Downscaling Chronicles 3: Extron 240p Trick. Pseudo 240p via the VSC 500 + RGB 580xi Interface DDSP

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Photosensitivity warning Best watched in 1080p 60fps to see interlacing and scanlines.
The mythical Extron Interface Trick has been touted as an accessible hardware solution to downscale modern consoles to 240p. But be warned, it's HARDLY as accessible as I thought…
‘Fake 240p/pseudo 240p’ requires 2 devices: an Extron VSC unit and an Extron RGB interface with DDSP (Digital Data Sync Processing). The VSC unit will downscale 1080i, 720p and 480p to 480i. The interlaced 15KHz RGB video will output to the Extron RGB Interface, where a design-quirk causes the interlacing fields to draw progressively when DDSP is off. Then the VSC’s flicker filter can be increased to stabilise the image for the aforementioned pseudo 240p.
The VSC 500 featured in this video is a flexible standalone 480i downscaler. It so far has unrivalled picture controls to complement the Auto Set feature which centres and re-sizes the video to fit the screen almost perfectly every time. Although it gets my recommendation, it’s not all roses as featured in this episode.
So do I recommend the Extron Interface 240p trick? Short answer: NO. At the very least, it's a peculiar spectacle in the rare scenarios where it does work. I don’t consider myself fortunate to have experienced it first hand or anything so don’t feel you’re missing out if this has failed to work for you. This method was in fact, the first time I downscaled anything to 240p back in 2018. The stars just happened to align when it worked on the Sony BVM 20F1, and downscaling with anything else was all up from here.
Links and credits
‪@RetroRGB‬
Thanks Bob for the clarification on this funky method! Supporter Q&A 275
• Supporter Q&A #275
Become a Patreon to get all of your Retro and RGB questions answered:
/ posts
‪@mylifeingaming‬
GBS-C downscaling episode featuring Bob’s footage and lag analysis on the Extron Emotia
• HD Games Downscaled to...
‪@Ex_Savior‬
Video featuring the Extron Super Emotia. Also an awesome channel!
• Downscaling Series Epi...
‪@energyzer_bunny1913‬
Successfully using the Extron 240p Trick on a consumer Sony Trinitron.
• Extron 580xi: Pseudi 2...
‪@TheRetroChannel‬
Tang Nano Time Sleuth Tutorial
• Monitor input lag test...
Fudoh’s Hazard City Scanlines Demystified blog
scanlines.hazard-city.de
Video Game Perfection (VGP) Article on the Extron Interface Trick
videogameperfection.com/2019/...
#crt #240p #retrogaming
00:00 - Intro
04:32 - Setup, lag and scaling tests
08:05 - How it works
11:13 - How it DOESN’T work
13:49 - Final thoughts

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Опубликовано:

3 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 51

@ldigital8691 9 месяцев назад

This is so niche but I’m here for it. Well done on the vids. They are really high quality

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

Thank you! It’s been a very time consuming but fun venture exploring the quirks in CRT’s and downscaling

@Fattydeposit 8 месяцев назад

Incredible work, supreme channel.

@MarcoRetro316 8 месяцев назад

Hey! Thanks again for your support, much appreciated!

@TheAlphaOmegaX3 9 месяцев назад

The search continues. We need a easy way to take 1080p/720p to 240p. Thank you for putting in all the work!

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

A dedicated downscaler with HDMI input, RGB/component output without sync combining etc. would be the dream. Made for retro gamers by retro gamers. The journey’s only begun and more to come. Thanks for tuning in!

@harb1911 9 месяцев назад

@@MarcoRetro316 just get yourself an Kramer VP-437xl and go play with custom resolutions. it already outputs 480i/576i out of the box so 15khz support is guaranteed. you can go with VP-724xl if don't want to spend that amount but you will lose the convenience of having native HDMI inputs with HDCP and 422/420 chroma support.

@energyzer_bunny1913 9 месяцев назад

Wow, I'm surprised that my video resurfaced! I made that video about 4 years ago. At that time, I was using a NTSC PS2 going into a Sync Strike, into the 580xi, to a 5 BNC cable, to a D-SUB to component converter. I wasn't using a VSC 500. At the time, I didn't have a Super Emotia, or a Retrotink 5x. It works ok compared to my other solutions. I still had some instances where the screen would boot up at 480i, but it would often need time to warm up into pseudo 240p. Also, I did experience the screen being way out of place at times. Most of the games I was using this for were for 480i arcade ports of games that were designed for 240p. Most of those games had screen controls built into the game, so that wasn't a problem. The 580xi was a decent solution AT THAT TIME, but now I don't recommend it. It's only a special use case device and now they're very hard to find. The image it did give off was a SOFT 240p. There was some flicker, but it was HARDLY noticeable. It was still much better than 480i. I was lucky to get it to work. But today, I don't recommend it. There are so many better options nowadays.

