Elden Ring - The Malenia Conspiracy 

Because Elden Ring released after Sekiro, it's easy to think about anything from Sekiro being rolled forward into Elden Ring. However, the development of both games actually overlapped, and they've said in interviews that Sekiro didn't necessarily have an opportunity to strongly affect Elden Ring, as Sekiro concluded when Elden Ring was already well on its way. The potential for a complete, or nearly complete Tomoe concept to get started on for DLC, get scrapped, and then get featured in Elden Ring as Malenia doesn't seem to fit cleanly in the development timeline. So, even if there may be some Sekiro DNA in her design, the idea at least that Malenia is "just Tomoe" or even really represents what a Tomoe fight would've been like feels unlikely.

Tomoe is obviously the carthus sandworm because of the lightning

"I am Lady Tomoe, Blade of Takeru. And I have never known DLC."

The truth is, Malenia was actually studying techniques under her distant uncle - Sir Alonne.

Holy shit that detail with the simmilarities between Owl and Sekiro's fighting style goes deep. I thought mikiri and shinobi tools were the only things they had in common, but even the way they attack? This a very cool insight. I understand why Miyazaki says Owl is his favourite boss fight in the game.

Lack of Sekiro DLC has never stopped making me sad.

Until that clip at 2:51 I never noticed that Malenia changes her sword length mid attack by sliding the sword to a different position in her hand. That's a cool detail.

It think people compare them because Waterfowl Dance bears a striking resemblance to Spiral Cloud Passage visually, a combat art of Tomoe

I like this version of Kakariko Village. It sounds like it's being played by Mist Noble.

Seeing as Elden Ring and Sekiro were in development around the same time, and Malenia as a character was clearly fully conceived by the time Sekiro came out (as evidenced by the 2019 trailer), I think it's likely that during this time Miyazaki just liked the idea of a "dancing swordswoman" archetype, as seen with the okami women in Fountainhead Palace, descriptions of Tomoe in dialogue, and of course Malenia herself. The juxtaposition of someone that posseses a striking elegance and refinement while still being able to kick your ass harder than anyone else is absolutely in line with the kinds of characters Miyazaki likes to make

I always thought that Malenia's "flowing" style was related to the blind swordman, her mentor who taught her how to fight her curse by using a flowing style that kept her in constant motion in contrast to the "stillness" of rot. If the master-student relation is also valid for Elden Ring, then it would make sense to not find those kind of animations in Sekiro since they came from another unseen character from Elden Ring's lore.

While I don't think a lack of lightning necessarily means much, given the Tree Spirits different elements, the lack of similar animations is pretty convincing. A "vague Sekiro inspiration" rather than ported over assets seems most likely, especially since being the game's poster girl would have gotten her a lot of care and attention in design.

I've never been more satisfied with a several minute video that basically just says ''probably not but I have no idea''

i always thought that one thrust attack she does would make for a perfect mikiri counter.

I think you should make a separate video showing similarities in the way Teacher/Student fight in Sekiro as there are way more than people realize. I can give a few examples that i know of. 1.Owl father throwing a shuriken then dashing and hitting Sekiro is like Chasing Slice ability Sekiro can Unlock, Whirlwind Slash is used by Inner Father and also Mist Raven, Owl father can use Shadowfall like Sekiro can. 2.Emma Dashes like Ishin and Input Reads Heals into an attack similar to Ishin and there are many other similarities. 3.Floating Passage is also used by enemies in Fountainhead Palace and they also use Bow like Genichiro. 4.Different enemies in Sekiro can use Ashina Cross. Ichimonji, High Monk, Praying Strikes, and Ninjatar Slash.

2:50 I absolutely need to point out how insane Malenia's animations are. Pay attention to her sword arm during her flurry technique here. From could have easily just made her attack faster while holding her sword toward the grip like always, but they made her shift her hand position further up the blade so she can swing faster. And then for the last stroke in the combo she slides her hand back to the grip position and you can HEAR the sound of metal on metal as her golden prosthetic moves across the sword. And there are sparks! They did NOT have to do this yet they did. This is why we all spend so much time outside of these games pouring over everything. From's attention to detail is just crazy.

Interesting, I think this rumour is so easily spread because Malenia just felt like a character you would fight in Sekiro. I’m surprised nobody has gotten Miyazaki to confirm or deny anything about this yet.

