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Ecclesiastical Latin vs Classical Pronunciation History | Latin: The Immortal Language

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Where did the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation come from? Is it the natural evolution of Late Latin? or of so-called "Vulgar" Latin? Is Classical Pronunciation the proper sound for Latin, or is it merely a fad of the past century? What is the history of this Immortal Language? All these questions and more will be answered in this video!
SOURCES: see below.
🦂 Support my work on Patreon:
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📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks:
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🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus"
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🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon:
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You can find Late Latin and Early Romance by Roger Wright at this link on Amazon:
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Thanks for your comments, and for liking and sharing the video. I'm very grateful to have you as a subscriber. 😊 Please see these videos relevant to the topic of this video:
Romans did write with macrons! Video essay on Latin Apices & Hidden Quantity
• Romans *did* write wit...
Dr. Randall Buth on Ancient Greek pronunciation:
• Randall Buth - Pronunc...
My talk on Latin & Greek Pronunciation Evolution 500 BC to 500 AD
• Latin & Greek Pronunci...
In Defense of the Ecclesiastical Pronunciation of Latin
• In Defense of the Eccl...
Gospel of John with 5th century AD Latin pronunciation:
• The Bible in 3 Greek &...
Dē rēctā Ecclēsiasticā prōnūntiātiōne - Correct Ecclesiastical Latin Pronunciation
• Dē rēctā Ecclēsiasticā...
Many thanks to Raphael Turrigiano for his help in the research and editing of the script! See his videos here: / paleogloss
And here are the websites of three prominent Latin speakers from Italy who use the Restored Classical Pronunciation:
Irene Regini:
saturalanx.eu
Alessandro Conti:
alexanderveron...
Roberto Carfagni:
scholalatina.it
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SOURCES
The Pronunciation of Greek and Latin, Edgar Howard Sturtevant
amzn.to/3W4nt45
Vox Graeca, by w. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3FsiCT6
Vox Latina, by W. Sidney Allen
amzn.to/3WdPxSY
Greek: A History of the Language and its People, Geoffrey Horrocks
amzn.to/3FXYedR
The Regional Diversification of Latin 200 BC - AD 600, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TRGZ2w
An Anthology of Informal Latin, 200 BC-AD 900: Fifty Texts with Translations and Linguistic Commentary, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3gSPOdM
Social Variation and the Latin Language, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3TQ4tVF
Early and Late Latin: Continuity or Change?, by JN Adams
amzn.to/3WcqzDn
Late Latin and Early Romance in Spain and Carolingian France (Arca Classical and Medieval Texts, Papers and Monographs, by Roger Wright
amzn.to/3gVkgE0
Breve grammatica storica dell’italiano, by Paolo D’Achille
amzn.to/3fcfv8V

Опубликовано:

23 июл 2020

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Комментарии : 1,3 тыс.

@polyMATHY_Luke Год назад

🤠 Take my course LATIN UNCOVERED on StoryLearning, including my original Latin adventure novella "Vir Petasātus" learn.storylearning.com/lu-promo?affiliate_id=3932873 🦂 Sign up for my Latin Pronunciation & Conversation series on Patreon: www.patreon.com/posts/54058196 🦂 Support my work on Patreon: www.patreon.com/LukeRanieri 📚 Luke Ranieri Audiobooks: luke-ranieri.myshopify.com

@RedXD42 4 года назад

Ah yes, my favorite English-speaking Roman.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Adsum tibi! 😃🦂

@RedXD42 4 года назад

polýMATHY Salve! :)

@roseguber3240 3 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke But are you Roman?

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

@@roseguber3240 haha I’m Italian-American

@roseguber3240 3 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke Not Roman then...haha

@N0m5T3r 3 года назад

Can you just imagine how proud a Roman would be to learn that 2000 years later Latin is still so widespread and important.

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

Very proud!

@MaiiOrduna 3 года назад

Roma Victrix!

@AverageAlien 3 года назад

They wouldn't be happy at all learning that Rome was not in fact eternal.

@-smp-scientificmethodpersp838 3 года назад

@@AverageAlien to keep it remembered is to make it immortal. So long as one person remembers it, it will never die.

@greendeane1 3 года назад

With no native speakers it is a dead language. Greek, older, more comprehensive, is still spoken by millions.

@nzeminator 4 года назад

I've always known that Lex Luthor was a man of culture

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Alberto Bruni indeed. 😂 😈

@a2falcone 4 года назад

I now know why polýMATHY makes me uncomfortable hahaha.

@bannedaccount3752 3 года назад

*Victor Zsasz

@Ecolinguist 4 года назад

Thanks for clarifying! :)

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

My pleasure!

@Stray___ 4 года назад

"If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" - Latin to the Germanic languages.

@Robwolf28 4 года назад

No one actually speaks Latin and French has Germanic cognates in it I discovered some. Then the word guard is just a transliteration of warden.

@Malaestro 3 года назад

@@Robwolf28 Yes they do. There's been a Latin radio broadcast in Finland for decades

@achanwahn 3 года назад

@@Robwolf28 also, this is way too literal. 🙄

@achanwahn 3 года назад

😆

@bertrandgeorgeon3992 Год назад

"This is when latin died ; said better, it became immortal". More than erudition, this is pure poetry.

@polyMATHY_Luke Год назад

Very kind.

@TheZenytram 4 года назад

I joked to my father this days that Latin is the language that all timetravels should spoke. If you go to much back in time your native language isnt the same as you speak, and if you go too much in the future no one will speak like you do but Latin will never changed.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Definitely! Certainly the written language.

@iosusito5683 4 года назад

What if want to travel before the raise of the Roman Empire? 😂😂 Proto indoeuropean maybe?

@malster1239 4 года назад

@@iosusito5683 Greek?

