Shimano shifting especially the front derailleur is better, and its lighter than SRAM force. SRAM force does give the user a choice of gearing ratios with their 12spd while Shimano didn't do much with their gearing except for adding one extra gear in the middle spread for 'racing' purposes. Also SRAM Force is 2 less cable / 1 battery less to install inside the frame.
@@marcuswong1797 I'd probably just go with sram because it's easier and more user friendly with the app and such. But I do think shimano still might have the upper hand in reliability. Must not forget they are a conservative company that built it's reputation on strict engineering, putting function and reliability over style. I think sram is still a pretty decent company and I use a sram group myself, and it's been working fine for the last 5 years. Also I've been pleased at the repairability of the parts. I've saved money on buying brand new derailleurs after unlucky accidents for only 15 or 20$ on ebay (and i'm not talking about the hanger). You should be mech-savvy to a certain degree to do this, though. Oh, If you have the chance swap the sram chainset and bottom bracket for something else. The axles have pretty bad tolerances in terms of dimensions, my chainset has this problem and most do. It wears the BB much faster.
As an etap force user myself, I’d say that Shimano has the advantage purely from a shifting experience. But, force has a package is cleaner with the true wireless experience that one would envision when discussing wireless group sets. So take your pick. I wish I had the dough to splash to go di2 ultegra, but my force is serving me well so I can’t justify spending what limited budget I have for the swap. Both systems have their benefits. But either way they will still serve you more than adequately
I agree that from a practical point of view, consumers don't really need Dura Ace. However, as long as consumers are paying 10-12k for new bikes, there is naturally a market for it. You can't really tell someone that is spending 12k in a bike that they could save 10% and downgrade to Ultegra, with only a 400g penalty. The 1.5k difference is significant for the majority of consumers, but completely irrelevant for some.
My 11 speed Ultegra 8050/8070 is amazing. Almost 9k mikes with it and no problems whatsoever. Only dura-ace component on my bike is the brake rotors. The black finish on the fin goes well with the color of my bike.
I think every buyer of Dura Ace knows that it's not better when it comes to performance. Buying Dura Ace simply means to treat oneself to the best there is. It means you know that you are using what is currently possible in terms of bike tech. Personally I am convinced that Ultegra is an incredible product line as its performance is impeccable. However once I have a good paying job I want to buy a full Dura Ace bike -once in my life :) Right now it would probably be a Cervelo S5 full Dura Ace. Does it make sense? Proably not. But that's okay :)
I’ve been using Ultegra Di2 for a couple of years. First thing I did was buy the Bluetooth interface, which took maybe a minute to install. I customized the auto shifting points to my liking and haven’t touched the front shifter since. I do agree that sometimes it does shift chainrings at inopportune times, but overall I prefer the automatic shifts. Cheers!
Can you map it so it's the same as SRAM? (Tap both shifters to switch the front ring, and then left for an easier gear, right for a harder one) I have a SRAM on my dream bike and shimano (non Di2) on my training bike. I would love to try Di2, but I prefer the SRAM logic with only 2 shifters.
@@Bendersnatchling I believe full synchro works that way on Di2 - the rear shifting turns into the synchro shifting (1 easier and 1 harder) and the front ring shifters still shift the front if you want to explicitly.
I have mine set up so the right shifter does all the work - easier and harder - using the front and rear buttons. Then the left shifter can actuate the front derailleur if I want it to, which I rarely do. I also use the right and left hood buttons to scroll through the screens on my Garmin. I don’t know if an option to switch the front with simultaneous right-left clicks. The Shimano shifter just isn’t made that way.
I can't wait to get this groupset on my next Cannondale. I will say; I was disappointed to learn there is not an RX version of the rear mech. I've come to love the clutched actuation on my current Ultegra Di2 RX rear mech and I hope Shimano releases an 8100 version of the RX before I make my buy :-) As always; great video!
