Dry Hopping Hazies and Why You're Doing it WRONG! Scott Janish The NEW IPA WRONG!!! I was WRONG!!! 

I found I wasn't getting the same or as good hop aromas from the 15c Dry Hops, I suspect due to no yeast activity and wort movement. It would probably of worked if I could of removed the yeast and roused with CO2, so I went back to dry hopping just before ferment is finished, that also helped getting rid of any oxygen that might of got in during the dry hop. So for me to drop to 15c was an extra step that didn't benefit my beer, but of course, if it helped you or anyone else that's bloody awesome! Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork I came to your channel again to specifically ask you how you are dry hopping theses days. I myself, have an all rounder plus a hop bong. With the development in the past year or so with minimal hop contact time, even down to just hours, I was curious which procedure would be most suitable for the equipment I have. No way of dropping yeast and no way of removing hops #1. Dry hop at 15C after fermentation then cold crash pretty much right away with probably 2-3 days contact time. Or, 2. Dry hop with a few gravity points left. This would give the hop contact time I'm guessing 3-5 days contact or more. Just curious of what you think of this? Thanks!

@@jasonwarren4023 The fast dry hopping thing to me is in effective, yep I've read things and I've questioned "experts" etc With all my experimenting it doesn't work well in a home brew set up. The "experts" like Scott Janish who dry hops fast in 2 days at 2c is only effective if you can get rid of all the yeast and after dry hopping recirculate the beer or rouse the hops easily several times a day with out causing oxidation, at home this very hard, even in my stainless conicals that are identical to commercial breweries.. except for size which makes a huge difference, I can't dump enough yeast without wasting several litres of beer, if that sort of wastage is ok with people go for it, commercial breweries can lose 10L of beer out of their 10,000L tank, losing 2L out of 20L is a different thing. Also setting up a recirc or even effective rousing system at home is problematic. While our systems are nearly the same commercial breweries usually have a lot more expensive equipment that can make this easier, bigger fermenters more space for extra ports etc. Without rousing or recircing short dry hop times at cold temps are ineffective. I've has no success with say dropping to 15c to dry hop, well no better results, worse if anything. Lots of people do it to stop hop creep but most of these people don't truly understand hop creep and how it works. Firstly if you keg and once you keg you throw your keg into a kegerator hop creep isn't going to be a problem. Its a problem for commercial breweries who store keg and bottles/cans warm for long periods of time. Enzymes from the hops can cause some more fermentation which can over carb of even explode cans or bottles. If you dry hop cold to stop hop creep you need to keep that beer cold through the rest of its life, otherwise those enzymes can still be in the beer and wake up and cause more fermentation, some breweries however will pass the beer through some form of pasteurisation UV or heat treated etc to kill anything like the trouble causing enzyme. Again this at home usually is not the answer, who pasteurises their beer at home? So cold dry hopping isn't the answer for hop creep at home. It's best and a ton easier to dry hop at ferment temps this way the enzyme becomes active in the ferment and does what is does their and it doesn't cause issue down the line, you can do what you want with the beer. For me I put those two things together and cold or lower temp dry hopping is more trouble than its worth, of course I encourage anyone to do their own experimenting, but between me and my brewing community none of us have had better results by dry hopping at colder temps. The other thing that bugs me is this repeated that 2 days is enough, I posted that study well over 10 years ago, it's not new information, though yes I agree its going around the last few years, people just wanting to speed things up.. The original study say yes, sometimes yep two days is enough, and yes sometimes aroma levels can start dropping at 4 days, but it was extremely minimal dropping by 4 days, a sparrows fart. Its much much more important to make sure the ferment is finished and you are happy with the aroma! it might be 4 days until its great, it might be more, there's no set times for these things. Grassiness yes can happen but its most grassiness comes whole hops or wet hops where you really need to dry hop for a week with those and all that leafy green matter adds a green matter taste especially wet hops. Some pelletised hops are more likely to cause some grassiness but that's one of those brewing things you learn not to use that certain hop in large amounts at that part of the brewing process, I might say something like galaxy people say they get grassiness from, its great as a dry hop, but be restrained and its better blended, most hops are. All rounder, ok you cant dump the yeast, and rousing is out of the question because you don't want to stir up the trub and yeast once its fallen out. Since you have a hop bong, you can wait until the ferment is finished to dry hop, dry hop times well that's until you're happy with it, I can say there's no brewery that I visit that goes yep that's two days, its done.. They will all test it first and will not move it on until its ready, they might dry hop more even. If breweries aren't doing that they are stupid. I still think dry hopping just before the end of ferment is more effective, there's small movement from the yeast still which helps distribute the hops and its hops throughout the beer, I'm talking just 1 or 2 gravity points before the end. The krausen has near gone by this stage, you're not venting off huge amounts of aroma, its barely bubbling. It's also good and common practice, if you aren't fermenting under pressure from the start, to apply head pressure into the vessel to try and keep those hop aromas and oils in the beer. In this case, don't rush it, you must be sure the ferment is finished, it should be since you've probably already raised the temp a few degrees you do that at 1.020-1.025, if it takes 4 days, 5 days, that's the most important. It's also totally fine to have the the dry hops in for much longer once you cold crash it, the grassiness thing happens more at warm temps, so there's no rush here, the guys at Mountain Culture for instance cold crash for 4 days for their really big hopped beers, to make sure all that hop matter falls out. If you use hops that are known for grassiness but you really want to use them say for a highly hopped galaxy beer you can try waiting till ferment is finished, dry hopping just give it a day or two at the warms temps, then cold crash and leave it there until you're happy. Woah that's a lot and I have no time to re-read and make sure I got everything right lol I think I went through most things? Home brewers are quick to jump on anything that makes things faster, its not always the best thing. They love grabbing something a brewery does but a ton of things that are easy or work in a brewery don't always translate easily at home. They love grabbing a Brusloppy experiment that they did on one beer and tested it with random people in a bar... That's not science and what works once, doesn't mean its best practice or will work with all beers. Take your time, experiment and find what works for you. Brewing trends are a dime a dozen, rarely do many last the test of time. Cheers mate! :)