@Username-xt6ll 4 года назад

If you knew Classical (or, even Modern Standard Arabic), you would have the same advantage in the Arab world. To an extent, you'd have that advantage in the entire Islamic world when communicating with individuals who learned Arabic as a second, liturgical language. It's really cool to see languages that can do that. I wonder if there are more languages besides Arabic and Latin that can?

@a2falcone 4 года назад

@@iosusito5683 Classical Latin is still closer to Proto Indoeuropean than any contemporary language.

@eccentricnima9077 4 года назад

As a medical laboratory science student, I always prefer to pronounce the name of microorganisms in Classical Latin.

@PodcastItaliano 4 года назад

I have to admit I do kind of like the ecclesiastical pronunciation a little better, maybe because I'm Italian or because that's the one I'm most familiar with. But yeah, as they say, dē gustibus et colōribus nōn disputandum est

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Exactly! And I think that's fine.

@deumevet 4 года назад

i don't like ecclesiastical latin for the same reasonXD looks like an italian reading latin for the first time.

@ariannabinaghi5222 3 года назад

@@deumevet yes, but after all Italian is the evolution of Latin...

@MrWolf-xk8sl 3 года назад

La pronuncia classica è molto meglio perchè si capisce l'etimologia delle parole odierne.

@AleaRandomAm 3 года назад

@@ariannabinaghi5222 As is Portuguese, French, Castillan, Gallician, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Catalan, Occitan, Romanian and other dialects... It's not a reason to pronounce it in the French or the Portuguese way

@jopeteus 4 года назад

16:50 as a Finnish speaker, this sounds more natural to me than current English pronunciation

@step7814 3 года назад

Same for Russian.

@holywarrior5059 3 года назад

Same for Hungarian. On the contrary, the current English (and American etc.) pronunciations are irritatingly "unnatural". :D

@AngelVazquez-xh1dh 3 года назад

Same for Spanish

@Cherodar 3 года назад

@@holywarrior5059 As an American and native English speaker, I agree with you! I wish we would go back to a reconstructed phonetic pronunciation.

@magyarbondi 3 года назад

This part made me laugh. Basically, we East-Europeans speak "restored English". :D

@tomkot 4 года назад

16:50 This is actually a very correct pronunciation, we should make that the new universal standard spoken English :)

@ogorangeduck 4 года назад

bring back the thorn and yogh

@servantofaeie1569 4 года назад

honestly i wouldnt mind that. im tired of so many inconsistancies in English pronunciation, from a cot-caught pin-pen GAE speaker

@teleonomix 4 года назад

I agree. People always want to reform English writing, but it isn't broken. Simply native English speakers don't know how to correctly pronounce what is written.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

hahaha

@servantofaeie1569 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke i could actually understand it about 80%, its the lack of s-sh distiction that threw me off the most

@patrykjansozanski 4 года назад

When I was in school, in Poland, we used to learn only Ecclesiastical Latin - I don't know why. No one explained it to us. I was even 100% sure that the rules I knew were correct, so I had to check if you were not making mistakes, when I started to follow you and then for the very first time I got to know that there were couple systems of pronunciation. :)

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Cześć! Thanks so much!

@VasileIuga 3 года назад

The late Latin sounds like a grumpy Romanian.

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

😆

@BulletTheEnforcer 3 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke He didn’t forget Romanian!

@1johnnygunn Год назад

Grumpy? You should have heard my German grandma yelling, "himmel arsch, und swirn!"

@thepcmaster 4 года назад

How you read the English text with classical Latin pronunciation at ~16:52 is almost exactly as Slovaks, Czechs, Poles, Hungarians, Romanians and many others, who don't actually speak any English, read English naturally :) Of course with our local qualities of individual sounds, which are, however, very similar to classical Latin (I'm simplifying)! Thanks for an awesome video :)

@demezon6572 2 года назад

In a word: true.

@thego-dev Год назад

(estonian too, so it's quite intelligible for me as well!)

@Yorgos2007 Год назад

Very true! (I'm from Hungary.)

@lwmaynard5180 Год назад

Ancient Latin came from the Cimmerian tongue or language ? It spread from THRACE through out Europe with their DNA ?

@CloudslnMyCoffee 4 года назад

I honestly just like the sound of Ecclesiastical better. It amazes me that there are people who look down on others for using the "wrong" pronunciation as uneducated. Really? Didn't those "other" speakers learn the same language? Why get mad because someone speaks with an accent? Bonus points if the snobs don't maintain vowel length.

@ferencdojcsak8576 3 года назад

My mom learned Latin in high school and I knew a lot about the language since I was little. But she could never explain me how Latin became "dead" or in your terms, "Immortal" (or how she knew how to pronounce if the language was dead), and how the Romance languages branched off, or, again in your well-put terms, how Latin branched off from them. I even forgot how desperate I was to find the answer back then. Today, I'm not only reminded of that, but finally got my answer. Thank you!

@murrax7639 4 года назад

So many people get so worked up about this. I'm a Catholic who attends the traditional Latin mass. As long as people respect our priests and our traditions for pronouncing Latin in the Ecclesiastical way and don't force them to use Classical Latin, then I'm completely fine with the academic circles (Edit: Or literally any other circle for that matter) using Classical Latin. Does anyone seriously think that Julius Caeser would have used Ecclesiastical Latin? Come on. This "debate" has been something I have been utterly perplexed about ever since I started learning Ecclesiastical Latin, it's such a non-issue.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks, Murray! Yeah I concur. I really like both a lot, so it’s a shame how people will seek to vilify the other.

@RichardDCook 4 года назад

I'm Catholic too. Unfortunately I came into the Church long after Latin had been marginalised, however one local Parish has been re-introducing Latin into their English Masses and also does a Latin Mass each week. When singing/chanting/responding I use the reconstructed Classical pronunciation I learned in school a half-century ago (it's all I know).

@Robwolf28 4 года назад

@@RichardDCook The preservation of Romanism, Judaeo-Christianity is not confined to one language.