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

The man himself! Thanks for stopping by. I remembered your video from years ago back when this was my downscaling method in my setup too, took some time to find it again. It’s definitely not the best method for 240p but it’s a fun oddity if you get it working and yours was the only case I could find where it worked on a consumer TV. The VSC was to drop the resolution to 480i first, but in your case the PS2 was already outputting what you needed for the xi trick. The ‘warm up’ sounds exactly like my experience with it but it still exclusively worked on the BVM. Are you still rocking a CRT all these years later?

@hunterrichert4329 9 месяцев назад

Thank you again. Had purchased one of the 580xi units a couple of years ago in hopes to try the "trick" on an oev203 (m2mdu) as well as a few consumer sets but read somewhere it only produced ttl sync. Was too afraid to bother with it and now it just sits next to a sc210 and a rgb190f that have yet to find use case scenarios. I was thinking about using the h shift on the 580xi as a rgb only horizontal control for systems that like to display to far to one side maybe. I do like the corio2 so much that i just got a rackmount for it so it can live in there forever, or until I throw my back out again swapping it for something better. Can't wait to see what you come up with.

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

The ‘trick’ is cool to experiment with but even if it works it’s still a very soft and clunky option. You must have a ‘plus’ variant of sorts as my 580xi’s don’t have H shift. They do output TTL C-sync but pro monitors usually handle it no problem or you can put a 470ohm resistor on the sync output to drop it to safer levels. Once the Corio’s all set up it just ‘works’, they’re not the absolute sharpest or fastest but they’re still amazing. I so far still use it as my downscaler in the setup, until it’s dethroned by something superior. Thanks for tuning in and over again for the kind comment!

@hunterrichert4329 9 месяцев назад

@MarcoRetro316 was looking at the h-shift on the rgb 190f when I said that. Nvm. Also was just reading the manual for the corio2 and it also outputs ttl level sync. Also remember you saying that now. Glad I haven't used it on any consumer sets. Really need to get a oscilloscope some day.

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

@hunterrichert4329 the little scope I use is the same one RetroRGB recommended in a feature video. They’re cheap and simple, perfect for small things like measuring sync voltage

@eccentricviews 9 месяцев назад

Downscaling?! 2023 is getting so strange, in so many ways😂… however, I do love a good CRT / scan line filter when playing old retro games👍🏼 or even better, play them on an old CRT tv😃

@fink32 Месяц назад

If you change the registry setting on the ps3 (jailbroken / hen) you can change a PAL ps3 to output 480i/480p even in the menu.

@MarcoRetro316 Месяц назад

I did not know, thank you! I will look into it

@fink32 Месяц назад

@@MarcoRetro316 no problem. I did it with mine. It’s on the psdev wiki under XRegistry(dot)sys. And setting/display/tvSystem You can find a registry editor

@fink32 Месяц назад

@@MarcoRetro316 setting/display/tvSystem should be set to 0. Pretty sure 1 is PAL I did it along time ago to my ps3.

@MarcoRetro316 Месяц назад

@@fink32 thanks again, it is MUCH appreciated. It seems pretty straightforward

@protasov-by 5 месяцев назад

Do you know some deinterlacer that do sd s-video to some progressive component at least but do deinterlacing not by rejecting or bob fields but motion adaptive? Like passing 50/60i SD we got same but true 50/60p? 😅

@MarcoRetro316 5 месяцев назад

Older Professional video equipment should have decent motion-adaptive de-interlacing with an S-video input and RGB output. Try looking for scalers with an S-video input by brands like Extron, Kramer, Crestron and DVDO. I’m not sure lag is a factor for you depending if it’s solely for video or if it’s for gaming, but Extron DVS scalers tend to have about a frame of lag. The Retrotink 5x/4K and XRGB mini Framemeister will also take S-video 480i and output smooth de-interlaced 480p. Even the Retrotink 2x does an ok job of hiding the Bob de-interlaced flicker with the smoothing filter

@uppstg 3 месяца назад

hi, weird question but does squishing/stretching the image horizontally with the gbsc/vsc introduce shimmering when scrolling? i have some pretty nasty overscan on a tv so i've been looking into ways to reduce it while downscaling; the gbsc and/or the vsc are appealing with their zoom functions, but there really isn't much information out there related to them

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I didn’t notice any shimmering with a CRT when I resized the video using those devices

@b2collects 3 месяца назад

I have an extron vsc700 which I used it to downscale from 1080p and 720p and 480p to 480i using hdmi to vga to rgbhv And outputting through component video. It all worked fine but then it stopped downscaling from 1080p and 720p for no reason. It just output a very zoomed frozen image. But downscaling from 480p still work. Any thoughts?

