DungeonCraft #37: How to Handle Magic in D&D & Pathfinder 

I like this system, there are old wizards, there are bold wizards but there definitely aren't any old bold wizards.

In my mind, a good magic system has *TWO* of the following: 1) ease of use 2) low risk 3) power I feel like 5e has all 3, and I don't like that. I'd personally want to take away #2, low risk, and make magic as dangerous as you say.

Upvote for "like Yale."

"The wizard explodes and everyone takes maximun damage. No saving throw" Guys, I think he graduated from Yale.

Witch hunts? Brilliant. Killed for the runes on their flesh? Inspired!

Hey, im 23 and me and a few of my friends have just stared getting into dnd we spent a lot of money buying craft stuff to build maps n dingeons and paints and miniatures, we diwnloaded all the rules, the monster manual etc n as an aspiring dm ive watched tons of vids on youtube but they didnt help much, i watched like 6 of your vids and got so much more helpful info, thanks man!

I love it! this really keeps magic "in check". Something I added to keep mages from going just nuts with heir magic was this; I explained to them when they cast a spell, it is like throwing a pebble into a pond, it causes a ripple that "others" can feel. Try not to throw boulders, as you might just be ringing the dinner bell :).

“Can you copy my Magic Missile spell?! I rubbed an old man’s fungus-infected feet for a year to get that spell! So-how good are you at foot rubs?”

The best part about this ideaology is that if magic is dangerous, everything can be dangerous. Bandits may overrun your group. That burning hands might bail you out....or kill everyone in the area. It reminds me of older fantasy books and/or pulp fantasy which is great.

I like DCC's mercurial magic system, too. It gives each wizard a little peculiar flair, and reminds the player that magic isn't a medieval laser-gun. Not even the professionals fully understand it, and you risk more than missing when you alter the fabric of reality.

This makes me think about wizards on the Diskworld. Such dire consequences that they spend most of their time trying not to use magic.

I personally love the System Dungeon Crawl Classics provides: Magic is nothing banal, it is powerful and mysterious and most importan of all, dangerous ..

Your games have a lot of customization. I’d like to see it all together in action in a recorded game. Do you have one or would you be willing to make one?

without going off the rails. NPCs can have access to spells like couterspell or dispell magic. also if a player hacked the spell, so can an NPC. Also if the player hits a minion (1 hp) with a spell that does 75 dmg, at least make the gory explosion look cool. I had a barbarian player in 3.5 rage out on a single 5 hp goblin once, the look on his face when i told him he just decorated a nearby tree with goblin guts, making it appear to be a horrific christmas tree, was priceless.

Thanks Professor!! This was marvelous. We're meeting this weekend and I'm excited to implement a more chaotic magic system and watch how the party handles it. I'll let you know if Soren survives the night.

Great episode Professor. I've been binge watching the episodes regarding how your rules differ from RAW for 5E, and I'm really enjoying the content. Thanks for all your effort.

Haha, you're so inspiring. I haven't played DnD in 20+ years, but you make me want to play again. It would be so different as a mature adult.

Can't believe I'm only now discovering this channel! It's rare to see such a stream-lined magic system that ISN'T Vancian magic with spell slots. This is so simple but so evocative.

"Clever Player, your spell combo is sooooo powerful that it rips a hole in the fabric of reality... RUUUUUUUUN!!! And never cast that spell combo again!"

Mister, you have just changed the way I play D&D. Thank you!

Onr thing that really worked well for me- I used the variant rule where the players roll all dice. It’s fantastic! The player rolls the dice and adds his spell attack bonus to see if it exceeds 10+ the ST of the monsters. Players love it- they roll defense rolls when they’re attacked, etc.

I like the 5e rules, they are quite well balanced. It's easy to confront a spellcaster with limits or light a paladin on fire if they're getting cocky. And I like to give players complete freedom in chosing their spells within the rules. It's their character to decide about and it's my job to confront them with adequate challenges.

