*cracks fingers and punches the Caps lock* :D. Just joking. Thanks for taking the deck for a spin, it’s always interesting seeing someone else play a deck that you feel an investment in (even if in a lot of ways it’s just a modified DDFT list). I did actually take some notes on the individual games, but it’s too lengthy to go into really blow by blow here, but I thought some broad strokes would be better :). As always, a great fan of your style, in fact I think the last game vs delver was the only really horrible game of DD I’ve seen you play across all variations of the deck, which is impressive in itself (eg draw known led with stoney silence and a fetch in playXD). You seem allergic to ideas unbound piles :D. There was at least one instance where you could have played around the waste that you feared with (LED in play) cycle, crack, IU into petals and oracle. Also can IU into a veil to play in response to bowmaster triggers. I think you were like hyper focused on EtW lines. A lot of times BW->DD is still the play. And you don’t need to over commit into it at least once you could BW -> DD pass then 1 shot them the next turn, which would have changed the maths compared to BW (crack LED), DD, go. I also literally only bring the goblins in against delver, and with 2 decay, 2 pyroblast so you actually can settle into an aggro-control role quite comfortably. Playing this list reminded me how ace pyroblast was :). I almost always fetch the black mana producing 3/4 colour land first(eg bayou), because, you know, BBB :D. I think this stung you once. The tendrils is there for a couple of reasons. A couple of niche cases are ppl overdrawing with sylvan library or reanimating something down to low life or just a couple of ancient tomb activations and it feels like they are in range. Or if you’re aiming for an empty, but they try and interact to build a couple of storm might push them into tendrils territory. I personally don’t mind even 5 storm pre DD into IU, LED, LED, cycler, BW --> tendrils happens often enough to include. I think it also ties into TS as an engine. I think with 4 mana to untap and a draw 7, you get either (DD+draw as a win, or BW--> tendrils as a win). TS also enable a storm win off DD go piles, but oracle seems better placed there anyway :). Generally, I think the deck wants to wait a little more (maybe half to 1 turn) and kill on the same turn a lot more. There was one game where you just kind of DD go-ed vs the blue deck turn…. 2? But I think it was more correct to use 1 cantrip to find disruption T2 and give you T3 DD, kill you rather than DD go T2. As you can imagine I tried almost all storm engines on the board at one point or another. I think the problem with peer into the abyss was there are only 4 nonland initial mana sources, so it’s sometimes hard to win immediately after resolving one unless you didn’t make a land drop yet. But if you are resolving that you probably made a land drop…. I think it’s unfortunate that you just got bloodmooned out a lot. The deck is obvs weak to it. Which might be enough to make it unplayable in this meta. I found to have a better win rate against Rx stompy tbh because I hated having 3 forces and a daze in hand vs cavern plus magus or speedyclock. I think to include the basics would be bad (a whopping 3 islands :0). I love me a basic, but the mana requirements are too harsh. I’m on the full set of sea (no cavern). With the philosophy of trying to kill them the same turn more, then cavern becomes worse, and the silence effects become better. Sometimes it’s good to be super aggressive too. I think you missed 2 potential early DDs (T1) which were naked (tutor/BW/LED tricks). I would DD go T1 a blue deck just to keep them honest, even if it is basically a scoop if you miss. ESP if they haven’t made a land drop for daze or BS -> force. Er…. That’s all from my info dump that I can remember BW makes the deck non-linear and so the decision tree becomes much more complex I find. If the aim is to just win games, it means the deck is probably just worse because of this, but I absolutely adore the play patterns that it creates. As you found out BW --> massacre is quite the drug though :D. It’s fair to say that the deck totals control, which is primarily what I built it for, maybe I just gave up too many point against the other decks to do this. Let me know what you think. :).
Thanks so much for reaching out with this deck and for the subsequent very detailed feedback :) I absolutely expect there is plenty of room for growth and improvement for me playing DDFT as it is not a deck I’ve played much. However this version left me doubting the fundamental premise a bit of having Tendrils in the SB as the primary or secondary win con as it feels too hard to enable with an engine card. And if we were to introduce an engine to the deck - say Echo of Eons or Beseech the Mirror - then suddenly the two plans - Doomsday with Thoracle vs Beseech/Echo for lethal tendrils - begin to feel a bit detached from each other and particularly synergistic. Like to put it a bit sharply (and probably unreasonably so) it feels like we are getting a deck that is both a Doomsday deck and a TES deck but are watered down versions of each deck and why aren’t we just focusing on one of those strategies as both of them are good in their own right? How do you feel about that?