@Robwolf28 4 года назад

@@Thelaretus The usages of personifications as to say the community of disciples of Messiah Yeshua the Lord, makes no sense outside of the context. So if you were making an analogy perhaps but outside of that, it seems like nothing. Then people need to understand what a community means it is not just gathering at a building.

@RichardDCook 4 года назад

@@Robwolf28 That's true enough, though somewhat random, having no relationship to anything I said in my own comment.

@loitadoranonimo6811 4 года назад

Latinized pronounciation of English sounds just like an Italian speaking English

@shrektheswampless6102 3 года назад

Kind of but his accent is weird. I mean it sounds like "Latin accent".

@RobertSeviour1 3 года назад

'Pro nunce iation' please.

@tita_piranna 3 года назад

Also similar to how someone in soain with 0 idea of english would read aloud a text 😅😅😂

@anon003 2 года назад

I am Italian and I can confirm, it doesn't sound so unnatural to me

@marna_li 4 года назад

Great video! We tend to see "Latin" as one homogenous thing, the same everywhere, which it was not. Even the Roman soldiers from the Italian peninsula had their "dialects" that evolved into the Italian languages of today. When conquering and settling foreign territories they mixed and incorporated the vocabulary and grammatical features of languages already spoken there into their colloquial or "vulgar" speech which later got standardized and evolved into the Romance languages of today. It was a great exchange of language and culture. Latin (with Vulgar Latin dialects) likely existed in this state of diglossia for most of the time. And to mention, there has been a wave of re-latinization of the modern languages in the last 300 years.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Definitely! Thanks. 😊

@Spvrinnaeli 4 года назад

I would love to see a comparison/deep-dive into the various national pronunciations of Latin prior to the Restored taking hold (i.e., what Latin sounded like in Portugal, Spain, France, etc. before Restored was adopted.)

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Jônatas Cabral nice idea! I’ve done a few on my other channel ScorpioMartianus which you can find.

@Spvrinnaeli 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke Bizarre, I looked before but I must have missed it. I'll check again more thoroughly!

@dseanjackson1 10 месяцев назад

@@Spvrinnaeli I thought the same thing! Also, I looked and couldn't find any of those other videos either.🤔

@warrenlehmkuhleii8472 4 года назад

I am Catholic, so I prefer Ecclesiastical, because that is where I am going to use Latin most. But I do appreciate Classical, because that is what many of the great works of Rome were written in.

@vincenzorutigliano5435 4 года назад

Latin Mass 🇻🇦🇻🇦🇻🇦

@cristianotavor 4 года назад

I prefer Ecclesiastical latin

@Riposte821 Год назад

But the written is the same, no? Just the pronunciation differs now.

@alonsoACR Год назад

@@Riposte821 yep

@eduzz4655 Год назад

"SO I prefer". I don't see the compulsory connection.

@alexsteb 4 года назад

You deserve every single Patreon supporter. So much free and well-presented information. amazing

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Wow, thank you! You're so kind.

@thomasm5714 4 года назад

How amazing would it be to travel back in time and plant a hidden microphone to capture Cicero's Catiline orations to the Senate? Just imagine having those high-def MP3 files on your phone and being able to listen to them while reading the corresponding texts...

@kaminobatto 4 года назад

I really appreciate the research and effort that must have gone into making this video. Great stuff, Luke!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thank you Yamen!

@AlexisPerez-yy7dk 4 года назад

I am a native Latin speaker of the Castilian variation who also happens to speak the parisian variation of Latin. Also the most important thing I learned from this video is that I'm not the only one who has beef with Ecclesiastical Latin #teamclassicalLatin. magnifico video!

@ruralsquirrel5158 4 года назад

This was REALLY interesting and helped clear up a lot of confusion I have had about Latin for decades.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I'm so glad! 😃

@wgk4845 4 года назад

polyMATHY: Latin has become immortal Classical Arabic: Hold my coffee

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

hahaha. Well, Arabic is in the situation where Latin was circa 800 AD: a high style register exists above various dialects and pronunciations that are rapidly diverging. Eventually, if Classical Arabic is retained as a non-native instrument of international communication, it will become 'immortal.'

@AraboNormand 4 года назад

eherm twitter.com/ArabiEdris/status/1287326104152408065

@jackpayne4658 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke An old friend of mine grew up in Afghanistan, speaking Pushtun, but learned classical Arabic at his Islamic school. Many years later, he visited Morocco - where they speak Arabic, of a kind. He tried ordering food in a restaurant, using the only Arabic he knew. The waiters gathered round, awestruck by his beautiful pronunciation. Then one of them muttered, 'We are so sorry, Sir - we didn't really understand a word you said'.

@ic.xc. 4 года назад

Well Arabic didn’t exist really at the time of the Roman Empire as a written language, Syriac was the most common language at the time of Mohammed, there is even a lot of influence of Syriac in the Quran.

@sophiaperennis2360 4 года назад

@@ic.xc. Arabic dates back from the age of Hammurabi, doesn't it? Not that the "immortality" of Latin has anything to do with its age.

@stuartrackham6316 4 года назад

Absolutely fascinating! Particularly your highlighting the Carolingian standardisation of Latin and its role as a formative precursor of the Renaissance. "Latin the Immortal Language", love it, more tee shirt material.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thank you! haha I'll make that shirt.

@grumpyoldman8661 4 года назад

What an absorbing video, and Luke is obviously a very gifted linguist. In my old age I am starting to 'tip my toe' into the deep lake which is the Latin language, as I have an interest in the history of the Roman Republic, and, also (as a catholic) in Ecclesiastical Latin. This was a stimulus to my studies; thanks Luke. (UK)

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I'm very happy you liked the video! :D Much obliged for the kind comments. Have you seenmy LLPSI and Lingua Latina Comprehensibilis course on my other channel ScorpioMartianus? That's the fastest way to fluency!

