Starfleet Officer: "Sir, we should really station a fleet at Deep Space Nine. Doesn't even need to be a big fleet, like with a Galaxy class. We could just take one of our fighters, upscale them, and plop on done of the Intrepid saucers that we've gone laying around-" Admiral: "no." Officer: "why?" Admiral: "Do you have any idea of narrative tension? We must make it so DS9 is always vulnerable so there is a sense of danger!"
Boisegang starfleet could have at least deployed dozens torpedo and phaser satellites (which we know they had) around the mouth of the wormhole in a “kill box formation” I literally can not stand the happy clappy everyone is wonderful starfleet
@@Marcus51090 This. Plus build a large fighter hanger that could dock with an upper pylon. Station a 100 or so Peregrine. With a small fleet of a few cruisers to add mobile fire power to DS9s already considerable firepower. There would be a good chance that the Dominion wouldn't have been able to take the station at the start of the war.
Terrence Jones the second the mining of the wormhole was decided starfleet and the Klingons should have despastchced a large fleet to protect the wormhole losing the wormhole would a massive strategic loss. The excuse our ships need to strike the dominion ship yards is a piss poor excuse. It’s your usual politicians answer not taking the threats seriously..... the second dominion threatened starfleet a full wartime production should have kicked in Major resources to war science. I wonder if starfleet ever researched warp inhibitor technology blocking ships from jumping to warp Also bajor would be a PEFECT place for a shipyard A shipyard and repair facility (DS9 was never designed for that) I’m talking a full starfleet shipyard and repair station in orbit of bajor would provide much needed jobs to bajor enhance there economy AND having ship construction and repair facilities very close to your enemy is in tactical terms a strategic dream!!!! In short starfleet is run by a bunch of peace loving hippies
@UCJseOOuRLp34y-Oh-EatFCQ agreed they should have posted a fleet. But it didn't even need to be large. I don't doubt for a second that the Klingons/Klingons Feds could have attacked the ships yards, which was smart, and deployed a handful of ships. The Dominion/Cardassians had to call in a reserve fleet. Even if Martok had Dozen Birds of prey and that Feds sent a half dozen Excelsiors, they would have won that battle.
@@terrencejones9817 If I were Sisko, when Dukat called, I would have had O'Brien trace which cruiser the transmission came from and focused every phaser and photon launcher on it until it was dead, which shouldnt take long honestly. Now sure that means letting the smaller ships have free reign to attack for a minute or so, but you also remove one of the most powerful ships from the battle and cut off the head of the enemy. Without Dukat to direct firepower onto the weak points of the station, it would have been a much closer battle
I guess the reason the Federation always left DS9 with only the Defiant was that either they wanted Sisko dead or that they thought that Sisko was that damn good.
You could head canon it into the politics of Starfleet and the Federation - Bajor wasn't a member world (so people were pissy about giving the Bajorans too much without their commitment) and Starfleet Admirals are known sociopaths, so maybe they just wanted to make everyone there suffer and have to work for support. They barely sent a small fleet to support DS9 when the Klingon/Kardashian (I know, making a funny) war started, so I can't see them stationing ships as a permanent picket defense force.
Yeah.. an no reason at all to make it the flag ship of it's own Station defence fleet.... cuz that's not what I'd do if I was in charge of defense there..
The reason that the defiant is able to make it from the battle of sector 001 is because Miles “mother fucking” “macguyver ass” O’ bloody Brian was Chief engineer that day. And he can literally make a warp drive work with a toothpick, a hyperspanner, some of ROM’s earwax and the agony of his tortured existence to ignite the antimatter.
Awww, man! Even though I already know what happens next, you're gonna leave us in suspense like that??? :-) Very good point about Bashir and the negotiations!
Remember DS9 is Bajoran, and in Bajoran space. Anything the Federation has there is at the Bajoran sufferance. So while it's fun to point out starfleets stupidity in not having a fleet at DS9. It's just as likely, if not more so, that it's the Bajorans fault.
