Duel Masters and Magic - A Comparison of Differences in their Rules Systems 

I don't think trying twice is "letting it die". It didn't have a market here.

​@@fernandobanda5734kaijudo was an awful attempt to reboot it.

@@fernandobanda5734it absolutely did the first time around, but WOTC actively allowed it to die out here. It was growing in popularity and would have continued to do so if they continued supporting it and implemented proper ban lists.

This is the narrative I tend to see around Duel Masters. AND IT SUCKS! It's just a different card game with the way it plays, and I'd love to have those rules here. But apparently, "It doesn't have a market" because it failed twice. Never because it never got the support it needed. That's infuriating.

@@hickknight I don't know the ins and outs of what the game had or didn't have in the West (other than novelty). I'm just saying it's silly to say they didn't try when they a) Released the exact same game for twelve sets and then b) Spent money not only bringing it back but redesigning it. Companies don't like to lose money either, you know? They didn't "let it die". I'm sure a lot of people would love Duel Masters here. I don't know if enough people would buy it, considering they didn't.

Yeah. It doesn't need to be number one in NA - I just wish we could play it without whipping out a translation sheet.

The Kaijudo reboot was even bigger crime.

@@tratanlightbreaker6029 It reminds me of when Dragon Quest (called Dragon Warrior at the time) first came to the west. They looked at the Akira Toriyama art and said "Nah, white folk won't like this" and replaced it with generic western fantasy art. Just because it may not seem as "Western friendly doesn't mean you should throw out a perfectly good quality product. It's the most popular TCG in Japan for a reason, and we're all well aware Japanese TCGs can sell very very well even over here. Can't believe that was Duel Master's second chance.

The card pool gap is so wide between discontinued english versin with current JP cards. It will be a really huge amount of cards must be produced to fill that gap, and I don't think any players will really buy all of those products, which can lead into another bankrupt, again. Even after the official expansion in my country, there's still very few people know Duel Masters is still continues, and it affects the sales of the products distributed here. I don't think language is the main problem, my place has also got official expansion for YGO OCG too and uses JP text cards. Our DM community is very helpful for helping and guiding any new members too, even when they have absolutely no knowledge of reading japanese. Just remember to know your cards and how they works, and opponent does the same, clear

Part two definitely goes into DM's interaction all being based on your own turn. One thing that does come up a few times in the part 2 script is how DM and MTG are often on opposite extremes, and a lot of modern games do something in between - like Traps in Dragoborn, or counter in Vanguard or One Piece.

@@tcgacademia Yeah, the counter mechanic in One Piece is actually my favorite solution to this problem. It adds much more complexity by making the player decide to either discard a creature in hand and power up a creature on the field or maybe lose the current one to play the creature in the hand during the next turn. It's so well thought out, it actually fits in really nicely with DMs philosophy.

I do still like Magic a lot (and still draft it regularly), and I think it's very easy to overstate the negatives of lands. I still generally prefer systems without land cards, though, and Duel Masters still has plenty of tools to nudge players to mono-colour, dual-colour, three-colour, etc.

it isn't a batter game, it's a different game, and sometimes that's enough

Creature lands have been in the game for ages now, so it's not like it's 100% recent, but yeah, with all the recent spell lands it definitely feels like they're a lot more comfortable nudging their approach closer to DM now.

The "life point" system in every game have different twist. In Magic/yugioh if you hit your opponent neither take bonus advantage. In Pokémon if you "hit your opponent" you take an advantage (a prize card) can make you stronger make the battle a rampage. In Duelmaster and in a similar manner in Battle Spirits if you damage the opponent they take an "advantage" and that make the duel more balanced in my opinion. Battle Spirits make this system really complex because your mana and your life are connected but the concept is strong. Today we have Digimon and the "mana system" are really interesting. If you play a big card you take the risk to give at your opponents a lot of point for play numerous card/a strong card to balance the game.

I think the least intuitive part of Magic's system is that it's additive (ie. a 4RR card costs 6, despite 6 being printed nowhere on the card). I've seen a few games use a similar system, but have some pips below the cost total to indicate how many colour source you need to cast it (so 6, with two red pips underneath acts like 4RR in MTG). Seems like a good compromise - Duel Masters can be a bit too simple in that way.

Oh yes, I have lost track of how many times I miscounted how much my cards cost because of the pips.

Definitely interesting to hear that perspective! I cam at Magic after playing Pokemon and Yugioh, and Magic honestly seemed fantastic in comparison. I could definitely understand Magic feeling like a down-grade after playing DM.

Yeah - I spell this out more clearly in part 2, but this is less about one being 'better', and more just reflecting on how a change in focus has such a big change on the rules mechanics. And yeah - keeping the "overflowing flavour basket" idea in my back pocket, but I think I have the rest of my videos for the year more or less planned out at this point. Always appreciate ideas, though! I never know when I'll come up against a block and need an idea to pull out for a video.