@Larofan 3 года назад

Wow this channel deserves more credit :O very informative! during my 5 years of linguistic studies noone ever tried to explain this switch.. it was always Roman Empire and Latin and then razzle dazzle poof and Latin is no more - only localized stumps of modern era languages... thank you for making this easily understandable :)

@Marco_Venieri 3 года назад

i study roman history and latin literature in Italy, at the university of Macerata, and our teacher of latin reads with ecclesiastical pronunciation

@Ernest4502 3 года назад

I just discovered your channel and I have to say that I have never been so impressed in my life. God bless you and never stop what you are doing Brother !

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

That’s so nice of you to say! Welcome!

@ilgufo1146 4 года назад

Sei così carismatico che riusciresti a vendere una fornitura annuale di assorbenti ad una comunità di soli uomini

@Philo-math 4 года назад

... or ice to an Inuit.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

😂😂😂 grazie!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

@@Philo-math lol

@consigliereparlamentare5649 3 года назад

Bravissimo

@MariaKozorezova 3 года назад

I laughed so hard on English text reading with Latin pronunciation 👏👏👏😂 Understood everything, this is the accent and pronunciation lots of Slavs have when they start learning English and some still have it even though they're already fluent :D Loved it!!

@iberius9937 7 месяцев назад

Revisiting this video three years later......one of your best projects! Quality content!

@polyMATHY_Luke 7 месяцев назад

Grātiās, amīce!

@SketchyTigers 3 года назад

Back when I was first learning english as a kid, because I also knew polish when I learnt how to spell words it would sound much like how you spoke at 16:50. I still pronounced it the correct way but internally when spelling it out it sounded very pure and classical. Your pronunciation seems very natural to me as I often read with a very hard, calculated pronunciation when reading part of an english article while talking with my parents in Polish as my standard r.p. accent is difficult to understand for non native speakers sometimes and I spend a great deal of my time speaking Polish in general

@pietrocasablanca8500 3 года назад

Loved the video! One of my favourite documents that shows the transition from latin to medieval italian is in the"placiti cassinesi" , essentially a trial transcription where the witness testimony was reported in the original vulgar from the 10th century. "Sao ko kelle terre, per kelle fini que ki contene, trenta anni le possette parte Sancti Benedicti." I think the use of the letter "K" in front of e and i already showed that back then in Italy, the "C" sound had the current soft sound

@Eskalante 4 года назад

16:50 is how my father reads english :) Slovak language has specific sound for each letter and as he don't speak english, he reads it as Slovak.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I love Slovak! 🇸🇰

@ccelletti 4 года назад

Video eccezionale. Ho scoperto il tuo canale da poco, la mia fidanzata, che conosce la pronuncia ecclesiastica, criticava la tua pronuncia classica. Incuriosito, ho trovato la tua spiegazione illuminante. Grazie!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Sono contento! 😃 Sì, abbiamo molte pronunce che possiamo usare in latino.

@josephbaumann292 Год назад

I am so fascinated by your knowledge of the history of Latin. I can't get enough of your videos.

@polyMATHY_Luke Год назад

Thanks!

@massimolisoni4990 3 года назад

This is the most interesting video I ever watched about the origin of my language (italian). 😱 THANK YOU

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

Sono molto contento se ti è piaciuto! ❤️🇮🇹

@heynyquildriver 3 года назад

I refuse to believe that this guy sounds American. No he sounds Latin. He should speak American with a Latin accent. Such a shock coming from Norbert.

@leonardodecillis 4 года назад

Got here from your reply to my comment on your previous video. This definitely confirms my understanding of how the Ecclesiastical Latin behaves and was formed, it seems to have been made to sound somewhat close to Italian afterwards and was not a natural evolution of the language. Great in-depth explanation here! I would love in the future an analysis of the evolution of the pronunciation of the letter written as "c" in romance languages as it still baffles me today. I am very fascinated by how that evolved and became so different. I mean, translated in "english sounds" what once was pronounced as "k" in latin became "ch" in Italian, "s" in Spanish and was often replaced by ch sounding something like "sh" in French, etc. I would love a video in the future about how that might have happened/evolved, I feel like c took so many different directions. 😉 Anyways, love both your channels, keep up the amazing work! 😎

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I’m glad you liked the video! Thanks so much for being a subscriber of both channels. 😊 Yes, that’s an interesting topic! I’ll definitely cover it.

@Philoglossos 4 года назад

So here's more or less what happened: Firstly, [k] began to shift to [c] before /i/ and /e/. [c] is a palatal stop, a sound you can hear in the modern Greek word και. Compare 'και' (the site 'forvo' has recordings) with the Spanish word 'que' to hear the difference between [ke] and [ce]. This [c] sound then transformed into the [tʃ] sound of modern Italian and Romanian, which fascinatingly has also happened to Cypriot Greek, so in Cypriot 'και' is pronounced like Spanish 'che'. Subsequently in Western Romance (Old French/Spanish/Portuguese etc.) [tʃ] shifted further forward in the mouth to [ts] like the 'ts' in 'cats'. It remained this way for a while until it lost its affrication and became [s]. Then in standard European Spanish it shifted forward to become a dental fricative [θ] to avoid merging with inherited /s/, while in southern dialects it merged with the inherited /s/ sound and that's how you get distinción vs seseo. Latin America was settled by southern Spanish speakers so that's why Latin America has seseo. Another parallel would be English and German. Compare English 'water' with German 'wasser'. Old High German first turned the original 't' into 'ts', and then into just 's'.

@gaialoperfido5619 3 года назад

Very interesting video!! Watching previous videos I’ve been wondering why your Latin pronunciation sounded a bit different from the Latin pronunciation we are taught in Italy and I finally know why now. Good job

@diegocembrolamusica 4 года назад

Permultas gratias tibi, Luci, propter curam tuam nostrae vetustae atque neglectae Latinae linguae. Being Italian, ecclesiastical pronuntiation is the way I pronounce Latin, usually. But in spite of this, I prefer and advocate "pronuntia restituta", for two main reasons: 1) It is more consistent, phonetically, and uses less phonemes (sounds). That makes it easier spreading Latin as an international second language 2) It lets you focus on, and understand much better, ethymology. For ex., if you pronounce "ti"+vowel properly and don't use Ramist letters, you can see the relationship between "natio" and "natus", "nauis" and "nauta", "salue" and "salus", etc.