I see the tension in the deck as elsewhere. The inclusion of BW I think necessitates the LEDs, which in turn need IU to enable the storm piles, whereas a more modern DD list would drop BW for personal tutor and 3LED, IU for more disruption. This would make it half a turn to 1 turn faster with increased space for disruption or utility. So I think the real question is are the control elements provided by BW in DD powerful enough to warrant this slow down? And the answer seems to be no. One of the problems being lock decks now have a lot of creatures rather than artifact pieces, and there not being anything really sorc speed that cleans up both murktide and dragon rage channeled that won’t get dazed. And the next question that is revealed- do you HAVE to play force of will in the deck? I think the answer to this is also no. In fact, pyroblast being so good means I think there might be a build that plays multiple (maybe not 4) LEDs main for that speed nudge (by this I probably mean increased kill on the same turn %age) but then boards them out vs blue.deck and boards in pyroblast. My favourite part of the deck was not being shut down by a Teferi or cavern-> lock piece. So until the sideboard is correct, it just feels slightly weaker I would say, but then don’t really have the SB answers myself…. :). So I guess I would disagree with the analysis, but arrive at roughly the same conclusion :). And yes, I have played DD in TES sideboards as a 1 of, and it was fine, but prob not worth the slot. It felt very different to this deck, which I think is a DD deck with possible storm finishes. I even wanted to play next level storm when that was a thing (because DDFT want hard enough :D) but mystical tutor got banned almost as soon as I started playing seriously :’(. Anyway, I got a lot from playing this deck, so I count it as a success, but prob back to more regular builds for now. Just bear in mind that R is still a valid splash in DD I guess :).
Yeah, ToA seems like it's almost impossible to get to in this deck. To be able to get to 9 storm and then cast it, you'd have to cast at least a few cantrips as part of your chain plus have a bunch of mana, which seems like it's not going to come up much. Storm decks have always been defined more by their engine cards (ad nauseum, past in flames, beseech the mirror). It's the engine cards that make ToA playable, and the rituals make the engine cards playable. The rituals don't make ToA playable on its own. Doomsday kind of can't function as a storm engine, as you pointed out, so I don't see how the deck is ever going to be able to cast ToA like this. If you wanted to make it a hybrid Doomsday/ToA deck, maybe rebuilding it to be able to play beseech the mirror or ad nauseum?
Hey there. Yeah I agree on your analysis. After BtM was released there were some Beseech + Doomsday lists being tried out. If you look through my archive I believe there’s a video of me playing one of those lists. The theory was “here are two powerful combos that overlap wrt fast mana, maybe they can work together”. My experience was, mostly, that you were playing a sub-optimal version of either plan and often I felt like “why do I have these mediocre cards in my Doomsday deck”. But you could also reverse that statement. With Sensei’s Top Doomsday did actually storm 10. But it required a lot: Dark Rit, DD (storm 2). Pile is Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Probe, Butning Wish. You’d need an LED and Top in play plus 1 extra mana. Let’s say B. Tap Top, hold priority, sac LED for UUU. Draw IU. Cast IU, UB floating (storm 3). Draw Top, LED, LED. Play those 3 B floating (storm 6). Sac LEDs, BBBBRRR floating. Tap top to draw probe. Cast probe for life (storm 7). Probe draws top. Play top BBBRRR floating (storm 8 ). Tap top, draw burning wish. Cast wish (storm 9). Get tendrils (storm 10). I’m doing this on the fly and might have missed something but that’s the gist. It was cool and with multiple tops in play and/or more mana it could real interesting. Chain of vapor targeting your own top In response to the tap and then saccing a land to copy and bouncd their hatepiece or you other top if you multiple was also sick :D
@@MartinNielsen_nevilshute Oh wow, that does sound sweet :D That's a nice line. I'll go back and try to dig up some of those other hybrid videos. I think the appeal of a hybrid deck is that it can dodge different types of hate by shifting onto another plan. As a storm player, there's *so many* storm hate permanents out there now that it's very appealing. (The question then becomes why not just switch to Doomsday lol) Anyway, love the videos as usual! Unfortunately I only get to play legacy 1 or 2 times per year, so your channel is a great way to get my combo fix.
