Douglas Murray and Jonathan Pageau | EP 290

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Jonathan Pageau, Douglas Murray, and Dr Jordan B Peterson discuss our hierarchies of perception, existence, faith, and whether meaning is a self evident truth or something intangible that is sought in vain.
Jonathan Pageau is a French-Canadian liturgical artist and icon carver, known for his work featured in museums across the world. He carves Eastern Orthodox and other traditional images, and teaches an online carving class. He also runs a RU-vid channel dedicated to the exploration of symbolism across history and religion.
Douglas Murray is a British political commentator and author. In 2007 he founded a think tank called the Center for Social Cohesion, which later became part of the Henry Jackson Society. Currently he is an associate editor for the magazine the Spectator, where he became somewhat infamous after organizing a competition in which entrants were invited to submit offensive poems about Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, with a top prize of £1,000. He has authored five books, the most recent of which being “The War on the West.”
Dr Peterson's extensive catalog is available now on DailyWire+: utm.io/ueSXh
-Links-
For Douglass Murray:
Website: douglasmurray.net/
(Book) The War on the West: www.amazon.com/War-West-Dougl...
(Book) The Strange Death of Europe: www.amazon.com/Strange-Death-...
For Jonathan Pageau:
Icon Carving: www.pageaucarvings.com
Podcast: www.thesymbolicworld.com
RU-vid Channel: / jonathanpageau
-Chapters-
(0:00) Coming Up
(1:10) Intro
(4:18) A Precondition for a Rational World View
(10:29) The Battle of Conceptions
(14:55) Perceived Unity and the Glass
(21:58) Do Science and Religion Overlap?
(29:41) The Hierarchy of Perception and Action
(38:45) The Bible Was Not Written Forensically
(48:25) Using the Least Possible Thing to Describe the Realness of Everything
(57:07) Are We Meaning-Seeking Beings, or is There Meaning?
(1:05:56) To What Degree Does Something Exist Prior to Elaboration?
(1:12:04) The Cause of Demoralization in Our Society
(1:17:58) The Advantage of Organized Religion
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12 Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos: jordanbpeterson.com/12-rules-...
Maps of Meaning: The Architecture of Belief: jordanbpeterson.com/maps-of-m...
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Опубликовано:

25 май 2024

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Комментарии : 3,3 тыс.

@jonnyw82 Год назад

Peterson, Murray AND Pagaue???!! We are blessed!! 🙏✝️

@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm Год назад

I was thinking the exact same thing. We are extremely blessed to live in such wonderful times. It's easy to think otherwise but if we truly listen to those who are the wisest amongst us we will know that these are the best times to be alive. 🙏

@Jsanon00 Год назад

A great trio

@oambitiousone7100 Год назад

Pageau

@mistowasabi5443 Месяц назад

☦️

@hobbsmatt Год назад

As a lifelong atheist/agnostic raised in the presbyterian church, it wasn’t until a very close family member who was Antiochian orthodox just recently passed away that I started to feel my inner architecture shift towards some longing curiosity towards orthodoxy. For whatever reason, talks like this one and others involving Jonathan Pageau have completely blown me wide-open, kicked down the doors and started remodeling my inner architecture. I’ve never been this kind of person at all, but I found myself weeping tears of joy/relief on my commute to work this morning as I listen to this. Thank you, gentlemen. Now starts my real work.

@Theoretically-ko6lr Год назад

Amazing❤ Glory to God!! Orthodoxy is the one and true church of Christ. ❤

@onceinawhile7 Год назад

Welcome brother

@ItsSVO Год назад

Why were you an Atheist in the first place, with respect it can’t have been because of your critical thinking skills so I’m interesting how you ended up in that position.

@nikosantikythera2422 Год назад

☦

@bjohnston5198 Год назад

Shed a tear myself near the end and though of the oddity of it. The conversation was beautiful art imho.

@dancl8674 Год назад

50 years as a Christian…and It’s insane to me that this is the best sermon I’ve ever heard!

@YeshurunMusic Год назад

Amen.

@nathandurant2825 Год назад

That's weird.

@atlasfeynman1039 Год назад

That's RU-vid.

@vinegarpisser2992 Год назад

@@thedeifiedjulius2310 can you elaborate ?

@drooskie9525 Год назад

@@vinegarpisser2992 He's using a term popularly talked about with Neitzche. He's basically saying he was a christian for 50 years and regrets it. That its teachings produces a kind of hatred of the self, hence the "ressentinent morality" term. Envy and hatred producing a "self-abasement" behavior.

@symmetricat188 11 месяцев назад

Great talk. Douglas is not only a sharp & eloquent peer, but also astoundlingly thoughtful, adaptive & creative. His closing monologue is ridiculously powerful.

@johnowens5342 Год назад

When you see Jonathan looking around, listening and talking, you can see how much he enjoys these talks. Murray gives the challenge and Jordan is in heaven. We are truly privileged to witness this conversation.

@johnowens5342 Год назад

@@bartonlee3594 that is extraordinary since he referred to a book written in 2022 in the video. Time travel perhaps? "Fled" is not what you do by driving to an airport and sitting on a flight. Your multiple comments about "Russia" and "addiction" would indicate obsession. Get help for yourself.

@madelineowen8052 Год назад

The aesthetics of this video are on point whoever was in charge of that ✨🙌

@iphang-ishordavid2954 Год назад

@@bartonlee3594 now this is a false narrative 😅😅

@xwolfensiriusx Год назад

@@bartonlee3594 So he can't have problems or what lmao ,

@alexthegordonhighlander1159 Год назад

@@bartonlee3594 the comment you are replying to is about Jonathan Pageau. Who is this “he” you refer to? There has been zero discussion about drug addiction in these comments nor in the video until you bring it up… makes me wonder as to who is this “he” you are referring to? Happy politicking.

@eternalperspectiveofficial Год назад

The way Jordan recognizes and respects Jonathan's wisdom is so beautiful to watch. Douglas was a brilliant guest and posed all the right questions.

