Dominion War : Starfleet Warships and Romulan Internal Assassinations 

When the Defiant was introduced, it was stated that a Romulan officer was to live on the Defiant to monitor the cloaking device and send info back to Romulus. By the end of that episode, the Romulan officer simply disappeared and was never mentioned again. Funny that.

mabey the romulan empire wanted to see if there cloak would be effective without loosing any romulan ships

The Dominion and the Borg were the only existential threats to the federation, so yeah... They will act strangely! 😂

USS DEFIANT aka BENJAMIN SISKO'S RIGHTEOUS MOTHERFU*KIN´ PIMP HAND

They left the Defiant intact and I believe that’s when the changeling was put on the one that went after Zenkethy space

"...recommission the USS Defiant, bringing it out of moth balls. This ship would be classified as a...wait for it...Defiant class ship." *Surprised Pikachu face*

I'd like to point out that sending the defiant to find the founders would make sense in that there was no embassy or formal diplomatic channels. And asking the gotta for example for an audience with the founders would be ignored, using a ship like defiant would also make sense given the tendencies of the dominion. Plus as a reminder the mission was to try an secure peace.

The original shows the Enterprise was called a heavy cruiser

The Founders had infiltrated Starfleet and were setting them up to justify war so they could gain allies amongst the Federations rivals. Just charging in and stomping Starfleet without cause would make the rest of the 'Alpha' powers nervous (even those that hated the Federation), but doing so in _self defense or with provocation_ would make others less adverse to the Dominion. If *The Sisko* hadn't played dirty [and that was a small scale operation, not going through Starfleet headquarters where it could be sabotaged by a Changeling - BTW look forward to your video on *In the Pale Moonlight,* possibly the best DS9 episode] the Dominion would have probably gotten the Romulans onside. There may even have been a Dominion plot to get the Romulans to join, but it was a slow burn and wasn't ready yet. Remember that Romulan Senator _("Its a Faaaaaaake")_ had just come from Dominion Cardassia, there was a seduction in the works. And Starfleet becoming a military dictatorship, while thrilling all the 40K "For the Emperor" fans, would be a disaster for the Federation's PR. "See, the veil is lifted, their claims of moral superiority were always a lie". And it would cripple the Federation with infighting and once again make neutral powers more predisposed to the Dominion. The Founders play a long game, they may have set the Federation up to be bad guys knowing they could win a straight up fight [they never analysed Starfleet *_plot_*_ armour_ ] and were planning for the long term and after winning against the Federation, knowing that taking on everyone at once was a more difficult proposition. And the Federation had to be first as the wormhole was in their territory and they were the best alliance makers, and thus greatest challenge. After all the Federation _modus operandi_ would have been to send a request for diplomatic negotiations (with a Weyoun) from the mouth of the Wormhole, and have a treaty specifying borders (with an *apology* for unknowingly violating Dominion territory earlier…) and possible trade rights ect. [Hell, with the Cardassian treaty as a model, the Federation might seed Bajor to the Dominion, or at least DS9 and the wormhole]. And a treaty would still play for the Dominion as Changelings secretly play merry hell with Alpha politics and later get invited to help stabilize during the grand Alpha war between the Romulans/Cardassians and Federation/Klingons (with minor powers drawn in as well) that they secretly arranged. If the Dominion just wanted the Alpha powers out of their territory, they would set up their own counterpart to DS9 at their end of the wormhole, along with a battle fleet to back it up (a couple of Jem'hadar Battle Cruisers) and have every visiting ship dock there and get bureaucracied to death. _"Respect my authoritah."_ The one serious advantage Starfleet had was *Section 31* was so secret that not even Starfleet knew about it, so that meant the Dominion didn't either. And Section 31 definitely had anti Changeling (and anti infiltration of any foe) measures set up. They were already on guard against alpha rivals and alien incursion like the Brain bugs (and what did Section 31 know at the time?), so they were possibly the only Alpha intelligence agency free of Dominion influence. But besides plot armour and techno wizardry (which Gul Dukat warned them about …"Never _underestimate_ Starfleet engineers"…he'd probably read that Humanity Fuck Yeah post on humans are Doc Brown's) the Federation had a couple of Gods on their side - The wormhole aliens and Q, remember he's the ultimate reason that Starfleet designed a whole bunch of different warship just a few years earlier. Although it was brilliant of the Dominion to reverse engineer the superior Defiant class ship they had captured, along with its cloak. When those swarmed through the Alpha quadrant, which was in flames after those False Flag Starfleet attacks on rival… Q sips a earl grey and says to the himself … "Sisko, you owe me for this, but then you're so entertaining and easy to provoke. And I couldn't stand to see Picard killed, I'm fond of the little blighter".