The only way i could justify starfleet not posting a small flotila of starships at DS9 on a permanent basis is the possible fine print which they had with the Bajorans to utilise Teraknor as Deep Space Nine. It could possibly be that, to make it clear that the federation are there as fiends and not conquerors (to the recently freed peoples) the Bajorans stipulated that they could only have 3/4 scout class ships (the runnabouts) stationed at DS9, with the rest of the defensive force being supplied by the Bajoran militia, and the fedetation agreed to it (prior to their knowledge of the wormhole). The Defiant could have been wrangled into the agreement after the attempted overthrow of the bajoran goverment by the Circle left the Bajoran milita in disarray (ousting circle sympathisers) coupled with the reports supplied to them by Major Kira about the Jem'hadar attack of their colony (new Bajor) and the destruction of the federation Galaxy Class USS-Odyssey - but this wrangle only being limited to one additional ship, more sturdy than a runnabout, as there wee still some in the bajoran government who viewed the federation as potential invaders. When the Klingons attacked, as far as Bajor was concerend it was a federation problem (eventhough members of the bajoran militai died during the attack whilst defending DS9), so there was no need to alter the treaty - and as we all know from the higher-ups in the federation's handeling of the Maquiee 'maintaining the wording of the treaty is more important than facing the reality of the situation'.
it strikes me as VERY likely that Bajor would have limits on starfleet assists in system. if you listen closely to the series it's pretty clear the Cardassin conquest was more a slow insidious conquest where initally they showed up to "help" and slowly took more and more control. so Bajor'd be cautious about this
Star Trek TNG films and DD9 show are the same universe and continuity, its just that Scimitar and Reman shock troops were clearly a retcon made for the Nemesis film.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that about the Defiant. Picard said it was adrift, but salvageable, probably hundreds of light years away from DS9.
But in Sol space, very little distance from Earth. Not hard to get people to. As for the line "Adrift but salvageable" - the DS9 producers asked for it to be in the movie. They didn't want their ship destroyed by another team that doesn't care about their story.
@@andrebrynkus2055 The point was that the Defiant went from Sol to DS9 in a very short time and was up and running. Also, the other point was that the writing was inconsistent.
I am still wondering where Starfleets attention was needed instead of DS9 when Kira asked him! Some conflict at another end of the federation? As big as federation is with 8000 lightyears one would think they would hav much bigger fleets and enough to cover all around their border and sectors.
I don't think Dukat had any Knowledge of a changeling infiltrator on DS9 tbh , I do believe he knew of future secret plans such as the Klingon Infiltrator though , the Dominion always play they're cards close to the Vest when it Comes to tactical infiltrating certain factions in the Sector ' I believe they were Workin on that Breen prisoner who was with them at the Detention center ! The Founders probably had a Pretty good hunch that the Romulans Would turn at some point and time , they probably didn't expect them to outright join up with the Federation though '.
1 point I'd like to make is that technically Sisko must have been referring to wolf 359(despite 6 years not being that recent), because in the next episode he gives a log entry of 50564.2, which at 1000 stardates a year corresponds to july 25, 2373 while First Contact's 50893.5 would be november 23 of that year, 4 months later. Of course, this was simply a lapse of coordination on the writers part. Ronald D Moore said of it once that "I am not at liberty to reveal the secret messages contained within the seeming "mistaken" stardates, but rest assured that it is another brilliantly conceived and skilfully executed Star Trek moment brought to you by the people who wrote "Meridian"."
Stardates are never consistent and all of the evidence points to 001.. nothing makes sense if its wolf 359..we know they replenished their fleets..we know it happened the same year, etc..etc..
@@LoreReloaded That's pretty much the point of my second paragraph. There are a lot of inconsistencies in trek and I just like nitpicking them. For example I watched Emanations recently and when Janeway tells Paris to warp out of the system he goes to warp and approximately 4 seconds later tells her they're .6 light years away. You could argue there's a time lapse but Tuvok, Torres and Janeway havent moved an inch from where they were before warp. Going by the 1000 ly per year speed we get from Janeway's estimate of their trip back to earth, that trip should have taken over 4 hours. At the speed shown in the episode they would be home in a week. Discovery actually showed a super accurately timed warp jump in 1 episode.
I’d say the Romulans didn’t retaliate sense it would be nothing more but a waste of resources, not because they didn’t have resources or power to, I still hold my belief that they are the most powerful in the Alpha and Beta quadrants, at least until people prove my theory wrong.
Exactly. We are always told they are counterpunchers. We never see a large fleet make the first strike. Its always cloak and dagger. In unification it was three Vulcan ships used, then retreated when caught. During the Klingon civil war, when found out by Data, they retreated again. Romulans don't waste resources. Until proven otherwise, I agree with you, their strength in the Alpha and Beta quadrants is unmatched.
