Dr. Stuart Hameroff on the Role of Microtubules in Brain Functions and Consciousness #15 

the protoconsciousness is only "seemingly" or "apparently" random as per noncommutativity. Study Alain Connes whom Penrose cites. The inner cross products of the matrice math is based on the discrete numbers as spectral frequency - so there is a "Harmony of Phases" as de Broglie realized with a negative frequency and reverse time phase that is guiding matter from the future.

You can think of music, but it doesn't exist the same way as when you play it. I imagine that is similar to when the body is anesthesia-ized, the instrument is "offline" but can be "picked back up." Why do people have the same personality and memories when they come back from anesthesia?

@@slomnim "Near-death experience in a boy undergoing uneventful elective surgery under general anesthesia" Actually I was just watching this NDE documentary a couple days ago and someone else described having an NDE from anesthesia also.

@@slomnim The 1/2 spin is the inner cross products of the matrices and so the reverse time is the magnetic moment from the 1/2 spin of the virtual photons - as Feynman explained (the magnetic force originates from negative frequency as virtual photons). So our "soul" information that is "hard-wired" as our subconscious intention is from this reverse time magnetic moment storage - that is also a quantum beat undertone or subharmonic from the future as CIA MKULTRA military mind control scientist physiologist Dr. Andrija Puharich figured out (corroborated by Professor Michael Persinger with whom I corresponded). So Prof. Emeritus Stuart Hameroff explains that when a person dies their quantum protoconsciousness maintains quantum coherence as quantum nonlocality - that is due to the noncommutativity of the future and past overlapping as each zero point of spacetime. So there is a deeper "reverse time" that also enables people to have precognitive visions and see the future when they have NDE experiences or do deep meditation or deep psychedelic chemistry etc. A good book on precognitive visions is by Ph.D. psychologist Dr. Christina Donnell, "Transcendent Dreaming" - the precognitive dreams are more vivid and more lucid than being awake! All of our perceptions originate from this nonlocal noncommutative ether that Penrose calls protoconsciousness as fundamental time that is also highly asymmetric and yet coherent as negative entropy for the origin of the Universe. the music I'm referring to is the "transcendental music" as nonwestern music or vocal natural singing - like violins also without the logarithmic equal-tempered tuning. So D. Scott Rogo did a two part book series called NAD using the Indian term for sacred sound connected to Nada as similar to Prana. thanks

@@slomnim The non-materialistic explanation is that the energy body detaches from the physical body under anesthesia, and returns when you wake up. The brain's wiring is still the same as it was. But I have an interesting story. I have recently been getting ketamine IV therapy for anxiety and PTSD and the mild anesthetic effect has allowed my body to release a huge amount of emotional garbage 'trapped' in it. The Buddhist perspective would be that the ketamine pushes the rational mind that resists conscious transformation aside and allows all this shit to rise to the surface. After all my experiences, and my work with energy healers who have save my life after a severe breakdown, addiction and brutal subtle energy problems, I cannot ever believe in the materialistic paradigm again - not that I was ever arrogant enough to do so in the first place. When I tell materialists this stuff, they lose their minds trying to explain to me how it is all psychosomatic and placebo and the brain can trick you and blah blah blah. The idea of nonlocal consciousness is just too scary to consider. It opens an immense door into another world. I think, get over it because I have had to face this reality under a great deal more anxiety than you, and loads of raw terror to boot, so if I can do it, you sure as shit can.

Still doesn't answer the hard question

Such speculations are indeed wonderful; any creative use of imagination is wonderful. But magic without evidence is not science.

Multiple functions for microtubules is acceptable as a speculation. However, so long as there is no actual evidence of any such function it remains a speculation. And the further speculation that the quantum mechanics of microtubules relates to human consciousness is quite a leap. It is not a scientific speculation. Anyone who advocates for magic in a science class can legitimately be viewed with some suspicion.

Yes, there is only one Consciousness, and all of the universe is contained within it. Human bodies are manifested within Consciousness as explained by science, just like everything else, and you can't expect to find any evidence of Consciousness within human bodies or anything else simulated in Consciousness. Our potential for awareness of Consciousness is not based on any characteristic of the body, but simply the fact that the experiencer, the observer is already Consciousness. There is nowhere to go and no process to go through to "find" or Consciousness, as we are already It.