@JIMMYUNKNOWN Год назад

You mean the way he cuts Jonathan off constantly and proceeds to talk just to hear himself talk? lol

@saimbhat6243 Год назад

They are all rhetoricians, obviously. Nothing they said is even the accepted creed and doctrine of single church in the world. They are just trying to invent a religious metaphysical basis for the current Christian conservative worldview, which they all like and admire for its outcomes and not for its beliefs. Basically, at best jordan peterson is ready to call all religious stories as mere stories written by ancient hebrew psychologists who somehow knew jungian psychoanalysis. None of them is a true christian, you know it, I know it(Even though I am a muslim) and every christian theologian of every church knows it. They have good intentions in the sense that they want to save people from nihilism and skepticism that comes from modernity. But their attempt is not genuine nor true. Nobody believes in religion for rational reasons, no matter how much jordan peterson tries to REINVENT AND REINTERPRET AND REVISIT religion. Religious belief doesn't start from rationality nor rationalizations. Nobody will stop having intercourse before marriage or outside marriage because of "the weird fictional true" rationalization forbids it. People do that only if the hell and heaven are true, so true that the fear of hell and the want of heaven should direct your actions. The miracles of prophet jesus (PBUH) were not stories mr. jordan peterson, if they were stories, the belief in them becomes optional. If all religion is PRAGMATIC AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY useful fictions, then why should it have authority ? Why can't everyone be free to make his own fictions, which might be more pragmatic and psychologically useful ? If the pragmatic and psychologically useful fictions of a social justice/mystic leftist group provides them more moral certainty and lessens then existential angst, then why should they believe in your rationalizations ? And then there is more to say about psychoanalytic justifications for your beliefs. Psychoanalysis is in itself a pseudo-scientific endeavor and is just a reading of effects of cultural/social/material life on human thinking, not a discovery of true human nature. You cannot erect your new religion from a pseudoscience. The Christianity of st. Augustin, st. peter, st. thomas aquinas and martin luther king is THE CHRISTIANITY. What you people are doing is just making a new religion out of thin air for "pragmatic" reasons. And trying to become NEW PROPHETS OF IT. The virgin birth is true, in literal sense, and I bear witness to its truth.

@JIMMYUNKNOWN Год назад

@@saimbhat6243 you’re envy is showing.

@saimbhat6243 Год назад

@@JIMMYUNKNOWN See, your personal attacks don't convey much.

@JIMMYUNKNOWN Год назад

@@saimbhat6243 funny I was going to say the same about yours, despite the sheep’s clothing.

@user-sv8km7tn4u Год назад

This is in all honesty the best and highest level of discussion on multiple levels that I heard in my entire Life. Thank you Jordan, Jonathan and Douglas! You have my absolute respect 🙏

@krisphiles 18 дней назад

My three ABSOLUTE FAVORITE speakers... it was a joy.

@jonnyschaff7068 Год назад

Getting married this weekend and baptized into the Orthodox Church this Pascha. God willing. Thank you so much gentleman. I was on a very very dark path. Redemption is very real to me now thanks to these holy ideas. I have nothing but love and admiration for you men and all your difficult and courageous work. Please keep moving forward with zeal.

@ReformedWhiteKnight Год назад

What was so dark, if I (we) may ask? And how did you come to Christ? Just learning! ;-)

@BrotherhoodWorkshop Год назад

Good on you bro! Always great to hear people on a good path.

@blumusik9572 Год назад

Congratulations on your marriage and journey of faith.

@eldermillennial8330 Год назад

My priest was pointing out how differently Orthodox define “faith” this past Sunday, and it’s an insight that Murray really needs to ponder.

@olgakarpushina492 Год назад

Blessings, brother. May your marriage be a truly holy union.

@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm Год назад

I can sit and listen to Jordan Peterson all day long. I truly believe he will go down in history as one of the most important Men of our time. God bless you Jordan, and your wonderful family. 🙏👁️

@malvolio01 Год назад

Listen up, sunshine... turn off the tube and go clean your room!

@Ironknuckle100 Год назад

@Ben C I am currently listening to this while working. Your argument is invalid.

@Ironknuckle100 Год назад

@@malvolio01 Will do. Just finished laundry, got the rhoomba out suckering and got the dishes lined up next.

@solideogloria...7421 Год назад

I like all of these people, such a panel.. But they're wrong about proving The Bible.. PROPHECY PROVES THE BIBLE

@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm Год назад

@@malvolio01 I just finished trimming a rose bush and tree in the front yard. Fixed a flat tire on an old car and cooked lunch for my wife. Anything else you'd like to order me to do?

@AudrinaOralay Год назад

I feel like I'm starving in my doctoral program and you three, with your fascinating discussions, makes my brain feel actually engaged, fed, and excited. Excellent discussion, all of you! Lovely to see different points of view coming together to discuss such tough and fascinating ideas.

@francois_leveille Год назад

I feel the exact same way! Thanks for your comment, I feel a little less alone ;)

@joeday4293 Год назад

What a sad commentary it is that you are in a doctoral program, yet starving for intellectual stimulation. This is why Frank Zappa said, if you want an education, go to the library. If you want to get laid, go to college.

@conq3097 Год назад

Yup sounds like a typical university

@M0rmagil Год назад

We live in amazing and confusing times, when we pay big $$$ for a piece of paper that doesn’t necessarily provide what we thought it represented, but we can find world class discussions of serious topic for free.

@trevboster2438 Год назад

I love how Peterson and Pageau slowly scooted closer on the couch over the course of the conversation haha

@shanehenderson8756 Год назад

Its like the love Jesus had for his deciples.

@margokupelian344 28 дней назад

Jordan did not Pageau. I noticed that too but I didn’t think it was worth commenting on.

@YouTubeComments Год назад

Keep getting Jonathan talking to all these new people. He's the best.

@thebigredwagon Год назад

Check out his talk with Dr Ian mcgillchrist and thank me later.

@josephtravers777 Год назад

@@thebigredwagon That was VG+ interview 👍

@YouTubeComments Год назад

@Sen Dog probably fair to say that is one aspect/feature of God…and not a description of him.

@YouTubeComments Год назад

@Sen Dog would you consider yourself a Christian? (I’m not claiming you’re not. as a Christian I’ve just never understood it that way as it seems to limit God because he is also beyond all being and ultimately ineffable)

@YouTubeComments Год назад

@Sen Dog I’m not one to school anyone, I’m a seeker as well. , was more just curious the perspective you were coming at it from because I hadn’t heard Christian folks describe God in that way (although pageau does use similar descriptors at times but would say still different enough that this sounded unique)

@flashflood4 Год назад

As a minister for over 12 years, in a time where one's efforts seem questionable, this conversation brought great reassurance to the value of my chosen pursuits and profession. Thank you.