Dude, that evil smile he made in his first example of rolling to cast hit me like a semi, I couldn't stop laughing 😆

I note that the DM writing you for advice didn't actually say what magic the Warlock/Sorcerer had access to that was allegedly ruining the game. It's most likely Hex+Eldritch Blast+Quickened Spell. It's a pretty devastating combo. In particular, as Eldritch Blast scales with level by adding more blasts rather than increasing power, the chance to crit is also increased. It's also a combo that is impossible to apply your "solution" to without utterly breaking that character. Hex+Eldritch Blast is the bread-and-butter of the Warlock class and Quickened Spell is a basic Sorcerer metamagic effect.

I use a "scroll" system - instead of memorizing spells, my magic users have to spend time scribing a magic scroll that takes resources and requires a successful roll. Higher level spells take longer and more magic ink (the defacto spellcasting limitation), so when they go into a dungeon, they have a limited number of spell uses. When they have a rest, they have to decide which spells to scribe, and give up rest to do so. My player has gotten the idea that he wants an enchanted spellbook from which he could cast spells more freely, and I've made it the goal of a quest line for the entire party - once he gets it I don't really mind if he's overpowered, at that point he'll be level 15 or so and as far as Im concerned will be hitting his power ceiling, and one more hero will be ready for the final quest!

Once again you’ve laid down some incredibly practical rule hacks to DND to make everything easier & more enjoyable for all. Can’t wait to implement these in my next game!

I never want to be a wizard in your game. ((I REALLY WANT TO BE A WIZARD IN YOUR GAME!!!)

Love your channel, especially this episode. The clever ways to self limit magic only make it more exciting in my head. I tend to shy away from magical types of characters because it's a lot to remember and the strange mechanics. Tied in with group initiative, this is a gold mine. Thanks again for top-notch, quality content!

Makes sense rather than all the beancounting with slots.

I’ve been writing my own magic system, your spell effectiveness system is almost exactly how I have it set up with spells backfiring and everything. I love it!

Great stuff about magic. i am so going to use these ideas with my kids when we play!

For the roll to cast system, I personally set the challenge ratings according to spell level. Low level spells are a 10 to cast, mid level spells a 15, and high level spells a 20. This system is both realistic (higher level spells should be more difficult to cast) and decreases the amount of high level spells your characters cast. Sure, you can cast that magic missile as 6th level, but it's more likely to work if you cast it with less power.

This video is probably my favorite on this channel. It provides such a simple way to make magic mysterious and dangerous which is how I like it. However, my favorite part is probably the sheer glee in the prof's expression when describing the backfires and failures. So much fun to be had here.

I like the idea of spell slots granting a guaranteed success of the cast and once they're out you then have to roll to see if that spell succeeds or just fizzles out, possibly getting more difficult with each successful cast. The player would then still need to roll to see if the spell hit in the case of say fireball. I think combining that with the critical failure rules you have would be great.

I like this idea. Good job Professor! I like keeping things simple. The way you explain the variability of a spell cast is great.

Roll for the spell to fire - yes; cast any spell you know - yes; as many times as you want - well, I prefer the idea of resource management and having a finite number of 'magic energy' points (go to zero and you down dead). All great ways to play! It sounds rather like 7.5 Tunnels & Trolls :)

I love that you also waive the spellcast limits, that is one of my biggest peeves.

I see spell slots similar to mana in video games. You have a pool of stamina that you can pull from to bend the universe to your will, you run out of slots... that means you're out of mana. Which means that DMs could use that as incentives to make mana potions that restore spent spell slots. I believe when I run Pathfinder 2e, there's going to be a few mechanics from DCC that I will implement as well because it really fits the kind of game I want to run.