@@david203 Nice to come across someone who understands this properly. The Scientists don't seem to have discerned the difference between Consciousness and Sentience. When they do, the science should be much improved. 👌

@@picksalot1 Agreed. AI is sentient, but can never be conscious, because being conscious is not a computation (and it's not some sort of weird quantum mechanical phenomenon, either--QM is not really weird).

the threshold is based on mass of protons I think - not electrons. The Pi resonance as nonlocality is from the 1/2 spin of the electrons. The protons though are also delocalized. It's based on the Spin-Spin coupling of the protons like in an MRI or the Nuclear magnetic resonance of the protons. So that's what creates the quantum beat - the phase velocity difference between the electron and proton as a "reverse time" undertone or quantum beat. Dr. Andrija Puharich also figured this out in biology only his math was still more classical.

You may like it, but it has never been observed in any experiment.

@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885 There may be a "quantum beat" between two nuclei, but there is no gravity other than that due to masses. No experiment has ever shown gravity to be generated in any way other than by mass, or its equivalent, acceleration.

@@david203 you haven't researched Yakir Aharonov's weak measurement research group experiments on "nega-particles" based on negative mass and quantum nonlocality.

@@david203 Life is an Engineering Marvel of Water: It's Water that Manages Noise to Synthesis Life P Singh, K Ray, A Bandyopadhyay - Biological Antenna to the Humanoid …, 2022 - Springer … Spin-lattice relaxation rates of water protons are observed by considering all possible … tubulin proteins that make the central hollow cylinder. Then we observe the dynamics of tubulin … How Schrödinger's mice weave consciousness M Myakishev-Rempel, IV Savelev - Rhythmic Advantages in Big Data and …, 2022 - Springer … of microtubules … protons delocalize when the basepairs are undisturbed; when basepairs are disturbed by the bumps of infrared photons and water, the protons localize; if the protons …t [PDF] Spatio-spectral eigenmodes of brain waves and neural networks described by an informational quantum code HJH Geesink - 2022 - … in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Bandyopadhyay … Most MRI brain imaging is based on observations of proton nuclear spins. To be useful for neural …

They stop!

Roger and Stuart themselves said that right now they are talking about only a small part of consciousness

Brain activity doesn't produce Consciousness. It doesn't have to. Consciousness is all that actually exists, and brains and universes are manifestations within Consciousness. There is only one Observer, and it is Consciousness. The brain is not an observer; it is a perceiver and calculator.

@@arandomguyontheinternet756 There is no small part of anything that is infinite like consciousness. Separable parts only exist in the simulation we call the universe, which has no reality other than what is lent to it by consciousness.

It is a feedback loop. Different parts of the brain can evaluate each other building the image of self perception. It is my observation based on when antibiotic side effects messed with my brain. I lost the sense of this perception for some time or after deep sleep in a brief moment I don't experience myself. Just is.

​@@david203Does this consciousness compel people to commit atrocities?

Well. How to explain parasitism? Or is it precisely "form of cooperation"? Gaia hypothesis is certainly better than "Inteligent Design" which doesn't hold up any water. But still well is rather unorthodox by Dawkins standards.

And as to Lamarckian inheritance my honest view is that Evolution of Life would failed if that would be a mechanism. If brain could choose how to modify genes that would be disastrous given IQ of most species and even some people (and the fact that the brightest minds still can't crack the entire genome and its all functions. Arik Kirshenbaum also did Simulations that showed extinction of hypothetical species that pass to their offspring Lamarckian inheritance making them inflexible. I love Profesor Emeritus Stuart Hameroff for a following things 1He's progressing towards proving beyond doubt that Cousciousness vanishes under anesthesia and coma. That REM and Psychodelics are opposite of Anesthesia. 2 He proves with Anirban Bandyopadhay that memories are stored inside CAMK2 Proteins and are being stable contrary to what our Harry Potter inspired Boltzmann Brain mad culture proposes Against the empirical evidence provided by Anirban Bandyopadhay and superconductivity of Microtubule. 3 Orch Or if proven automatically falsyfies Simulation Hypothesis showing that consciousness and behavior of conscious animals can't be computed nor mimicked. 4 It's less anthropocentric. Summing above points up as far as I'm concerned it's the only theory that debunks Solipsism and Boltzmann Brain Paradox .