Yeah - unfortunately there's such a huge gap in card pool that I think it would be really difficult for DM to return to english, unless it was an online client like Master Duel.

I actually don't love end-of-turn draws in most games, since it's hard to plan what you're doing until you know what the opponent is doing. Like you can sequence X, Y, and Z on your next turn, but then the opponent attacks, or doesn't attack, or destroys one of your creatures, or plays another creature on their side, and you have to reevaluate your plan. So you're not gaining much in planning time since you don't know the conditions of your next turn, and you're also losing the big hit of excitement in drawing an unknown card to start your turn. It works in certain games, like Flesh and Blood, but I think start-of-turn draw is a better default.

Absolutely! I think it's easy to be overcritical of lands, and there's also a ton of other options to consider as well. Being critical is absolutely the right call when working on a resource system - it's not a matter of one just being 'the right way to do things.'

@@tcgacademia I used to be so anti-land, the mana screw/flood possibility sounds stupid. But looking at different angle, it definitely has some merits. But those mana screw/flood moment can still happen hahah

star wars unlim reminds me of Runeterra as well with the prio system.

@@MattIsAMage I will check that out

I've been meaning to check out SWU - it does look interesting. Although I am getting tired of everything being a franchise these days (I say as I preorder a vtuber tcg 😆 ).

@@tcgacademia so many IP games especially for very large IPs is a little exhausting. The old SWCCG player in me has a soft spot for Star Wars games. SWU feels like they got a lot right with the engine.

@@tcgacademia that there are no OG tcg themes anymore? yeah, its an easy jumping off point to get people interested, however that then leads to expectations and you live/die on the back of said IP. unless you use multiple, which risks losing players quicker... I feel a big rumble in tcgs will be coming soon though!

You still need to remember to put that die in your pocket 😆 But yeah, a single d20 is a pretty handy way of tracking life.

I remember the old days of having to spend 3 ener to hit level 4 - missed grows were definitely more common. Don't think I've missed it in Diva so far, but there's definitely been a few situations that have been close. And yeah, one of the most frustrating things about mana is that even with perfect ratios, you still get screwed way more regularly than in most other games' resource systems.

I honestly think that's a big part of the reason it failed in the west. The name sounds like a yugioh knock-off, so a lot of people (myself included) never gave it a chance.

@@tcgacademia Do still have my old Duel Master cards, though as usual, never did play well. Me and my younger brother, being the only ones with the cards in town, and neither really having much english comprehension skills, didn't help sementing the game. Though, as the case was with all other card games, the playground really just used them to flip coins, as nobody could read or understand them yet.

But i feel like other card games also lets their players constantly gets a choice where they have to prioritise among their game plans and as a result, have to let go of some plans to realize others. As an example, the pokemons ultra ball where you have to sacrifise two cards to tutor a "creature" from your deck. Or slay the spire where you often get into a crossroad of choosing a card to add to your deck thats either good for the coming fights in the near future or a really good card for the late game. With all this said i would like to make a case for the player experience of always evaluating and revaluating the needs to realize the game plan, even if some sacrifices have to me made.

from my experience playing dm it was always a pretty easy choice because no card in your deck was precious, early game you drop that double breaker into mana to play a weenie and late game you draw another power card and drop a weenie into mana to play it. even the niche tech cards you could usually tell within a turn if you would need them against your opponent's deck so they were always a reliable mana drop in most situations too

Also, that's why you have multiple copies of a card. Even if you use one for mana early on, you can still summon another copy of it later in the game.

I kind of get that - I still prefer systems that let you play your cards reliably, but sacrificing an opportunity to play your big, cool dragon because you need to use it as mana instead can be a feel bad - although like Dimitar mentions, the secret is to just run multiple copies.

Have to disagree with you. The land system absolutely influences deck building, but I wouldn't say for the better. Lands result in too many non games and are restrictive to those that don't want to dish out for better lands. Never seen anyone excited to slip a steam vents into their deck, opposed to a Bolzard Dragon. I think DM has less variance for the baseline of participating in the game. Both fantastic games though, played them both since release.

@@Baboon-nk4wq You're right, I was thinking about competitive Magic, for casual play probably it Just sucks.

I mean, you do have to figure out what's the best block so that you know if your attack is going to be advantageous for you. Your opponent technically decides what to block with, but they really don't "decide" all the time. There are often good attacks to be made, and so decisions are limited for both players, but there's plenty of boardstates where the attacking player decides much more than the defending player. In DM, it's the other way around. You almost always have perfect attacks because you know there's no interaction. If your opponent has tapped creatures and you're not winning that turn, you're probably eating every creature that you can. I wouldn't call that fun either. I guess the most fun is when creatures would trade and there's a real decision.

@@fernandobanda5734 Sure but whenever I play Magic I always miss being able to choose a target, I can't just attack a creature unless I have a specific card, it always feels like something is missing.

