The Language of Creation | Matthieu Pageau | EP 292 

Hey Doctor Peterson. I just wanted to say thank you for everything you've done for people who are lost in life. Five years ago I was a hopeless cocaine addict, and I had no friends and was lonely working a factory job. I stumbled upon one of your videos, and it really spoke to me. I felt overwhelmed and unable to change, but your videos & lectured gave me the guidance I needed. Now I'm sober and have a wonderful wife and son, and have a very good job, and soon to be going to college and trying to go to law school. Thank you for caring, I wish you nothing but the best.

Matthieu's straightforward responses are so refreshing

Hi Jordan! I doubt you’ll see this but I’m going to send it anyway because you deserve to know that you have reached so many people and have helped thousands if not millions of people just like me. As a fellow psychologist (in the making) you inspire me so much I love listening to your perspective and it’s always eye opening. I hope one day I get to meet you. And if I make even a fraction of the difference you’ve made I’d be over the moon with myself. You’ve helped me out of some tough times and I’m sure that’s true for thousands of people across the globe honestly! x

While I am a fan of Jonathan Pageau, I think I may like the way Matthieu Pageau’s brain works even more. Thank you for having him on, Dr. Peterson!

I am ex atheist and i am trying to figure out who i am right now. I am reading this book and i am shocked by the results! Thank You thank You thank You for this talk!

Well, here we are. The moment we've been waiting for. Peterson read Language of Creation. And the moment we never thought would come again. Mathieu Pageau has emerged to the public sphere. It's a good day.

Jordan, if you read this I want you to know that you were for a long time like a father figure to me and that you've helped me tremendously. You do not know me but with my head bowed I've been listening to you diligently for years. I must say that, just like so many other people, I'm forever indebted to you and that you have my gratitude. Thinking about it makes me weep sometimes. I feel like the lost sheep being brought back on God's path by the good Shepherd.

At about 1hr 43 mins in, I understood more now why my Dad would say ''read a little scripture every day'. He passed away before the concept of fractals was talked about, but I think he would have resonated with it just as he would with this wonderful conversation between these 2 profound, yet humble men

Can we have a round of applause for the Pageau family and in particular the brothers because they have exposed themselves to the world for our sake.

Peterson has been absolutely killing it lately

Jordan said it himself, as a psychologist you give someone an optimal challenge that will encourage them to develop and succeed, and that’s exactly what God has done for us. He has given us a task that we will struggle with daily, yet it won’t have us running in a labyrinth. The challenge is to find the way, the truth and the life and put your faith in Him.

I am amazed about why Matthieu's interpretation or explanation of some of the most familiar biblical stories is so much easier to understand and accept than the many I have heard from various churches over a period of 40+ years? Thank you to BOTH for making so much senses, and the hope that we can and still are experiencing the patterns from thousands of years ago. AMAZING!!!

SO glad he had Matthieu on. We can never get enough of this quiet brother

Wow Matthieu Pageau. I never thought I’d see the day!

As someone who went to a Christian school, I have know these stories since childhood... but I have never understood the stroy of Samon until I heard Mr. Pageau explain it... and what an amazingly riveting and self evidently true explanation! Thank you sir, from the bottom of my heart.

I purchased Matthieu’s book a year ago. Just last month I finally had the chance to start reading it. Then here he is on your channel. Perfect.

This is a rare treat which I will enjoy very much. Great job getting him as a guest on the podcast!

I wish Matthieu did more talks, he is great. Thanks for this sir, you've given me a lot to think about.

Jordan, I've listened to hundreds of hours of your podcasts. This is one of the absolute bests if not the best. Thank you Jordan and Matthieu!

I lost touch with my faith years ago and listening to this helps me take steps in the right direction, Great Work!! :,)

I love the way that Matthieu avoids speculating outside of what he knows and has such clarity and depth of understanding about what he does. He articulates it in simple and unadorned language, while also showing great knowledge of the biblical texts and complexity in his thought. I love to listen to him, but I understand that someone like him only speaks when there is something to say. Thank you Matthieu and I hope you will share more when the time is right. Your book is fantastic too.

