keeps Man From Mass Murder! Apparently the secret to controlling this man's desire for mass killing is an obscure Asian Audiophile on RU-vid. He says that every time he gets the urge to kill, this RU-vidr always says in his video, 'You will have to wait until the end for the answer' And, according to this man, he is compelled to wait until the end of the video until the powerful killing urges subside. On a side note, many have been know to hang themselves waiting for this mysterious RU-vidr TO GET TO THE POINT!!!
I think another more consistent way is to treat your room properly with quadratic diffusers, provided you have an expert doing it for you since there is no guessing with acoustics.
Nice video and very audiophile ... For desired soundstage all the audio setup should be consistent, balanced, and also the room is very important. I reach the "soundstage nirvana" without real preamp, without room treatment, with almost the same setup only with the source changed and for final touch I change the DAC who fixed all the "books" in real "toys" around my head....Next step could be, for my point of view a real preamp in place, to saw is something happened and to finalize a USB cable choice. In the next few days I will listen USB cables from 50 usd to 1500 usd without Nordost and mooooree expensive ones. Also I play with expensive setups and low budget like your friend, and YES, the biggest joy is to have very good sound with low budget gear, even DYI "tools" .... Cheers Mr Thomas
Another fantastic video! I think you’re really onto something with these discussion videos. Equipment reviews are helpful and can be fun, but these discussions really serve to further the hobby, not just move product. Also, I have to say that your discussion (and reviews as well) are so thoughtful, insightful, genuine, and just plain refreshing; a stark contrast to so many of these so-called audiophile RU-vid-ers - (one in particular who claims to be in “recovery”). I never find myself questioning your sincerity or feeling like I’m being sold a bill of goods. And, lastly, (at least for today) I find the way you compare and contrast the way Asian (and Chinese in particular) audiophiles value certain sonic characteristics of audio reproduction, and the words they use to describe them, insightful and fascinating. I have NEVER in my 35 years of Western audiophilia heard some describe seeing the lips of the singer or critiquing whether the singer sounds not only the right size, but also the right age! It’s so basic and completely brilliant. This type of insight and discussion is EXACTLY what this community needs. Thank you for all you do!!
Thanks Dan for the feedback, I really appreciate it and I hope to make more videos like these. The fear is always if people will accept this unconventional way to talk about audio.
Much appreciated Thomas, that was an eye opener in my case. After a little under a year of owning my speakers, I'm still moving things around. In the beginning the singers were giants so the speakers had to be further apart. Thanks to a tip you gave in a previous video. Now I've learnt more. Love these videos Thomas, they really help. I mean what's the use of spending so much money to buy the gear just to set it up it all wrong and have Schitt sound.
Great video! Very interesting. Being honest with yourself and what you want out of your system is probably the best approach. I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for this...., but my soundstage/my system really opened up after I replaced a couple of stock power cords and a couple of stock fuses with higher-end options in my equipment. I already had everything else pretty much like I wanted it, and my room was pretty acceptable, so the components that received the upgrades in the chain really stood out.
Living in a attached house, I have a lot space but it's narrow. I placed my speakers 2.5 feet away from my sofa. Imaging is amazing, I can feel that I am in the front row of a concert or I could touch the singer. Because I don't have space behind the sofa, my soundstage is kind of limited. So I am trying to find another set-up more suitable.
Great topic, great video. My biggest improvement was upgrading from Node 2i to a Lumin streamer. Big difference!! I do have one of those irregular shaped rooms and I’m left constantly trying to angle the speakers and never seem to get it right......
Absolutely. My desk setup is a pair of Klipsch R-15M and 15w monoprice amp. There are tracks that make it sound like the singer’s head is somewhere just behind my monitors. It isn’t the most pristine sound but proper positioning can yield some pretty impressive results with probably a lot more gear than some might think.
Have you tried a Schumann Resonance Generator? It elevates the 3D to a new scale of optimization. I have a Zero Zone that uses a supplied (3) PSVane 6J1 tube. I’ve added silver cables to optimize my unit.