Just like with most mid range to high range groupsets, most of the weight savings is in the crank. You can save yourself some money buy the mid range group set and if you really want the big weight savings just buy the high end crankset.
Could not agree more. Its my 2nd DI2 ultregra groupset. Had the 10-speed running well for 8 years with new parts every few years. I am now on the 11-speed R850 that i picked up on a bike recently. It was on a Ex display bike from Condor Cycles. Few marks on the frame, but the bike runs amazing. I am delighted with the 11-speed set! I will oped for the upgrade on the charging port inside the handlebars at my next service! Looking forward to the 12 speed at some point!
May I ask what you did for the change?! I'm currently trying to upgrade 10speed mech to an 11spd I know I need to change more then just derailleurs but need better direction!
@@matthewroy5818 My groupset came compleate on a new bike. But if you are running 10 speed, everything apart from the brakes will need to be changed. The system for 11 speed di2 is different from the 10-speed. STI's, chainset, wiring loom/charger, battery as its under the saddle on 11 speed, front mech, rear Derailleurs, cassette, chain, chainsetset. The charge point on mine is located under the stem. You can obtain a fitting to put it inside the handlebars. A full 105 12-speed new will not be that much more. 11-speed is harder to find, so it might be used. Good luck mate!
Some very good comments... I do think that the trickle down has worked majorly to the advantage of the enthusiast rider in this case... The very marginal weight savings of Dura-Ace it's just not justifiable for most cyclists, for the pros where budget is no option, sure!
I love the semi-shift feature on my Dura-Ace. It allows me to not think about the right gearing when going from the big ring to the small. When I change at the base of a climb it just puts me in the right gear and I can just continue pedaling seamlessly without adjustment. I did not like the auto-shift however, it seemed like it didn't utilize all the gears like you could with manual-shift. The semi-shift seemed to be the perfect blend of both. Now if SRAM had this feature I think it may be a winning combo in my book.
Warren asked about syncro shift. I have syncro shift set up on my RH shifter, simply up and down like on a 1by system, and the software sorts out the front mech. That leaves both LH levers to be programmed to manage the garmin. So no problems changing pages or starting the lap timer with cold wet gloves. Works superbly.
Does it? I would argue that noone really needs 22-24 sequential gears to go from 0-50 km/h, and therefore every shift ends up being 3 shifts to reach a meaningful gear.
@@JuvoII You won't have 22 gears. You'll have 11-12 gears. The shifter decides wich front plate and rear ring uses to get the correct gear (big plate with 5 smaller rings, small plate with 5 bigger rings, the middle ring with one or both plates so you have 11 or 12 gears depending).
@@JuvoII The system is fully programmable, so I can chose when the front changes, and it takes typically 14 gears to go from low to high, just like a mechanical system.
It’s not pointless It’s actually a high end premium line that is for people who want the absolute best group set available. I mean do you know how many people say wow look at that dura ace group set when I ride by . Absolutely no one ! But I still ride dura ace on all my bikes Life is too short to settle for anything but the absolute best .
Haven't used any electric groupset as I still prefer the simplicity of mechanical groupsets. Currently using a Ultegra 6600 on my custom road bike and it shifts crisply. Simply magnificent
Dura-Ace doesn't make much sense if you are not a pro, but if you want to look like one then it is cool. I also don't like the shiny exterior, especially if you are like myself. going for a matte-black frame I'm no pro, so I'm super stoked with Ultegra
I’ve always been sram on road bikes, but when the new bikes comes next year I think I’ll be swapping to shimano. More to do with having to replace the power meter when the chainrings wear out.
Never saw much use for Dura Ace, I don't race. I have ridden Ultegra mechanical for many years and a couple of years ago started riding DI 2 Ultegra. The DI 2 version is flawless to ride, a real game changer but I've always been frustrated by the user interface. So glad they've finally addressed this. I am planning on upgrading one of my bikes to the new R8100 when I have the money.
