E103 - Pat Murphy Ejected by Brennan Miller for Brian O'Nora Out of the Base Path Call on Joey Ortiz 

That was my thought too, he wouldn't have been close enough for their to be a genuine tag attempt. Too many guys these days run on the grass, I'm really hoping MLB tightens up base running rules.

He makes how many millions per year and literally isn't smart enough to know that he should be running to the right of the foul line, especially when he hits a ball trickling up the first base line. His a$$ would be on the bench for a couple of days if I was the manager.

@@mrthingy9072 to be fair tho that is the quickest way for a right handed batter to get to first base.

@@douglassepic9030 I don’t think the Brewers, or anyone for that matter would bench a potential all star 3rd baseman, just returning from injury for a couple of days for that. That’s also the fastest way to the base for a right handed hitter.

@@benjaminwirth1208 but in this case the "quickest" way doesn't matter because the first baseman is out of position and you don't have to beat him or the ball to the bag, you only have to avoid the tag. And if there *was* going to be a throw to first, the runner was partly on the grass so he could have been called out for RLI also.

I agree. And the level of misunderstanding by the game commentators is also incredible.

RLI, baseline - she's just SO over saying the same thing to announcers who don't see her videos - just bask in the sigh's glory like I do, lol.

Welcome to umpiring.

@@teebob21 my partner had a train wreck safe call at first base Sunday in a throw from the shortstop. The coach was sure that we are ignorant buffoons because we didn’t call running lane violation. He said,” Why are the lines ( running lane) on the field? It’s impossible to have running lane violations on throws that don’t originate from the home plate area. An area umpire Jim Evans calls the imaginary box. The coach was ejected and my partner was fired. The travel ball business ruthless. The owners do not care about umpires. When you eject a coach you are ejecting a customer.

@@rayray4192 I would be careful about inventing a hard and fast exclusion that isn't supported by rule. Nowhere do the rules require that the throw comes from the home plate area in order for RLI to occur.

@@teebob21 you are correct, but it’s never ever taught at any umpire school that RLI can happen in a throw from a shortstop. You can have interference by a batter - runner but not RLI. The rule was created for throws coming from the plate area. Jim Evans hands out a paper display of the “ imaginary box.” It’s a rectangle in front of home plate.

@@rayray4192 There's more to this story. Something's off, and it's not the owners. Your partner did something to deserve getting fired.

I think it would be like she described. You measure from the same part of the body. In this case, the right foot moved more than 3 feet. But that could be a problem when a runner slides head first and swings his legs out and just grabs the base with his hands. Is that out of the base line because his feet move the length of his body??

Its all crap. It’s literally a judgment call and he wasnt going to overturn himself and his crew chief isnt going to either, all the angles and distances are just empty words with nothing behind them. When exactly is “the tag attempt made”? The core of his vertical body stayed entirely within the runners lane which is believed to be is 3 feet 3 inches. But as i always say, baseball officiating is somewhat unique in that it only cares about whether the call process is “correct” without any intent to ever get the call “right”. This was a horrible call, despite Linds being “correct”.

@@johncaccamo "The core of his vertical body stayed entirely within". It plainly did not. When he started his evasion the "core" of him was on the grass, not just his right and left feet. This was the correct call, and there's nothing horrible about a correct call.

0:52 I don't know about that

His “core” or center of mass goes from the edge of the grass at the tag attempt to barely the middle of the running lane-based on his outstretched right foot touching squarely on the line. He might have gone more than 3 feet--but only by a couple inches at most.

and the funny thing is when I saw it was that if he called the runner safe, a manager wouldve gotten tossed & Lindsay still wouldve done the play lol

Because that's what allows the call to be seen as right in this instance. It's pretty silly to actually argue that you're attempting a tag while your arm is straight down and not anywhere near close to being able to make the tag

And you still have to take 2-3 steps before you're close enought to actually make contact with the runner.

Like it or not, a tag is initiated when a fielder with the ball begins moving towards a runner. Distance is irrelevant.