Orch Or is in fact more materialistic theory than what Dan Dennet considers "Materialistic" given that if consciousness could be computed and brain is simple computer it opens way for Bostroms Simulation Hypothesis (brand of Solipsism)

I was an Idealist at best couple of years ago only Sir Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff returned me faith in physicalism and no words can pronounce how greatfull I am to them. Although I think it's hurtful for Hameroffs image all that confronting Dawkins, walking hand by hand with Deepak Chopra, articles about After Life... Wouldn't it be better not to create to much enemies from mainstream science? Guerilla skeptics already demolished Profesors Hameroff Wikipedia page including nothing about experiments that indicate on validity of Quantum Biology and finding of Quantum Luminal Effects in Microtubules going away with Anesthesia! Nothing! Wikipedia only writes about that Diosis failed idea!

Present moment is the time how long Bose Einstein condensation is alive. Memory looks like this: Action potential (;) No action potential (,). ,,,;,,;;,,;;,;;,,;;;,,;,,,,,,;;;,! this was 0,3 sec. Many BE condensations happens in same time and all BE condensations together is the consciousness. If same action potential (spin wave)function meets memory; BE condensation occur. It not need to be exactly same time it is proportional. As like you recognize melody from different tone level.

You cannot experience 'time' - only the eternity of now. Check out Rupert Spira on consciousness.

Awareness is independent of time. We experience this ourselves in the experience of timelessness when we are absorbed in the Self. Awareness is also independent of space; it is not localized.

How can you be absolutely right in making a baseless speculation? That isn't physics; it's mysticism.

@@david203 because maturalist don't like out of physical phenomena

The quantum state of your brain might have collapsed beyond your brain, but your microtubules were able to catch it and write it down the same they do with any other conscious experience (memory). That's why you were able remember this conscious experience and can replay it in your mind... This is beautiful, this theory finally gives a language to understand how these things might work

@@Anna-mv9ew yes I agree. Most fascinating !

You have got that right consciousness is fundamental and predates quantum events, whereas mind is elemental and emerged with quantum events.

The theory is quite falsifiable, and they allready done some experiments with positive results

About same time it has proposed that spin wave happens along MT. 2018 magic angle of graphene was found. Unbound singlet has predicted long ago. Between two MT dimers, when bended, and with spin wave can born singlet.

You just need to stop the topic more - Anirban Bandyopadhyay already corroborated the microtubule claim of Penrose and Hameroff. It's just that the "internet algorithm spin" promoted a debunking soundbyte to that people can easily dismiss it as an assumption.

Microtubules can't have any connection to consciousness; I've explained this in a nearby comment.

@@joukosalminen1549 Spin waves are also not consciousness.

I give To you better theory: Memory is written at MT by dynein walking. They bend hinges of dimer. When spin wave turns spin different at dimer A tryptophane; the opposite spin of Dimer B makes singlet with it. this happens only if bendin and spin wave happens same time. Memory looks this: no singlet (,) singlet ; ,,,;,,,,;,,,,,;,,,,,,;,,,;

@@joukosalminen1549 By George, I think you've got it!

@@markstipulkoski1389 thanks! When same spin wave equation comes again born (Frölich) Bose Einstein condensation which is consiscousness

@@joukosalminen1549 But memory is not consciousness!

🙂

The question is where and how the interaction happens and thats why they are so interesting

Technical Jargon overload

Long comment that sounds like gibberish: lots of science buzzwords strung together. This is typical of the kind of pseudoscience that people will respect enough to send in their money. A scientifically ignorant person and their money are soon parted.

@@david203 Anyone who has to make their point that complicated is insecure about their intelligence

@@astralmaster1692 I feel very secure about my intelligence, and even more so about my education in science. I am a physics graduate and also a student of Advaita Vedanta. I try to understand both worlds: objective and subjective knowledge.