😱😱😱😱 I am amazed that you got Matthieu on for a discussion! Amazing! I've been dying to hear more from him since his talk with Jonathan years ago. Yes!!!!

Just thank you. I can’t believe I’m able to hear this for free. You have no idea how many souls have you touched Dr. Peterson. Thanks for all your efforts and having these discussions recorded.

Matthieu's book is just pure gold. I haven't found myself so engaged with anything else like I did with this book. Watching this video was also so satisfying. I whish if he would do more to explain this ancient cosmology. There is just nobody out there doing this. Thank you both Dr. Peterson and Matthieu :)

This is the most surprising guest J. Peterson has ever had. I'm looking forward for watching something very serious and profound, here. Finally, the other Pageau brother!

After long and scrupulous factors weighed out in a quasi-Thomistic fashion, and with thanks to you Jordan, John Vervaeke, Jonathan Pageau, Robert Barron, and others, I made the decision to accept and profess the Catholic Faith in full Holy Communion. And still, after hearing what Mattieu Pageau has to say to a further extent, I am blessed to be part of Christ's Church. All of the symbology, psychology, ontology, prayer, Sacred Scripture, Authority, and Continuity harmoniously sing together in a meta-sophisticated, beautiful and true reality. God bless.

I have read Matthieu's book but this talk gave some really great insights above and beyond what's in the book. In particular, Matthieu's explanation of the role of Eve as a "mirror" or "feedback loop" for Adam, and her ability to "talk to the animals" as opposed to just "naming" them was mind blowing. On top of that, his relating that to right wing vs left wing or conservative vs progressive mindsets in society made a lot of sense. This is an immensely helpful concept, because it now puts in perspective the role of the "female" in our life in a manner that cuts through every level of reality. The role of the female (not just those who are biologically female, this means anybody that embodies the "feminine" perspective) is to act as a mirror or counterfoil to the one-sided male perspective. When the masculine/feminine dynamic is well balanced, it provides a critical feedback loop to the "dominant" masculine tendencies and acts as a corrective to them. If however this dynamic is OUT of balance, in particular if the "feminine" convinces the "masculine" to "succumb to the perspective of the marginal" then we experience a "fall" into a lower state, which needs divine intervention (death and resurrection of Christ) to correct! This is amazing stuff.

Can't get enough of these discussions. I can't even begin to describe the level of thought and reflection JBP helps me achieve.

Thank you very much for this Matthieu. I know you usually abstain from social media so this really is a treat for all of us! Keep up the good work

I dearly hope that this means Matthieu will get back to these types of conversations.

I was really mesmerized by Matthieu's book and getting to know him through this conversation has enhanced my admiration and appreciation for him. He's truly one of a kind and I can't even imagine the insight he'll be able to gather in his next book as he works away from the contaminants of city life. He's like the adventurous hero who leaves the confines of the city walls to seek true treasure, amazing!

Just realized the four horsemen of meaning have crystallized: Jordan Peterson, John Vervake, Jonathan Pageau, Matthieu Pageau. We've heard conversations between many subsets (especially of size 2) of these 4, but I think a conversation with all 4 at once would be lightning in a bottle. Without Matthieu in the picture, the more reserved and quiet Pageau voice wasn't heard as loudly as the others; his addition should balance the 3 voices perfectly.

Hey Jordan, sending mountaineer love from West Virginia, you’re words of wisdom, guidance, and helpfulness will never be forgotten by everyone who’ve you’ve changed the lives of. Thank you Jordan.