I actually love Full synchro!! You can also setup your Garmin to beep when the next gear change will change the front derailleur. I wish Wahoo had that.. as I prefer their head units but I have both.
I'm getting this on Tuesday on my TCR Advanced Disc 2021. I can't wait for the moment when I go pick up the bike from my friends shop. This is gonna be a blast.
I’ve got this setup on my Tarmac SL7 and love it. I do think the C50 Ultegra wheels suffer a bit with freehub engagement speed, especially when coming over from my Rovals with DT 36t freehub. So much so that I’m investigating possible upgrades using a DA 9170 body. Otherwise a great groupset overall and looks awesome on the burgundy/grey Spesh frame.
My quibble on this groupset is the lack of a small cassette (11-25 - 11 to 19 by 1 + 21, 23, 25). Riding in a flat corner of the country (north of Montreal, Quebec), I'm currently riding an 8000 groupset with a 52/36 cranset plus a 12-25 cassette. The lower I go is 36-21 ... I won't switch to 8100 until they provide a small cassette.
Great all round and honest review. Brake lever feel of previous gen was one of my biggest gripes compared to SRAM which had a more lighter and feathery feel to them. Glad that this new design seems to address this issue
Here in our country, a complete shimano 105 groupset rim brake version costs like an ultegra groupset rim brake version in terms of msrp. Prices here are doubled.
I totally agree, the price difference is excessive, but let’s be honest, if you’re buying a dogma f, s-works, etc. you want the whole lot and probably money is no issue. If you’re going full superbike then you will want the da… for any sane person then the ultegra is perfect
Honestly I have Shimano Ultegra DI2 from factory on my 2016 Trek Bicycle, I find this works fine, and have stated since I would most never go Dura Ace again. Don't need any fancy shift patterns.
I been riding ULTEGRA for over a decade and continue to do so. It’s pretty much my groupset of choice. DA is good as well but Im not really a weight weenie. My CAAD12 ULTEGRA is 7 kilos which is good enough.
The caliper rubbing has not been completely eliminated... When I get out of the saddle and sprint the rotor can rub, I'm using the new thru axle Dura Ace wheels too. The calipers are easier to adjust, whereas the previous calipers were frustrating to adjust bordering on taking back to local bike shop for assistance.
In any case both are good groupsets, if you find a deal on one of them I will go for that one. Also preferences. - DOT vs mineral oil for hydraulics (I do my maintenance myself and I prefer the non-corrosive nature of mineral oil) - Aesthetics, totaly personal. - Ergonomics, I was quite surprised how comfortable are the new shimano groupsets, but also ergonomics is something personal, style of riding... - Maintenance cost/repairs, as of today Force is more available than shimano 12 speed stuff. - Shimano has the option to run off one battery (I'm not a fan of having coins cells on the shifters), again totally personal. For some people having to move the bike near a power outlet is a mess, hint, use a power brick :) But again I didn't have major problems with AXS (maybe having to change the coin cell mid riding, the lid is quite hard to open some times) ....
100% want to see it against Force . Im currently turning my nose up at 8100 because of other friends not liking the origional Di2 and issues with battery. the simplicity of eTap and the interchangeable batteries is a real winner for me over Di2 even if it is a bit older now. Im hoding out this year for maybe an update to the Force ?
Interested to know what they didn't like. Not much has changed with the new di2. Friends of mine like Di2 except in winter, where they can't find the button!
It feels like the general thinking is that Di2 shifts better, and there is probably some cognitive bias in favour of Shimano because a lot of the pros use Durace. Etap has (or perhaps had for the last couple of years, before the latest Shimano versions) a friendlier OS and, historically, easier-to-charge batteries. I think of it a bit like iPhone / Android: the latter does a lot of things better, while the former is often more user-friendly and all your products talk to each other without any issues. I have eTap on both bikes for that reason and the easy battery charges and changes, plus the fact it’s fully wireless; but I totally get that Di2 is probably more technically proficient out there on the road.