I'd say the Romulans have the smallest numerical fleet , but on the average the most powerful ships. DS9 fleet battles show very few Romulan ships. The primary threat of the Romulans is that they were very close to earth. They could blitz attack before the Federation can amass it's fleets that are patrolling 8000 light years of space. The Romulans also show they don't have good fleet commanders or fleet communication. During the final battle for Cardassia the Romulan flag ship is destroyed. Admiral Ross states that he is heading to the Romulans lines and will take over Command, which effectively leaves Siko is command of the federation's forces.
@@LoreReloaded If I remember the details right, I think that the stardate stated in the movie puts it before the episode, but there was an scheduling error and the movie came out later than expected. Sisko has access to spoilers :P
I think when Sisko says the Federation was reeling from latest Borg attack I believe he meant the fleet as a whole. There were ALOT of ships that were destroyed and in my opinion for a fleet focused on anti-borg tactics they still got the hell beat into them. Yes, the Defiant was DISABLED but not DESTROYED like other ships it's a tough little ship it's easier to repair than build another one.
"So the Sovereign exists in this universe," yes, yes it does. When TNG, DS9, and VOY were all on television they were all in one universe. Which would mean that the TNG movies would also exist in the same universe as the DS9 episodes. Thus why when you get to "Insurrection" they make references to losses to the Borg AND the Dominion... What happened for "First Contact" was likely that because Worf was such a focal character to TNG's run on television, they needed to find a way to reunite Worf with the Enterprise. Thus the Borg threat was such that the Defiant was needed to fight the Borg invasion going into the Battle of Sector 001. And on the surface, that'd make sense, given that the Defiant was originally designed to deal with the Borg. Though, they could have done that a bit better in that more of the DS9 cast was on the Defiant than just Worf. It would have been something where Picard and Sisko would have to work together and that it's Sisko who recognizes that Picard's fight in "First Contact" is about revenge against the Borg for what they did with him and essentially sees Picard as more than just Locutus, murderer of his wife. But the movie crew likely didn't want to pay for bringing in the DS9 cast... And thus by this episode in DS9, while the USS Sovereign and USS Enterprise E exist, they didn't bring in the latter because they didn't want to have to pay for the TNG crew appear in DS9 again, as they technically did when DS9 started, and they didn't bring in the former likely because they were using a physical model and thus didn't want to replace "USS Enterprise E NCC 1701" with "USS Sovereign NCC (whatever its registry number is)."
In a late DS9 episode i'm pretty sure Worf was sent out with the Defiant on a classified mission. Which actually was the events happening in "First Contact"
I still don't understand why Changeling-Bashir would go on a suicide mission, even if the Defiant didn't jump to warp within the Bajoran star/solar system and tractor-beam it away...the Changeling-Bashir would've destroyed the ship he was on near the Bajoran star/sun and...would still be dead. Meanwhile, the Changelings also say: "Getting Odo back to the Great Link is more important than the entire Alpha Quadrant" and the death of a changeling is terrible to them. So...why this?
@@Corbomite_Meatballs it also would have made Starfleet look better. It would have seem that they did all they could to prevent the war from coming about and protecting the quadrant.
But didn’t the federation invade the gamma quadrant first Colonies etc.... all these people just turning up and setting up shop ..... expansion everywhere. Large well armed starships flying around.
Technically when they did that, they weren't aware it was anyone's territory (and in fact, there were zero signs of such). The Dominion couldn't claim an equal ignorance. So while Starfleet's invasion was technical, the Dominion's was quantitatively different as an intentional invasion of a neighboring power, I'd think. Fair?
I think the ability to collapse the wormhole is why the Feds didn't bother stationing more ships at DS9. After all why bother tying down a large fleet at DS9 when all it would take to stop a Dominion invasion is a single volley of photon torpedoes. All you really need at DS9 is a tripwire force that is ready to blow the wormhole if necessary. (And that plan would have worked if Sisko hadn't decided to get cute on how he was going to collapse the wormhole.)
you might consider it bad writing but the question you raised at around 5:11 was answered in the first few minutes of episode Favor The Bold. There were 3 admirals meeting with Sisko: Ross a human male & a Vulcan female. The only admiral of the 3 which wanted to go along with Sisko's plan to retake ds9 was Ross. The other 2 were more concerned with Earth. It is safe to assume that this was the priority for the majority of Starfleet command & the Fed. Council. I find it a plausible explanation as to why Starfleet never had a major presence at ds9. Remember up to this point the Federation was on the defensive, losing one battle after another against the Dominion. They did not want to risk getting multiple fleets wiped out far from Earth.