This is a very penetrating discussion. I'm an atheist, and I've always said, since I discovered JBP's learning and insights, that if anyone could bring me to reexamine, reevaluate... reconsider, my view of religion generally, and the Bible, in particular, it would be JBP. Here with the help of Mathieu Pageau. Maps of Meaning I found VERY difficult to understand and comprehend. Very challenging. However, with videos, lessons like these, in gradually gaining some clarity, some understanding. Much appreciation and gratitude for these discussions. Thank goodness they are recorded.

👏👏👏 I'm a Christian, a philosopher, and discussions like this are like milk and honey, the perception of the Bible as a documentation of psyche and reality (as another facet of its religious implications). Good work man, and really insight-ivizing. Thank you

Jordan please keep doing live events if you can, I am in the UK and want see you in person, it would mean the world - currently I'm poor, but going to do everything I can to see and watch you live. Thank you for everything that you have done and continue to do.

Amazing that Mathieu is back. He has had such a big impact ob me, I am reading his book daily.

I love this in-depth focus on Christianity lately. I really believe that it contains the transformational power to restore hope and faith to the west. Peterson continues to do extremely important work. Thank you.

JP and co are seriously convincing me to open up a Bible and go to a church. I'm real close. I never thought I would, but it just seems to make more and more sense the more I think about it.

Absolutely wonderful conversation, and I now have two new books on my to read list, thank you

HE'S ALIVE 😳

I am really looking forward to this. Thank you for having Matthieu on, and Matthieu, thank you for being here.

This was so edifying. Thank you! I always enjoy listening to the Pageau brothers.

invigorating, nourishing , many of us are in tears of all emotion , pure appreciation and open peaceful wonder .... they are saying they feel your good intentions and love for this perplexing experience of body, conscious, space, ... many are also saying its healing and motivating and appreciate the manner and gentle translation of such difficult conceptions, experiences, stories, ... life.... the response is overwhelming and i agree deeply from the highest..... thank you , health and peace all

Thank you Dr. P! I truly love your Biblical series and Bible based lectures, equally the other subjects you focus on. The gift you provide your audience cannot be fully repaid. A heartfelt thank you from our family of six who listen, dissect and digest together.

This is just beyond exceptional. Matthieu has eyes that can see, ears that can hear and a mind that deeply understands.

One of the best Peterson conversations. And the is saying something. I love the bible and this will give me a valuable new key. THANKS!

What an amazing conversation. I remember when I was in my early 20's and freshly married. My husband hated that I loved to read fiction books..mostly great fantasy. He thought it was a waste of my time and even repeated that later when one of our children was present. I tried so many times to tell him those books had incredible bits of wisdom in them that I loved reading in story form. He was so resistant even though his friends would read books I would recommend. He would read "spiritual books" but considered everything else to be a waste of his time. Any book that would help me understand the bible is exciting. Thanks to both of you for your amazing ability to think and write.

I bought Matthieu’s book a few years ago and it’s a fantastic read. Now I have to re read it.

a bit surprised to learn that JP didn't remember the first interview. it was wonderful! as is this one! grace and peace everyone 💜💕

Finally this book is getting more recognition and heck yeah-it’s great! Thank you JP

Praise God that we are able to watch men of such intellectual and spiritual caliber have this type of discussion. We are blessed.

Much grattitude & love from Belgium, to you & your family Jordan, you're so respected and you are a true inspiration, wishing you loads of good health.

Thank you guys I truly appreciate You guys, we do need these types of conversations badly. Love.

I think the Pageau brothers creative minds decipher these topics very differently than I’ve seen from others. I could listen to them talk all day. The Doc does an amazing job of asking questions that really help entice conversation from this interview. I’m in the midst of a rabbit hole of both the Pageau brothers at the minute and I’m loving it.

I can not describe how much utility this conversation offers. Excellent!

What a combo! So good to finally see you talk with Matthieu!

The Pageaus are some of my favorite people, I empathize with their world view greatly.

I’m an LCSW and found this interview so informative. I am so happy to have found you Dr Peterson! I have been on quite a ride in my 73 years and am a life long seeker of Truth. You have given me hope and confidence to do my work without fear, in love and Truth. God bless you in all you do to uplift humanity.