Advanced D&D Players Handbook had 'Parts of a Spell'. -Components -Verbal -Symbols -Time to Cast When I actually noted these things in my youth in the 1E Players Handbook, I thought it was Way Cool! It was a way to temper down the High Magic that would inevitably evolve and become out of control. Our DM wasn't real keen on it though. In the olde AD&D system, time was (and could) be broken down to the second. The general consensus was of course to leave things in the melee round cycle. Some spells were instant (like magic missile) while others, could take a while to prepare and cast... especially if one had to use spell components or retrieve, unroll and read from a scroll, or both. The thing is, it limited a spell caster to more "realism" while adding more balance that equaled the class more so to the other classes. A mage with components to a favorite spell like, 'Fireball', required bat guano as it component. How many doses of that component does he/ she have? How is it packaged? Where on the person or the luggage is it? Suddenly, the spell isn't as instantaneous as it was. Plus, adding some "Grim Dark" aspects such as, how fresh or old the guano is if it was bought off a random vendor. Is it in the appropriate dose size or, the mage had to buy it on the fly. Is it so aged/ dried out that it has a strong chance to fizzle or only be half as potent. Magic weapons are another thing altogether. I've played way to many campaigns where it seemed everyone had a big collection of magic weapons or vorpal swords. AD&D Players handbook had a whole layout on what it took to make an enchanted weapon. It was a great effort with a lot of moving parts that was no guarantee of success. Where it would become cool for an adventure though, is being tasked or hired to gather the materials needed to make a magical weapon or object. Player Character Adventure Time! In my experiences, DM's were not so inclined to make magic user's work for a living. Now, we have this "Contagion" of everyone wanting to be a kewl loot holding magic user. The tactical nuke on two legs. The Gandalf wannabes. Fluffy bunny high magic is fun for those that want that. I do like the more "Grim Dark" however, along with having the opportunity for magic to have it's place, more equal in effort, to what most other classes have to endure. I also think there were these things as robes laden with many pockets, belts with many pouches and the like, was to encourage magic users to collect ingredients and to have containers of stuff for spell components or, octopus ink, or blood ink from some rare creature for scroll making or transcribing into their traveling spell book and of course, that special quill in it's own case. Besides, I think having a mage that has to work and think for living, leads to much more role playing that leads to some intense dungeon crawling and outdoor adventures! Just a thought.

I take it back. THIS is now my favorite video you've made. Brilliant common sense ideas.

Your main motivation seems to be increasing fear in your players. (this is not a criticism. IIIIII... Like it!)

You are blowing my mind. I love it. I've been trying to play a game and spell slots and the like just keep getting in the way.

You’re most mind expanding video for me. The rest was thins I had gradually found over the years put into clear words, but this would’ve taken me a few more years to arrive at, if ever!!

this series is amazing. I will be using this for sure.

I'd gladly cast a wish spell to get into one of your games, this sounds enormously fun. Definitely going to steel some of these for my players.

Great advice! I love all dungeon craft videos!

I enjoy so much your videos! Please show how you handle Healing and Recovery.

I’m so happy I found this channel!

Or you could add a spellcaster to the enemy and give them "Counterspell" that will help too.

This is absolutely one of my favorite DRs, Professor Dungeon Master. I come back to listen again and refresh my GM approach and to enjoy a good laugh "...my skull ran out of RAM..." classic! I don't know how many times I've said "just don't roll a 1" at the table even when I'm not GM-ing! Thanks so much for the attitude and the fun.

Hhahaahaha "no saving throw cause they weren't expecting it!" ,brutal!

AWESOME TIPS, PROFESSOR!!! This is how a wizard can be too good at trying a new spell like to destroy all eyebrows of the battle.

I keep coming back to this

Love the idea for rolling a 1 with Mirror Image.

One of your best. Can really use this one. Thanks!

The rules regarding spell availability and rolling for success is fantastic. 2nd had spell failure rolls too, but still had spell slots. You make very valid points regarding this. Also making spells more available on the player level, but harder to acquire is a fantastic rule as well. I am going to use these.

Much of what you describe in the use and dangers of magic is in Symbaroum. They also have a great version of magic missile: Storm Arrow that uses an actual projectile fired with mind magic! I definitely like the rolling for spell success/failure but I would limit this as magicmen and witcharlots become more practiced. As with your cleric, mages should be able to attempt, that is attempt, higher level spells, if they gain access to them. (Again great advice that shows up in Baldur's Gate, Skyrim, etc--notice how successful they were at making finding magic a big part of the quest).

