Drugs and Buddhism Do Not Mix (Again) 

Thank you!

i'm actually considering trying ayahuasca in a ceremonial setting. I would love to hear a bit more about your experience? I know psychedelics are not ''the way'' but I also don't think they are ''bad''? :/

@@John-qk4mk I've heard it said, that your intuition will guide you to ayahuasca. In this frame of mind, your subconscious "knows" if you're ready for it or not. I know it's been three years, so you've likely made your decision already. But all in all, I would say to trust your internal knowing when it comes to spiritual matters instead of other people; including me. haha

Psychedelics certainly can Awaken some people. One can say there is no room for drugs in Buddhism but Buddhism doesn't hold a monopoly on enlightenment. If someone takes a different road to reach the same destination as you doesn't mean the road they took was the wrong road

@@l.ronhubbard5445 I sometimes reckon my use of LSD, THC or MDMA may have prepared me to accept that there are different ways of interpreting reality, so in that way they may have helped.

What does "your" comparative, judgemental mind know about awakening?

@@zebra9072 knowing is delusion, not knowing is confusion. I need more work observing myself falling into delusion. When sparked by this topic I will create a list of acceptable/unacceptable behavior to grade myself and "awakened drug user" friend against. Conveniently my behaviors are generally acceptable while the other's are not. This is importantly driven by a wish for others to live well. Essentially I would like for people to interpret "Everything is Connected" as instruction to improve their health and be nicer, yet these basics are usually not met. This is followed by an ego boost for me "achieving higher attainment" in a "better way." My strongly activated comparative mind knows much too much if you ask my slightly more sober judgemental mind 😊

One of my best friends is quite into drugs, and I find it quite difficult communicating with him. I got very tired of him not picking up my subtle cues of preference or disinterest, so clearly communicated my thoughts that I feel we've grown apart and that the drugs are helping. All he did was use Brad's "define drugs" Strawman and then focus in on how ignorant I was regarding the safe use of drugs.

Hi Dan check out Dogen’s Shobogenzo. He writes about cause and effect often.

@@trevorjones8737 He sounds 'preachy' too!

​@@trevorjones8737 You must understand that Dogen is that is my favourite author of *all* time. Apologies if my comment in someway triggered some feeling as if I was trying to compare and contrast and say something like "my team better" or something. There isn't even this team. This is just conditioning. There isn't even objects, selves.... oh wait, too much xD There are forest monks who started in Soto tradition & vice versa (e.g. Bhante Suddhaso) and still meet with teachers. The nearest forest monastery to me there are Zen & Dogen books in its small library of a couple of hundred books. I think the difference is just conditioning & culture. Admittedly, at first, the pali canon can seem preachy too "Then the Noble Enlightened one said thus" or "The blessed one said thus"... etc etc This is just our christian western tradition conditioning hang over. Now, about the issue I raised: I think the issue of drugs needs to be handled carefully. For instance the precept is "I take upon the training rule to not engage in substances and drink that befuddle the mind" It's not a moral thing. If you're not pursuing the great realization of old Shakyamuni, you needn't follow it. I would caution deeply about sounding moral about it. The point is that abstaining from drugs (and not indulging or being 'befuddled' by other things to the senses... ) is *cause and condition* for quite deep understandings, the like you will see in Dogen's writing :) One thing I feel the pali canon is excellent at is outlining these causes and conditions. It's not like there is a good or bad person! There are actions and results! One of the issues we must take carefully in the west is ensuring we don't simply have our projections & perceptions from our tradition carry over and colour the tradition we are reading about. On the issue of sin, morality, shame, guilt, etc It's EXTREMELY common for our western interpretation to read into this a sort of moralism, it even shows up in translations, but it's not there. There are actions, that are 'wholesome' (i.e. cause and condition for realizing the realization of Shakyamuni) and 'unwholesome' (not connected with cause and condition for that or perhaps actively interferring). My original comment was to emphasize this aspect to buddhist ethics & the path & we must be careful to talk not in a moralistic way, as people just switch off. yes drugs produce interesting mindstates that may make you question reality. yes drugs can give you a feeling of unity and oneness with all creation. yes drugs can make you feel in ways such that you have sorted out fundamental problems in your life and have renewed clarity. The problem is they are conditioned, and don't lead to the unconditioned. There's nothing against taking drugs if someone wants something else, buddhism is basically silent on that, the records we have are of talking to people who wish to understand 'highest perfect wisdom'. But, ancedotally, it doesn't take much to see alcohol may be quite harmful :)

​@@danzacjones Drugs can do all those good things? I'm sold!