@@HomeBrewNetwork I was hoping for some guidance. I wasn't expecting such a detailed and elaborate explanation. I can't thank you enough for this. Shout out here all the way from Newfoundland, Canada. Thanks again so much. Cheers!

Same mate, cheers!

Any time! Cheers Hayden!

Cheers mate!

Good stuff! I'll sub to you mate. cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Thanks, I appreciate it.

G'day Barry! Cheers mate!

Just thought I’d remind you that you brewed an IPA, not an “English” IPA 🥸

Thanks mate and bloody hell yes! If I had of forgot I would of been kicking myself hahaha Cheers!

Awesome, thank you! Cheers mate!

Crazy stuff, cheers Ben!

Thank you! Cheers!

Any time!

yeah interesting thats for sure mate. Cheers! I grabbed a nice beer for you yesterday at Blackmans, that bourbon barrel aged stout.

Glad you liked it! Cheers!

Hope you enjoy it!

Thanks for watching mate!

Glad you think so!

Yep I agree, I think the topic could be talked about for hours, the yeast has to be gotten rid off and as mentioned it can and will mute flavours if circulated with dry hops etc, Scott actually said they use biofine in the hazies, to get rid of the yeast, so just because yeast causes the haze doesnt mean the yeast has to stay in the beer, actually beneficial to get rid of it, I think a lot of smaller breweries can struggle with that without the right filtration or chemical methods and the beers get really muted and muddy sometimes. This video I concentrated on the haze part, he did go through flavours etc but it wasn't my slide show so I wanted to leave something for the ANHC videos when they come out.

Thats exactly how I've dry hopped for years, just before the end at the temp rise. Cheers!

You are absoulty right.

Yes it is, its about the time I always dry hopped a regular beer. Cheers!

Recirculation is too hard at home on most setups and and the chance of oxidation is high, its not impossible but I wouldnt try it with out a Peristatic Pump or similar, which I dont have at the moment. Hop teas I never liked years ago in extract brewing and so I'd never throw one at my hard earned all grain brews, just hot water draws out bitterness, can add oxygen and the end result is nothing like a traditional dry hop in my opinion. Let me know what you do! Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Thanks for the reply, much appreciated. I was actually considering "Cold Steeping" rather than hot water extraction. Similarly, I'm wrestling with ideas of using water, or drawing of some of the green beer from the fermenter and steeping in that before adding back to the fermenter. To be honest, I didn't give much thought to oxidation during transfers... perhaps I should. Thanks again.

@@TheHeraldOfChange in my opinion you should take great care, the slightest oxidation will strip your hop aromas faster than you can put them in. There are many myths that yeast can fix oxygen damage and they are myths, its just not true there is no fixing oxygen damage. Cheers!!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Thanks agai. Lots to think about. Cheers, and have a good one!

Thanks for the visit

Im still waiting for it to be released... Hopefully soon!

It did nearly make it to the video though I only had a photo lol Cheers!