@Jkp1321 Год назад

Yes but to what end? As you say minister I suppose you are of a Protestant denomination

@MrMoonFlame Год назад

@alex flood I would love to hear your (a minister’s) response to this video clip below. Thx in advance ❤️ The “Anti-Christ” was never some mysterious man who was to rise to power deceiving everyone, but rather the “liberal fantasy” embodied as the “institution,” wearing the mask of care and presuming to do for people what we can do for each other - “love thy neighbor”. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jsW8UQgFOBI.html

@heads_together_crypto2422 Год назад

Is the resurrection literal?

@stevenanderson9660 Год назад

@@heads_together_crypto2422 without the resurrection, there is no Christianity. Plenty of eyewitnesses accounts to corroborate this claim. Many of the eyewitnesses chose to give up their lives at the hand of the Romans instead of denying what they saw.

@meaningoflife7199 Год назад

@@heads_together_crypto2422 very

@isaqureshi7916 Год назад

This is just brilliant. Thank you gentlemen. I have been losing my faith of late and this thoughtful conversation amongst three incredible people may be restoring much more than that in me

@stevescuba1978 Год назад

I came to believe in God about a year ago. It became clear to me that humans have always been searching for truth, and that truth always seems to point toward goodness. John 8:32, John 14:6, psalm 51:6, John 1:1.... All these speak to our desire to know the Truth, which I believe to be the fundamental aspect of humanity. One either seeks the truth, or avoids it all costs, those that seek the truth are humble, practice kindness, and see the obviousness that there is some kind of spiritual force for good. Those who avoid truth, tend to be self-centered, callous, and cold. I came to realize that one believes in Goodness, or God, or one is evil...or inspired by the devil

@Peekaboo-Kitty Год назад

Why lose Faith? I believe God formed the Universe through Naturalist means. I love God and I accept Science.

@nikosantikythera2422 Год назад

I think there's nothing contrary to faith by doubting or losing it in part, or even altogether. The true ongoing struggle is essential to the gradual deepening of faith (as opposed to "prelest"), including even simply the desire for it. The rejecting of it, as we engage with the world that too often destabilizes us and creates doubt within us, is quite frequently temporary. Hopefully, when we return to our faith again, we rediscover that this is where the light (the "uncreated light") actually resides alongside truth. To have faith, and then believe or be convinced that one is safely, easily, and permanently "locked in" to an unassailable place, that is, to a strictly intellectual, rational, relationship with the transcendent that can never be doubted or assailed or deconstructed is the mistake and the illusion. The transcendent exists. Christ is the perfection we seek but can never completely reach, which doesn't invalidate the necessity of the ongoing struggle toward him. ☦

@marayoung Год назад

I go to church because it gives me a sense of calm and peace, listening to the word gives me a sense of security and sanity. Having a church community, helps me grow, keeps me grounded, accountable for my actions, and incentivizes me to be a better person. Learning good morals, discipline and how to live a better life it’s why I am part of a church and follow tradition, I believe this is very important for everyone so that we stay away from depression and the psychologists. I am grateful to God for this 🙏🏻🙌🏻

@randybaccio2407 Год назад

JP is the only person that makes me feel more intelligent and more stupid at the same time.

@CincyPharmer Год назад

very good description!

@rufussweeneymd Год назад

I think that’s the definition of a great teacher.

@DerekJFiedler Год назад

Which JP?

@GetUnlabeled Год назад

That means it's working!

@davidstone5595 Год назад

@@DerekJFiedler Jordan Pageau

@ThePaulmaxey Год назад

It's a blessing that we are able to listen to great conversations like this.

@MommaLousKitchen Год назад

Agreeed

@lukehart7225 Год назад

listening to their point of views about education; coming from someone that's not educated, or have good knowledge, makes me feel bad as person cause l'm doing cleaning a job, and l'm not educating myself...but off topic, but, l'm blessed as well man

@cletuswyns Год назад

@Sen Dog well said

@lynnleech4167 Год назад

@@lukehart7225 you are participating where you are- much more intelligent than those educated and doing nothing with it.

@joshboston2323 Год назад

@Sen Dog ---How do you know that good art discovers patterns beyond the physical. What does that even mean? Show me something that is "beyond physical". What evidence do you have apart from saying that art discovers it? Then you come up with some new definition for God that I've never heard of and finally you give us some false dichotomy by giving us a choice between two made up concepts. Sorry, but what a word salad this is.

@SuperBellalucy Год назад

A terrific episode - I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Jordan as always insightful and deep, Douglas Murray razor-sharp & very wise. Jonathan P., relatively new to me, yet a thoughtful man with astute contributions. Thank you gentlemen 🌱

@juicybullet 11 месяцев назад

I have listened to this 3 times already and I get something new each time. Thank you for having this discussion! ❤

@tensevo 9 месяцев назад

3rd listen

@waynebell6835 Год назад

It’s incredible to me that Dr. Peterson looks even better now than he did before he was sick. Truly incredible.

@BreakOutOfTheAlgorithm Год назад

🙏

@righteousnesscheck Год назад

Money and knowledge

@VeritasIncrebresco Год назад

Because he's a Boss.

@vashmatrix5769 Год назад

Lil help: sick with what?

@sergpie Год назад

Stop eating excessive sugars, grains, seeds, and leaves. Our gut isn’t adapted for the exuberant amount of indigestible plant matter the world at large would have you believe is healthy.

@CarlosVargas-jz8gl Год назад

Douglass was a perfect choice, very good with expressing ideas! And he asks the best questions 👍🏻 another round of these three together would be great!

@LoremLorem Год назад

Did you notice, first he asks "Is Chritianity exhausted force or unexhausted force" and quite soon after that says "one of the revolutions of Christian tradition is that everybody has an intrinsic value"? Can't we derive from the two statements: "Is the idea of people having intrinsic value an exhausted force or not?" I don't know why, but I misspelled the word "intrinsic value" repeatedly "intrinsic meaning". Intrinsic meaning feels to hint at action more than intrinsic value, later feels to imply to something static. Some branches of Judaism see people as co-creators of the world. That line of thinking offers intrinsic meaning as well as value.