I love Garak's face on the close up when they realize they are outnumbered, it was a trap, and they done fucked up!

I think the defiant is the first Federation ship built specifically to fight, the Constellation and older classes were not built only for fighting.

Your videos are SOOO good. They're the highlight of my day.

I kind of object to the notion that the Federation was willfully ignoring the territory of the Dominion during exploration with the Defiant. We are never told the scope of the Dominion's holdings, and the systems within (relatively) short travel of the wormhole held no planets or outposts that claimed Dominion Allegiance. In fact, so much of the space surrounding the wormhole was (apparently) unaffiliated territory that no one in the Alpha Quadrant even knew what the Dominion WAS for at least a few years. And given the total lack of information, the destruction of a number of ships and Bajoran colonies, and no one from the Dominion offering any kind of details other than "Don't cross the wormhole," it makes total sense to not only perform reconnaisance, but perform it with a ship that actually stands a fighting chance. Until they located the Founders or figured out how the Dominion operated, for all they knew the Jem'Hedar were the trigger-happy members of some kind of loose systems confederation or alliance, and the Dominion's "territory" were just the boundaries of each member's occupied space or trading sphere of influence. If that had been the case, it would have made total sense for them to skulk about unseen, trying to avoid the more jumpy members of the alliance until they found somebody reasonable to talk to. If the Dominion really didn't want people traipsing over all their shit, they really should've put up "Now Entering Dominion Space" signs somewhere...

And lets not forget to blame Section 31 for every plot and moral inconsistency in Star Trek.

Great points. I've thought for awhile that "The Search" mission was more akin to a Section 31 operation than a Starfleet assignment. Also, did anyone check the cloaking device for other Romulan surprises before it was installed? Or was the "loan" actually a S31 cloak with a fake cover story?

Now THIS is my type of youtube channel. Awesome video my dude. Subscribed.

You know... it just dawned on me that the federation is exactly like the borg except the feds are more like a peaceful invasion force. War isnt the only way to conquer another civilisation, in fact a slower process of gradual assimilation into your own culture is far more effective and less costly. We've seen it in history over and over again, like here in the UK when we were invaded by vikings, instead of trying to remove them from our lands we instead assimilated them into our culture and taught them our values and way of doing things and in time, a few generations their old way of life was wiped out and they became anglicised. The only difference is the borgs method of assimilation is allot faster.

Best quote ever: "And you thought Discovery lacked morals..." Love it.

Another hostile incursion into Dominion space. No wonder it all ended in war.

Coming from a staunch Trek fan. That intro is above reproach. Excellent.

Ayyyyye the boy said regardless instead of irregardless 👌🏽💯💯💯

What if after the destruction if the Odyssey Starfleet had gone *"fuuuuuck"* and immediately closed the wormhole afterwards (sorry Bajoran prophets), or come up with the minefield plan asap and basically blocked all access (although they would have to guard against Changelings hiding in the Alpha quadrant from trying to dismantle it, and general longterm complacency). Assuming it works, the Dominion knows of the Federation and the rest of Alpha powers, but can't reach them. And the Federation knows that there's a power out there that could slaughter it with ease and had an absolute commitment to victory at any cost (they didn't know they had plot armour). That would shake them to the core… _oh the _*_Borg threat,_*_ right._ In the long term it appears the Dominion is stagnant and doesn't change except to counterpunch, while the Federation innovates, adapts and advances regularly, in great leaps. In fact in a couple of years they will have slipstream drives and a massive weapons upgrade (which the Borg Queen assimilated from Admiral Janeway - the Sphere in the conduit had adapted. So there's no point in limiting its introduction to prevent Borg adaption, that nanoprobe had already sailed). At some point in the future (maybe a century or even less?) they will expand to or at least explore the Gamma quadrant. With foreknowledge of the Dominion, telepaths (and technology?) to detect any Changeling substitutions, and they will have ships that can shrug off any Dominion attack while one shoting their Battlecruisers while the Dominion won't be even able to reach the Alpha quadrant. _Prove me wrong._