O'Brian was a complete and utter a$$hole to Keiko for almost the entirety of DS9. She's a professor of botany, but he accepts a transfer to a PoS station with absolutely no regard to *her* career or specialty whatsoever. She was much better off staying on the Enterprise, or on a science vessel. Then in this episode, he complains to Bashir about her taking issue with him practically kicking her out of her own bedroom?! Is divorce not a thing in the 24th century, because Keiko deserves better! In regard to the overall theme of this episode, I'm surprised you didn't touch more on Bashir's old-style Starfleet idealism verses O'Brian's more practical, but possibly damaging and "unStarfleet" point of view. The Jem'Hadar First actively asked Bashir for help, and of course Bashir would help him. Of course it would be a good thing to help free slaves. I was disappointed that this plot was just left dangling, and we never saw the First again -- he could have been an asset to Starfleet and the Alpha Quadrant later on in the series, but no, better to just have the Jem'Hadar as disposable mooks rather than even trying to develop them as a race. It's a real shame.
Why would the Changeling infiltrator appear to Dukat as Bashir? Why not a Cardassian. That way, they wouldn't have to be concerned with being seeing speaking
I thought it was Wolf 359 until you made me think about it. Wolf 359 was 2366, 001 in 2373. The Dominion war was 2373-2375, all dates pulled from memory alpha. Memory alpha also has Generations happening in 2371, but two years from no Enterprise to the E seems a bit odd, but fits with the other timeline of First Contact.
Deep Space Nine establishes the fact that the Federation renames the ships. In story it is possible that a Sovereign class E ship was being built before the Enterprise D was destroyed.
Also sisko was an xo and at the battle of wolf 359 before season 1 of ds9 begins which is a good time apart.. they replaced their numbers pretty well in that time
@@jamesp3902 Still doesn't make sense. Why take an in service ship, rename it and then do a year long shakedown? So either they did a shakedown they didn't need to do, or they replaced the D in under two years. AND... The plaque in First Contact has the ship being launched in 2372. The writers made a lot of mistakes in that part of the timeline.
So when did the Enterprise E reenter the timeline after the events of first contact? I've always wondered about that but not enough to look it up. Oh well great video as usual
This episode also infuriates me. If Starfleet had left the same taskforce of 6 ships led the the war refit Galaxy Venture, that showed up to convince the Klingons to abandon the DS9 attack. It is possible that with the 7 ships concluding the defiant, the Dominon fleet could have been turned back. Also, when the war stars and a combined Dominion/Cardassian fleet attacks DS9. Bashir asks Sisko if Starfleet could spare 50 ships. Sisko says Starfleets resources are needed elsewhere. We know the Dominion lost over 50 ships in the attack. Weyuom says sp himself. The on screen size of the Starfleet Klingon force is well over 100. If the Feds spared say 30 of those ships. The Domion/cardies would have lost the Battle for DS9. We know the Feds had forces, as in the opening of the next episode which is set only a few weeks later, the 7th fleet numbered 112. Also as to the Borg attack. Apparently the Typhoon sector fleet had a huge days long running battle with the cube. Inside info from the movie was that the fed fleet was around 500 ships.
@@terrencejones9817 It's a lazy writing trope that so many people ignore in the franchise. In Star Trek V, it resulted in the Enterprise being sent on a potentially dangerous mission despite being in utter disarray and with a skeleton crew.
In a universe where SOVERIGN AND DEFIANTS exist... theres no reason to make a place SO important BUT like lore said HAS ALREADY been attacked to not have at least a good sized fleet ALWAYS stationed there alongside Defiant.. quite possibly that lost cause defense woulda made all the difference with a few Picard class Galaxies and a few Sovereigns backing up the "only warship" Starfleet truly had... an if something like Intrepids existed.. not sure they did yet, but if so. Seein what Janeway could do with the stock model.. toss some those in the fleet too. The point, make attacking the station too costly and suicidal to bother with. So they try to AVOID it and only attack as they needed to breakthrough.. its LITERALLY a space bottleneck that wormhole. Basic tactics said common sense shoulda negated ANY amount of reinforcements provided you just station a strong defense force at DS9.
I disagree, the borg attached reference just before the 5 minute mark had to be after DS9 series ended in the time line I would even say that was the USS Sao Paulo that had been renamed Defiant that Worf was in command of at that battle. I believe Star Fleet was just getting back to strengh from the loses at Wolf359 during the DS9 years.