Thr sheer glee when he's describing their plans 😆

I have been using die roll to make the spell work and spell fumbles for 30 years in my game, works well. Also, you can levitiate (As in your example) as long as you don't roll a one and fumble. BUT, if you are casting agaisnt another spell effect, area or magic user or magical monster, you have to make the spell work AND overcome their spell resisitance. Again, very good system, works very well, helps keeps wizard power in check.

I came up with something similar to this. It is cool to see principally similar ideas in alot of these vids. One of the reasons I subscribed. Its moments like this I don't feel so alone.

I look at Spell Slots like this, the reason the Wizard can only fire off so many spells a day (outside of it being a game mechanic for character balance) is that it takes tremendous effort to channel magical energies (mentally, physically or both depending on the spell) which is why a Wizard has a cap on his magical ability which grows as he gains sufficient skill and experience.

I absolutely love these ideas!!! Thank you!

Thanks for the info here. I'm trying to create a much simplified version that an 8 year old will like. This and your other videos are very helpful. Has made me change my approach. Thanks.

OK seriously why am I being recommend this now? I've been watching for years but this is your best advice. I wish I had heard this a long time ago.

Your Master Wizard idea reminds me of how some powerful spells are learned in an old RPG called Exile 3 (later remade as Avernum 3), where when you accomplish certain big deeds you're sent to a tower of magic to learn them from two renowned wizards.

This was hilarous and informative. thanks!

I love hearing this advice. the way magic is being handled in my homebrew 5th edition setting at the moment is that Magic is rare but not unheard of. Powerful priests of the 9 divines have divine magic, the court wizard is a fairly powerful divination specialist so most of the spells in his repertoire are divination magic. He has others, of course, but they are ones that his apprentice has to earn the ability to study. His apprentice actually happens to be my fiance's character and she determined that her spellbook was actually a bunch of small rune stones that she keeps in a bag so when she studies her spells she draws her power from those rune stones. It's a really fun idea that we've been playing with ever since we used the Xanathar's Guide for 5th edition determine some of the unique qualities of her character.

And following the Mage the Ascension line of thought, you could exchange corruption points for ressonance, as MtA. If a mage uses to much Enchantment some collateral effects happens like Charm Person functions as Love Potion and the person becomes forever obsessed with the wizard, or Illusion making the wizard somewhat schizophrenic. Corruption points connotes the idea that magic is bad or evil when in mosts cases it is neutral. Corruptions points could be used to Necromancy or Conjuration school, which refrains the user to acess this kind of magic.

You've just described Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying magic system. It has apprenticeship, limited access to spells, failure charts, corruption and an inquisition, but a magic user technically could just keep casting fireball.

I totally love the idea of rolling to see if a spell works or not so I implemented it in my game - but I still allowed my players their normal spell slots, and made your system of them rolling a d20 to see if it works come into play after they've expended all their spell slots. Up to a point there wasn't anything bad that happened, until our druid, after several rounds of combat and all her spell slots expended, wanted to heal another party member. That dreaded 1 popped up! I made her roll the amount of healing she would have done, and lowered the party member she was trying to heal's HP by that amount permanently. As added fluff, I had painful thorns grow out of the person's arms (the druid's race is a dryad). It was a very memorable moment, so thanks again for this awesome mechanic idea Prof!

That is probably the slickest way I have ever seen to make wizards less complicated and more interesting at the same time.

I like these attitudes towards magic in dungeon crawl classics the magic gets weird! I like your concept for rolling on the spell just like a fighters sword. it always felt arbitrary that some things always hit while others need an attack roll. some add your ability modifier while some don't. it made magic something I've kept till the end to learn because its such a foreign system from the rest of the game. very good video!

i love this approach!

First fix for this Soren Sorcerer/Wizard hybrid, is to understand that allowing Multi-classing into your campaign will inevitably make the players "somewhat" more powerful. If you are not ready as a DM to counterbalance this additional power, then just don't allow multi-classing in D&D. The rules for creating a multi-classed character are offered as an "Optional" rule that the DM chooses to include or not.

Great video. A lot of great ideas.

So many great ideas in this video.

I'm quite keen to try this advice out. I've had issues with D&D's magic system since I started playing, and this might just change that.