@AdamLeis Год назад

I've been catching more and more of Douglas Murray (on Pierce Morgan usually), and I like what I hear out of him. I don't agree with him on many things, but I appreciate his practical approach. "We have to get down to brass tacks…" in the midst of an interesting but esoteric/abstract conversation on "fiction" and mythic archetypes. Very good conversation.

@peteroreilly8060 Год назад

Thank you all three for a brilliant discussion. I learn more about myself listening to you all.

@lifestylemedicinals8692 Год назад

In a world full of disarray, disagreement, and distress, this conversation is an oasis for this soul. 3 deep thinkers with different world views, discussing the most core existential questions of life, while maintaining respect and being of equal conversational reciprocity. If conversations like this became commonplace, mankind's progression would be much more meaningful than just simple expansion and "advancement". Without these core meanings, every other pursuit of mankind will be unsustainable. Bravo to these gentlemen 🙏

@RefineIrony Год назад

It's the work OF the values allowing them to do so. It's the fruit picked directly from the vine.

@RefineIrony Год назад

*and offered to the other

@kaibe5241 Год назад

The general human population isn't smart enough for that.

@craigmartin1975 Год назад

Well said

@pampennyworth Год назад

I love finding that one comment that speaks for me too. 👍

@aimhigh3701 Год назад

I love seeing older men so engaged with the big questions. There is something so deeply reassuring about older men who have not lost their vitality, who continue to leap with their faith toward truth and beauty.

@PieJesu244 Год назад

O the innocence of youth

@aimhigh3701 Год назад

@A.T. I'm 30. These men are all older than me. Hence why I referred to them as "older men" and not "old men".

@aimhigh3701 Год назад

@A.T. Jordan Peterson is 60. That's 10 years away from 70. Would you say he is an older man or not?

@thepilgrimofinfinity4830 Год назад

Three of the greatest Western intellectuals of our era. It's a great privilege to be able to listen to this discussion.

@margokupelian344 28 дней назад

Douglas Murray, regarding your notion that “there’s nothing in life that matters” I would say, submit your life to Jesus and see what happens to your life. God is everywhere. He’s in nature, He’s in the daily human experience, He’s in the human suffering, He’s in all things, but people don’t want or can’t see Him which is sad. There was a time when I thought philosophy, psychology, metaphysics had all the answers to life and they fascinated me. Thirty years ago I was going through very hard times in my life and I couldn’t get out of it, then I thought of God. So I knelt down and cried out to Him to show me the way to find peace and … He reached out to me right away. I felt His presence and a tremendous sense of peace and I KNEW in my heart that I found what I was looking for: GOD. God is so simple and yet so profound. No use in philosophical explanations and attempts to find a meaning to life and to human existence. He is the only source!

@ALSET-_-MUSIC Год назад

Jonathan is clearly a genius. I know a lot of people might see him as a third wheel in some sense. To me, he has my full respect. He is thinking well beyond what most people give him credit for. Jonathan, if you see this I want you to know, I see you brother. “Fractals”

@triscat Год назад

@@Nah_Bohdi I don't know that he is a scholar. I don't think Jonathan would consider himself that. He is an Icon carver. An artist. An Orthodox Christian. A wonderful partner and conduit in these kinds of conversations.

@ALSET-_-MUSIC Год назад

@@triscat Yes, Jonathan is indeed very attentive. Which is why I would strongly agree with you, he is a fantastic conversationalist.

@ReformedWhiteKnight Год назад

I would suggest that Jordan is lucky to have come across Jonathan! I really do believe that Jonathan is helping him!! I believed that from the very beginning they were in touch!

@nancyd001 Год назад

@@Nah_Bohdi You must not know his background. His bachelor's degree is in art, and he has no academic degree in religion or theology. He's well-read but definitely not a scholar. And his perspective is different from JBP's in many important ways.

@cfowler9789 Год назад

He's not a genius, he's an artist in the true sense of the word. He has the same kind of brain and education as me. He sees very far and deeply into things and he makes conncections and recognises patterns that others don't see but he struggles with the details. And then his knowledge of Orthodoxy provides his style of thinking and perceiving with a rich and solid foundation.

@0ucantstopme034 Год назад

Jordan laying out the general lessons to be learned (or some of them) from the Bible is just awesome to listen. He's like Beethoven with words; very pleasing to listen to.

@cribedadabecri5764 Год назад

Yes. He is the Beethoven of truthful speach.

@somedandy7694 Год назад

Just don't get him started on Pinocchio...and DEFINITELY don't tell him about the remake!

@duncanmugambi6213 Год назад

@@somedandy7694 So true! How do we hide the remake info from Jordan? He is going to flip when he finds what they did to it

@Ginger04 Год назад

I wish I knew all he knows and could communicate half as well.

@somedandy7694 Год назад

@Sen Dog This line belongs in an epic anime battle.

@VikingAF1111 Год назад

I’ve listen to this five times I keep reverting back to it because it is such a powerful conversation. May I suggest a part two between the three of you gentlemen sometime in the future. Thank you again all of you for your work and your light in the dark.

@j.s.5957 Год назад

This conversation was for me one of the most inspiring from you Jordan! (and I have listen to a lot) The combination of the three of you is a perfect match! When Pagaue is talking beautifuly about mysteries of life, Douglas can bring the conversation down to earth in such a interseting way. Can't wait for the next one!

@alvareo92 Год назад

PogO*

@Jsanon00 Год назад

Douglas Murray, possibly the greates guest of all time for this podcast.

@dnbjedi Год назад

With his manners you could cut out the last three words honestly. :D

@rumekpadamrophe912 Год назад

Aren't we all so privileged to listen to conversations like this for free!

@meinking22 Год назад

That insight at 1:01:57 - "Is there anything more real than pain?...The Meaning that overcomes pain is more real than the pain and that's actually what meaning is." Pure gold.

@darrylelam256 Год назад

Yet meaning does not need to come with pain. Its not 'pure gold' its word salad. It sounds deep yet it means nothing.