@xolang 4 года назад

I'd never really thought of Latin being immortalized this way. Thanks for the new perspective. Handsome man, handsome voice, handsome knowledge sharing. 👍🏾 You got a new subscriber from Ινδονησία. 😊

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thank you to you in Indonesia!

@aaronmalek4499 4 года назад

I want to learn Latin primarily because I hear it every time I go to Mass. I've had a little unease because the best instruction I can find uses the classical pronunciation. After your video I feel much better. Thank you.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I’m delighted to hear that, Aaron! Yes, it’s very easy to convert one to the other. As you can see I easily can use both, which is just a matter of practice. Mutual tolerance I think is crucial, since otherwise we cut ourselves off from great material in the other pronunciation. It would be like spurning UK English to prefer US material. It’s too limiting.

@timo4258 4 года назад

I kinda wish that in movies where they depict actual Romans, they would speak classical latin instead of ecclesiastical

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Me too, if they're in historical ancient Roman times, using a pronunciation of that time would be fantastic.

@elimalinsky7069 4 года назад

@Dave Zav Not only that, but in Judaea the Roman officials would have spoken Greek with the local elites, not Latin. They would still speak Latin among themselves in private, but Greek was the administrative language of the eastern half of the empire at that time. Even so, Jesus would probably have had only very basic knowledge of Greek, if at all, let alone Latin.

@cannong1728 4 года назад

@Dave Zav At least he made some sort of effort...

@Loreman72 4 года назад

@Dave Zav Actually, the actor who played Pilatus was from central Europe, and you can hear him speak with a strong Slavic twang, esp. when he says, 'Quod est veritas, Claudia?' I was quite chuffed to catch that.

@alternateperson6600 4 года назад

That depends on the epoch of course. With Silver Age you would expect residual palatalization even amongst the elites. For golden or classical era reconstructed pronunciation is indeed fairer and universally applicable.

@boominem8177 4 года назад

oh thanks a lot for this video! I just learned that what I learned at school was the ecclesiastical pronunciation. I was not even aware that another pronunciation existed (sorry). I studied Latin so many years ago and your videos are trying to pull out long discarded memories from my brain!!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Great!

@feleslucis-emanueldearaujo6237 4 года назад

Good to see you finally put all of this in a single video! I was looking forward to it! You know I prefer to use mostly the Ecclesiastical, but I also like the Classical for some cases regarding recitation of some poems and also reading ancient texts, while Ecclesiastical sounds quite better when praying, for reading some medieval texts (especially from Saints Augustin and Thomas Aquinas) and also for talking (although I've been trying to get better at Classical so I can talk with you guys more properly in the chats). Thank you again for this class! Also, I hope that guy finally gives up on his repeated comments in your video trying to attack the RLP.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks, Emanuel! Haha, that guy, you mention, is Russell, who has already become infamous in the comments sections of my videos for his posts. 😂And yes, he did comment. You'll find my response to him here in the comments below.

@feleslucis-emanueldearaujo6237 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke dude...He doesn't give up, does he?

@tita_piranna 3 года назад

As a spaniard seeing the 4th-5th century changes in italy is like being there when your brother moves out and has their first job

@whitemakesright2177 3 месяца назад

I find it so fascinating that going all the way back to Charlemagne, there have been linguists attempting to "restore" the Latin of the Roman "Golden Age" against the "degeneration" it had suffered by being a living language. Probably there were scholars who attempted this even before Charlemagne, who simply weren't successful because they lacked a patron powerful enough to enforce the reforms. The more I study history, the more it becomes clear to me that we humans have always been more or less the same. Technology advances, fashions change, but in our humanity we are just as we were 2,000 years ago. And I love that.

@gabrielgads 4 года назад

Perfeito. Everytime I learn a little bit of latin it is worth my time! There is also law teachers latin...There is a movement in Brazil to avoid the use of latin expressions in the court and roman law is no longer an obligatory subject in law school. Only after finding your channel I knew what I was missing. Thank you! Obrigado.

@dottore3870 4 года назад

¡Qué pena! El derecho romano y las expresiones latinas solían marcar la erudición de un abogado.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Obrigado also to you!

@lxportugal9343 4 года назад

É melhor eu nem falar rsrsrs

@angeloflorentino4060 2 года назад

Isso realmente é uma desgraça.

@sterlingcontreras1302 4 года назад

The Roman pronunciation is often called the Roman pronunciation because it pronounced the way Romans speak. If you don't believe it, go to Rome and you will find plenty of people using that pronunciation. If Restored Classical is the de facto international standard, Ecclesiastical is the de jure international standard. On another note, do we have clips of Roberto Carfagni saying he prefers the Restored Classical pronunciation? I studied under him, and every conversation he has stated that the Restored Classical pronunciation is more common in International communities of Latin speakers thus it helps him reach more people to use the Restored Classical pronunciation. Unless we are just using prefer meaning to use frequently or more frequently.

@Philoglossos 4 года назад

There is no de jure standard. Latin belongs to everyone - that's the whole point lol.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Naturally I do mean “prefer” to mean “prefer to use more frequently in order to increase international appeal,” which I stated in the video with similar words. If our wonderful friend Roberto subjectively likes the sound of Ecclesiastical more, I would not be surprised. I would expect most Italians feel that way. People usually like what’s familiar.

@hwangsaessi2335 4 года назад

I don't know much about the topic, but this has been pretty interesting. Besides, your voice, narration style and (English) pronunciation are very nice to listen to!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Aw thanks! 🥰

@aadamy 4 года назад

THANK YOU. This cleared up all my questions! I used to love singing the Carmina Burana with all the different pronunciations!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Glad it was helpful!