@@david203 Not you, the original commenter

protoconsciousness is nonlocal. If you study Penrose you'll note he emphasizes nonlocality from noncommutativity. Penrose calls this "Fundamental Time." He cites Connes who calls it "primitive time." And math professor Louis Kauffman emphasizing noncommutativity calls this nonlocality "primordial time." It's before linear causality of spacetime. You can also study the colleague of Penrose - Professor Basil J. Hiley for details.

Consciousness is fundamental. Spacetime is an illusion generated in Consciousness to support gravity and all the other science of mass, energy, space, time, and causality. Our consciousness is Consciousness as viewed by a human being, which essentially is nothing other than Consciousness.

​@@voidisyinyangvoidisyinyang885It turns out that after the death of the body, all people become united? does individuality disappear?

It doesn't match their beliefs

There is no direct connection between any carbon ring and a human experience. Psychedelics are not physics.

@@david203 I always thought there was a connection between the quantum world and psychedelic experience..or at least it feels very much like there is.

@@commiekillahjay2525 But how can you have a feeling for something that doesn't really exist? The world is already a "quantum world", so there is no special place separate from the world we know called a "quantum wolrd"! So what are you talking about?

What is your answer then?

Do you not think it the opposite where one is so trapped in the psyche that he cannot see beyond it?

@@Antidoton Nah, it's the Ego that leads us astray.

If it affects plants, then show me the quantum behavior of a plant. There is none. Yes, there is quantum behavior in photosynthesis, but those molecules are very tiny as compared to microtubules. Tiny (or good refrigeration) is a requirement for quantum behavior, since QM is so easily disrupted by our hot, noisy environment. That is one reason why its discovery was so late in the history of physics.

@@david203 You just admitted that there is quantum behaviour in plants. So what if it is at a very tiny scale. You know very well that Orch-OR has proposed a mechanism as to how quantum behaviour can function in the warm and wet environment of the brain. Did you think I didn't? You don't win arguments because someone else doesn't know something you do :P Orch-OR is in fact the theory of consciousness with the most evidence for it and has testable predictions, therefore making it scientific. Integrated Information Theory, the most popular - because it does not leave the door open for potential nonlocal consciousness speculation - does not match up in either case.

@@david203 Let's cut to the chase. Explain to me why this is the _only_ theory of consciousness that has made any testable predictions - and is therefore the only one that is scientific. And it has made 14 predictions, and verified six. Fourteen more predictions and six more verifications than IIT or any other theory. So what if the molecules involved in photosynthesis are very tiny. The prior assumption was that plants _could not_ support quantum activity, full stop. That assumption turned out to be wrong. And it furthermore does not mean that microtubules cannot support quantum effects.

@@squamish4244 Just so I can use my time efficiently, give me specific references for the 14 predictions and the six verifications. I don't believe it. There is a good reason this pseudoscience is related to "the hard problem of consciousness": there is no objective relationship between the feeling of being conscious and the functioning of the brain. Microtubules exist and serve a structural purpose in cells, but there is no reliable evidence that any quantum mechanical process or any consciousness is related to them. Hoffman is not a trained physicist or other scientist, and his conjectures are all simply ideas and beliefs. He is entitled to them by basic freedom of speech, but they are nonsense scientifically.

LOL we are God's ejaculation

Beautiful thought!🎄💖😌💭 I completely agree and applaud you for sharing this! Bless you!

Come again?

@@sirbarringtonwomblembe4098 I see what you did there

@@sirbarringtonwomblembe4098 🤣

There is another theory. "we 'think' therfore we are ". Thats the only truth we can definitely say applying all our knowledge,logic,imagination. "Think" a verb. "Thought" a noun Thought is consciousness thats the only thing thats we are certain about. What if....consciousness gives rise to matter? What if what we call space time is just a interface consciousness created to explore itself.

@@causalityismygod2983 In the Creator paradigm, Consciousness did give rise to matter - but it was God's consciousness and it was deliberate.

@@philosophyforum4668 yes....

If you listen, Dr Hameroff said that consciousness exists before the universe….. Even if he gives that some other description, it implies GOD. And how would a scientific explanation negate GOD ???????

​@@paultorbert6929 If that's what he said, I must have missed it. Do you remember the timing? Most of what I heard had to do with the brain. One of the unspoken projects of science is to close the gaps of what we don't understand, because some of them give rise to the idea of miracles or the supernatural, which gives rise to the idea of God. The existence of human consciousness is such an example. In my point of view, consciousness seems like it would be derived from the soul, another supernatural entity, but in their explanation, they want to derive it from the brain just like a good materialist would - because they don't believe in the supernatural or God.