As a youth, when I was confirmed, I was told that one of the gifts available I could pray for from The Holy Spirit, was the gift of Wisdom. So I prayed and prayed asking the Holy Spirit for any wisdom that He thought I might be worthy of. Over time so much has been made clear and opened up to my understanding. I am so grateful to the Holy Spirit for His gifts. Jordan, I would love for you to pray the Sorrowful Mysteries of the Rosary with Bishop Barron. Wow , he explaineds everything so well. I would love to know what you think.

If you dislike Jordan Peterson, then you've never truly listened to him.

Jonathan is fantastic, but my mind works more like Matthew's. He's wonderfully direct - a true gift of clarity. Interestingly, Matthew, being the more reclusive brother, is more direct, and Jonathan, the more public figure, is more abstract. A great combination.

I love this conversation. I love seeing things in a fractal way, I am careful not to become lost. I usually try to do something to record or document what I see , which if I am really in the flow turns out like a mix of fractal geometry and abstract art including other things I can barely describe it , I find that with a bit of patience, and reflection on a piece that I can see and interpret and perceive what it is or was that I was seeing for lack of better words. Sometimes it's drawings and numbers and connections and writings. Like receiving a download of information I try keep myself tapped in as long as I can whilst I note down and or create some kind of translation of whatever it is or was. My mind is usually an observer and I use my senses to help aid the focus to complete which usually is at the time of an inner prompt to drop my pen and breathe . By the way , the lamp that looks like an 8 or an infinity symbol behind Matthiew captured my eye, I find it to be quite interesting. Thank you both for this, it is very interesting and productive and good conversation. Much to ponder on. Labyrinths dont work , nor a maze , it is more like a design that allows movement and flow and openess and ease of navigation and good intent rather than a troubling trap like place or path or trail. It is worth the while looking at landscape design and permiculture design , garden design. I am currently busy developing one right now that is almost like a mandala and there are many functions to take into account and attention to detail as well as careful tending to and re modeling , but basically it's the aim to be innovative and life aiding , no Labyrinths or mazes or puzzles or confusion at all, it is not okay to create an illusion. It has to actually work. Certain music helps me here . I really think that understanding the principles of photography would help you understand light and perception and perspective etc A picture is worth way more than words, it has a great large amount of information embedded in it. Go into understanding the history, development, current, and graphic design , principles of each. They help a tremendous amount. Even learning photography will expand your mission. I completely agree that it takes proof . Application. And obedience. Carrying out instructions and teachings. I'm already busy . The method works you are right , Matthiew- you are very gifted. Jordan , yet again well done, you are a legend

I can't get enough of watching this guy!! How amazing it would be to sit for a few hours and pick his brain? He puts in perspective so many things from the trivial to the enormous and morality of things or this world and in us. I can't believe they want him to take a "re-education" class! He's brighter, deeper, more complex and yet simplistic of a thicker than all of them put together! He doesn't abandon or hide his morals, values, ethics or ideals in regard to the idiotic idea that he needs to reLEARN them to appease. This guy stands alone in a sea of narcissistic vipers that act all haughty and knowledgeable and Superior. You can have all the education or knowledge in the world and still not get something for its base meaning or deeper connections to other things or ideals.

Been looking forward to this forever!!

This is awesome! Pageaus book has been a total shift in perspective and he’s such an interesting person... he’s been a bit reclusive on here which makes this even more intriguing. Thank you both for doing this.

This was what I needed to understand a portion of John Vervaeke's historical half of the meaning crisis series. I really struggled to make sense of the continuous cosmos and also what that meant in relation to the gnostic cosmology. Now after about a year it finally all clicked into place. Thank you Matthieu. This was so valuable. Also the discussion of the first-born was really helpful. As an only-child, this paints the stories in a light that resonated and afforded some insight

These conversations are absolutely profound, like I discovered some secret treasure nearly upon every listen. I read Matthew's Book at least twice and was absolutely stunned by it's clarity in presenting these ideas. I really hope to hear more Matthew he balances his brother Jonathan's view in an important way.