If You aren't "perfect" neither is Nature... but there may be another possibility, too. ;) Can't compare any two snowflakes, but oh, 'we' can pretend-to, even if we don't realize we're doing it. Lol

he still drank himself to death, tho!

@@justahumanbeing.709 does it mean we shouldn't listen to what he had to say? You were kinda joking, I think, but I'm asking seriously

@@justahumanbeing.709 now that’s what I call one heck of an illustration of the definition of intellectual understanding!

This seems like a fairly uncontroversial take; drugs in some narrow sense can definitely be helpful for many things. Unfortunately just saying that seems like advocating for drugs, as you've noticed. And also many drug users may latch on to any perceived benefit of drugs as justification for their use. I wonder how we can express this nuance in a way that does not allow a wide spectrum of drug users (and abusers) to falsely justify their drug use. I personally feel more comfortable expressing an extreme anti-drug stance, yet I am not sure if that is the most appropriate approach

"I wonder how we can express this nuance in a way that does not allow a wide spectrum of drug users (and abusers) to falsely justify their drug use" Maybe my last comment and your answer to it was a good expression of that nuance ;)

@@Fakery Full disclosure I truly love my soft drugs and actively use at the moment though I plan to phase out we*d, phenibut, & caffeine. I've already gone cold turkey on everything else besides nicotine because I love snus and will never quit using it. All of that preamble simply to point out that I'm quite biased so grains of salt, grains of salt. I think drug use is symptomatic of the individual's mindset and if use of these substances is truly disruptive to the process of becoming enlightened that effect will be perceived eventually and the habits will naturally drop off. This happens all the time when heavy smokers begin meditating regularly and quit smoking without even 'trying' because they became more mindful of the immediate effects which are consequently rendered less attractive. You can imagine the difference between truly feeling the damage cocaine is doing to the body in real time and being too distracted by the fleeting euphoric effects to care or notice. Drugs are an issue which will resolve itself so I don't think it should be the main focus of discussions unless they're wanting to discuss it...obviously exceptions to this can be made if a person's drug use is especially destructive or alarming in the short-term.

One great "side effect" of psychedelics (not to be confused with harmful street drugs or harmful prescription medications) if they are the right tools for you (lots of maturity, open mindedness and self control is needed) is that if you pay attention they can be used to free yourself from the mental domination, false authority and unhealthy hero worship of RU-vid influencers and gurus like Brad Warner and Sam Harris who in truth only have their own individual limited perspectives that are all too human no matter how they try and present themselves as being more enlightened than us "common folk". Much love!

"personal development" is just nonsense for suckers

Yeah, real men should never soil their God-given worthlessness by making something useful with their lives. Earning money by being your own boss is totally un-Mushotoku, man.

Drugs don't lead to enlightenment FOR YOU

What does? And how do 'you' know? You guys might not realize that rigid conceptual beliefs and assumptions are more likely to be a hindrance to waking-up than drugs will ever be.

Star Trek and the Alien franchise are even worse! (smile)

@Sub Consciousness yet, they take part in the "meaningful construction of social reality" (-> Berger/Luckmann) in several ways (-> Decker/Eberl, 2005: "Star Waars and Philosophy. More Powerful Than You Can Possibly Imagine").

good luck on your journey into sobriety

Also, looking at images of naked young people doing sexy things. In my younger days, pornography was a much bigger hindrance to my practice and general health than anything I could voluntarily ingest. I'd be curious if your thinking on the subject has evolved since your days blogging for Suicide Girls.