As far as I'm concerned Sisko single handedly started the war when the JemHdar warned them to stay out of Dominion territory, and SIsko replied "If you think we're going to stop coming through the Wormhole you're crazy."

So I like your videos. I never seen deep space nine, bit I might now. This sounds facinating as heck

Some good theories, highlighting the many plot holes in DS9 always wondered why the Obsidian order and Tal shiar were both so easily disposed of to suit the plot line even though through cannon they were both feared, paranoid,diligent intelligence organisations who both compartmentalised everything and trusted no one where all to happy to join forces build a massive fleet to go through the worm hole and attack the perceived home world of the founders when throughout their history they have both manipulated others to achieve their goals through espionage and subterfuge. Classic CIA,MI6 tactics and remaining in the shadows

As always, very Nice work: in this STD era, you and SOME others youtuber bring forth the STAR TREK legacy for us,trekkies.

Loved your t-shirt idea about “how the oberth sucks”

The Odyssey was taken out in the season 2 finale. The Defiant went looking for the Founders in the season 3 opening 2-parter. DS9 seems to have gaps of 2-3 months between seasons. I'd have to check the stardates of the episodes to give an accurate time difference, but it was nowhere near a full year.

*Speculation* so, you often lampoon the idea that Starfleet lacked warships prior to the Defiant. I think there’s actually a pretty simple justification for that perceived inconsistency. And that is simply that Starfleet vessels are probably modular and highly modifiable. The many Miranda variants speaks to that, as well as refits to vessels like the Constitution, Galaxy, and Nebula classes. Given time, Starfleet could likely quickly place a fleet on a more warlike footing. Defiant is the first pure warship. It has no modifications or variants that place it on an exploratory or scientific focus. At least that’s my thought.

While i agree that had situations been reversed it would have looked bad you have to factor in that the federation had by then used EVERY other means of contacting the founders openly so this was a last resort. So had the situation been reversed communication and dialog would have been opened long ago.

Minor point. Both 'good guys' and 'bad guys' engage in espionage. So the fact that Starfleet would be pissed at the Dominion or Kardassia over them doing the same to them is, well, politics. The moral argument to be made(if there is one) is does the 'good guys' stopping the 'bad guys' justify the approach. Not whether the approach is moral or not.

I'd hate to be in the Dominion....rules, rules, rules

Makes sense because in the episode, "Jem'dar" (spelled wrong) the Jem'hdar Soldier mentioned he to Sisko and Quark and then the remaining crew on DS9 that information about the Alpha/Beta Quadrants is gained everyday.

Those Galaxy class ships were made so that the saucer section could be removed when you knew ahead of time you were going to battle. The star drive section became a formidable battleship. If the U.S.S Galaxy had gone in there in battleship mode, she might have had a chance.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "Anakin, the shapeshifters are evil!" Anakin: "From my point of view, Starfleet is evil!"

The Romulans probably saw star fleets aggressiveness and so gifted them an obsolete cloaking device to hope that the Dominion would discover the Federation intruders and lead to war. What better way to weaken your enemies then to help cause a war between two of them. lets not forget that the Federation didnt use cloaking because of a ridiculous treaty they signed, not because they couldn't make one. So the Romulans wouldn't hesitate to give them a cloaking device

Also love the new opening

_As I mentioned in my essay* …_ It was brilliant of the Dominion to *reverse engineer* the _superior_ Defiant class ship they had captured, and its cloaking technology (along with putting a secret transponder and remote shutoff on the original). When those swarmed through the Alpha quadrant, which was in flames after those cloaked _False Flag_ Starfleet attacks on rival… * I buried this way down in my epic rant stating with… _"The Founders had infiltrated Starfleet and…"_

To be fair though, the founders did infiltrate the alpha quadrant powers, which probably took some time and did start after the discovery of the wormhole.