@@morzathoth919 Blocking in Magic would be the analogous action. If your opponent attacks and you have a bigger creature, you can eat it for free, which means your opponent probably won't attack. This is the same as in Duel Masters. But I understand that it doesn't "feel" the same.

Definitely agree, although there is a certain satisfaction turning your board sideways and leaving the math to the blocker 😆

I'm not sure it perfects the system, but OP is a really good game, and I've really been enjoying playing it.

While I definitely see your point, resources in most games tend to devolve into messy piles of cards sitting on top of each other, so I don't mind DM being less aesthetic there. And you still need to balance your colour ratios in a 'any card as a resource' system, much the same as a land-based system. Magic does have it's own appeal there, though, for sure.

​@@tcgacademia unless you're playing casual commander and everybody has 40 lands in play, I don't see the messiness in it. There are certainly horribly messy players, but that's considered bad practice.

@@admiralcasperr Back when I played (in a variety of formats), myself and other players would stack lands when casting spells and, depending on the decks in question, they might sit it all sorts of weird piles during the game. Definitely never bothered me, but it is a thing I could see bothering someone.

Typically you'd have your shields in the middle with creatures in front and mana behind, and I honestly find it quite aesthetically pleasing. In magic it usually turns into a bit of a mess when I have lands, creatures, artifacts, planeswalkers and/or enchantments in play and can't find a good way to organize them (ofc. not a huge problem in constructed/draft, mostly commander, but still)

As a mechanical system, I'd agree 100%. Although it's not focus of this video, I do think Magic's system works better than DM as a tool for roleplaying, though, so I do think there's a reason it's still doing well, beyond just sunk cost.

@@tcgacademia How do I make my TCG able to be roleplayable?

@@kagemushashien8394I know you weren't asking me but I feel like it comes from a few different things. 1. The player has a role in the "story" to actually play (plainswalker) 2. The gameplay matches the flow of the story (building up lands which plainswalkers draw their magic from and then using that magic) 3. The cards themselves are weaved into the world, they are not just random monsters but creatures that fit into the story. All of these come together to allow you to be a character within a story as you are playing the game. You are a plainswalker, using lands from the plane you're in to gain mana, using that mana to summon creatures that are part of that world or are from past plains you've visited. And you're fighting against an opponent doing the same.

@@bryce7344 How about my story: You are a Melder, you Meld together world's that I have created, characters, stories, universes, combine them into your deck and play your favorite characters, items, events, etc from the stories you like and love. The goal? Well it's just a friendly brawl with your opponent, it's like football, but you are the commander, and you don't have to stay in your respective post, you can join your friends on the frontline, ever fought together with your favorite character from the story I created from another game/show? Well now you can, and the possibilities are somewhat limitless. Create your own story within the brawl. There's more... Many formats and game modes you can choose from, from in universe lore formats, to newly designed ones ready to have their own story, or create your own, Home rules are official, or maybe meld formats together. And perhaps it will be the next installment, I made sure it's as versatile as the standard 52 card decks... There's more, the cards themselves are part of a bigger picture, each story has their own content to choose from, either they have their own official game, show, book, movies, etc, or a combination, their worlds are more than just cardboard merch, and it's all connected, all cannon, through the card game... So basically my own MCU with a Tron Legacy and Ready Player One twist, but with my own special sauce to make it original, some stories may be references, some inspired, and others, original...

@@bryce7344How about my story: The player's are a Melder, they Meld together world's that I have created, characters, stories, universes, combine them into your deck and play your favorite characters, items, events, etc from the stories you like and love. The goal? Well it's just a friendly match with your opponent, it's like football, but you are the commander, and you don't have to stay in your respective post, you can join your friends on the frontline, ever wanted to fight side by side together with your favorite character from the story from another medium but was created by me? Well now you can, and the possibilities are somewhat limitless. Create your own story within the confines of a simulation of what I have created. There's more... Many formats and game modes you can choose from, from in universe lore formats, to newly designed ones ready to have their own story, or create your own, Home rules are official, or maybe meld formats together. And perhaps it will be the next installment. There's even more, the cards themselves are part of a bigger picture, each story has their own content to choose from, either they have their own official game, show, book, movies, etc, or a combination, their worlds are more than just cardboard merch, and it's all connected, all cannon, through the card game. So basically my own MCU with a Tron Legacy and Ready Player One twist, but with my own special recipe to make it original, some stories may be references, some inspired, and others, original.

Can you elaborate on the no life/hp is bad?

I disagree, I think Most duel masters cards really pop in a special way

LOL😆 For real, though, I actually still like Magic a fair bit, and still play semi-regularly - I just also like other games as well and I think some games work better than MTG in certain area. Especially lands.

Magic is the oldest TCG, so obviously its base mechanics that it has barely changed are going to be outdated and its biggest weakness.