I have the ultegra 12 speed, it's smooth and feels good and all but as far as performance goes it will not make you go quicker than something 'outdated' like ultegra 6800
I use full syncro shift. Occasionally it does want to shift the front when I don't want it to but the head unit beeps when it's going to shift the front next shift and then I'll either accept the shift or just pedal harder in the gear I'm in to crest the hill
Upgraded to Ultegra 8100 last month, and love it! It is a thing of beauty the shifting and braking are night and day compared to my old R7000 which wasn’t exactly bad. I love the full syncro shift, like having paddles on a car.
I find the gap when it shifts between the big and small ring probably a gear too short...plus there's just a split second or two of frantic spinning until the rear mech changes. Once I've figured out how to adjust the gearing I'll sort that out 😊
As always a top notch review. I just made the jump to electronic shifting with SRAM Force Etap AXS. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on a comparison with Ultegra Di2.
I have both Ultegra and 105 DI2s. Let me tell you, I can't tell the difference. I had a loaner Trek Madone on Scram Rival for a little over a week. It's equally good but I will give a slight edge on the Scram because of the ease of recharging the battery.
It’s been a while since the ‘second’ group set was the better option for both SRAM and Shimano - the #1,200 is just up front costs - I’ve found that dura ace / red consumable components also wear out faster, increasing further the expense of the group set over its lifetime.
As someone who has been riding Dura Ace since launch, I can say that it’s just jewelry. If you stripped the branding and colors off the two, I couldn’t tell you the difference. Same goes with the previous generation. However I will say the latest generation is notably better shifting, which is impressive as before it was already class leading in my experience.
Shimano has been clear that Dura Ace is purely race spec and if you arent a racer then ultegra is what you need. They couldnt be more clear about this.
@@mattk8810 Yeah, I buy Dura Ace because I like it and I can. Not because I in any way need it. I don’t have other hobbies, and I’m a bike nerd, so it’s my big splurge.
Been riding Dura Ace since 1995 and have raced quite a bit. Now riding 9000 mechanical (9100 cranks). Can't go wrong and I simply like the fact my bike is half a kilo lighter and looks much better than relatively rough looking Ultegra. The price difference between mechanical and electronic is bigger than between Ultegra and Dura Ace mechanical. Plus Campag is even more expensive for pure bling. $A2,200 or so on a reliable and lightweight mechanical group set is worth it if you ride a lot and plan on competition.
@@jasonstevenson110 The weight difference from Ultegra to Dura Ace now I think is less than 400 grams. If you have a chance to try one of the latest group sets give it a shot, the performance improvement is massive. It probably won’t make you any faster, but you’ll certainly feel faster.
We are talking about electronic shifting..."need" has got nothing to do with this decision for me. I would like to know if I can chuck on a GRX rear mech, or front crank for those weekend rides in the mountains. I would love to see a sub-compact crank 30-46, or 32-48 Ultegra. >20% grades are hard on this old guy. :)
I never bought Dura-Ace, a Porsche or a Rolex, but today I can easily buy all of them and pretty much anything else I want in the world - maybe there's a link between the two facts? ;-)
Gear changes are butter smooth, and as done as soon as you think about changing Braking is good. I like the ease to view how much is left of the brake pads Wheels..I didnt get them Why did I spend so much on Ultegra ? The joy of smooth shifting, every time, day after dày, year after year. No cable issues.
Please compare Shimano's di2 to Sram AXS eTap... I'd love to hear your thoughts. Greets, a Sram fanboy (12-speed, completely wireless, 1x-options, electronic shifting in the third tier groupset... and all that yeeeaaars before Shimano)
Force user here, and I will also chime in to add support to what the other two folks here have mentioned. Still, force shifts well enough, so what limited budget I have will be focused towards other changes than changing group sets lol
But that would need dual sponsorship (aka paid-for promotion) from Shimano and SRAM... and neither would want to pay advertising revenues to BR for a comparison with their rival!