Matthieu Pageau in a video?! That's a rare treat.

09:44 Hearing Peterson realize that the word “point” is a description of the top of a hierarchy brought me joy after years of hearing the Pageaus make these kinds of profound elaborations on such colloquial language. Nihilists and atheists use hierarchical language all the time without noticing the contradiction. The world is a hierarchy and symbolism reveals it all around us.

Good morning Mr Peterson, I’m not sure if you will read this but I felt it necessary to send you this message. I have never done this before, I’m a Jamaican in Jamaica now living but lived in the UK for over 20 years. My entire life is a struggle even to this day but you have been a source of inspiration for me. I just watched you on the Piers Morgan interview, I didn’t watch it all and I will as soon as I’m done here and maybe I’m getting it wrong but can remember a store I heard about a man that thought that giving all he had would help to save the world or something like that but in the end he would die and not accomplish much. I can’t say I see much good people in the world we are living in today and I don’t know jack about you either but I can see your work and the things you’re trying to do and I commend you for what you are doing and for your endless effort in helping us. For these things I don’t want to see you leave us but at the rate of how your going you will soon one way are the other. I can see this world is taking everything out of you and I can tell you, not much will change in the end. We don’t want to hear nothing tragic happening to you because a lot of us that you have helped to bring up with your kind words and understanding and care will fall back down, and that’s not because you didn’t do things right are faults of our own but because we are tired to see very good people wast away by this world that is like a water bucket with many holes in it, too many to be fixed. I’m trying to say preserve yourself, if not just for you but for us who count on just your existence in this time as a brother, a father, a friend, a career. You have my respect and the respect of so many others all over the world and it hurt us to watch you burn out like I think I’m seeing. I don’t know if what I’m writing makes much sense, I just saw a RU-vidr showing the clip of the interview and it broke my heart a bit and I thought I would write this to let you know that you mean a lot to a lot of people. Let Jah Bless you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Finally someone understands why emperor Constantine was brilliant in his insight to what the cross symbolism could contribute to stabilizing a delicate political puzzle. He found the one piece that brought peace to the Roman Empire at a critical time in its history. Cutting strait to the chase.............. The imagery of the Cross is the vertical line represrnting the connecting the energy of multiple other dimensions to this 3rd dimension as in " In the name of the Father and of the Son. Then the horizontal "through the power of the Holy Spirit" indicates the energy of spirit as the conduit between dimentions. The body language is great because the signing of the cross is so rudimentary and confirming of intention. It's like dialing the operator for your connection. Also, tapping the forehead draws the attention of the mind's soul to be aware that tapping the heart will energize a 3rd dimention focused message through the energy power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. It's tiring listening to critics of the Cross symbol claiming that Christianity is a blood culture. I wish our own team understood the symbol that Constantine so wisely read into that image and how well it established a code for faith, hope and charity and malleable through time regardless of human shortcomings. After all, the was only one human without a stain on his character and he served as Whipper Boy for the rest of us or so the biblical narrative reads. Of course life is more complex and thzt's why we have metaphors and allegories but religion gives the roadmap to faith, hope and charity to all inclusive. Symbolism of Cross is shortcut to all incusive Agape love not a blood cult closed Society code. The restraints of religion are psychological but that serves the objective of civil behavior otherwise human reaction will lead to knee-jerk reaction and regrete. Religious symbalism keep us in the zone of remembering who, what, where, etc and respect for all others from any walk of life. Picturing the open communication symbol of the Cross I say 'In the name of the Creator and of the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit have a Happy Easter' Agape Salute. Cheers.