I'm not sure what the exact answer is, but I do know that caffeine is stronger per gram than cocaine. It's just we have it in much smaller amounts so the effects are comparatively minimal. I imagine if you were to ask a monk they would say that caffeine is a hindrance. Probably because it can create an imbalance between effort and concentration.

If un-enlightened people cant see reality as it is...aren't they already escaping it???

sensible exercise/physical work is a very effective anti-depressant

I AM NOT A DOCTOR, but PLEASE, consult your doctor about ditching, changing or including anti-depressants. Do not leave it to comments section. Please.

Scott Langer Thank you for sharing your experience. I have been debating for some time about starting medication, I wanted to get the opinion of a few teachers first, and hoped someone had direct experience of them. I am planning talking with a therapist before asking for medications. The doctors here generally don’t know anything about mental health and just prescribe SSRIs without too much thought or preparation. Thank you again for your advice. With a deep bow, Simon.

@Scott Langer the number of people i have seen complaining of depression with poor diet, heavy pot use, complete lack of exercise and no attention to the circadian rhythm and sleep who then say "trust your doctor" and take your meds (often multiple with chronic side effects) is unbelievable

Andrew Levin I think, as has been already said, there is a differences between being in a low mood and actual depression. I eat a mostly vegetarian and almost vegan diet. Have a mild to moderately physical job, a regular zen practise and do not take drugs and drink alcohol in frequently. And yet, I still have regularly days where I feel I don’t want to live any more, sometimes for no reason at all. Even so, it can be a ‘chicken and egg’ scenario. I think usually depression leads to poor lifestyle.

It can, at least for a time. Depends how strong the pain is and how much you progressed in your practice. I even heal headaches with a session of Mahamudra/Dzogchen meditation. "Balancing our autonomous nervous system" in terms of Nishijima or "taking under control and purifying subtle body with its pranas and channels" in traditional terms.

Can you provide me a reference for the claim that the early Buddhists used mushrooms?

he's oiling his bike

The whole brain is full of chemistry, if you like it or not, that is the well evidenced state of the arts in the sciences. Complex molecules, neuronal networks etc. are basic, they form the preconditions for the possibility of human "sense-making". In former times, "drugs" and "medicine" were more or less used synonimously. Moreover, all "medicines" had a psychic, a physic, and a spiritual component, just take a short look into the history of medicine, respectively of medicinal knowledge and practices. What regards the special religio-dietal/hygienic rules in Buddhism and Daoism (the slightly differently framed/legitimated sphere of "taboos" here now set aside): The basic ratio seems to lie, rather, in the valuation of certain substances and brews (as well as "inner" and "outer" practices) as "intoxicants". These should be avoided, so one standard argument, because they tend to produce unfavourable (side-)effects in relation to the supposedly utmost "healthy medicine" of the Dharma or Way. But especially the ultra-transcendental versions of Buddhism seem to regard "everyone and everything" as "intoxicants" (in the widest sense). No wonder, they had, from the beginning, to cope with the - i.m.o. not totally unfounded - critique of being n i h i l i s t ic. Here the "doubt mass" has a big potential to grow - and with some good reasons; and it may be one of the underlying driving forces for "frontier minds", like Stephen Batchelor`s, to do some p s y c h o - n a u t i n g "outside the frame".

Wrong...you can't subtract your way to enlightenment.

@@Teller3448 So what is the gain there?

@@shunryusuzuki6285 Expansion...somewhat like the difference between a macro lens and a wide angle lens. The Buddhist path leads us away from small I to big I. From the point of view of a single tiny wave...to the depths of the deep blue sea.

That's a Daoist thingy...drunken fist...secret kung-fu of the south. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qGRHBzEP_oM.html

Ikkyu frequented brothels and like his drink.

@@seanhollandcanada Does that make him a drunk?

@@Teller3448 thanks. Only seeing these replies now. No notifications

Well, anything improves greatly with the presence of physical exercise in someone's life.