If I take any starfleet ship, remove labs and add a few more weapons, is that a warship or a ship used for war, or battle ship, if with other ships is it a battleship or just in a formation guarding the Klingon border region?

Well in star trek 3 Klingon second in command. Did say and I quote " federation Battlecruiser." Sounds like a ship of war to me.

I wouldn’t call that a continuity error. In sixty years or so the federation came to embrace a utopian fallacy about its own history. So it is not surprising that they ignored the military realities of their own past.

I don't think the Romulans would give their cold war enemy the latest tech. I think they gave them 20 year old tech easier to forget about.

@Lore Reloaded they did bring it up again in the episode where Romulans tried to destroy DS9 in season 3 "Visionary" from Memory Alpha: "In the wardroom, Ruwon proclaims that the Dominion is the greatest threat the Alpha Quadrant has seen in the last century and wants to know exactly what Sisko and his crew have obtained through use of their cloaking device on the USS Defiant. When the commander admits they know very little of the Dominion, Karina responds, asking about Odo, incorrectly referring to him as a Founder. She believes he can tell them all they need to know about the Dominion, though Major Kira soon corrects her, informing her that Odo may be a Changeling but he is not a Founder and wants nothing to do with them. The commander backs her up by telling them it is the truth, "whether they chose to believe it or not". Ruwon reminds Sisko that they agreed to install the cloaking device in exchange for information on the Dominion, but they have received very little so far. He goes on to demand every piece of information Starfleet has on them no matter how insignificant, including any classified reports made to Starfleet Command. Sisko says he will have to clear it with his superiors first."

I think after the problems that caused the uss pegasus to be part of an asteroid so the phasing cloak was a prototype and obviously dangerously unstable to a ships plasma distribution system so that's why they opted for a romulan cloaking device which is stable and reliable.

The Defiant is the Federation's first warship, it even predates the Federation as it was established in ST:Enterprise.

Lore.... Ships of War or warships... Maybe the first in star trek are standard class ships retrofitted for war... Per example add more shielding, weapons etc. But can be retro fitted back to explorer ships. While warships always where warships. Example.. Galaxy class is a exploration ship. In ds9 they got heavy retrofits to fight the Dominion so they became ships of war.

An interesting theory and one not without merit. As mentioned in the video, we can neither confirm it nor deny it, but Founder-Dominion infiltration could be behind the escalating direction in which the Federation - Dominion relations were heading. There are alternatives though. As mentioned by that Son'a guy in Insurrection, the Federation has been challenged in the last decade by virtually every major power they encountered, the Borg and the Dominion being the most prominent ones. This was a far cry from the peaceful decades that predated the TNG, or the so cold Golden Era of the UFP. As such, it's not that hard to imagine the top brass of Federation and Star Fleet "to have had enough" and finally started taking a more proactive approach to dealing with potential threats. We even had that episode in DS9 when there was an actual conspiracy to turn SFC into a more military based organisation and apply what would effectively be a Martial Law across the UFP. So.....who knows? Maybe the Feds were genuinely scared when they sent that Galaxy class vessel on that ill fated task....

I suspect the federation was heavily comprised by the worms we saw only once in tng, dominion (the reason for alot of odd behavior before and during the war), and the founders still have other changleings floating around that havnt returned yet, I suspect tuvok is one

If you mix a cup of changeling with a teaspoon of honey it makes a soothing beverage.

Space politics, future problems with future solutions. damn, I love this series!!