@@DarkLordofDnD that's clearly not true. Otherwise a guy in a run down would never escape because a fielder can just immediately move the hand towards him before he starts running towards the runner even when they are 30' away.

@@IkLms11 You're allowed to retreat or remain within the 3 ft to try and get around person with the ball. But that is in fact the interpretation of the rule.

Per MLB interpretations, the tag attempt does begin once the fielder who is reasonably close enough to make a play has the ball and is moving to make a tag. Other rulesets clarify further, by restricting the runner to his path when "a tag attempt is imminent", though the fielder must also have the ball under those codes, too.

@@teebob21horrible rule

Let's see if the rules answer these questions "A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with his body while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with his hand or glove holding the ball (not including hanging laces alone), while holding the ball securely and firmly in his hand or glove. It is not a tag, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his touching a base or touching a runner, the fielder drops the ball. In establishing the validity of the tag, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball. If the fielder has made a tag and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the tag, the tag shall be adjudged to have been made. For purposes of this definition any jewelry being worn by a player (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) shall not constitute a part of the player’s body." so that only tells us what a tag is but not what a tag attempt is so sadly because of which, not covered in the rules so that falls to the Umpires to rule on that unless I can find it somewhere else. Ah yes Baseball Rules Academy covered this regarding the tag attempt on Cleveland's Jose Ramirez, here's what they posted regarding tag attempts "As of 2017, the fielder no longer has to extend ball in glove or ball in hand toward the runner to create the restricted basepath. Under current rules, the tag attempt begins made the moment the fielder with control of the ball in his hand or glove, makes a motion toward the runner. At that point the runner’s basepath is an “imaginary” straight line to the base he is going to, and he cannot exceed 3-feet to either side of the line. Therefore, the runner has 6-feet of real estate he can use. This is always a judgment call, and it is not reviewable." so this tells me that the second a fielder gets the ball and makes a motion towards the runner then that's considered a tag attempt even if the runner is technically out of reach. Now back to the other part of your question, this copied and pasted from the MLB rules "Any runner is out when: (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely" so it just says a straight line so whatever area of the base would be the closest to as straight of a line as possible without going over 3 feet to avoid a tag.

why not?

Now imagine working a high school or college game and hearing all the moms and dads invent rules from the bleachers.

Here's a proposal: the umpires should get on the field mic and explain calls such as this. There's absolutely no reason not to

Exactly. This argument is flawed for starting tag attempt before there is an actual attempt.

The MLB interpretation is the tag attempt begins when the fielder is in possession of the ball, is reasonably close enough to attempt a play, and begins to move toward the runner.

@@teebob21 which they clearly weren't at yet at that point.

@@IkLms11 They weren't close enough to attempt a play? Why did the runner have to juke the tag by so much, then, when it missed by only inches? I'm curious to understand your thought process on how the pitcher was not attempting a tag from the instant he possessed the ball.

@@teebob21 you can't attempt a tag on someone you can't reach. You have to first run to a spot where you can actually reach them. You clearly aren't making a tag attempt until it's actually possible to do so.

To me, if the runner is reacting to the actions of the fielder with the ball, in any way that makes a tag play by that fielder more difficult, that is evading a tag attempt. The fielder could be preparing to run toward the runner. If the tag attempt doesn't start then, then when does it start? If there were no tag attempt until the fielder were within a step and a reach of the runner, then the runner could lead the fielder on a goose chase all over the outfield.

When a tag attempt is initiated, the runner has to run in a straight line to the bag, yeah? So if the skunk moves, they must be in a direct line to a bag.

yup the original runner's lane was 3 feet in length either way so it's the best way to measure for out of basepath calls

But when the right foot came down, he already was past the pitchers tag. Isnt it 3 ft from when the tag attempt is made?

​@@mptr1783 it should be sadly this isn't what it has been since as of 2017, it's stupid and I think it's ridiculous but the rules that MLB now tells Umpires regarding tag attempts, this isn't covered within the actual posted rules on the MLB site but what they've been telling them since then is a tag attempt just requires possession of the ball and a motion towards the runner.

you should have a few just in case, even retired Umpires hired by a network would be good.