Thats odd, we can't get the coopers yeast here, it's a Coopers brewery only yeast! Though we can culture it from bottles of course. Is that the Melbourne Ale yeast strain you're talking about? Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork White Labs WLP009 Australian Ale Yeast. Everything I have read online keeps pointing back to Coopers as being the parent strain. I know the internet can be full of shit sometimes but haven't seen anything that contradicts the claim either. Might be part of the licensing agreement too why it's only released once a year. Twice I have used it and it has been an amazing yeast so you would think Wyeast would keep it all year unless a certain Brewery's lawyers are saying no 🤷‍♂️

@@cogeek797 I've heard its similar, Coopers have never said it is though, said they'd never sell it, but hey, its just yeast! Could be the same!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Budweiser said the same thing but thanks to Coors and Charlie Papazian Cry Havoc is supposedly Anheiser Busch's proprietary strain

Ha! Very possibly lol

Just continue on, I havent found benefit from 15c dry hopping, but I haven't suffered hop creep in my system, but yes just do you were going to do, I'm sure it will be fine. Next time if you want to change things up, do it then, Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Will do, thanks! Only my second attempt at a NEIPA, not really my favourite style. My first attempt when I just chucked all the dry hop at the end of fermentation ended up clearer than my last pilsner. Tasted pretty good, people loved it, wasn't a hazy.

Was always said it was for haze, the later, 2nd, dry hop was to replace the aroma driven off due too the active fermentation. Cheers!

You could try yes, for sure

I'm still waiting for them all

They might accidently create a mutant yeast that takes over the world! ha! I hear what you're saying though, Cheers mate!

Totally agree with you. If you don't like wine flavour (ie. Nelson, Hallertau Blanc, etc.), you probably won't like super expressive GMO thiol yeasts.

@@tylerb6081 There was talk with Scott as to whether in heavy dry hopped and flavoured beers, how much is actually getting tasted in the beer, I guess if people are using NZ Phantasm as well, its hard to tell whats getting to the taste buds. Small steps all add up, but does the cost etc? Cheers!

@@tylerb6081 Thats another thing too we can't get, Phantasm, not illegal just NZ seemed to of skipped us and went straight to the US.. We'll remember this NZ!!!! :)

Dry hopping at low temps is shit for me, I wont do it, its never better unless you go through a lot of trouble, and its risky cheers!

Length of ferment is entirely up to the yeast, the figure of 2 weeks is a safety barrier for beginners, most ferments should be done in 7 days if sufficient yeast and conditions are met, my assumption from both these talks is this would be right at the end of ferment, the best time is just before the end, it'll solve a few things, it'll help circulate the hops and it'll get rid of hop creep. Leave it another few days to finish off 3 or 4 and then you should be right to go. Cheers

Cheers Jason! Mine was usually earlier than that, usually around day 6 and then kegged around day 10 Cheers!

I just thought it might be fresher dumping them in at the end.never tried dumping them in earlier. Like to see if there is much difference in the taste.

@@jasonburns1407 Mine are finished by then, just go by your ferment. Cheers!

There was some issues... But they may be released very soon... Cheers

Maybe I didn't explain this video clearly enough, I'm just showing a bit of the talk, it wasn't my talk or slides and the ANHC will hopefully eventually release the whole talk which will contain more information on which hops are best for last flavour etc I was just interested in the dry hop timing for the haze since it's the opposite of what most have been saying to do. Haze is part of the style I think, though I'm not sure if hazy is in the BJCP yet, it is listed in most other beer style guidelines. Hazy for me is about the haze, and for me it shouldn't even be called an IPA unless its going to be bitter, NEIPA... could lose the IPA on the end and I'd be much happier... It's all a bit confusing.. lol The other thing about haze to me is the beer shouldn't be muddy and it shouldn't be left over mixed in yeast. It's interesting for me to know how to get and keep the haze "properly" and not taking short cuts, or using the term hazy beer because people are dodgy brewers and can't get a beer clear lol

@@HomeBrewNetwork Fair enough. I agree there's a difference between opaque and hazy, so it's good to know how to achieve one without the other. Flavour and aroma for me are much bigger considerations, but I'll hold tight for more detail on that. Thanks again for the reporting and for the super detailed response!

Either day 1 seems an option or after the ferment, if that's possible in your set up without damaging the beer with oxygen. Cheers!

As long as it takes to finish, 3-6 daysish

usually day 10

I wormed you in the video :D

@@HomeBrewNetwork I got my 5 seconds of fame, hazzah! Was great to meet you, hopefully I can make it to the full conference next time :)

The alcohol helps, time scale per alcohol hmmm never really seen a study on that.. Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork thanks for the response. Cheers. Keep your videos coming🍻👍

Not yet as far as I know, hopefully soon!

Thats one I haven't heard! but interested! Cheers!

Yeh I've noticed if the proteins drop out of solution before fermentation starts the final beer eventually drops clear. But if I rehydrate yeast so fermentation starts fast, before the drop out, then the final haze is permanent. A large whirlpool addition is also needed so the wort is full of oils. Thats led me to believe perma-haze requires hop oils, proteins in solution and active yeast.