@danielgalvez7953 Год назад

@@darrylelam256 @Darryl Elam I dont know how you can say its word salad and that it means nothing. Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing. They aren't just making this stuff up. I almost want to say that youre just making stuff up when you say, "Yet meaning does not need to come with pain", but I think I know what youre saying, and its not meaningless, you just misunderstand what they were saying. I replied to your comment on my comment thread, and coming from that, it seems to me you simply dont have the full context, you dont understand what they are actually saying. If you did understand, and you still disagreed, that doesnt then mean that what they said was meaningless word salad, it could just mean that what they said was wrong.

@darrylelam256 Год назад

@@danielgalvez7953 "Genuine people dont do or say things that mean nothing." And they aren't genuine people, what part of that aren't you understanding? "you just misunderstand what they were saying" Nope, pain is NOT part of meaning, what they said was not only pointless but F'ing stupid. Things are ether real or not real, there is no such thing as 'more real'. Meaning that doesn't come with pain is just as real as meaning that comes with pain. Meaning has NOTHING to do with pain. Meaning definition Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. adjective: intended to communicate something that is not directly expressed. Notice how pain it NOT part of that. Overcoming pain dos NOT make what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action more real. Not having to overcome pain does NOT make a meaning less real. Its the same level of real. This is nothing but word salad meant to convince you that they are really smart people when in truth they have nothing of value to say. They do that because that's how they make their money, its a con job to get you to buy his books, 23 of them and/or support him financially in other ways.

@danielgalvez7953 Год назад

@@darrylelam256 Why dont you think they are genuine people? Just because they sell books? I hope not, that'd be ridiculous. They are pretty smart: they are at least above average, its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening to it's whether you have anything meaningful to say, whether you're sharing a useful understanding that the listeners lack. And being able to say things concisely as they do in this video is very useful. Its not like they haven't expanded on these ideas in other videos, they have, so these ideas are not meaningless, there is a great deal of context you clearly lack. There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas, they are not just empty words. If you disagree with what Peterson has to say in those videos, then fine, you disagree, but they are not empty words deprived of meaning. Besides I dont support him financially at all, most of their listeners dont. And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning, like in the question, "what is the meaning of life." If that google definition was all there was, then that question would be as simple as looking up the definition of the word life. Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind. In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand.

@darrylelam256 Год назад

@@danielgalvez7953 "Why dont you think they are genuine people?" Because they aren't. Ask JP if he believes in a god, not only will he not answer, he will insult your intelligence by claiming that you don't know what believe means. "Just because they sell books?" How do you think he makes his money and he makes a lot of money. " its not your IQ that determines whether you're worth listening" I didn't say sh!t about IQ so why the F are you bringing it up? Are you trying to build a strawman? "it's whether you have anything meaningful to say" And that should be magically 'more true' if they had to overcome pain? Or are they just full of sh!t? "There are tons of videos where Peterson goes into more detail about these ideas" And he is making money off those videos where he does nothing but talk word salad. "And Notice how Google's definition of meaning you pulled has nothing to do with the other way people use meaning" Nope. You clearly are too stupid top understand that they are broad definitions yet the still fits how people use the word. "like in the question, "what is the meaning of life."" Yes a completely BS question that assumes that there is a magical meaning to life and YES it still fits the definition that I used. Noun: what is meant by a word, text, concept, or action. and in this unbelievably stupid question of 'what is the meaning of life' the brainless fools are asking what is this life meant for, what is the reason for this life. And its faulty from the get go because it baselessly assumes that life was put here for a reason, that we are meant to do something. "Clearly, they are not using the word "meaning" with that definition you pulled in mind." And that's where you are wrong, but thanks for displaying you ignorance. "In this case it is right to say they are using jargon, specialized words that outsiders wouldn't understand." Nope, they are using specialized words to make word salad. Lots of talking that means nothing.

@brandonjones5815 Год назад

Douglas Murray is brilliant. My first time listening to him, I am finding in myself realizations and self-awareness that I have not yet come across before.

@mfjflower Год назад

You must be joking; he’s a pompous ignoramus

@mariespinosa5395 Год назад

Thank you to the three of you. Wonderful conversation. So grateful to live in a time that I can listen to intelligent educated men at my leisure.

@themudpit621 Год назад

@Sen Dog religion is delusion.

@laurahenderson2384 Год назад

The practice of belief is less like practicing for athletic excellence and more like living out your love for others with actions that strive towards their best good. The thing Jordan keeps missing is that the object of our love/worship/practice is REAL. He made us for real, mutual relationship with Him. It's not just an aiming to a theoretical Best and Highest. The best and highest is a real, living Being who loves us.

@daniel.lopresti Год назад

I see so much of this type of discussion where philosphers, writers, cultural commentators try to make sense of the current chaos in the world and in society, and openly admit that it is evidently a consequence of removing God and religion from society (as they discuss here), and yet, as Douglas Murray puts it, they get 99% of the way there, but can't reconcile that last 1%, which is essentially 100%. I hope they eventually manage to take that last "leap of faith".

@aldoelliott9316 Год назад

Well said.

@Jack-hv3uj Год назад

Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.

@WhidbeyMP Год назад

I listened to this while driving home from my weekly visit to my older brother. I loved Douglas’ last statement- maybe that is what we need, something that transcends the natural. I related with Jordan’s comment that we are still living out the scriptures- I feel that in my own life. And I agree with Johnathan that yes, these things really happened.

@Darko.Damjanovic 3 месяца назад

Actually the probability that it happened in reality is 0.I will never understand why people have to build their worldview on obvious lies.We can and should acknowledge that we dont have the answers, but to pretend that the answers are obvious, foolish lies is remarkably stupid.This is closest to a mindset of a gambling addict.Those people never say, OK this is an ilusion, l have to start over without it, but rather always keep that "just one more time" theory in their minds.Its simple, story of resurrection is a flat out lie, story of Moses also, story that Mohammad was give Quran by angel too... Those are evident lies and what guys like Peterson and Pageu do is trying to convince people to further entranch in lies.