Luckily for ONora, there actually was a tape measure: the runner's lane. If you go from the grass out to the runner's lane mark, you have gone farther than 3 feet. Maybe by only an inch, but baseball is a game of inches. If we're going to insist that umpires are perfect down to the tenths of an inch on the plate, we have to accept judgment calls that are that close on the bases, too.

@@teebob21 I normally agree with you teebob but slow this play down. When the tag attempt was made, the runner was in the middle of the dirt. His right foot came down after he passed the pitchers tag. IMO, this shouldve been a no call

@@mptr1783 My friend, we will have to agree to disagree on when the tag attempt starts. MLB interprets it as beginning when the fielder has the ball and is moving toward the runner. If we accept that interpretation, I can't see this as anything except what was called on the field. I'm open to other explanations but please come armed with some other rule interpretation.

@@mptr1783 but his direct line to the base starts at the moment the fielder starts attempting a tag, so if the runner deviates more than 3 feet from the line from time the pitcher has the ball, it's immaterial when the first swipe is.

But it should start at the chalk as the attempt wasn't started until he does his hop

Yep. Good pregame reminder.

It doesn't even have to be what everyone saw. Just talking through a play and having someone listening helps. In this case, 3B umpire, who had no real view, could be there just making sure the conversation is held, and if there's any really unusual rule situation involved, make sure the crew's interpretation is consistent. It makes it clear it's "our" call, not "his/her" or "my" call.

@@haroldbrooks5930 Yes! This is also key. If there’s a rule to be cited or interpreted in the crew’s final ruling someone on the crew may have something to add to the proper rule citation/interpretation even if they did not have any information to add from their position on the field. Thank you for pointing this out.

I agree

I was wondering that too. Seemed like it should be 2 visits from the dugout, meaning the pitcher should've had to be removed. But, didn't matter in the end, as the Rox ended up winning the game like a pitch later, but I'm also curious about that.

I don’t see why they can’t have two coaches. They can pull the entire infield in for the visit and it doesn’t count as a separate visit for each player in the huddle. Every other sport lets you call timeout and every coach participates in the timeout. Let the pitching coach talk to the pitcher while the manager sets the defense. Makes a lot of sense to me.

@stephenbeck7222 because it's a visit from the dugout. 2 visits from the dugout and you have to go to the pen

@@kinkaid7477 it’s charged as one singular timeout. Given that they conclude at the same time. Which they did here. I think the broadcast got that wrong (shocker), believe Bud Black was also more interested in shift limitations with a 5 man infield which the Brewers put on. Hope that helps.

@@benjaminwirth1208 Bud Black should know the shift rule by now. Original infielders have to stay on their original side of 2nd base but outfielders can set up wherever they want including as extra infielders. It’s also not something to really talk to the ump about as the offensive coach before the at bat, because they should wait until after the first strike during the at bat (or out at the end), then appeal the shift and get a free ball called.

I don't think this is a VAR situation where we analyze if a toe is beyond the 2nd to last defender. If you move your body three feet away from your bee line path, you are in violation

The runners lane is 3 feet. The dirt to the left of the foul line is usually between 1.5 and 2 feet.

Wrong, but thanks for playing. The right call is the good call. You know nothing about how umpires think.

@@rayray4192 ray, youre being a little harsh. I the umpire called nothing, you wouldve had a problem with that? And isnt it the center mass of the body that has to be more than 3 ft from a tag attempt? I only saw a right foot land that may have been more than 3 feet but it also was after he passed the pitchers glove

@@mptr1783 you are right. I was ignorant and needed correct information

Wasting time and he got run for it. You can’t stand there and argue about it forever. Miller said it’s over, move on, and Murphy didn’t leave.

Exactly, every part of body has to be past 3 feet or it's under 3 feet.

I always use the center mass of the body, which I was taught. To say the right foot might have been more than 3 ft is useless. I don't think he was attempting to tag his right foot, was he?

totally agree

The short answer is that the tag attempt begins at that time because that's what the official rules interpretation says it is.