Totally agree Thomas. to me room treatment is extremely important. while i have good soundstage due to my room's small size & irregular shape my soundstage is limited. Once i get my room treatment sort i believe it will be as good as it will get.
The great thing about building speakers is that you don't have to worry about matching, just tweak the speakers for the amp etc. That said I always tweak my speakers to be able to "see" the words come out of their mouth. And Sada is an excellent voice to test that. If I can't "see" her mouth, my speakers suck. So I will tweak them till I do. And after doing this stuff for so long I know how I can do it. I do it with the crossover and acoustically by tweaking my (unique) acoustic gap under my single driver speakers for treble and med. Ther is a small gap between the driver and the box and the speaker hole is also treated with a shallow bass vent tube. This extends treble and bass and makes a voice sound to die for. Am I crazy? With an a-b test with normally mounted drivers I clearly favour the open sound and increased soundstage of the semi open cone. It also brings tube like ambiance. More spacial and I can easily "see" their mouth.
Hi, I followed your recommendation for the VMV A1 and I still cannot believe how good it sounds in my setup, I am using the Shiit Freya + as preamp. This has replaced a Audio Rearch 5se and a PS Audio 250 Signature. Crazy? No, I am 60 now and have been an audiophile since age 12. Money will not always buy you better sound. And the engineers in China have done a great job.
I always look forward to a new Thomas video, specially the discussion type. I give the price for the most important and interesting audiophile video on RU-vid to Thomas & Stereo's "Just Right" discussion video called "What does a high-end DAC has to offer? Meitner audio MA-1 DAC (Not a review)" ! This and Steve Gutenberg's are the top audiophile channels. Keep up the good work!
Been following audio-related stuff heavily for the past half year or so. Each video I watched brought up another item to add to a 'to do list'. Till at some point I just shook my head and went to an audio store to listen to a set amount of speakers. The differences I heard there weren't quite as big between some, yet very big between others. At the end of the day I went home with a pair of Focal Aria's 926. It's easy to get lost in this audio-hobby world, and to other people trying to get into this hobby best to just take it step by step. I don't have expensive speaker cables, a 5k$ amp and dac combo or a specific living space set up just for audio-related things. But a lot of these things can be worked towards over the months/years. Step by step. Thank you for these insight vids!
It's a great pleasure to watch your videos and I have a question,if you may answer,fyne audio 501 floor standers or the monitor audio silver 500 7g,being in Australia where the prices are almost 3 times the price ,I don't really want to make to make the wrong choice at these prices.thanks.
Hi Thomas. As always, a very thoughtful, balanced and entertaining discussion. For me it was the switch to open baffle speakers that made the most impact on sound stage in my room. Spatial Audio M3 Sapphires. They are worth investigating - especially if you know and love he sound of an actual piano. For this music lover of 55 years the next change will necessitate architect and builders to modify the house... Thanks for your excellent input to the conversation. As always, greetings to you and yours.
Tube pre. is a good reason for great soundstage. In my room I do not place the speakers in the typical triangle. I have them a little wider and I do not toe them in that much. Maybe 15%. I also think that standmount speakers disappear more easy that other speakers. Thanks for the video.
Told IT once will say it again, love this kind of video's, stories are perspectives, perspectives are option and new possibolities 😉 also nice to know what happend with the A2, wanted to share IT with a friend 🙂
Tried it . Seeing the lips of the vocalist. I swear I could hear the singer turn her head as she was singing. The sound seemed to move only inches. Very cool.
Agree with speaker positioning (but the asymmetry can drive one nuts!). I think the most vital bit is to have friends who can sit down, listen and fine tune with you. Not fun moving speakers alone. Lol.