From what I've been able to see in DS9, StarFleet is fighting according to Cardassian aggression, which may or may not be pushed on by the Dominion. The Dominion not having to to commit resources they do not want to expend and can not afford to replace until they have control of the wormhole again. I again state the Dominion wanted this war. It would be no great thing for the Dominion to simply post a couple of of their battle groups on their side of the Wormhole and give any trespassers 10 seconds to turn around and go back or die. I fact doing so would defuse the war before it got particularly bad. But because the Dominion fully committed to a war of annihilation and/or conquest they wanted the war, to the point of stranding an expeditionary fore what the general capacity to prevail if they attain the proper resources. Becasue DS9 is not a wider view of the war, it is very hard to say whether Starfleet is or is not playing their correct "character". But any reasonable civilization that did not really want war would not do all the Dominion did in the Alpha and Beta quadrants. Of course this could also be seen as a cautionary tale about the use of disposable "robotic" weapon systems, the Jem'Hadar and Vorta. Make no mistake they are little more than "robots made of meat", which the less advanced Alpha and Beta quadrants repeated fail to recognize.

Where did you get the information saying that it was a year between the destruction of the Odyssey and the introduction of the defiant.

Shocked the dominion considered fed possible threat sending first galaxy class then "warship" into gamma reinforcing their fear of a new enemy

I am pretty sure, that the Dominion knew pretty early on, that the Federation was present in the gamma quadrant. I think, due to the nature of the founders, they were merely studying the new visitors and see how they would behave so close to their own territory, if they didn't allready knew federation existed, that is. This way the founders could easily gather intel, untill they saw fit to show at least their emisaries to establish official Dominion Federation contact.

I wonder why the Dominion didn't take the cloaking device out of the Definite for themselves. It would have given them another tactical advantage.

Forgetting that a Romulan officer was posted to use and monitor the cloaks use and insure its secrecy. Add to that the Federation would be breaking their treaty with the Romulans if used a Starfleet version of a cloak. The issue is how the Romulan atteche got written out of the show after a few episodes thus causing the continuity issues.

I always figured they used the Romulan cloak because it was the only way to not violate the Treaty of Algeron and keep the Romulans from becoming enraged once again (or continuing to be enraged) after they found out about the phased cloak. I always assumed that diplomats must have negotiated something - and a large part of it would surely be that they won't ever use the phase cloak again. I also tend to disagree that once they lose a Galaxy class starship they're going to just go in their waiving flags of peace. Your mileage may vary though.

You are correct on all accounts. One reason why DS9 is not my favorite Star Trek serien, but TNG is, is the fact that Starfleet acts so wildly out of character. Ignoring foreign territory claims, looking the other side when genocide is about to happen, killing a romulan senator to trick the romulans into a war etc. This is not Star Trek, it is not Star Fleet. I think that the producers and others pushed for a more ruthless and action packed series. This will be expanded by the "new" Star Trek movies, which are not Star Trek in my book, and the aweful Discovery garbage which again is a wildly different timeline because the inconsistencies pile up mountain high and cannot be reconciled without getting really crazy.

the thing is you do not have go through a client state and hack unman satelite to talk to the federation

For the Defiant though that was their first ship designed specifically to fight battles. It has none of the amenities that even the old Constitution Class had. It barely had I sickbay that could treat more than a splinter. I highly doubt even Captain Sisko had private quarters on the Defiant. It was a very bare bones ship that was designed to do one thing and only one thing. Virtually all of the other vessels that Starfleet used for multi-purpose vessels.

One thing not covered is there was an agreement supposedly between The Romulans and Starfleet that the cloak only be used IN the Gamma Quadrent, clearly they decided to scrap that agreement not long after. I also always wondered why they didn't just partner with the Klingons (their allies at the time) for cloaking technology. I get that Klingon cloaks were likely vastly inferior to the ones used by the Romulans but given that Romulan Cloaking Tech was constantly evolving the Defiants cloak was likely an older outdated unit no longer used in the Romulan Fleet. Why give your supposed enemy your latest tech afterall.