@teebob21 it's a poor interpretation. I'm 10-15 feet away. I'm not attempting a tag.

@@chesterthompson6835 If the fielder isn't attempting to make a play or make a tag, what is he doing?

@teebob21 when does the actual tag attempt start? I'm not saying he isn't moving into position to make a tag, but just because he has the ball doesn't mean he's actually making a tag. In this case, he has to take 2 more steps to even get close enough that if he extends he arms he might be able to make contact. There was one last week on this channel that the 3rd baseman or short stop collected the ball, but his momentum took him another step forward and then he still had to turn and by that time the runner was already by him.

@@chesterthompson6835 A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. Per MLB interpretation since 2017, the tag attempt begins when the fielder has the ball, is reasonably close enough to attempt to make a play, and begins to move toward the runner.

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. Per MLB interpretation, the tag attempt begins when the fielder has the ball, is reasonably close enough to attempt to make a play, and begins to move toward the runner.

@@teebob21As usual, the MLB rulebook contains a giant word salad that is no more specific than if the word salad didn't exist. In this play, the pitcher is running, grabs the ball near the ground and continues running as he raises his glove. Regarding the definition you gave, which is it here? - an actual tag attempt, in which case, I think the runner is safe because I don't believe the runner deviates more than 3 feet from the base path once a legitimate tag attempt begins. Maybe that's just my non-expert opinion, but how can you have a tag attempt when you're 6 feet away? On the other hand, with my definition, the runner could just keep running further way and the pitcher would never get close enough to trigger a tag attempt/setting of the base path. If it's the running toward a base/runner definition, then sure, he is clearly out. In conclusion....who knows?! 🙂

@@wackybadger By rule, the tag attempt here started as soon as the pitcher was in possession of the ball. If you don't think he was attempting a tag as soon as he had the ball, what was he doing instead?

@@teebob21 he was running towards the area where he thought he then would try to tag the runner. How can you say that when he fielded the ball he then is making a tag attempt? Hes attempting to move his feet to make a tag. I think the spirit of this rule is more for stationary fielders who are waiting to make a tag and a runner who then moves more than 3 ft to avoid a tag. But if Im wrong I wont be surprised

@@mptr1783 how do you make an out in that situation?

usually what happens if someone keeps arguing a call, there are times where Managers will go out there to argue until an Umpire ejects him

@@MattZRJSRoxyoh I totally get that but I’ve seen worse not get ejected. Point is, he wasn’t yelling or throwing his arms or in his face. Seemed pretty calm and he was even shocked he got tossed 😆

Consider this as part of the "prolonged" qualification for ejecting. At some point you have to move the game along, even there being calm because he had nothing to legitimately argue over the call.

​@@RaleyCreativeTravel true but sadly if he was warned to stop and didn't then it was grounds for ejection, we generally see them use a stop sign signal as a warning for this but not always a guaranteed signal that we'll see

​@@duelist301 yup exactly at some point an Umpire can rule that an argument is delaying the game which can also be grounds for ejection, the call was standing regardless of what the Manager was trying to argue, it was a moot point once the 1st base Umpire wasn't going to change his call

We do it to cover who is going to do what when the ejection almost inevitably occurs. Who has the manager? Who covers comments from the bench? Who has the runner if he starts barking? It's also a pre-emptive move to keep them from asking for another conference when they don't get the result they want from the first one.

Managers don’t understand it, why would you expect commentators would? 😂

@@450thParatrooper it’s their job?

Also, if the pitchers glove had some laces hanging and tagged the runner, would he then be out?

that's kinda harsh calling it an umpire apologist leaning channel when this is a learning the rules channel, her objective is to explain what the rules are so it assists fans, she's been critical of Umpires making poor decisions if it goes against the rules. Part of a tag attempt requires possession of the ball so generally the second an Umpire sees a fielder with a baseball attempts a tag of any kind then that is how they are going to see it, as a tag attempt even if the runner might be out of reach. It might be harsh to see it that way but that's what they were all trained to do. She's also been critical of unfair rules as well but Umpires can't do anything about that, Umpires have to enforce the rules as they are written even if it might create negativity towards them. MLB gives them the power to rule on any matter in a game that's not covered in the rules as well.