Def used the notes and bones (Great warrior woman protecting a divine childlike being out of devotion) but over and above that they seemed to create Malenia from her own lore both in design and in fighting style. Love this approach to game design

I think a detail that added more fuel to this rumor might be that the unused version of Waterfowl Dance (the one shown at 0:44) is really similar to the Floating Passage and Spiral Cloud Passage combat arts in Sekiro, which Genichiro uses.

More likely, we've seen Tomeo's moves in Inner Genichiro. The Sakura Dance, the varied transitions into Floating Passage, the double reverse... these are exactly what you'd imagine in a boss who has that style but better.

The ‘never confirmed to begin with’ part at 3:56 with the reflection in the water? Brilliant

For me it’s also always been the name of the move. “Waterfowl dance” sounds exactly like a name that would come from someone who was from the fountainhead palace

I'm kinda glad to see this idea being challenged a little bit. It's such a pervasive idea, yet it has very little basis of support to go on. I've seen people swear by this idea as part of their criticism of the boss's presence in Elden Ring, and while there certainly are things to criticize about the implementation of some of her mechanics, I think the Sekiro idea is largely a red herring. There's no evidence of it and it also doesn't matter. This isn't to say it would be unremarkable or uninteresting if the idea was true; it certainly would be both intriguing and noteworthy if it was. It's just that it doesn't really matter either way. Edit: many people in these comments are bringing up how modders have brought Malenia into Sekiro, claiming she "feels" right at home. They fail to consider how much had to change in order for Malenia in Sekiro to even function. Her waterfowl has to drop the aoe phantom slashes, she has to lose her heal-on-hit mechanic (or it must be redesigned), and she must be given perilous attacks which either can't be blocked/parried or must be jumped. None of these fundamental things are true of Malenia in Elden RIng, and these design principles are essential to the design as a whole. These aren't just things that get tacked on. Just because you think a modded version of her "feels" right in Sekiro doesn't make the mod evidence for Malenia originally being a Sekiro boss. There's literally nothing to this idea at all. It's pure vibes and nothing else.

I'm still mildly curious about the harpy and bat enemies in elden ring. There's one bat in particular, up in the mountaintops near where you complete the jellyfish questline, which has an interesting pattern on its wings. It has Eye Spots, a kind of intimidation style camoflauge commonly found on butterflies to make birds think twice about eating them. It's the only bat I've found that has this. It suggests that they evolved that pattern to ward off the big raven enemies in the area, but since there's only one of them, it either didn't work, or isn't an evolutionary trait- perhaps it's paint.

Another some other interesting points to bring up such as the shadow clones Okami we’re said to be ghostly, and True Monk (while not a biological Okami) is infamous for making ghostly shadow clones Malenia also makes Shadow clones Then Malenia has a deflect animation, something no other character in Elden Ring has And then there’s the Okami to consider as possibly reflecting Malenia’s fighting style. Okami fight in a dance-like manner and so does Malenia, with even Spiral Cloud passage looking eerily similar to Waterfowl There’s also more similarities that Malenia has to Tomoe and Sekiro that were glossed over but they’re still notable. Both serve young lords and spread rot wherever they go.

0:28 - diference between 5'11 to 6 foot.

I really liked how you demonstrated the similar animations of all the characters in sekiro, clean as hell also this might be the best thumbnail/title combo you've ever done

One of my fav vids ever by you. So much stuff I didn't know about/didn't realize crammed together. Thank you!

regardless of whether there is a connection between Malenia and Tomoe, this video raises an interesting question about similarities in movesets between student/master pairs. In Elden Ring, we know Malenia learned her sword skills from a legendary blind swordsman. If we ever see him in-game, I wonder if From will carry over this trope from Sekiro

@2:46 Oops, Sekiro got a blade to the face there; what a wonderful father, amirite?

zullie your videos bring me so much joy thank you

Fromsoftware fans when the developers make a loose end that is not explained anywhere: "NO it must have been cut content, they wanted to use it in a DLC"

On the subject of masters, I do hope we meet the blind swordsman who taught Malenia in the DLC

I think this is also a pet theory of a lot of people because Waterfowl Dance *feels* like a combo chain that you would be expected to parry in Sekiro. That attack feels incongruous with the rest of Elden Ring since there aren't a lot of ways to punish it until she's done. Add to that the instant grab stab she does that does a truck load of damage and can one shot a character butttt if you were Sekiro, you'd just revive after being killed.