Appreciative of the pace, tone, explanation in the new forming ideas in the conversation, the highlighting of the parallels, and open energy in the conversation. For all the denseness/heaviness of the topics, this conversation was accessible and stimulated new ways of thinking. Enjoyed this one, thank you both!

As always, amazing content, amazing discussion. Thank you to you both

Wonderful to hear more from Matthieu. Excellent interview - eye opening as always from the Pageaus and lots to think about . 👏👏👏

I wish I could of had him as a Professor. He still makes me think twice about quite a few things. I learn more from him than from most other speakers.

To Jordan Peterson. Bless you for allowing God to use you in such a profound way. You are greatly loved and appreciated by a large group of learners and searchers including myself. Thank you, sir.

This filled so many gaps for me, things I knew had to be there but couldn't find. As I recall the scriptures that I can, what Matthieu has learned fits perfectly and further explains every one of them.

It’s literally mind blowing, have to pause after 15 min to process a bit the ideas. Thank you Jordan for the great entreprise to bring wisdom to the crowd!

Thank You Mr. Matthieu Pageau , for your time today, your long exploration and dedication to squaring our insight :)

I cant believe Mathieu did this. Outstanding.

Oh man...I've been waiting for this moment ever since reading your book Matthieu. It was so helpful in helping me understand the mind of Western man. Can't wait to watch this.

When I have a tough decision to make in my life, and I am contending with theories beyond me, and failing to make sense of it all, relationships, finance, ethics and all the in between, I come here. This man has changed my world, and whenever I can I pray for him, that he would find Grace in the sight of the Lord and truly live long and impact more yet to come. I am awake and conscious today, and I have words for things around me. All thanks to this great and awesome man. Matthieu Pageau is BRILLIANT!!

Wonferful to listen to two minds of clarity respect and complementary gleanings, discuss so much meaning. Thank you.

How could possibly somebody regardless of being religious or atheist not liking such a beautiful conversation?

Fantastic. I just got done reading 'The Language of Creation' yesterday. It was very eye-opening. This conversation is such perfect timing. "Humanity's purpose in the universe is to know God as the perfect answer to the riddle of life and death." -Matthieu Pageau, The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism: A Commentary

Matthieu Pageau, my everything is forever grateful for your insights and sharing them in the form of your book The Language of Creation. Brilliant is an understatement.

What a wonderful conversation! Thank you for sharing. The 2+ hours flew by quickly. I will have to listen to it at least one more time just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

I am thankful for your contribution to humanity Jordan.

Thank you so much for putting so many things into context. The nature of chimera / demiurge / hybrid creatures at the borderlands of conceptual structures and the half of Jacob that was made limp so he would slow down to learn the right lessons, all provided clarity for the experiences / imagery one has navigated in the past 7 years. Thank you so very much. 🙏

Just saw an interview where you were emotional Mr Jordan Peterson. Just wanted to say you are a wonderful gentleman helping others and the world is a better place for you, please don't change my family and I have been learning and growing so much from you. Thank you for this video too

Thoroughly enjoyed this talk. I hope to see Jordan and Matthieu talk again.

Jonathan wasn’t kidding, this is a miracle!! ❤

Intriguing conversation. Ironically, I wrote a thesis on snake symbolism, after having 40 snake dreams in which the creature appeared polymorphously, as friend and foe, culprit, magician, healer, etc. It is very interesting how "loaded" the snake / serpent and our response to it is. Anything that evokes such an intense response in so many people must be worthy of discussion and seen as a doorway to the depths.

What a conversation. Absolutely beautiful.

You are a gift to us all..thank you Mr Peterson, I rely on your shows to get thru these times 👍

This is truly transcendent work from Maps of Meaning. For me, it's uncanny the timeliness as I've just finished reading it. Thank you, and God bless.

Love this. Matthieu draws out some of the old JBP in this interview.

This is the JP content I love the most. Fascinating conversation. And I just started Matthews book.

Thank you Dr. Peterson! Amazing as always. I'm getting the book. Great conversation.