Look. I like the videos too but the approach the channel takes towards them is clearly done from a "how can this call be justified via the rules" rather than was it actually the correct call. And any subjective interpretations are taken in a way that defends the umpires call always. This one is a perfect example where the decision point about when the tag has started is being placed at the earliest point you could possibly argue because it has to be to defend the call. No one is going to claim the tag attempt starts while the guy is 6+' away and the pitcher has their glove nearly on the ground without needing to do so to justify the call because that is laughably not a tag attempt at that point. Although you can subjectively argue that it "technically" is under the rules. And it persists with the base path. The evidence is foot placement but nowhere in the rule does it require the entire body to remain within the base path. If it did, someone stepping 1' to the right and throwing their arm straight out to the side for stability would violate that rule every time. Common sense says that it is referring to the body (torso or center of mass) of the runner and if that's what you are judging by, there is no shot that he was anywhere near going out of the base path. But because you can argue the vague rule that it's the feet in this instance, that's what the channel uses because it allows them to claim the Umps were correct.

​@@IkLms11 sadly if you search the rules up then you can easily find it on Baseball Rules Academy so you'd be wrong regarding tag attempts "As of 2017, the fielder no longer has to extend ball in glove or ball in hand toward the runner to create the restricted basepath. Under current rules, the tag attempt begins made the moment the fielder with control of the ball in his hand or glove, makes a motion toward the runner. At that point the runner’s basepath is an “imaginary” straight line to the base he is going to, and he cannot exceed 3-feet to either side of the line. Therefore, the runner has 6-feet of real estate he can use. This is always a judgment call, and it is not reviewable." This was covered due to a controversial tag attempt on Jose Ramirez which was over a month ago, almost 2 months. It's a stupid rule when they aren't within close enough distance but those are the rules and that's what the Umpires are enforcing whether we like them or not. The channel doesn't go out of its way to kiss up to the Umpires, it might seem like that but the job is just to educate people. She's been critical of the Umpires when they do something against the rules and she's been critical of the rules as well when she feels it's a ridiculous rule

I agree.

@@theburnetts that’s what I was thinking as well. One step to the left or right for any person with size and length running could be 3 feet

Tag attempt starts at it's beginning

Incorrect, Baseball Rules Academy actually covered this regarding the controversial tag attempt on Jose Ramirez Now they refer to it as a baseline when it's a basepath so just remember to substitute that in there since most people make that mistake anyway here's what they said, in quotes "As of 2017, the fielder no longer has to extend ball in glove or ball in hand toward the runner to create the restricted baseline. Under current rules, the tag attempt begins made the moment the fielder with control of the ball in his hand or glove, makes a motion toward the runner. At that point the runner’s baseline is an “imaginary” straight line to the base he is going to, and he cannot exceed 3-feet to either side of the line. Therefore, the runner has 6-feet of real estate he can use. This is always a judgment call, and it is not reviewable."

@@MattZRJSRoxy then it's a terrible rule cuz anyone with common sense in knows what the word "attempt" means. That's like saying u attempt a throw when it's in your hands or glove.

​@@cheapseats12 sadly MLB is filled with terrible rules with zero common sense, it's part of the game's charm but in situations like this, it is ridiculous.

@@MattZRJSRoxy oh it ain't just mlb. Believe me I know I've coached high School. A lot of the rules are just nonsense

@@cheapseats12 yup I believe that

yeah, the same MLB that tries to shut her channel down every year for copyright infringement?

hyperbole [ hahy-pur-buh-lee ] noun, Rhetoric. An obvious and intentional exaggeration.

U3 and U4 shouldn't NOT be in the huddle just because they were too far away from the play, but they indeed should have been in the conversation as all umpire's opinions and insights are needed to make the correct call, as some umps may know the rules and nuances of them just a bit more than others.

It is best practice during a crew consultation to involve the entire crew.

Hey did you retain the rights to the BRD after CC died?