@@indiekiduk Polyphenols and Proteins

I've only had the chance to use Bluestone NEIPA once and it was very tasty, I bought another pack thats in the fridge now. I think its great. I havent had them side by side, but I have a london ale III fermenting now and will use the Bluestone one in the next few days so I'm probably better off answering in a few weeks. Right now Id say you should try the Bluestone, at least for the freshness. Never been able to get yeast like this Australia before! Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork thanks mate appreciate you getting back to me. Will give it a go, why not!

These new yeasts do things "better" apparently, whether our tastes buds are good enough to notice is another story. Cheers!

Verdant does have an active IRC7 gene but it's not super active like Cosmic Punch or Gazer. Think BRY97 does bio-transform but I've yet to see any studies related to it's performance related to the IRC7 gene. IMO - No one in their right mind is making a modern hazy NEIPA with BRY97. It's all about LA3.

@@tylerb6081 of course, didn't mean that...BRY is my go to for any clean crisp ale, Verdant is good for hazies, I had good results with Windsor too, but I never really do NEIPAs... just fruity (but bitter) hazies...

Totally up to you, I would watch the ferment myself, and get them just before it finishes. If its a fast ferment you'd want them in, the 7 day thing I think is fine if using a regular yeast and it takes that 7 days to ferment, but some yeasts are much faster and I think getting the hops in just before it finishes is a good idea, especially if not using a hop bong or the like. Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork thank you! Cheers!

You would think so, but in his talk, he didnt talk like it was that, so I thought it might be a typo or something, we'll see when the actual talk gets released. Cheers!

There is a ton more information but it's not my place to give it all out, I'm very happy ANHC let me use their slides for what I wanted. The rest can be seen when they release it. Cheers!

Aroma and haze are not related. Haze is from particles suspended in liquid. Aroma is from soluble and insoluble compounds. Coincidentally, suspended yeast, especially those covering hop material particles, can and do interfere with hop utilization.

@@tomekwiraszka7312 exactly, you don't want yeast in these beers, yeast selection helps form the haze but once it's there, you can then get rid of the yeast... Scott uses Biofine in his hazies to help get rid of the yeast.. Cheers!

You dont want hops sitting in a bottle or keg, keg can be ok if you're going to drink it fairly fast, but it can get messy and isnt ideal. Hops in a bottle will be nothing but trouble, nucleation points, when you open the bottle it'll foam out everywhere. Cheers and you dont want hops in your glass!

@@HomeBrewNetwork I mean, you can leak it to other keg after 2 days

These were talks on hazy beers, other things were discussed, but I'm leaving some of the talk/slides for the ANHC to release since they did me a favour of giving me the slides. Cheers!

That's the real question. I think we're going down the wrong path if brewers are so obsessed with haze and not about aroma and taste.

I get you, I asked the question umm I cant remember who, think it was Scott, but it was Omega yeasts that did the tests he talked about. I did find it weird that, two totally separate tests, unrelated what so ever and both didn't do it as far as I know. I think any ale yeast at the temps they used 20, and they would of had the freshest yeast possible, would be in that last point drop area, if not done lol. All my beers near ferment in the same time, 6-7 days. This is info from two great yeast companies, I'm not sure what else I could do, just sharing info! Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork Not having a crack at you mate, just not sure of the 'science', based around days and not points. Interesting stuff though.

I think does show that the day 1 , day 2 dry hops are at least less effective than a later dry hop, which is opposite to what's been said for years, that's the point I think. I agree the day count instead of gravity is weird, though I must mention also that they were done by a lab technicians, scientists I guess, not a brewer per se at least the Bluestone one was for sure. I don't know if the techs at Omega are brewers or just following orders, but really it doesn't matter. Cheers!

@@HomeBrewNetwork G'day mate .... did a brew yesterday - an Oatcream IIPA. I have decided that instead of a double dry hop, I'm going to chuck them all in just before the end (1.020 - 1.015) and see how that goes. Citra, Mosaic and El Dorado 100g of each. Fingers crossed.

Soon

Any update on that?

Very interesting, cheers!

And polyphenols and proteins and timing:)

New "truths" are falling too :) Considering early dry hopping is just a few years old. I totally get what you're saying though as long as things aren't just changed for convenience with no regard for small details that make a greater sum in the end. For example people saying that only a short boil is needed because of low DMS these days, but forgetting the other extra things you get from normal/longer boils like flavour etc. The one thing about most of the old stuff is it stood the test of time and works. A lot of the newer methods are a flash in the pan and forgotten in a year or two. Always exciting, always learning, thats why I love brewing. Cheers!

hahaha Cheers Finn!

@@HomeBrewNetwork lol😎👍

Well it’s started here, I’m in blackout lol no power…

If Klaus and his buddies come for my beer, they’re getting something different that we Americans have a lot of

hahaha Cheers!

one that ties my arms at the back? lol Cheers!

All.im doing is reporting the findings of two studies done by two very reputable yeast companies. Studies that shocked Mr Janish who's been studying hops for years. Cheers!