@MarcoRetro316 3 месяца назад

I’ve never had that issue, but I’d troubleshoot all the points of failure. Try multiple input sources and use a different HDMI to VGA DAC. It can be hard to obtain an Extron Insider account but that would give you access to the firmware upgrade tool as well

@IamFearLezz 6 месяцев назад

Awesome video! When dialing in the proper video levels, do you simply connect either output from the interface directly to the oscilloscope?

@MarcoRetro316 6 месяцев назад

Thanks! I displayed a 100% white screen then I had a Y adapter at the BVM. The output signal was on one side, then on the other end of the Y adapter was the oscilloscope and the connection to the BVM, that way it’s measuring while under 75ohm load. If it’s not under load and you connect the scope directly to the interfaces output then you’ll get a higher reading

@IamFearLezz 6 месяцев назад

@@MarcoRetro316Thank you! I don't think my DT-V or my older BVM 1454 have any sort of overload indicator, so I'll be getting one to make sure the levels are safe. By the way, I appreciate your perspective on 480i downscaling. It definitely has its benefits over 240p in certain scenarios and you demonstrate that very well throughout the series.

@MarcoRetro316 6 месяцев назад

@@IamFearLezz It should be relatively safe but it never hurts to dial it in to 700mv. The BVM’s with an overload light have the dreaded PA board for overload protection and my friend had a few fail on him so I’m always cautious. Honestly, 480i looks really nice with HD content and it’s more a necessity if there’s text on screen. Thanks again for the kind comment

@ramiq7932 9 месяцев назад

If this is a 20F1E/U, it seems they all suffer from slight vertical jitter that is seen mostly only up close or around the edges.

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

Prior to recapping the deflection board it was much worse. Now I’d say it jitters no more than any other CRT

@caseywest9668 8 месяцев назад

all i want to do is get my PC running on my trinitron. I bought a GBS-C off aliexpress and i must have gotten a dud, the I can't navigate the GUI picking options doesn't work. This is so godamned difficult, i just want to run Fightcade on my TV.

@MarcoRetro316 8 месяцев назад

The GBS is very finicky at the best of times. Hope you can get into the UI to get it downscaling

@Willy-tt6ez 9 месяцев назад

Was debating trying this trick over using my gbs-c, but it definitely doesnt look like its worth the hassle 😂

@MarcoRetro316 9 месяцев назад

If you’ve already got the equipment then there’s nothing to lose but time 😄

@Kobenete 4 месяца назад

I got the VSC 500 for 480i movies but the screen tearing is kinda distracting and I don't know if it can be fixed. Does the VSC 700 suffer from the same issue?

@MarcoRetro316 4 месяца назад

AFAIK the only difference between the 500 and 700 are the extra inputs and outputs and my guess is they run on the same firmware. That’s a shame though that it’s noticeable in movies. Once you notice it, it’s hard to unsee it

@Kobenete 4 месяца назад

@@MarcoRetro316It's definitely a shame. I just found an emotia recently but after seeing your video on it, I'm not sure it would be good for movies considering the color banding and artifacts(forgot which - the ones at the tony hawk part). Would you say it's worth getting a dedicated 480i downscaler for movies if I have the super emotia?

@MarcoRetro316 4 месяца назад

@Kobenete The Emotia has really bad colour compression so I wouldn’t recommend. If it’s purely for video content and you don’t need any robust picture controls then a generic HDMI to composite scaler with a 16:9/4:3 switch will do but I have no idea if they’ll also have screen tear or stutter. If you need RGB output then a Corio2 tvOne scaler will work well. I can recommend the 750 model and it has 480i/576i output without any modification needed under the resolution labels NTSC and PAL

@MarcoRetro316 4 месяца назад

Otherwise you could always use an XBOX360 or PS3 and use the analog output for 480i. For playing movies from a USB I personally use a raspberry pi 4 with recalbox and RGB Dual scart cable. It installs the application Kodi which is a media player that lets you select output resolutions. If you have a DE10 nano (Mister FPGA) there’s a new core called MisterCast that streams video from your PC to the Mister through your wired home internet connection

@Kobenete 3 месяца назад

@@MarcoRetro316Thanks for the replies, all good considerations. I was wondering, did you try the VSC 100? Maybe it does not suffer from the issue?