@MegaMayday16 3 года назад

When you pronounce knight the old english way suddenly for me as a german speaker the word suddenly makes sense.knight is closed to Knecht

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

Exactly!

@seanbeadles7421 3 года назад

The great vowel shift really did a doozy on mutual intelligibility for other Germanic languages. And then the damn Germans had to do a whole consonantal shift to make it worse!

@FLEurThaie 3 года назад

Très informatif et en plus tellement agréable !! Merci mille fois de partager votre passion avec nous !

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

Merci a vous!

@fredcaprilli220 3 года назад

Luke - this video blew my mind. Fantastic - pithy, and taught me many things I didn't know. It's wonderful to hear Latin spoken fluently! As background, I'm a first generation Canadian, son of Tuscan immigrants. I speak Italian more or less fluently (although after 60 plus years of speaking Canadian-inflected English, I now struggle with the Italian trilled R's - maledetto!) I took four years of Latin in highschool, where we learned the "Classical" pronunciation. I have an extremely erudite uncle who lives in Rome, a (now retired) gastroenterologist, who fancies himself a Latin scholar, and when he saw my textbook all those years ago, recoiled in horror at how we were being taught "incorrect" pronunciation (it's not KAIZAR, it's CHEZZAR!), presumably because we New World rubes couldn't handle Italianate sounds, and of course who would know better how Latin should sound than the descendants of the Romans? (Sigh.) At any rate, I had always assumed that "church Latin" was a late evolution of the classical language in parallel with vulgar Latin becoming Italian. But you explained how the change in pronunciation started much earlier. You observe that there is very little difference in the two forms. But I guess I'd observe that when you look at medieval documents such as Magna Carta, there are terms (related to administration etc.) that perhaps would not have been familiar to the ancient Romans. I wonder too about the "Vulgate Bible". (I have a print of the first page of Genesis from the Gutenberg Bible in my office.) It seems the vocabulary is fairly basic (I can understand much of it without resorting to a dictionary) and I'm wondering if that reflects a simplification of the language itself or an editorial decision to make it accessible to more people. Thanks, and look forward to watching the rest of your videos!

@y2ksw1 4 года назад

This explains a lot. Thank you for this insightful explanation!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Glad you enjoyed it!

@waldowopa 3 года назад

Awesome video! The man really loves the word "thus". I studied classical latin and some time after that I started studing singing and they wanted me to pronounce with the ecclesiastical pronounciation... I mean. It made sense because I was usually singing masses and other sacred music... But I had to relearn how to pronounce it. Also sometimes I am required to use what musicians call the german pronounciation. So it is confusing!

@luigifontana4164 3 года назад

In Arabic a similar process is currently happening.. separation between so called dialects and the classical formal arabic (that nobody speaks in real life..) very interesting.

@gmcrosa 4 года назад

Salve. Your channel is delicious. And your pronunciation is admirable.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Aw htanks, Gonzalo! 🥰 Salvē et tū.

@mariapicciBeauty 4 года назад

Thank you for this video, very instructive.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Grazie a te, Maria! 😊

@allenfilmore5725 4 года назад

So I used to work at a pet store in the fish department and this woman comes in a says a Latin fish name I correct here pronunciation using my Ecclesiastical Latin bias not knowing there even was a classical pronunciation. She said she was a Latin teacher and I was saying it wrong. I say I was taught Latin 10 years and she said “well they taught you wrong”. I can say I was a bit offended.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Great story! Thanks for telling it. Things like you mentioned are the whole reason I made this video. 😊 People need to be aware that there is more than one pronunciation standard. Ecclesiastical isn’t wrong, Classical isn’t wrong. I’m a bit shocked if she had no idea Ecclesiastical even existed, but that’s possible. 🤷‍♂️ Thanks for the comment!

@Hesperell 3 года назад

You were both being pedantic. You probably should not have corrected her, but honestly she should not have started by pronouncing it as classical Latin in the first place, since the convention for scientific names in the English-speaking world is the traditional (pre-reconstructed) English Latin pronunciation.

@adrianokury 4 года назад

Very interesting and well-presented clarifications. Tolerance seems to be the keyword here.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks! I concur. 😊

@thinking-ape6483 4 года назад

Your videos are always a treat.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

And so are your comments! Thanks 😊

@mariorossi3898 7 месяцев назад

Thanks/Grazie for this "super" excellent lecture. Being Italian and having studied Latin at school, I tend to prefer the Ecclesiastical pronunciation of Latin that, I find more refined, if I may say. But your detailed explanation helped me to understand the evolution through centuries and countries of the language of Cicero or Kikero :) Now I see clearly the direct connection of pronunciation from Caesar (Kaesar) into the German Kaiser. I have just subscribed; Gratias tantum "Rufus" :)

@eduardothiagomonteiro980 3 года назад

Seu canal é ótimo! Parabéns!

@lucascampana2993 3 года назад

The english spelling pronuntiation is pretty much a spanish speaker reading english without knowing a single bit of it

@panier2 3 года назад

This video is very interesting. I knew almost nothing about the latin language and had no idea that we had clues to the historical pronunciation of Latin back to the Roman Empire. Thank you very much for sharing this knowledge with us.

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

Thanks so much for watching!

@Veon1 4 года назад

Super interesting video! As an aside, for anyone who is interested in the evolution of one those "vulgar" forms of Latin, the Portuguese/Galician languages, I recently read a book that I highly recommend: "Assim Nasceu uma Língua / Assi Naceu Ũa Lingua" by Fernando Venâncio (2019). Among other things, it makes quite convincing arguments that around 600 AD there were major and rapid changes to the speech in the Northwestern corner of Hispania that clearly split it off from the rest of the Romance world. It also documents the evolution of Old Galician into Portuguese and modern Galician, including attempts after the Renaissance to "re-Latinize" the language.