@Noblesteed17 Год назад

Jordan.. you are a blessing to the world. An enlightened thinker shining light through a dark time

@tomdixon1213 Год назад

When I hear this talk, I realize how accurate it is to see JBP as the great seeker. My hope is that by the end of this decade Canada 🍁 will have a different government and, probably over his objections, nominate him for the Nobel Peace Prize in Humanities. This superstar will be honored for his contribution to a better human condition. We have all benefited. ❤

@axidhaus Год назад

Justin Timberfake has got to go

@okami425 Год назад

@@axidhaus lol are purposefully using the wrong name??

@kevreeduk222 Год назад

@@okami425 Not sure if you misunderstood, but I'm pretty sure that it's a barely disguised derogatory name for Justin Trudeau, not a criticism leveled against any of the men in this video.

@axidhaus Год назад

@@okami425Justin Turdeau

@kellyeab Год назад

I agree, once the PC party loses Poilievre on or before the end of this decade we will be in a better position to have a change in government. In the mean time it looks like the Liberals will likely win the next election in 2025 and govern until 2029. Let's hope by that time that a good Conservation leader comes forward.

@hobbsmatt Год назад

Time for a part 2 of this discussion!

@ryanfernando7033 Год назад

I love it when JP talks,it makes you really wanna listen and I'm a bad listener,I got bored really quick and my attention is easily distracted,so I like this about him,somehow he can make you listen without you noticing it,and I ended up finishing the whole video and learning a lot,so thank you for that sir!

@gwenechotaylor96 Год назад

Our three Wise Men for the post modern age. The arc of the Star in the heavens still points the way. What a blessing to listen to these men weave their words and wisdom.

@ntokozomalunga693 Год назад

Hear hear! Beautifully written comment.

@countdooku75 Год назад

@@Nah_Bohdi uh what??

@kevreeduk222 Год назад

@@countdooku75 In the days immediately following HM Queen Elisabeth II's death, there were sightings and videos of what was suspected to be a meteorite streaking across the sky as it burned up on entry to the atmosphere. I'm guessing that's what @Nah Bohdi was referring to, but could be wrong.

@alexfox4647 Год назад

Douglas Murray presented keen insight throughout. Please have him back on.

@earthbornalien2888 Год назад

Excellent it nearly makes me consider setting aside my prejudices and actually attending church or at least giving it another try

@stb2324 Год назад

I feel like this conversation fueled my heart, brain and soul.

@willd3rbeast Год назад

Gotta love Douglas Murray and his clarity to define.

@richardkuyper300 Год назад

I find Murray to be more clever than profound. Pageau I is the deeper thinker.

@IpsissimusPrime Год назад

@@richardkuyper300 I tend to agree with you except it's disappointing, for me in any case, that Pageau doesn't effectively communicate the more orthodox concerns of the Eastern Church in this episode. And this coming from a working artist of Eastern Icons, and whose brother has wriiten a great book on the symbolism of Genesis. Murray is the cleverer and more effective speaker here IMO. As an Anglican, he has a keen view on symbolism. Note how he goes into Poets around 1:09. Poetry is the closest we come to understanding the Transcendent. Nothing however beats the actual practice of Contemplative Prayer.

@bluroguevyse08 Год назад

Always excited to see Murray on anyone’s show.

@wellthissucks112 Год назад

Me too!!!! Same with Greg Lukianoff as well

@feeble_stirrings Год назад

I could listen to these 3 talk for days. What a great conversation.

@Pitcher902 Год назад

1:11 a mother sees and feels this kind of surreal, beyond miraculous love when her newborn is placed into her arms for the very first time. It's a moment of love like no other.

@jacklempke7779 Год назад

I see Douglas Murray, I click.

@margaretqueenofscots9450 Год назад

Ikr! He doesn’t do nearly enough interviews to suit me

@aeonsend Год назад

This is such a beautiful conversation. I think the “leap” Jordan and Douglas struggle with is actually having a RELATIONSHIP with the transcendent/divine. It’s not simply about believing, but embodying as Jonathan (and the church) says. If you remain in the sphere of “fiction” and “ethical systems,” you are like an actor that can only study and appreciate acting, but cannot walk out on stage and actually take your part in the play.

@Thesteadfast Год назад

Great comment. Something I'm encountering now. I've always believed but haven't sufficiently stepped on to the stage.

@daniel.lopresti Год назад

Agreed, as I similarly commented above. I love listening to this kind of discussion, but in the end, it's not something that can be rationalised, or arrived at by mental gymnastics. Somewhat ironically, they discuss how the (or a) divine or "meta-being" must necessarily exist for anything else to make sense, in order to make any sort of value judgment, and to derive order from the chaos of our universe, but this seems to miss the obvious (to me) conclusion that solely rational thought cannot allow us to comprehend a divine being in a different plane of existence.

@seekfirstthekingdom4388 Год назад

They are still blinded by their intellect. Faith is much more than a subject one can study in school. In fact the more ‘knowledge’ one has, the harder or further away from the absolute truth they are obtaining

@emmashalliker6862 Год назад

Embody like Mother Teresa who didn't believe in medicine or birth control and thought suffering was a way to heaven? Like that? Pft.

@Thesteadfast Год назад

@Emma Shalliker Claims like that against St. Theresa have been debunked. Cynical people try to tarnish the legacy of good people. Also, Jordan Peterson advocates very strongly for facing suffering as a path to self-improvement. There is a huge difference between telling people to suffer and acknowledging that it is inevitable and the way you face it matters.

@matthewkay1327 Год назад

Thank you gentlemen. Pageau deserves so much more attention. I do find all of life to be circling around a drain hole but each orbit I call out to Christ. Praying for you.

@carrieb.5896 Год назад

Absolutely beautiful. Yes, we should do this again. Brilliant, gentlemen. Thank you.

@josephllinas2672 Год назад

this needed to be 3+ hours long! God bless all of you gentleman. thank you for enlightening and entertaining us.

@jfmm99 Год назад

“Fairy tales are MORE than true. Not because they tell us dragons exist. But because they tell us dragons can be beaten” ~G.K. Chesterton

@Maveriks1010 11 месяцев назад

Dr. Peterson, every now and again I come back to your channel to thank you for saving me.

@Hoi4o Год назад

Fascinating discussion. Douglass had some great questions and points to raise, but I think Jonathan addressed them really well.