Zullie, this is amazing!! Ive often pondered if there is a connection that is beyond thematic there.

I wonder if Activision being the international publisher may have resulted in there being less cut content clues in the game files? With Dark Souls and Elden Ring being more of a solo operation I imagine FromSoft didn't mind leaving some old references to unused content here and there, since they know only themselves and any plucky dataminers will ever see it. Whereas with Sekiro being given to Activision for publishing and possibly some other things like localization and other minor tweaks, maybe FromSoft feared leaving too many unused assets would create a lot of back-and-forth about what was necessary to be included? Also considering Elden Ring was likely well underway by then, they may have thought it best not to leave anything in Sekiro that could give hints to what was upcoming in the event of data leaks, or when the trailer for Elden Ring dropped. Just a thought though. Great video as always Zullie!

I want to point out someone made a Mod that ported her into Sakiro, it was fantastic to watch

Unrelated, very much unrelated, but Bloodborne had this horseman enemy with a peg leg that was cut from the final game (some call it the Nameless Cainhurst Knight) and to me it looks very similar to both the commanders and the banished knights' armors in Elden Ring, it even has a small dragon on its helmet in a similar fashion to the banished knights' one.

this was a particularly fantastic video. loved seeing that insight about sekiro, what a wonderful game.

Sekiro is my favorite game ever, or so I say, and in all my playthroughs and all the lore videos I've seen I've never noticed or was told about the student/teacher style parallel. Feels amazing to learn something new about Sekiro, and to be surprised by the depth and ingenuity of your analysis even after all this time.

you always pick my favorite tracks from botw ❤

2:40 I knew Owl taught Sekiro everything he does like with whirlwind slash, shadowrush, mikiri counter etc, but I never realized they do the exact same combo string lol.

Seeing Ishin and Emma and Owl and Wolf with the same stances is sick. That wolf vs malenia looked epic too

2:25 omg isshin and his adopted grandkids practicing ichimonji is adorable

thank you for this!!!!

While Genichiro doesn't appear to resemble Malenia's fighting style I do find it interesting to see the similarities in Isshin and Emma's stances to Malenia here at 2:15, it makes me wonder if there are any shared animations or overlaps in ideas there, not to mention old Isshin's area of effect blade flurries in phase 2.

This is so cool I think honestly my favorite part was comparing sekiros characters to each other. I’d love a more in depth break down on that (if there’s more to be seen of course). I always knew they used the same big flashy things like combat arts or owls shinobi tools but seeing how owl even mirrors wolfs light attack string is so sick. I also just love seeing any appreciation for sekiro in 2024 I adore that game. Great video as always, really impressive use of mod tools.

Thank you Zullie for your videos, greatly appreciated :)

Thematically I always saw Malenia as more of a culmination of the different games Fromsoft has made in the series. It's not a big leap to see inspiration from sekiro, bloodborne, and souls in her design. From her prosthetic limb that's low key a trick weapon, to the designs around her armor and themes of decay, rebirth, and transformation. She also emulates some of the more iconic entities, as i recall people immediately making Lady Maria comparisons. I personally was reminded of Orenstein in her color palette and fighting style when first encountering her. Can't say for certain if this is intentional or not, but it's how I read the design of her character.

I think that fromsoft have a bit of a history bringing a boss in the style of their previous game into their current project. Sister Friede, Demon of Hatred and now Malenia are each bosses that would seem right at home in a previous title.

This is my new favorite video of yours! I loved seeing the master-student similarities in movement in Sekiro. While I've never bought the idea that Malenia was partly built from unused Tomoe assets, I'd be surprised if there was no conceptual inspiration there. Malenia does have that flowing, floating style. I believe that Genichiro tends to force everything more than Tomoe would have because of his personality and motivations. He has a very driven "at any costs" mindset and I think FromSoft showed that perfectly in the way he moves and attacks... even his version of Floating Passage is very muscular and forceful. You can almost feel him gritting his teeth on the last couple hits. Conversely, Tomoe is described as being like a dancer, probably indicating a grace and smoothness to her style. Terms like "Floating Passage" certainly bring to mind the way that Malenia moves and attacks... nothing is forced or muscled, it simply flows. While Genichiro was her actual student, I believe Malenia is a better glimpse into the concept of Tomoe, and a partial vision of what her style may have been like.