I'll definitely be using these rules, even when I'm a player in a campaign where the DM hasn't watched your videos if I can. Side note, can't get enough of PDM's gremlin smile when saying "go ahead, don't roll a 1!"

You sir. I like your take on very nearly everything.

Omg, I am so inspired. I love all of this.

So enjoyable. I was smilng and jotting notes all the way through.

"like Yale" I had just taken a drink... oh God, that killed me.

OH MY. I have been trying to figure a way to homebrew world either more low magic or more... magical. This was just the ticket. Thanks, professor!

I have started using the DDC magic system with just a d20 roll and custom dnd spell success tables. I also allow the player to spend a hit die to add 5 to the roll but they have to roll the hit die and take the result as damage. We call it spell burn. Love your magic system ideas and it fits very well into my grim dark setting.

"Magic is opposite of physics": I love this idea, thank you professor!!!

Hi everybody. Just want to say how much I am enjoying prof dungeon masters channel. I am trying to learn how to play RPG so I can do it with my kids. It seems fun but the learning curve is steep but channels like this help a lot. Thank you!!!!!

why roll the d20 twice, once to succeed and once to determine how successful? A single roll should serve as both, a la Dungeonworld.

I love you, professor. Thank you for every video.

💥😎💥 like this video within the first 5 seconds, with that very awesome opening Magic display! No mistaking what the video is about after that... Cantrips can be most convincing to the uninitiated... 🕯🔮🗿

Awesome. Love your examples.

Wizard: I cast Fire Ball, GM: roll a d20 GM: ouch the spell back fires, roll again to see how badly it back fires GM: grats you just became a living IED >_< lol

How did your wizard player play for 24 years with this dangerous magic?

This is absolutely brilliant! I can’t to try it out in a low fantasy game

Dear professor, I like these concepts and am keen to adapt them to a mini campaign to try them out. I have a few questions: 1.) Why use 2 rolls? Would it not be faster to assign a difficulty to see if the spell is cast and then adjudicate the degree of success or failure based on how well they roll? 2.) Would this system of assigning difficulty make sense according to you? Casting a spell of a level that would normally be allowed according to the 5e spell table (eg a level one spell at level 1 ) be assigned dc 10. Also the wizard can add their prof bonus and ability bonus to the roll. This would be the base. Casting a spell a level above would shift the DC up by 5. Getting damaged would shift the DC up by the hp taken. (Or 1/2). 3.) Lastly how do you handle concentration spells.? Yours sincerely, Dr DM

While not exactly the same this is the way I remember doing things decades ago it works and it helps to keep things somewhat in check. I don't believe that D&D was ever meant to be a perfectly codified set of rules but a basis from which to build. It is nice to see some one using a lot of the same mechanics that my friends and family used for many many years of wonderfully exciting gaming. As I said not exactly the same as what I remember when I was young but very informative and helpful.

Man I wish I had found your channel sooner. Your stuff is gold! You need to thank Brandish Gilhelm form Runehammer who sent a ton of his listeners to your channel! I'm glad he did!

I wouldn't nurf all magic just to account for one power gamer, I let my players know on session zero that their power level determines the difficulty of encounters, in the case of the SorLock character I'd just have it so that enemy groups respond to his powers, if the player annihilates one of the enemy group with one spell then that player becomes their primary target, if the enemy cant realistically deal with him then they withdraw and regroup, possibly joining other enemy groups they might not normally associate with in order to deal with that player. I might also make an evil twin of the player, using the same combo of powers and have him join enemy groups, I'd give the evil clone a backer that could ressurect him if he gets ganked. The way I see it it isn't the DMs job to keep the players in check, we control literally everything else.

Brilliance. Also, "... like Yale." LMAO

Taking that wild magic to the next level. Love it

I have a party that is a Divine Soul Sorc, a Shadow Sorc, a Bard and a Fighter Cleric of Correlon. The Divine Soul is probably the most powerful, caster wise out of all of them. Ultimately it's not THAT hard to take him down. I just have to be more tactical on planning my encounters. Things get fun when they start running into things with resistances, lots of hitpoints are are very fast that can cover the distance fast.