I think its a good theory. But I never understood why, after the pale moon light, the federation didn't renogoatiate (sorry dyslexia so spelling bad) the treaty with Romulus to allow them to create and use clocking tech. If I was say admiral Ross the first thing I would say to the diplomatic team. "Go get me clocks legally now, or I'll set Sisko on you all" thus scaring the bejuses outs them and bang the starfleet has clocks.

6:41 Wasn’t the Pegasus an Oberth? Maybe that’s why the phasing cloak was never brought up again.

Whoa whoa whoa... does the Oberth class REALLY suck, I mean, it went toe to toe with a borg cube and... I don't remember seeing it get blown up

Let’s not forget that before the Federation sent a galaxy class starship Through the Wormhole, the JemHadar captured commander Cisco and quark, also, a Jemhadar provided Major Kira with a list of colonies they had already destroyed in the gamma quadrant. I failed to see how you could make an argument that the Federation were the aggressors after that.

The Defiant crew didn't bribe the Karemma. The ambassador wanted payment for a means to contact the Founders. He gave them the location of the relay station. As far as the crew knew, it was a public access terminal. Then again it could have all been part of their plot to embarrass SF.

T-shirt battle speed 😂

Actually the cloak was brought a few times even having the romulan government come to ds9 for the intel

I don't think there can be a question that as of the unwarranted attacks by the Dominion on Federation planets and citizens, not to mention the destruction of the Odyssey, a state of war existed between the Dominion and the Federation. With that in mind, sending a scouting ship deep behind enemy lines to gather intelligence is a reasonable and prudent action. It's aggressive in much the same way that hitting back after you've been punched in the face is aggressive. The Dominion's actions started the conflict, not the Federations.

You hit the nail on the head with the premise the federation was the aggressor. You dont send a ship that's OP as fuck to try make peace after 1 of your best gets spanked. Now and I am sure you are aware the federation names the 1st ship in any class after that class.

To be fair the defiant was the failed concept ship. It was a mothballed corvette before O'Brien get his mits on it. I always find it anoying that more defiant class were produced when the lore suggests that the saber was basically the production model of the concept.

First of all, I love DS9.. I believe it is the Best Star Trek Series. With that said, think you are wrong.. The Federation isn't to blame, The Dominion is. Why? Because the Dominion F*cked with The Sisko... One does not F*ck with The Sisko and get away with it... (Call Back) No, I always wondered why the Federation acted so rashly..

Undiscovered Country said nothing about dismantling the fleet. What was being dismantled was outposts and Starbases along the Federation-Klingon Neutral Zone. The Khitomer Treaty was essentially a non-agression treaty. Which later evolved to a mutual defense pact.

The cloaking device that the Romulans "loaned" the Federation for the Defiant was likely one that was a generation or two behind their current technology and one that they almost certainly had some method of detecting. "Loaning" an older cloaking device in this manner would serve the Romulans in several ways.. ~ Per the terms of their agreement with Starfleet, they receive intelligence from the Gamma Quadrant without any risk to themselves. ~ By "Loaning" a cloaking device to the Federation, they maintain the current treaty terms which restrict the Federation from developing/utilizing their own cloaking technology. Failing to "loan" the Federation a cloaking device at that time might have forced Starfleet's hand and pushed them towards violating the treaty and developing/using a cloak of their own, which is definitely ~not~ in the Empire's best interests. ~ By "loaning" them an older cloaking device, they are not only not at risk of it being used successfully against themselves, but by allowing the Federation to examine this older cloak they in turn promote misinformation about their degree of development of their cloaking technology which in turn causes the Federation to underestimate the Empire's true capabilities. And the plot point of the "loaned" cloaking device ~is~ brought up again in a later episode when a Romulan delegation arrives on DS9 for a briefing/update of the intelligence that the Defiant has accumulated from the Gamma Quadrant .

If each season of DS9 is a year then The Jem'Hadar is at the end of one year and The Search part 1 the start of the next, so the time scale between the destruction of the USS Odyssey and the deployment of the Defiant is at most a few months, not a year.