Wow.. That was dense. Great vid!

tome's animations/assets have not been used in elden ring, so we are going to get the dlc for sekiro, thanks

That stupid kick she has is absolutely a Sekiro move, first time I fought her I instantly saw that xD and waterfowl reminds me of those water art slashes you can learn from Carps in sekiro xD

Really neat how the search for cut Sekiro content lead to amazing Sekiro details right under our noses. Something poetic about that.

I don't know why, but the lightning being audible at the end is really satisfying

I was under the impression that the body Sekiro prays to before the Divine Dragon fight was Tomoe, but i could be wrong

Friede was accused of being a Bloodborne boss in Dark Souls. Malenia is accused of being a Sekiro boss. The skill issue continues.

Love how Emma's left hand moves after her Ichimonji, never noticed that before

It's a fine line between insane and genius. Great vid.

now I want to fight Malenia in Sekiro. Imagine parrying that waterfowl dance~

Will you cover the giant sky temple ruins in limgrave? Read the ruin fragment description. Try to see if you can take the models out of the ground and put them together. I sadly cannot but I'm sure you can. :)

NO WAY YOU HAVE A CHANNEL DUDE? I did your chalice dungeon on bloodborne and got a Great one Blood echo earlier today!!! Lol

Kakariko Village Night Theme? One of my favorite OST's ever!

I think at the very least, Tomoe's concept, of a brilliant swordswoman, and her deep affection towards her young "master", carried onto ER's Malenia and Miquella.

Completely missed out on the part on how Malenia's cut waterfowl has the same hopping movement as the Okami in Fountainhead Palace where Tomoe resided.

I don’t know if it’s harder than the normal stuff you do for every video, but comparing dozens of animations between games to see if Malenia’s matched up sounds very tedious. Thanks as always for doing the work Zullie.

though I can't comment on the tomoe/malenia connection, I believe someone modded over the Sekiro combat and fought Malenia with it, and it felt like a Sekiro boss unlike most/all other Elden Ring bosses, IIRC? That connection is still worth researching in its own right, I'd imagine.

I think Malenia definitely has the same kick animation as the interior ministry shadows though

Would have been interesting to see Malenia's moves compared to the Okami, seeing how Tomoe was an Okami herself. I always thought part of the conspiracy stemmed from how the proto-waterfowl dance has her moving similar to the Okami warriors, doing these gentle little hops on one foot, spinning around and having this overall "floaty" feel to it. And of course, how the final waterfowl dance resembles Spiral Cloud Passage, which was probably Tomoe's technique.

This just proves to me that those people coping that malenia was never meant to be a elden ring boss are wrong and that they just hate the idea that they can't beat her

imagine being a goty but not getting a dlc, while your brother also being a GOTY and gets a DLC

While I see the similarities and where some of her moveset could be countered with Sekiro’s mobility mechanics, a lot of that could be said about even Dark Souls 3 bosses. Its the same with people saying Demon of Hatred is a Dark Souls boss but then touting Guardian Ape as one of Sekiro’s peaks. Its bizarre and doesn’t seem to get that across the Bloodborne, Sekiro, Souls, and Elden Ring, Fromsoftware have a pretty consistent language in regards to communicating motifs in combat and creating responsive and engaging encounters, even if the games have differences to their gameplay. Even if you don’t like Waterfowl or her fight, Malenia clearly had her model, lore, animations and fight made for this game. She wasn’t a last minute asset rip slapped together with a new model to increase the roster of bosses last minute, and therefore was developed with the combat of Elden Ring in mind. Wether you believe that she’s overtuned or that her breaking of certain rules is unfair is another matter. What is more likely than asset repurpose is that the dev team took inspiration from Sekiro’s visual design as the two games’s development cycles almost overlapped. Miyazaki has stated before that he enjoys putting bits of Japanese culture in the normally aesthetically western games Fromsoftware creates and with Sekiro they dove deeper into the Japanese aesthetic. When applying that same cultural inspiration to Elden Ring, they also might imported the same visual language Sekiro used to convey parts Japanese culture like swordsmanship, therefore creating a Japan-inspired boss that has a similar visual language to her attacks as the bosses of Sekiro.

I'm so scared of her

Kakariko village music goes hard

Her waterfowl dance is cloud passage + one mind after slash. They probably didn't port anything, but they must have had a draft of a boss for the dlc, which they abandoned and reworked it to be malenia.