@@ThomasAndStereo Amazing for pricepoint. When i listen to Michael Jacksons thriller At the first of the song MJ opens a door and walks across the stage I can hear those footsteps go across my room in between my speakers from left to right! Spooky Stage !! Also i can hear Susan Wongs saliva sticking to her lips when she sings melts me into ! California Dreaming 😆
Hi Thomas, loved the discussion- thank you! With your extensive experience can you recommend which pair I should get for my Marantz SR-5012? Triangle Antal XS, Monitor Audio Silver 500 7G or Focal Chora 826? Or a totally different brand? I have a 10x10 living room and cannot audition. Thanks in advance.
This is one of my favourite video from you, even compared to Ron, Steve, Taran, Sean and Jay, this IS a very "en-point" video on soundstage and imaging, which arguably is the most important criteria for a "healthy" audio system. This video is almost on par with John's "X" video that he has learnt in 10 years, in terms of valuable understanding and expectations on how to get the best buck for your system. Thank you Thomas. The idea of getting the right speaker for the room is so so so so so true. A reviewer may sing high praise of a speaker, but it can sound awful in your room (I've learnt that the hard way). So it's not the speaker, it's not even your room, it's the matchingness of these 2 elements. The same speaker that sucked in my home, sounded jaw-dropping in my training room (4 times bigger) because the speaker has a "long throw" and the bass is booming the room perfectly. Thank you for planning your video content for hobbyists like us.
Greetings Thomas. Another worth watching video. Good one. However, I wonder if those audiophile quality traits IMO should come holistically. My experience with clean & good power isolation (when applied correctly) DOES make significant contribution. Ideally, when such things achieved, one might get 3 dimensionality with details spreading across that imaginary dimension (hence my comment of ‘musically analytical’ on your synergy video). As for scale issue, isn’t that strongly related to the mic positioning during recording (eg. Carla Bruni - French Touch, which has extremely close mic positioning that contributes to this ‘scale issue’ IMO, it does so on my system compared to many others such as Norah Jones - Come Away With Me)? Anyway, keep up the good work. Thanks for sharing!
Yeah, great comments and something for me to think about too. When I talk about scale, I mean it applies to all in general and not record specific. If you listen to a system with incorrect scale, all recordings will sound like the singer is too big.
Great video Thomas! A tall room opened my eyes to scale with revel M22 speakers. Really depends on the speaker IMHO. Other speakers work better in "normal sized" rooms. Full range single drivers seem to work best of best in small and medium rooms. Amazing how much mid range is covered up by woofers.
Good question. I think sound stage is most impacted by the recorded music and then by the source. In my case a digital streamer with triode output. Just cleaning up the clock signal has a huge impact on sound stage. Of course the rest of the system has to be well resolved. Everything matters. I have a switch on the amps to change feedback. Big change on the sound stage. Less is more btw.
I had a Proceed avp preamp until it went down. I had so much fun listening to it compare to the one i have been using. i wish someone has a circuit board. One of the board is burnt due to couple of blown capacitors.
In my experience, Toe in angle is what you need to play with. If you create an equilateral triangle with your speakers and point the tweeters right at your ears, you will get the correct 'size' of the singer.
Check out my system, I value imaging over everything else in a system. I am going to buy a serious power amp and connect it direct to my Chord DAC, look at the Cambridge Audio Edge. You should review it : ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zVqWGis2mT4.html
Very informative sir. I believe tube in output stage (power amp low watts) and solidstate pre amplifier makes better realism in my system. I hv learned rational speaker placement from Bob robin... I m very passionate on spending hours on speakers placement and little tone setting.
Why does it have to be compared to a live performance? Which concert hall? Which live event? Do all live events and concert halls have exactly the same soundstage? I love to hear the logic behind it. So unless someone has gone to 100 concerts, they are not allow to talk about soundstage in a stereo system? What if I am a musician and I play in a band, does the soundstage from where I sit the same as the audience? Should I evaluate it based on where I sit?