On Chinese Market,a full set of ultera8170 is nearly $3000,but a set of used DA9710 in very good condition is the same price or a little cheaper,I choose 9170.
When I couldn’t afford a top end bike they were making rim braked sub 7kg bikes. Now I can afford one they want to tell me disc braked 8kg bikes are better… and now you’re telling me Dura Ace is a waste of money. Stuff you! I want a sub 7 rim braked bike with mechanical shifting. Now who still makes them?
Strictly speaking it isn't. The planetary in the hub introduced some drag. But instead of asking here look at the Classified site. They're fairly open about it. Might be similar to the increased drag of a 10t cog? However the upside seems to be fast, bulletproof 'front' shifting.
@@freakyPhred thanks. They say more efficient than a 1x (due to less cross chaining) and as efficient as a 2x. They say 99% efficient. Not sure I believe it. Want to see if anyone independent has tested. I would imagine if it’s more than 2% less efficient, people wouldn’t want it despite the better shifting.
I have shimano 105 10 speed set up and the shifting is flawless. Why would I need anything else? I don't like it when batteries become required for anything when they didn't before.
I loved this video. I am looking to buy a new road bike and I will not look at a bike that doesn't have this Ultegra groupset on it. Coming from a Sram Red 10sp (which I love) after trying this groupset (and newest GRX Di2) I am looking forward to having it on my next one. Quick questions! Q1: is the $700 upgrade of the Dura Ace wheels (C50) worth the investment? Q2: how do this compare to the Zipp 303S or Firecrest and Enve 45? One of these sets is going on the new bike. Thanks!
On my 3 bikes I have a mix of 105 / Ultegra / GRX / Dura Ace components and to me 105 is the sweet spot but these comments about 400G being marginal makes me sigh. Any bike with\without half a kilo will be noticeable slower\quicker to react. Stop hating and ride more 😒
Just got a new bike with the new shimano ultegra and the first thing I’ve noticed is the app is nowhere near as good as the one from sram. Build quality and shifts are a pinch better.
I'll stick to old fashion wire gear change as a friend of mine had a nightmare with di2.and will never use again and do we really need electric gearing as you have to remember to charge the battery and the price puts me off
I've tried full synchro, but agree that it's weird and annoying. Ending up in the small ring when you don't want to is something you really don't want.
No one talks about the need to attach a cable to the shifters to upgrade firmware...a little frustrating when you can upgrade the other components wirelessly. Otherwise very happy with the DA Groupset.
I ordered a new bike October last year from ribble (SL Disk) and the thing that swung me in to the Shimano camp was the fact the new Ultigra Di2 was £500 cheaper than force! Having said that, I've had Herbert for a month now and just love it! Gear changes are silky smooth and fast! Much faster and responsive than my mates old Ultigra that I've used for the last year before my new bike arrived.
It depends. Yello Biafra would probably rant about the marketing and the ridiculous price. The current dead kennedys would probably have a song in the ad.
I like the full synchro shifting (early days though). It's like a virtual 1x, but with the range of a 2x. Edit: having tried it a few rides, I've set it to act as a guard against severe cross-chaining, but not for routine shifting. Upshifts from the small ring to the big, with corresponding cog shifts, are too slow -- prefer to make them manually.
As long as it’s available, more than a few bike riding customers will always pay more to buy the top range group set because it says “Dura Ace” on it. They may not need it, it may be more expensive and it may only offer marginal advantages, but there will always be a market for top of the line.
lol, same. A few decades ago, Shimano 600 and Dura Ace were light years apart, but now they're really close. Back then Campy was much more costly than Shimano too. Interestingly, the new DA 12 electronic is higher cost than DA 11, putting it almost identically priced as SR 12 electronic. That shocked me a bit.
Ultegra is the best bang for your buck. For the regular advanced riders will be seen with Ultegra. Only the pros or climbers that really need that weight saving will go dura.