@@hankluvsdagny I walked away well before he passed.

No one cares what you think. Brian used experience and finely tuned judgment to make the correct call. There was no luck involved. He did his job.

​@rayray4192 even on review this is close and may have been overturned if allowed.

@@arley2246 umpires are paid to make close calls correctly

@@rayray4192 if you can process 3-4 inches from 30 feet away in a matter of seconds the power to you man. That’s also only if you determine the tag attempt started as soon as the pitcher gloves the ball. It’s so close.

​@@benjaminwirth1208Processing 3-4 inches from 30 feet away is a basic judgment skill that has been mastered by any umpire wishing to work ball at a higher level than JV high school.

Nope that's irrelevant, what needs to be defined is what's an actual tag attempt.

Boo hoo

much less obvious if you use center of mass or if you say the entire player needs to be 3 feet. The rule doesn't specify how to measure. Belly button makes the most sense to me. If you shoot your leg out I don't think that's the intent of the rule.

hes allowed to be out of the lane

Join us on Discord where that logo lives year-round discord.gg/eFXWr7yHWM

Broadcasters rarely know the rules. Most color commentators are former players who rarely know the rules. Many managers rarely know the rules. The game is plum silly with rules illiteracy.

Running on the grass isn't illegal here. The grass is just useful as a reference for how far left the runner is because chalk-to-chalk is exactly 3 feet so grass to chalk is definitely more

Yes, running on the grass is a legal thing.

didnt O'Nora come to him for help?

I agree

As explained in the video, the running lane is irrelevant. The only question is whether or not the batter-runner deviated more than three feet to avoid the tag.

No, that is not how that rule works. Please learn the rules before commenting Daddy Ball answers. Fun fact: if you watch this entire video, you will have an opportunity to learn the applicable rules.

@@alanhess9306 alan, whats your call on this play?

@@mptr1783 I wouldn't call him out unless I was sure he truly violated the 3 feet rule. What do you think? Was he out of his path to avoid the tag? It's really close.

@@alanhess9306 yeah, I agree its close, but the center mass of his body(which I was always taught to look at) doesnt appear 3 ft away

The runner couldn't even reach the bag due to his evasion attempt

Not murky or subjective, people just don't know the rules that the second a fielder has the ball then makes a motion towards a runner then that's considered a tag attempt, it was changed as of 2017, is it fair if they aren't within a reasonable distance for such an attempt? Of course not but MLB rules have a lot of rules that are filled with no common sense. Take the Infield Fly rule for example, now despite the rule's name, the Infield Fly can still be called if the situation warrants it as long as an Umpire rules an Infielder could've caught it with 'ordinary effort' even if they wind up on the outfield grass.

@@MattZRJSRoxy Hitter lines a double to the wall. Outfielder picks up ball at the wall at the same time the runner's foot is on the bag rounding second and outfielder makes a move towards the runner (start of tag attempt). Runner makes a big arc around second because physics. Runner has deviated more than 3 feet from his base path that was established at the time the fielder made a move towards the runner (tag attempt). RUNNER IS OUT for deviating more than 3 feet from the base path. If this is not called this way then the determination of when the tag attempts begins is subjective.

​@@roymauler clearly you're basing it on YOUR flawed and outdated rules. MLB rules don't cover common sense, my rules are accurate and up-to-date and I actually do something called RESEARCH Muted you since you clearly show rules are irrelevant to you if they don't fit what YOU want

@MattZRJSRoxy Sucks when you are put in a position to admit you are wrong. It gives you the chance to be an adult or a whiny baby. You chose the latter. Mute yourself until you grow up and can discuss the topic rather than making nebulous ad hominem attacks.

You missed the part of the rule where the batter is out if they deviate more than 3 feet from their base path "to avoid being tagged". The runner rounding the bases while the ball is in the outfield isn't avoiding being tagged no matter which direction he's running.

Y’all don’t miss

The tool is called an umpire.

​@@rayray4192most time that statement is correct boo yah

@@rayray4192 Ba-dum tiss!

MLB umps are joke, period.