Over the years, people have gone away from a "system" and now so many homes will just have a Bluetooth speaker of some sort. The age of instant and easy gratification. Just no! The audio experience has vanished from too many lives! You can spend $200 on used vintage gear and it's miles better. I actually got a guy into audio by doing just that. Bought some pieces and parts and told him if he doesn't like it - it's free. He paid me what I paid and he was over the moon happy. Said he spent the entire weekend listening to music for the first time since he was a kid. I'm so glad there are people like Thomas here putting out helpful videos so people may enjoy and continue to enjoy audio. It's meant to be an experience you feel, those pesky emotions aren't always a hindrance as much as I deny it. Keep enjoying, people.
I can’t talk about preamps or gear because I haven’t owned enough. But, pulling my speaker away from the wall and adding treatments to my room have made big changes in soundstage. Having bass traps in the corner, carpet on the floor, curtains and plants behind speakers are all things that made a big difference.
I’m dumping my Sonos system.So far I have a pair of B&W 805 Matrix,A pair of B&W 605 S2,a B&W Nautilus center channel,and an original pair of Rogers Ls3/5a 11 ohm.Any amplifier recommendation would be greatly appreciated,I’m thinking 5 channel with a good avr.
Excellent video! In my experience there are two kinds of high level soundstage presentations. One is the traditional: we can see the lips moving, the drumskin vibrating, and able to portray smaller scale music with pinpoint accuracy. The other (Altec / big horns, or big omnidirectional speakers) can project a whole orchestra or a big rock soundstage accurately. For example, you know whether you are at the first row or on the balcony, and you can hear the singers moving on the stage in every direction - back and front, left to right, kneel down, and hear as they turn as the sing. Well, you an hear this with pinpoint-speakers as well, but there you hear small puppets in a confined space and not flesh and blood human size beings on a real stage. Or, you are at an actual Pink Floyd concert in a big arena, in the crowd, not listening to tiny porcelain people shouting and playing on your carpet. The Altec way projects small scale music bigger than life. Yet, I have to say when I close my eyes, its presentation of singers and instruments is closer to real instruments / real people talking in the room than the hyper-pinpoint-holographic presentation of common speakers - real people / instruments do not sing / play with hyper-realism nor holography - the live sound projects and radiates, it is not held in a confined space. The pinpoint-projector speakers create a miniature rendering of a full orchestra - while very exciting, it's nothing like a real orchestra or the representation of orchestra by big horns. I personally prefer the big Altec way as its scale is more life-like, but also have a second system for the smaller scale projection with "regular" speakers, which cannot deliver large scale but excel at intimate moments. I think the two imaging methods are complementing each other, varietas delectat, with very different perspectives and different moods. One night I want to be at the opera, and another morning I want to listen to the archlute in quiet contemplation.
@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, the best aspect of the audio journey is to share knowledge and experience, and find like-minded friends. You also give me a lot to think about, and have a superb equipment review style that is very helpful for audiophiles at all levels. Janos
Hey Thomas. At this point I'm starting to do the math for room acoustic calculations because I can appreciate that experimenting can only take one so far. This video was great; I believe you. Edit: I'm hearing a lot lately (maybe I'm focussing on it more?) about the power of room acoustics. Gene and his team is doing that with guests like Anthony Grimaldi over at Audioholics. There are other channels. I think that this is a growth area, especially for sound lovers who are ready to mature into an untapped area. I used to work in a boutique electronics shop in Toronto back in the day (Kromer Radio), and although sure that our top guys knew about it, I never heard anything about it. So yeah, I want to maximize the most import thing I have, my space, because my audio equipment is good enough for now (NAD amps, flagship YAMAHA AVR, PSB Image XT2 towers, etc). I have a small 300 sq. ft. perfectly L-shaped space. The "L" is 11' 'thick' and 19' in the two directions. Easy enough to visualize. So it's narrow, especially when you consider the virtual hallway space, so it means we only have 8 feet of play space for the speakers, outside to outside. I have experienced what for me is a satisfying soundstage. In fact, I really like it considering the room constraints. The