Yes, exercise helps meditation practice in multiple ways. Like the story of Bodhidharma training, the chan monks exercise because they were too physically weak. So the transmitter of chan Buddhism to China realized the benefit of exercise. Many masters are weak and emaciated from lack of nutrition and exercise.

@@shaunlindsey6467 Yes, the Shaolin diet probably included heaping helpings of beans and nuts. I cant see them performing their martial magic on a diet of pickled radishes.

Who is 'they'?

buddhism was created by and died with the rise and fall of the ashoka empire well, it hung about a bit, but the empire was its glory days it was a religion designed to keep the peace, just like islam actually, only in a rather different way

@@Teller3448 I'm sure I heard the Dalai Lama say that... but he turned to someone on side stage before he said it, so I guess that person is the 'they'

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-jgB6_jNm0-4.html this is relevant...

How about high crimes and misdemeanours...become it completely???

One doesn't know where the story ends, or what exactly catapults people into transcendence. Mary Magdilene, Raskolnikov?

Yes!

I know you said you're not gonna argue in the comments and I'm not looking for an argument. This is a legitimate criticism. I know I posed it as a joke, but it's a fair point. I really hope you reply to this

Good point. The step towards the "shortcut" is actually a step away from just being with our impatient and chaotic and addicted brain. The only real shortcut is to sit on our cushion. That's what shikantaza is supposed to be, that's what's so brilliant about it. The hardest part is sitting down, butt on cushion; then the zazzen starts to work. But, it's much more painful if our mind/body is clouded by news, pot, stress, other addictions. Which is why first thing in the morning is best, if only I could get myself to do that! This is why I love Brad's comments: we see ourselves right there.....

It's difficult to say if tobacco is an intoxicant. The few times I ever smoked a cigarette I got pretty high from it. But I've heard that goes away. In any case, tobacco is not good for you especially when used frequently. My Zen teacher in Japan was a smoker, but one day he decided it was bad for him, so he just stopped. Some people can do that. When I quit coffee, I had legitimate withdrawal symptoms that lasted for about 6 weeks. It was pretty painful. All I did was just resist the urge to drink coffee. Once the withdrawal symptoms subsided, I was fine. I think the trick is to watch it moment by moment. Just don't smoke now. Don't worry about the future or the past. Just in this specific moment, don't smoke.

If you turn Buddhism into a cult, that's an intoxicant too. Fortunately, good zen teachers vomit at the first sign of that sort of nonsense- because the whole point is the opposite of that. The world is in a drop of dew, and the dewdrop is in this stubborn moment and mind. Now if I can get myself just to shut up and sit down!

What if someone tells you...thou shall not jump off the Empire State Building (without a parachute)?

"In Tibetan Buddhism, they are documented using datura, cannabis, and other substances." Another example of hijacking the word Buddhism.

@@Teller3448 Example of a fact there is documented use in that tradition. If mentioning Buddhism is hijacking then yes.

PS Traditions don't wake-up, Buddh-IST's don't wake-up, the mind doesn't wake-up, only Individual Beings wake-up.

very true he drank himself to death, i never get why people think he's so great, I think Chogyam Trungpa drank himself to death too!!

@@justahumanbeing.709 One of the core teachings of Chogyam Trungpa was that people shouldn't rely on or be dependent on external props of any kind, yet he couldn't get through a day of his life without getting hammered on alcohol.

@@c.a.t.732 the story about him crashing a luxury sports car through a joke shop window while drunk is pretty crazy!! should always judge spiritual leaders by their lifestyle not their words I think.

You can disagree all you want- the precepts are there for a reason.

@@chrisplaysdrums09 yes, and that's exactly why i disagree, the reason is control.

Yes, ok, but "introduction" is different from path. Plz be careful with your precious mind, body, and friends...time is short, and as Suzuki Roshi says often, a good metric is to try to not end up feeling regrets. That's a warning light on our dashboard: hmmmm, I'm feeling regrets (or stress, or impatience...) must be a good moment to sit for 5 minutes; and to allow myself to sit for the full 40....and then afterwards, you know what to do. It really does work...!

He is a big fan of psychedelic drugs.