I always thought that ds9 writers wanted to include a romulan regular in the cast and that's why defiant came with cloaking device and romulan officer. Maybe after filming that episode they decided to ditch the character as they didn't know how to handle her (Edington was also a victom of that treatment; he was devised as a security counterpart to Odo, but quickly pushed to background and remade into Maquis, which was out of character for him - member when he sabotaged Defiant, chosing to obey orders instead helping the crew?). Writers wanted another alien addition to ds9 and that's why finally worf landed in the show. It's funny, how in ENT there was T'Pol, a pointy eared aline female officer... Also, the thought if that female romulan would became a regular and then in next season Worf would come. Their infighting would be funny... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand klingon on romulan action! :) PS. Imagine all cool Odo vs Edington crime mysteries episodes we never got. Shame.

The Romulans already knew the federation had cloak from the previous next generation episode. Giving them the cloak allowed them to have a look at how starfleet would implement a cloak in there ship rather then using a phase cloak. That is why they would go ahead an do it.

Right, but that phase cloak was illegal and destroyed 😉 Absolutely correct the fed is always in the white hats Great video 👍

The Defiant was a monitor model/class/type of vessel (Defiant Class) as opposed to the Heavy Cruisers like the Enterprise NCC-1701. I don't know what a ship like the Galaxy class Enterprise D or the Odyssey would be. The USS Vengeance from Star Trek Into Darkness being a Dreadnought

Considering the very first episode Sisko commits Extortion (felony) then goes to him starting a war with the Dominion and then gets worse ..... He belonged in a penal colony , not in command of a space station .

Didn't the Federation try sending The Grand Nagus to form talks to no avail. They tried several times but could not locate any founders to discuss anything. Thus the covert salution to get their attention and start talks.

I think it's entirely possible that Romulan Seska (who was babysitting the cloaking device) was a changeling.

Xcept...shut down wormhole...and no threat...except they wanted to conquer

interesting theory

"Romulans have no honor!" -Prolly Worf

they tried pulling a Matthew Calbraith Perry and failed twice

The shapeshifters presented a real danger tho. Bioengineering species, and thought everyone was beneath them

Its just my head cannon but have you considerd that Sisko was section 31.

Anyone know if there is a difference between romulan & Klingon cloak (lore wise lol)

Federation did not lack the science and the technology to build cloaking devices, the only hindrance was the treaty with Romulan and Klingon Empires

But there may have been a Tal Shiar, operative on board the USS Enterprise E who saw the phase cloak

HEY! War canoes did the best when they were used, Oberths often would burst into flames at the mere sight of a armed klingon soldier. On the surface of a planet. 3 parsecs away.

Please do a lore about star trek discovery es 5 and tng the skin of evil are they the same race

How do we get a full year since The Jem'hadar? That was the end of one season, this is the start of the next. Wouldn't the end of the third season be a year from the end of the second- not the start of the third season? That could be up to a few days later; the equivalent of going from the last week of December to the first week of January.

The Federation is always hypocritical.

The starfleet was super powerful. But it had three main weaknesses. Given time they could adapt. However they couldn't fight a long term war indefinitely. Man power shortage Pride. The aura of being untouchable big dog on the lawn. Along comes the borg and dominion. Had the founders not closed the wormhole and the Romulans joined the war, the federation would've been defeated

Even though they used it the phase cloak was unstable

Starfleet was made to look like the aggressor by the Dominion. That's what the Dominion tried to do the whole time and they even tried to infiltrated the leaders to make them look worse

The Romulans weren't so much giving the Federation cloaking _technology_ , so much as they gave them a single cloaking _device_ . The distinction is important because as we've seen, cloaking technology is just shy of trivial to develop. The Federation didn't have cloaking tech because of technical difficulties, but rather, because of a treaty that forbade them doing so. The Federation even had a superior model that was developed in secret, with limited resources, before the Romulans ever dared to try it, themselves. No, the reason the Romulans gave the Federation one of their cloaking devices was so that the Federation wouldn't go off a second time trying to do it behind their backs, and they could control access to it, set limits on its usage, and get something in return. Further, with one of their own devices on board the Defiant, they may be able to track it, even cloaked.