@jjmourajr 4 года назад

i'm always waiting for the next video, thank you Luke!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks, JJ!!

@olbrok 4 года назад

16:50 as a native Finnish speaker it was quite easy to adapt to the weird English. I’m just starting on my Latin learning journey and enjoying your videos a lot!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks so much! Are you familiar with my LLPSI playlist on ScorpioMartianus?

@olbrok 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke I am! I'm currently using your videos and duolingo to try gauge my interest and decide if I should take the leap and order the books... Before your appearance on Ecolinguist I had no idea that a latin language community exists on youtube!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

@@olbrok Cool! Yes our community is awesome.

@KilVall 4 года назад

@@olbrok Tervetuloa, ystävä! Gaudēbimus quī Latīne loquimur novum Finnum inter nōs habēre (et nōn sōlum quia Finnicae vōcālēs aptissimae sunt prōnūntiātiōnī Latīnae).

@lqr824 Год назад

Hi Luke, fascinating subject and I bet everyone seeing the title and clicking the link knows why someone would want to watch. So just edit off the first 50 second and start with "first off." You needn't tease us into wanting to watch this. No-one's here by accident.

@richrumble 3 года назад

Fascinating. Thank-you. I falsely assumed educated Latin was much more constant in its pronunciation from the 1st to 5th centuries.

@ogorangeduck 4 года назад

Then Greek adds even more complexity. Restored Attic? Koine (common or learned)? A blend like your Lucian system? Erasmian? Just use modern? So many choices... Personally, I want to be fluent (and conversational) in Attic, but it seems most use Koine/modern and not really the restored Classical pronunciation (but when I'm more fluent, I'll be the change I wish to see in the world, and make songs and podcasts in restored Attic pronunciation, guided by your spreadsheet) Great video as always, Λούκιε!

@rolandbollien3831 4 года назад

I can feel your problem so much! I also prefer the restored classical pronounciation, but most of the videos are in Koine, Lucian or in some kind of hybrid form. Furthermore in my university the Erasmian tradition is still dominant. Theres really a lack of restored Attic.

@TheZenytram 4 года назад

I know nothing about greek, so, is there 6 convention of how to speak ancient greek ?

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Χάριν σοι! Yeah, it's really not that big a deal. The most importart part of good Ancient Greek and Latin pronunciation is phonemic vowel and syllable length: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-D3bmLi1bKI0.html

@Michail_Chatziasemidis 4 года назад

Even though I am Greek myself, I prefer the Classical Attic pronunciation (even if many times I don't understand what I read). However, I still try to adjust my pronunciation according to the pronunciation that the author of each work I read might have used. For Greek archaists in the Ottoman era I use modern Greek, for Anna Comnena I use a more modern but with the ι~υ distinction, each Koine writer with their probable pronunciation, LXX with an Egyptian Koine pronunciation and so on. Luke's spreadsheet truly helps me achieve this. But eventually, I propose you use whatever helps you the most and makes you understandable to others; thus learning many pronunciations might help.

@ogorangeduck 4 года назад

@@polyMATHY_Luke For sure! Quantity is an important thing to consider, just as much as the consonants and vowels (take Σωκράτης vs Σωκράτες). It's rather like tone in my heritage language Mandarin. Though I am not really fluent, I know the difference between 眼睛yan3jing1 and 眼镜yan3jing4 (eyes vs. glasses, only difference is the tone; everything else is pronounced the same). Tangent aside about why quantity is an important part of pronunciation, I'd also be remiss if I were to dub Biggus Dickus or Ben-Hur in Greek and use the Attic pronunciation; it'd simply be anachronistic! (definitely garden-variety Koine as opposed to Learned Koine) In reading certain documents, different pronunciations can be preferable, but the default I'd like to use the restored Attic pronunciation as default (much like how the default pronunciation of spoken Latin is the classical pronunciation, but when reading a 20th century papal document, ecclesiastical pronunciation is probably more appropriate) btw πῶς λέγεις "video" ἤ "channel" ἐν Ἑλληνικήν;

@MarkRosa 4 года назад

I had had no idea that that Roger Wright book (11:15) existed; just ordered it! I also like Solodow's "Latin Alive" which discusses all the sound changes that come up in this video and also has some excerpts from Romance languages at various periods. Not much about Alcuin, though; I learned about him here!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

That's right! Another great book.

@oliverrust8993 3 года назад

I'm so glad I found this channel

@polyMATHY_Luke 3 года назад

So glad you’re here!

@AlexFeldstein 4 года назад

Excellent history of the language evolution. One of your best. I learned a lot.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Very kind of you. 😃

@Firebreath56 4 года назад

I definitely prefer the classical pronunciation. The ecclesiastical pronunciation has it's charm, but the idea of hearing Latin spoken almost exactly how it would've been by the Romans themselves is just so cool to me. It also just feels more "correct" to hear it the way it was intended to be spoken. But what do I know? I don't speak a word of Latin! 😀

@truthoverfalsehood__8757 4 года назад

If you believe that Romans spoke anything different to italians in pronounciation/rythm then you are a victim of a hoax. Just like Italians look exactly like ancient romans their language soubds exactly the same because they are 1 people, italians are romans and romans are italians.

@annamcancarini6953 3 года назад

The Ecclesiastical Pronunciation, besides being more similar to Italian, is the Latin we learnt at school in Italy, at the Liceo Classico, for five( looong) years, so it seems to be more prevalent. To us Italians, the so called philological pronunciation sounds really weird and difficult to practice, also because when we were children and the Mass was in Latin, we learnt to say our prayers using te Ecclesiastical Pronunciation. Also in Sacred Music, like Bach High Mass or Mozart Requiem, singers all over the world use of course the E.P.

@M.C.P. 2 года назад

Per me è la pronuncia più armoniosa di tutte, e credo non sia solo per un fatto di abitudine.