speakers (front-ported narrow towers placed very close to the back and side walls, like a foot away each side) are about 6.5' apart at the center of the drivers, and oriented slightly asymmetrically (both in toe in and position) depending on listening positions. So I appreciated your point about asymmetry. It makes a noticable difference, but I find acoustic panelling makes for even a greater impact on the soundstage. I noticed a few touched on that point. Of course all things taken together, right? I don't have to tell you about panelling, but in my little experience the image becomes more focussed and apparent, sound is more dynamic (because of the reflections are being addressed) in a sweet way, all the while still maintaining the large stage. About the imaging. I like it. Voice is about the size I'd expect (eyes closed), and stays between the speakers even if I'm sitting on axis in front of one of them. But I can't see the lips or imagine walking around the artist/group. I have a Yamaha flagship AVR and really, really enjoy the DSP sound fields, especially Jazz Cellar with jazz music. With the upper front presence speakers playing only the reflected sound of the back wall of the space (while the mains play only the sound as recorded, no DSP - that's how Yamaha works), the stage lifts up (which I like) and moves waaay back behind the back wall of my room. It's really, really nice for me. But then again as you mentioned, I notice the image widens (the singers head becomes wider). I know that you weren't speaking about Yamaha DSP effect, so I'm just saying.
@@ThomasAndStereo No need to reply, T. I'm looking at one of their products as well. Would love to see your video on the use case. I'm considering bi-amping down the road, as Paul Barton speaks to the advantages but doesn't provide instruction, naturally. I think it requires some understanding and purpose. What's your experience with the practice? If you address this down the road in some video (and I'll check to see if you have already), that would be great. Also, do you see yourself maybe going down the road of adding an instructional component to your videos (not that you need to, but I mean less so through story-telling or equipment reviews and more about this idea of maximizing what we already have). I'd like to learn more about equipment matching with an eye to room treatments and things like DSP, bi-amping. If an amp is a great amp and a speaker is a great speaker, despite the special sonic blend, should they not offer an attractive presentation nevertheless? (I know, I know! Can of worms! Lol). But at my level it just doesn't make sense. It seems like the fuss (yes, this neophyte is saying fuss) is the bane of the audiophile world. Isn't it really? Or do I need to go to my room? I mean, of course you may need choose a suitable amp for the speakers/space so that it drives the potential while remaining stable, but other than that?
Hi Thomas, I actually prefer discussions over reviews, it gives a lot more insight into how to get the most of what you have and it doesn't cost any more. Take Care
Also, does just adding a sub (or two) to standmount speakers correct the scaling issue, if things are a little small in the room, or will the sound still be small, but with big bass?
Great video discussion Thomas. Do you think there’s a trade off between soundstage and weight of tones within the soundstage? In other words, the bigger the soundstage (where instruments are placed or perceived to be well outside the speakers) the leaner the sound of instruments? Thanks.
My soundstage is truly three dimensional. Musical instruments and other sound sources are spread out in a large arc in front of me with the arc's angle ranging from 45 degrees to 90 degrees. Sound images exist to the left and right, extending well beyond the limits of the loudspeakers and all the way to the extreme left and right even beyond the left and right walls. I experience a sonic sound depth of 10 to 20 feet with sound images clearly floating behind and from time to time, in front of the speakers.
BTW, Broccoli isn't a punishment, its' high in Omega 3 for a vegetable and doesn't spike your blood sugar. It will keep you and your ears healthy. There's high end eating just as there's high end audio.
I had a square room , optonica sa5206. And cheap, $ 69 per pair realistic mc1200 speakers. Mounted on custom shelves exactly 6 ft high, and exactly centered on opposing wall, and it was kickass hi fi
Acoustics, acoustics, acoustic.Them speakers, speakers, speakers. I listening mostly Lps, so cartridges for details and frequency reproduction. Finally, turntables for rhythm.
Thanks man! Excellent video! Thanks for including setup cds. I hope to make my systems even better with some of those👍 What were the white modules behind Mr. Vintage's systems... batteries modules? It's amazing that he can turn used systems into Master systems. Did you buy the Girshmans?