The waterfowl dance always reminded me of Genichiro's flurry attack

One aspect that wasn't talked about in this video is Malenias waterfowl dance vs Tomoes spiral cloud passage. They are visually very similar, down to the vfx

Zullie! You forgot the most crucial thing! Her Waterfowl Dance is based off of the Spiral Cloud Passage skill in Sekrio.

I'd say the closest is that unused Waterfowl Dance, which looks like Genichiro's floaty combo attack

Think this theory rose from the spiral cloud passage skill from Sekiro feeling conceptually very similar to Malenia's waterfowl moves, along with her unused waterfowl feeling more... oriental? If that's the right word. Personally more than anything else, when I fight Malenia the flow of the fight feels like I'd have much better time playing as Wolf than my Elden Ring character. Waterfowl feels like it was meant to be parried like you do Genichiro's cloud passage, which is what gave/gives me the impression her moveset finds it origins in Sekiro.

Sekiro is my first souls-esque. I really love this a lot.

It is interesting to consider in this discussion, people have ported Malenia back to Sekiro and she works extremely well as a boss in that game. Her attacks all have that tell tale rhythm of Sekiro and waterfowl dance in particular seems almost made for it.

Most of the people saying she was meant for Sekiro weren't good enough at fighting her to learn her moveset; if you actually get the timings right, it becomes really obvious that she would be way too slow for sekiro and wouldn't mechanically fit well in the game's combat system

Poor Sekiro Fans Lacking a PROPER DLC, I get the malenia conspiracy Her Clear Swipes and relentless attacks for parrying the long Thrust for mikiri counters The Waterfow Dance being literaly just Spiral Cloud Passage The Kick To Break Posture it's All Perfect

Well, think about that: Tomoe boss using both mortal blades at the same time and slashing everything on her sight, just like malenia's quick sword swings, with that marvelous visual effects from the mortal blades, just like light sabers. I hope that one day we can experience that since, despite not having a dlc, we indeed have skilled modders on the community.

I was hoping you could bring up the curved swords' moveset as it is presumed to be Malenia's mentor's fight style. And the fact that they're not really the same as her unique katana moveset even though they're also master and student.

Maybe Malenia just went to Raya Lucaria to respec her character from archer to sword fighter.

I imagine this theory was started as a weird cope because surely Malenia couldn't be intended to be as hard as she is otherwise. Kind of like the "Miyazaki forgot to enable torrent for Elden Beast" theory.

For a split second I thought the song from the background was from the old mini ninjas game on ps3. Brought me so far back holy moly

Awesome details about Sekiro

We're talking about my Lady ? *Excited Finlay noises*

also, while malenia is very fast and aggressive, if you try to fight her using sekiro's mechanics, she's actually a lot easier than most sekiro bosses

I'm surprised you didn't mention the parallel between Waterfoul Dance and Sakura Dance, what I beleave to be what started the whole conspiracy in the first place

I think people get fixated on side characters in From games way too easily. Velka, Tomoe, the Gloam Eyed Queen, probably more. Its like focusing on the hole instead of the donut.

If malenia isn’t built out of unused parts of sekiro that makes her being the way she is even more infuriating

While Malenia doesn't share animations with Genichiro, I do believe the Water Fowl Dance fit the thematic of what we know of Tomoe. If I recall correctly, she's said to be from the Divine Palace, and the Okami use a very "flowy" fighting style where they float above the ground. Also Isshin mentions that Tomoe's style was beautiful and gracious, and that she was also performing in front of young Emma dancing with her sword. All of this fit the Water Fowl Dance. Floating above the ground, gracious and the "Dance" aspect. So my theory is that Water Fowl Dance could have been imagined first for a Tomoe bossfight, and then repurposed for Malenia in Elden Ring. The rest of her kit actually fit in an Elden Ring boss design, but the Water Fowl Dance doesn't and feel more like a Sekiro move than the rest of her moveset.

People are still complaining to this day about how malenia isn't an elden ring fight but a sekiro fight.

I'd just like to mention that if you attack Malenia when she doesn't have any hyper-armour, she folds over in pain very similarly to most enemies and human bosses in Sekiro.

I think just like how the demon of hatred was created as an homage to manus from dark souls 1 and plays exactly like a dark souls boss, requiring mostly dodging and timing for attacks instead of parrying and breaking his guard, Malenia is also an homage to sekiro bosses without the parrying. Both are the hardest bosses in their respective games and both are homages to other games.