@gingey7332 Год назад

Easily the best conversation on the internet. What a joy to have this pocket of those still reaching for the divine despite the madness of the modern world. May Christ bless us all.

@Tai182 Год назад

Wouldn't be surprised if Jordan and Jonathan become two of the greatest intellectuals of the 21st century.

@oambitiousone7100 Год назад

Our Tolkien and Lewis

@famatu Год назад

„What rules, you sons of bitches?“ „Up yours, woke moralists! We‘ll see who cancels who!“ Truly one of the minds of our time

@famatu Год назад

He’s one of the most idiotic intellectuals of our time, that’s for sure.

@stuartkidson1612 Год назад

@@famatu And of course you will back that up with evidence? Or do you just feel like he is so it must be true

@Tai182 Год назад

@@famatu so you get your take of him based on meme clips. Says alot about your attention span...

@desiremugova2563 Год назад

Thank you so much Prof Peterson and your Guests! I think I understand why they are two of your favourite people😀

@paulmonahawk4921 Год назад

This conversation is literally awesome; it put my hairs on end!

@gerardduffy8778 Год назад

"Like the Big bang for instance??" Almost had a public coffee spitting incident.. Thanks for that johnathan because you said what I was thinking!!! Love this interaction.. We need SOOOOOO much more of this!!!💚💚💚

@spacecoyote55 Год назад

Ditto

@gingerbill128 Год назад

Yea i liked that.

@tornasukiii745 Год назад

Difference being anyone who "believes" the big bang theory would drop it if a more concrete explanation was discovered. Jonathan would still think the world was created 6,000 years ago.

@jourdan4am Год назад

@@tornasukiii745 and if something could do a better job of what religion does, in jonathan's mind, then he would drop it. ps suddenly making Jonathan a literalist where he is not is lazy.

@steveb9713 Год назад

@@tornasukiii745 I don’t think he’s ever said that he argues for a creationist interpretation of how old the universe is

@jwt155 Год назад

Since partnering with the Daily Wire, the production and aesthetics with your videos have been second to none Jordan. Very much excited to see what potential you have in the years to come with the full support of DW to realize your vision and have fascinating conversations.

@megagun56 6 месяцев назад

You got me to go back to church (and read the incredible Brothers Karamazov). Your insights and commentary have been instrumental in me rediscovering faith and reflecting on the truly meaningful things in life. All I can say is God bless you gentlemen!

@arivindharanbalakrishnan418 Год назад

Pageau's full smile can uplift anyone's mood

@naufrago7676 Год назад

I actualy saw Jonathan in one of my latest psilocybin trips. Out of nowhere, his face with that wide smile, and I came to realize in that moment how much of God's grace Jonathan has in his smile... That's rather a weird comment, I know

@ronjon7942 11 месяцев назад

I loved how I could see his brain processing a 'quip' with that smile.

@laurahenderson2384 Год назад

The reason why fictional classics resonate so clearly and eternally is because there is something in it that reflects the Truth God created us to need to understand. The more clearly it reflects this, the more timeless and satisfying it feels to us

@jennymcgowin9140 Год назад

I am completely overwhelmed by this conversation, in a great way! God bless you three men!♥️♥️♥️

@PlumGustave Год назад

Thank you. This was amazing synchronicity ~ covering so many areas I’ve been considering this week. Jonathan is such a beautiful person. Brilliant to hear Douglas in dialogue like this. Very inspiring indeed.

@miareal1746 Год назад

Just absolutely brilliant minds. 🙏👏❤️🙏👏❤️🙏👏❤️

@kbeetles Год назад

Listening to this conversation with echoes of the Orthodox Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's lectures on Personhood, the Jesus prayer etc.... still in my ears - this is holding me so firmly in the Christian faith. Unimaginable bliss.....

@attalan8732 Год назад

This man is producing more crossovers than Marvel could ever dream of.

@Jakeross123 Год назад

I’m always so grateful that I can be privy to these incredible conversations. I’m also amazed that I can follow them most of the time! Really looking forward to “We who wrestle with God” - Jacob…

@trynachill Год назад

This is Jordan in his element. Putting words around the seemingly conflicting but possibly symbiotic relationship between religiosity and science. This is the shit i love to see him speak about. I still watch and sometimes appreciate his political commentary and occasionally incendiary tweets, but this is really where he shines and i think should keep his focus on in terms of content topics.

@zeno2501 Год назад

Douglas brought this together beautifully with his final words. That was a wonderful close to a wonderful conversation. Thanks guys.

@JakeThe_Dog Год назад

@@hairypawter8475 BAD BOT

@muffinman2946 Год назад

@@hairypawter8475 Say what?

@onesixfour1905 Год назад

@@hairypawter8475 lmfao indeed. Dude calls himself a christian atheist and is gay. What is this sorcery? Was it really the wrong part who lost ww2?

@3uphoric Год назад

You can see and feel the passion in the conversation. Brilliant stuff. Thank you!

@our2kidsMR Год назад

Blown away at this conversation. Thank you.

@thattimestampguy Год назад

3:18 Douglas Murray 3:48 Johnathan Pageau 5:20 Fell into new atheism 6:44 Can a society continue to survive in its form if it cut itself off from what gave it birth? 11:50 Science, Religion, like in kind. 12:36 Enacted Mode of Being 14:55 Why You Need A Uniting Principle 1. Positive Hope 2. - Confusion Disarray 15:58 Mechanical ⚙️ 17:50 Chain of Belief 19:48 Saw it was Good 20:58 Death of God 💀 🪦 24:04 Where do Values come from? 26:53 Why do we think people are The Same? 28:20 Are we beings with value? 29:48 Created in the image of God 30:44 Monotheism Why do anything? 32:54 What should be in The Divine Place? 34:56 Deepest Truth 36:02 Events Happen in A Meta Manner? 37:13 Causal, Pattern, Source of Reality 38:28 Implicit In The Order 40:08 41:05 It’s Different 42:29 The Passion: Death, Death, Death 43:44 Confronting Hell 44:43 Courage Life would radically transform if everyone was responsible 46:24 Fear, Desperation 47:33 Underlying Good 49:32 Redemption Beyond Time 53:35 Orienting Toward Love 55:15 You can’t reduce Jesus, it leaves it mysterious 56:58 Sacrifice 59:16 Non-Believers Problem 1:02:17 • Engaging • Engrossing • Actives Positive Enthusiasm 1:04:05 Phenomina 1:04:54 😊Meaning is necessary for Living 1:06:36 Love counters Suffering 1:08:15 Leninism cheapened 1:09:00 Love Gets You Through The Eternal Inside The Finite 1:12:19 A Love That Survives Death ☠️ 💗 1:13:47 1:14:43 The Beauty Out of Reach It’s Embodiment It’s Practice It’s Worship Gratitude 1:16:36 Source of Life 1:17:06 Practice Makes Perfect Sin - Missing The Mark 1:20:37 Given Up The Beauty, replaced with Banal 1:23:33 Ancient Liturgy 1:25:45 Return to Galilee 1:27:47 Reductio vs The One Holy 1:29:08 Caricature vs Participative Celebration 1:31:14 Basic Questions