@@ThomasAndStereo the owner of GR Research did a video and basically said battery power is the way to go since its always consistent and doesn't get affected by noisy AC based on surroundings (city,neighbors, buildings...). He said batteries and power cables mainly make a difference with source equipment (dac,preamp, etc..)Not so much of an impact for amps when compared to the source equipment. DarTZeel`s preamp uses a battery for power, they last 10-12 hours. Let us know what kind of batteries in your next info video✌️👍
Usually those calibration tool do help to improve certain things but there is a limit. For example, it does not solve the first point of reflection problem. If you don't solve that, your center image will never be laser sharp.
Most impact was switching to a tube amp. i run a boyourange MT 34 push pull tube amp and alternate between that and a Schiit Vidar. Tube amp ahs a much better sound stage but Vidar is better for high energy rock and rool music. It's interesting going A/B on the two amps. The Vidar is better with Saxaphone, the MT 34 is better with Trumpet. MT 34 is excellent with violin and viola, Vidar is amazing with Bass and Cello. I am really thinking about trying something like a Doge 10 to see if I can get the best of both worlds. Also, speaker positioning and getting the subwoofer dialed in and correctly located was huge.
Yeah, if I remember correctly, the Doge 10 should be able to rival the Vidar in terms of energy or maybe more. Yeah, tubes will definitely enhance the soundstage.
There's some good results using tube pre and a solid state amp, if you wanted to venture into it. Best of both worlds. Just make sure your tube pre output is correct for the amp input. The problem you run into is when the impedances of each are too far off. That's where the tube preamp buffers come into utilization. You want at least 1/10th, very least, the pre output impedance of the amplifier input impedance. Also some preamp have rather hot output gains, so you want to watch that. And some tubes are rather horrible until they warm up, which can have undesirable results.
@@irzyxelwj I have considered sellinbg my Emotiva UMC 200 Pre AMp and upgrading to a Freya S. but I think my better bet is to put a really good tube integrated amp into the upstairs system and leave the MT 34 and Vidar in the downstairs system.
Highly precise positioning seems to be paramount, provided that the speakers themselves don't have time or diffraction issues. This is extremely easy tondemonstrate in a small listening room such as mine which measures 10'x10'. Magnepans can vanish and present shocking depth, width that wraps around you, and not lose focus. Move one corner of a speaker 2mm and the illusion is broken.
What about the other extreme? when I listen to the typical small dome tweeter the "mouth" sits on a horizontal line 1" high. It might get a nice horizontal fixed position for imaging. But instead of being too high/ large, it is only that thin line. And then the position blur at crossover points. When I got back into Maggies a few years ago my son (he has a good system himself) said after literally seconds of hearing them that he now knew what was wrong with every other speaker system he has ever listened to. Yes especially with the recording micing you can get a 6' mouth. But if you go to most performances it will have a sound reinforcement system with a 10' mouth. But when I get a really good mic'ed vocal (e.g. Red Headed Stranger, Willie Nelson) you can see his tonsils!
Speaker placement...Get them away from the wall behind them. Get them the proper distance from your listening position and the correct distance apart. Get them at the right height. Toe in as needed. Enjoy
It looks like you covered some parts of the Sumiko Master set speaker placement in this discussion.(Bob Robbins perfected it). I am still a little baffled, why its not a more common knowledge, at least among audiophiles. If u ask me, this guide should be delivered with every sirious speaker which is being sold. Kind Regards!
Thomas, who does not know, who Mr. Vintage is?!? Seriously, i think the most important startingpoint is the match of the room and the speakers. Treating the room is for perfecting the match but not a solution of a mismatch. Sure you should choose a speaker which fit your needs and butget, but if it does not fit the room, start over. My experience: I moved 7 times in the last 24 years with the same speakers. So I can not stress enough the impact, the room has to the performance of the system.