@elitefencer777 2 года назад

Genuinely, I believe theories and studies that gave birth to Restored Classical pronunciation owe much of their persuasiveness to how alien it sounds. Asking for directions comes across, phonetically, like a veiled threat. Describing little Gaius' plans for the summer sounds like an edict. Something that sounds so awkward sticks around in the mind like tar.

@Giovis968 2 года назад

Ecclesiastical pronunciation is the best

@GrandeSalvatore96 4 года назад

Totally unrelated, but... that’s a really cool painting above your right shoulder.. great vid altogether 😄

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Thanks! My father is the artist! www.RobertRanieri.com -- also follow him on Instagram :)

@GrandeSalvatore96 4 года назад

polýMATHY Done! And worth it for the photo of you from 1994 🤣

@ObvsCam93 4 года назад

Fascinating stuff, excellent work as always Luke!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Cameron Paul thanks so much!

@giorgiocolleoni5661 4 года назад

Grazie mille Luke. Video prezioso. Come sempre.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Grazie a te, Giorgio!

@Philoglossos 4 года назад

Awesome work! :D

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Grātiās, frātercule! 😃🦂

@helengras7675 11 месяцев назад

This was really interesting and helpful info! Our family is learning Latin this year, and I was stressing about which variation to choose. As Catholics, I wanted our kids to learn the Ecclesiastical pronunciation first, as this will probably be the bulk of their use of the language. However, we planned to use the Minimus curriculum, which I found out is Classical pronunciation. I started to worry that I was doing something wrong no matter which pronunciation style I decided to teach them, but this video definitely makes me feel better. Thanks! Also, SO interesting how the languages evolved. I have never once wondered how the languages branched off from Latin, but I am so glad I know now. Fascinating!

@barbarianjk2355 6 месяцев назад

16:06 I understood everything! Well, I'm Peruvian, and Spanish is my mother language. And that's almost exactly (except for some parts that sounded like dyphthongs) how someone who has no idea about English pronounciation would pronounce them. As a matter of fact, with a friend who also learnt English we usually pronounce English that way between us, as a joke. Other times we translate Spanish phrases into English, but literally, so they sound weird (and sometimes just plain wrong).

@BigNews2021 5 месяцев назад

LOL I'm Colombian, and my sister and I do the same thing. We started doing it when scrolling through the TV and reading the synopsis of programs. We also translate idioms or colloquialisms literally into English, like "for if the flies" or "they have egg" (tienen huevo, meaning they have the gall, or are shameless). For example, when we're shopping for something and they ask a ridiculous high price. Good to know other people do silly stuff like this.

@Gabri.El. 4 года назад

As a non native English speaker I understood most of what you read in English with that weird pronunciation. Back in the day I used to "speak" English like that with my classmates just for fun.. LOL.

@TheZenytram 4 года назад

For me he just sounded like a brazilian who knows nothing of the language reading a english text and trying too hard to pronounce everything 😂😂

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

lol fun!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

@@TheZenytram hahahah

@dionysiapanagou6035 3 года назад

The same we did with my classmates, even now that I am older we are speaking English with my friends that way for fun. It is very common to do this for fun here in Greece because every time we laugh :)

@davideleazar5721 3 года назад

que buen video y muy interesante, Lucas

@AprendeMovimiento 4 года назад

I am a traditional catholic so we learn to pray in ecclesiastical latin, and I was thinking about learning latin, but now that I watched this video I feel that "I MUST" learn latin. Thank you so much!!! Saludos desde Chile!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

Saludos desde USA! 🇨🇱 🇺🇸

@maestrogalindo 3 года назад

This is fantastic! Thank you!

@Thecrazysamurai69 4 года назад

it's interesting how I, a portuguese person, can understand the Scotsman perfectly, eventhough english is not my first language and I don't hear Scottish english... I was gonna say regularly, but I can't even recall the last time I heard a Scot speak xd Irish, Scottish, American and Aussie are quite easy for me to understand. Never heard Welsh, so can't say about that one xd

@Philoglossos 4 года назад

How about these Scottish people: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-le_uNGdpa4c.html 😋

@Thecrazysamurai69 4 года назад

@@Philoglossos uuf, you got me there xd I can understand some parts, but them speaking over eachother doesn't help xd

@4SyriaTruth 4 года назад

Bravissimo! + cosi autentico latino mi semba di essere come Carlo Magno! rivendicato da tutti, appartenente a nessuno... weil Karl der Grosse fränkisch ist, ist er in der Deutsche der Deutschen! ... Mais de coup Charlemagne, il est très très français tu sais... il habitait île barbe à Lyon, il était lyonnais !!

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

haha

@VicoAlessandro2 11 месяцев назад

I'm so glad that there are Latin Speakers still alive 😭 I'm planning to teach my Kids only Latin and let them learn English in School. I was raised up learning Spanish from my family and learned English from School. I from both Languages I have become somewhat fluent in speaking but I could of been better if I cared and my parents would actually care in teaching me.

@StrzelbaStian 3 года назад

This man doesn't merge wine and whine. I don't hear that a lot personally. I like it.

@iberius9937 4 года назад

Beautiful comparison of Latin to an immortal cypress tree...that essential symbol of the Mediterranean, by the way.

@polyMATHY_Luke 4 года назад

I'm glad you like it! Yes, and the cypress was associated with Roman grave yards, which is why it appears in the Horace poem "Vidēs ut altā stet nive candidum..."

@jeupater1429 4 года назад

Cyprus was used to minimize casting shade on crops while allowing complete coverage of a path or trail when planted on both sides of which. This way a farmer could traverse the countryside comfortably without sacrificing yield. It was more than just aesthetic.

@elijahbachrach6579 3 года назад

Can’t help but think how upset English speakers in America would be if somebody said, “language is a tool just like any other, and if you change it or add to it whenever you like, you will blunt it. Use it correctly (uniformly) or it will turn into the useless double speech from 1984.”