@@LoreReloaded Hat tip to you. I had to go look at time lines, Guess there was more over laptop then i was willing to believe. I never noticed it was only 6 years between the 2 major Borg encounters. Also USS Enterprise c destoried in 2371 by the Duras sisters. Battle of Sector 001 was in 2373. All fits with the DS9 series. I now remember from the movie they said the defiant was floating in space, heavily damaged. Been a while since I watched it, need to break it out again. also I can't believe how long ago those movies came out. Just had a flash from the past, opening night at both of them. I was certain the movies happened after DS9 series ended. I didn't notice DS9 went all the way until 99. i remembered in in 93 when in HS. I lost out during college, didn't get the channels picked it back up and started watching again after college. Never watched them in order until after it was on Netflix.
@@LoreReloaded playing devil's advocate (according to memory alpha the borg attack was indeed a referance to first contact) building ships takes time, starfleet could very well have still been recorving from Wolf 359.
Out of curiosity when does this episode take place compared to Hippocratic oath? is it right after or a few episodes later? I'm just wondering what if the Bashir from Hippocratic oath actually a changeling
@@avataz See my first thought was that he wouldn't help. Then I wondered 1, he wanted to stay in character and 2, maybe he wanted to find out the cause for firsts lack of addiction to the white and as see if it were possible to find a cure as such when he relayed back to the great link they can make sure to alter them further so this new vaccine would do nothing. Of course it's probably just poppycock but an interesting few moments ponder
As screwy as it sounds, the Battle of Sector 001 occurring around this time does make some sense narratively, but the advancements in the tech observed on the Sovereign is a little off-putting that it's more of a warship and we know how Starfleet is with being a military at this time. By tech, I mean the quantum torpedoes and such. However, everything else about it does make sense for this time period. It even explains why Picard and the Enterprise-E were not present for the Dominion War. Time travel is a little wonky in Trek anyway, so the idea that they did not return until after the war does make some sense. Had they been there, would the war have changed? On one hand, a very good captain of one of the most powerful ships of the fleet, the flagship no less, would make an impact on several major battles. However, one captain, crew, and ship is not going to have widespread effects for the whole war effort, and the added risk of just one, you get Voyager's case. I'm probably missing several key pieces of information but that's just my two-cents.
@@stuartwald2395 Huh, funny that. From what I understand that's beta canon but better than nothing. Do you happen to know where it was operating for the majority of the war?
I don't have the book, but I remember a scene (early in the story) actually involved Ro Laren (with the Maquis) being rescued from the wreckage of her ship by the Enterprise.
I imagine that if the sided were switched, the Federation would not have taken kindly if, say, a wormhole opened up somewhere near Sol or Vulcan. But if it opens up in another quadrant, full of riches to be had and science to be made then it's ADVENTURE TIME and to Hell with the annoying and certainly-technologically-inferior locals! But then they fight back and the Federation feels butthurt. DS9 was a mess.
@@LoreReloaded I guess it depends on how much time passed between Sisko losing his wife @359, and the start of the dominion war. If the federation didn't rebuild their fleet over that time period well... :/
Every one forget bajoran space is not under the federation and the bajoran government didn't want a fleet there so not to piss off the cardassians so a star fleet fleet is not wanted they cam only come if the DS9. Is under attack they only allow the Defiant because Sico the emissary wanted Technical Bajor is neutral
The provisional government has no taste for war after being enslaved by the cardassians remember the romulan tried to put a base on one of thier moons don't blame them the federation let them down cardassians, klingon,Romulan the Dominion star fleet just sucked
@@cedrictaylor08 Thats ludicrous to me. They want to be under dominion rule? Wont listen to space jesus sisko and are happy to have the federation in control of their ships? Also during the dominion war they have federation, klingon, and romulan fleets all the time
And DS9 is seriously regarded better than Voyager? Is that a Joke? It's bad writing to an honest Joke-Extend. Episodes just end on a completly nonsensical Cliffhanger. Like that Season 2 Episode 13 Episode, where War was declared against the federation and that was never bought up again, the Episode just ended, basically with "This will have Consequences!" and that's it. I mean, are such things meant to be funny or what exactly? Odo was corrupt as heck from the very start, he's just someone no sane person should ever trust - whetever you have Rights or not is for him up to decide, and if he does not like you personally, you will have no rights. Evidend by Odo and Quark Interaction. Also, just overall, War and Peace are portrayed weirdly. It's a giant Subject so i will just leave it highly summarized like that. It's portrayed weirdly.
didnt alll those dominion ships go to support the cardassians after the war, so my thoughts are the other alpha powers have no reason to say the cardasssians are triators since none of them helped them. the cardassians were justified in being allied to the domion in the early years.