@asara8065 Год назад

Thank you

@MyPastorTalks Год назад

Jordan Peterson is so wise he tells you what you already know, before you realize you’ve known it all along.

@adampindell Год назад

As a matter of fact, he has articulate many things I believed to be true, or rather, ideas I was starting to develop and think through.

@MyPastorTalks Год назад

@@adampindell absolutely same here sir !

@im_that_guy Год назад

Ironically, this comment did exactly the same thing lol

@starchaser6024 Год назад

Sorry, not beautiful

@wideawakeandaware-22 Год назад

Yes, he’s brilliant!

@timthompsonmusic Год назад

This is, without hyperbole, the ONLY conversation I’m interested in. Bless them.

@jakeschwartz2514 Год назад

This is a great conversation... but i'd rather listen to "Pass me not, oh gentle Savior"

@honkytonk4465 Год назад

What?

@honkytonk4465 Год назад

@@jakeschwartz2514 what?

@andrewstorer7902 Год назад

Very worth listening to. It's all about what we've lost with the fall of religion and how we can get it back in these highly materialistic and pragmatic times.

@nobbynose4254 Год назад

What an excellent conversation "What will survive of us is love" wow

@drew5015 Год назад

Really appreciate how Douglas can be skeptical of but not disrespectful to believers. Really feels like most atheists/agnostics/non-believers in the scene can't discuss faith without taking unfair cheap shots. Love this conversation.

@profeh3346 Год назад

👏👏👏ENCORE! ❤❤❤ WOW WOW WOW I thank God for these three gentlemen. That I am privelidged enough to witness this conversation is truly RU-vid at its best. Thank you gentlemen I will be listening agaim and again to this conversation for some time to come.

@ernest108 Год назад

Thanks for putting this conversation together. What a breath of fresh air in a world of banality.

@jonathanhill1126 Год назад

Please do this again. What an excellent talk. Thank you!

@calebsmith1899 Год назад

"Everybody needs a miracle to explain everything else whether its the big bang, the Resurrection or something else. Give me the Resurrection and everything else makes so much sense" BOOOOOM Pageau nailed that one, bonus points for quoting C.S. Lewis

@marekp6858 Год назад

The funny thing is, it can be turned around and it works just as well...

@calebsmith1899 Год назад

@@marekp6858 Not really because everything can't come from nothing. There has to be a first cause. And if you admit miracles exist at all - whether the big bang or the resurrection, then there is a Miracle Maker

@calebsmith1899 Год назад

@@GregorDuckman I absolutely got that from Bill Craig, but its also common sense and its also a great argument. I would love to see WLC on here.

@ro4486 Год назад

@@GregorDuckman you have no response, keep rolling your eyes all you want.

@RainbowDevourer Год назад

I really don't get the rapidity C.S. Lewis and others go from "Materialism isn't sufficient" to "therefore Christianity is the only thing that makes sense" Why not other religions? Why are they invalid?

@josephmoya9929 Год назад

I absolutely love these conversations.

@andrewlanny3478 Год назад

Practice loving. If everyone was good at loving each other, game over.

@jennymcgowin9140 Год назад

That’s the second time I’ve listened to this conversation. I love you guys! It was so damn interesting! Thank you!

@rustyshackelford17 Год назад

Jordan and douglas. Two of my heroes. Well done!

@williamburton9232 Год назад

This made an hour and half feel as if it were but a moment. Thanks for the excellent dialogue!

@ldevon2318 Год назад

This is it. The conversation I needed to learn from.

@computerScienceCV Год назад

Great conversation. Great questions from Douglas.

@janicemacpherson4158 Год назад

What a feast of wholesome content for us to digest. Better than loaves and fishes for our well-being. We are so blessed that these brilliant speakers can share with us all that wisdom and truth. One day I hope that some of the circuit team will come down under for face to face interaction for our edification. Praying that I might live that long.😥

@lukehart7225 Год назад

@Sen Dog So Jordan Peterson is saying that a hurtful mother that puts her children out into the world and get broken and hurt; is better then a kind mother, that holds us, and protects 57:10

@Houd_Vast Год назад

I could go for a loaf of fish right now.

@judithwalker9694 Год назад

@@lukehart7225 she is not a hurtful mother but a wise one who knows that her children can't fulfill their potential as humans if they don't take on the perennial human task of contending with reality/suffering/meaning and try to find, and actualize, their own mission in this world. That's something no parent can do for us. Mothers prepare us in part, hopefully, but they can't fulfill the child's mission and potential. They break the child's spirit if they try to hold them back from all risk and danger. They have to let go -- but it's painful for them to do so (the mothers) so some unwisely don't, and damage their children by that clinging.

@jaybailleaux630 Год назад

I love this high brow stuff . As a commoner I have the ability to understand it but do not have the time to do the tremendous amount of research they do. That is why I listen to them.We must question what we believe to find truth . Truth is what builds faith. Truth is most difficult to find in a world of sin. As far as ethics and morality is concerned ; what the bible says is the true solid ground to stand on. Historically it works when followed. Even an atheist should be able to see the good in the Bible.

@pherwhite Год назад

So powerful....thank you gents for doing what you do so beautifully! And a little pause here and there to let the PHENOMENOLOGICAL IMPACT settle in would help take these conversations to the next level. Thank you Thank you.....