Consciousness created the mind

There are a number of animals with larger brains than humans….

@@paultorbert6929 not the physical brain the intellect part is what is refered here don't het lost in words.

It’s way more testable than IIT or the other classical theories. It is scientific whether you think it deserves the name or not.

@@MikeWiest I have never heard of the abbreviation IIT. Scientific doesn't just mean that a theory is falsifiable. That is only one requirement. It should also have some observation or experimentation to indicate that it may be feasible. This speculation about microtubules (which are structural components of cells) being magically quantum mechanical is some obscure way is unscientific. Yes, there are scientists who advocate for unscientific theories. That is irresponsible, in my opinion. Have fun with speculation, but don't call it science.

IIT predicts matrix multiplications are concious 😂. And people still take it seriously

​@@franzclammer1931 The Wikipedia article is en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory . While there is nothing wrong with reasoning about information, there is still the problem that it always refers to something physical, such as the brain or universe, or a communications channel, or a mathematical system that models such entities. But the underlying existence of awareness, especially when viewed clearly by an individual who has "awakened" or reached "higher states" of consciousness, cannot be explained by any physical system or brain, so long as the reasoning is constrained by physical processes. And trying to reason in the reverse direction, from the experience of awareness back to physical systems, is also doomed to failure for the reasons David Chalmers and spiritual philosophers such as Swami Sarvapriyananda have made clear: awareness is actually primary, and is the underlying experience of itself, with all of space and matter emerging inside of it as an amusement or exercise of creativity. Only the primacy of awareness (expressed most clearly in the Vedic philosophy of Advaita Vedanta) explains reality in a truly satisfying way as not limited by mathematical logic or this Universe of space, time, energy, and matter. These limitations cannot be imagined away through quantum mechanics, which is just a way of explaining underlying physical processes through the mathematics of the total energy of a system. QM is satisfying because it explains low-energy experiments perfectly, and justifies the statistics used to measure them with low-energy particle probing (as with the double slit experiment). And QM reveals the quantized spectrum of low energies, as well as the sharing of state involved in quantum entanglement. But QM is not some sort of magic that can be used to infer an "observer effect" or need for human consciousness in any physics experiment. Such speculations are shown to be incorrect, even though in several cases they are championed by notable physicists. Speculation will always fail in the long run if it is incorrect and no real evidence appears for it. Physicists such as Roger Penrose should be ashamed of themselves for misleading the public by omitting the necessary qualifications for the speculative statements they make. People have a strong psychological need to believe, and any organized philosophy or theory is enough to satisfy belief. Speculations about a physical basis for awareness will always remain with us until actual experiments with AI make it clear that awareness is not an emergent property of physical systems, including simulated ones such as neural networks. An AI reporting that they "feel aware" can be analyzed (at least by another AI) as having reached this conclusion through its programming, for a specific motivation, not through actual transcendent experience.

@@david203 Pat Churchland is full of baloney

That was the argument, "the brain is too warm, wet and noisy" but we have good evidence to suggest that anesthesia works on microtubules like the one from the newest experiment on optics where they showed that tryptophan excitations in the microtubule were dampened by anesthesia, you might be refering to the older version of the model which had that problem, the enviromental shielding has more things involved in it like non polar pockets and actin jell

@@arandomguyontheinternet756 Remember, the claim is that QM has something to do with microtubules. I say, nonsense. The mechanism of anesthesia has never, AFAIK, been claimed to relate in any way to QM.

@@david203 Quantum effects don't spontaneously disappear at higher temperatures buddy.

@@parker9163 Buddy, they do. Superconductivity, superfluidity, and pure quantum states all disappear when heat is absorbed from the environment. "Decoherence can be viewed as the loss of information from a system into the environment (often modeled as a heat bath),"--en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence, buddy, buddy.

@@david203 No, quantum mechanics doesn't magically disappear at high temperatures. To get *our* quantum computers to work we do need a low temp environment. Bud

Even if true a pretty damn interesting one