Comparison of points. Old hornby dead frog point s have loads of non conducting plastic frog. Newer Peco dead frog or 'insulfrog' have very little plastic - rails go almost all the way to the point of the frog.
Very informative indeed!! I've been a model railroader for over 30 years, just now breaking into DCC, and in ALL that time, I never fully understood the differences and-or benefits of Insulfrog vs Electrofrog! I've always used Peco, regardless of what is available here in the States.... They're just more reliable than anything else here. Love the spring-loaded points as well! Thank you for the valuable information!! Well done!!!
Thank you for your succinct discussion of electro verses insul type switch points. I have insulation types switches and they work perfectly fine with my cab control dc sysytem.
I am glad it was useful. I get lots of help from other modellers and humbly offer my views occasionally. As you say the comments and responses add great insight. There is also a video by a guy who has filed down the rails at the frog and added some Araldite to prevent DCC engines suffering from momentary shorts on insulfrog points making them as reliable as electrofrog and easier to wire and control (no additional switching required).
Many many thanks for this excellent video John. The tip regarding flatness of points, and potentially not pinning them down has just enabled me to resolve a point which gave problems with a class 08 but none of my other stock. My class 08 now crawls through the point without stalling. So glad I found this video before I ballasted! Andy
Thankyou for this explanation, I am in the process of building my first layout, (DC) and was reading conflicting opinions of the type of points to use. As my layout is only very simple I will now go down the insulfrog route. Regards Ian
Great video John. You have convinced me to stick with insulfrog for my new layout. I also think your point about nailing down points was the reason I had trouble with 2 sets of points on the old layout. Cleaned everything to within an inch of its life but locos would still stall and restart (running DCC). It is apparent now that they just weren't flat enough. Thanks
+Bears Trains Hi bears. Thank you for your comment and feedback. I am now using electrofrog points and switching the frog. But you hit upon the main thing - evenness so that the wheels are in contact with the track. Most locos have pickup from multiple wheel pairs and so will span the dead section of a point. Those peco insulfrog points have rail right up to the nose of the frog and that could be a problem if the rails get shorted.
Hi Ian, for a DC layout the Peco insulfrog points are very good as they simplify wiring and can be used to isolate a siding or passing loop. Many of my friends would recommend electrofrog if starting a DCC layout from scratch, but anyone will still have problems with slow running if the point is not absolutely flat. John
I have only recently started making a layout with a friend. We are using DCC and were experiencing problems with short circuiting on a Peco 3 way point. We were advised that a frog juicer would solve our problems and it most certainly has. I cannot recommend it too highly. Just thought it might be worth considering if your problems persist.
@pacbelt Thank you. My layout is quite old. After reading a lot about DCC I was contemplating digging up all the 'dead frog' points/swithces. But my points are Peco. I tried it with DCC and they worked fine, Biggest risk is flanges shorting close rail proximity at the frog. Changing the switches/points would have risked unevenness - a big issue with fixed wheel 0-4-0 shunters/switchers which move slowly.
The shallower the angle of the frog, the longer the gap will be, and the more likely you will need an electrofrog turnout. It is not necessary to cut a gap - just use insulating fishplates at the track joint.
Great video - I agree with you 100% - I've used insulfrog points everywhere on my layout, and I have no problems at all with modern locos. I do have problems with older locos that don't have all wheel pickup, but I intend to convert them to add more pick ups. I just couldn't be doing with the headache of switching the frog polarity for electrofrogs, and I get annoyed with a lot of enthusiasts who dismiss insulfrog as pointless and outdated. I don't really enjoy clambering under the boards and spending hours soldering DPDT switches, I just want to run trains, and I'm sure there are lots more people like me! Anyway, great vid again - thanks for posting.
Yes, it dispels some myths about insulfrog. Some old Hornby or Walters points had huge gaps of non conducting rail and would be more likely to cause problems.
@JamesBondsSkyline I fully agree, peco work very well for me. The long radius points (electroforg and insulfrog) have an even greater gap between the frog nose and the switch rail. Shorting caused by the wheels (tyres) touching both sides of the insulfrog is a problem with DCC as the system cuts out. DC doesn't notice the short.
Hi, thanks for that comment. Hopefully it will help newcommers. I spent years not understanding the problem with points and am still learning. We are currently operating a DCC shunting layout which uses Peco medium radius insulfrog points (dead frog) with no problem. The older Hornby points had too much plastic frog and would cause problems - but we don't use them.
A good point Carl. When I made this video I just plugged the DCC controller in place of the analogue one. I have since added more droppers. I have blown DCC chips but can't see how a short could do it. A spike from a momentary break might, a high current drain (or short) inside the loco or motor (perhaps during a stall) might overcome the current limit function that was designed to protect chips. A short on the track would shut down the DCC controller but take current away from the chip.
I would first check between the frog and the check rail to see if there is a piece of ballast. Then check the back to back distance of the wheels - I often need to adjust mine on a new loco. As it is a new loco the flanges will not be too big. Then look at how flat/level the track is through the crossover and whether the point blade is tight against the rail. Sometimes one wheel will 'derail' at a kink or join but not come off until the point. Hope that helps.
Very informative video. I'm so confused about all the discussions about insulfrog and electrofrog points especially due to the people who give tips for different modifications of the electrofrog points.
Yes Norbert. Insulfrog points are easier to install. Electrofrog points require frog polarity switching. Peco insulfrog points have very little 'dead metal'!
@JBofBrisbane Yes, but see how close the metal of insulfrog gets to the nose of the frog. The main gap is from frog nose to switch rail - it is there in electrofrog as well. So there are lots of people installing electrofrog to overcome a problem in the point. Try dragging the 0-4-0 with two wheel lifted and it will stop on electrofrog just as on insulfrog. Older Hornby points are poor anyway. Large radius points are to be preferred.
Insulfrog or dead frog simplifies track layout as no insulating rail joiners are needed and no frog polarity switch is needed. Also the point can be used to switch power to the siding. However, for DCC the wheels could short and trip the controller. Some have filed down the rails ends at the frog - effectively increasing the area of no pickup!
@practice264 - If you ever run Bachmann Tracksters or Gandy Dancers (only one axle picking up and returning), you will need electrofrog. If you don't, and all your models are picking up from as many wheels as possible, I take your point that a good insulfrog turnout like Peco will probably suffice.
On my quick video about DCC and DC (analogue) on the same layout I have a switch which provides power via multiple droppers (feeds) to many parts of the track, loops and sidings. This ensures that DCC sound locks always have power. Opening the switch allows me to use points for sectioning (isolation) with analogue DC.
Hi, That could be due to dirt on the wheels or the track. The sparks will also 'burn' any dirt onto the wheels making things even worse so sparks need to be avoided. Check that everything is even and flat after cleaning, see if the loco rocks as you slide it slowly over the turnout or crossing. Let us all know if you find out what is causing the sparks. John
It should be noted that electrically, there is absolutely no difference between DC and DCC for track wiring. If your current insulfrog points work well for DC, then it will work fine for DCC with no changes whatsoever. Having said that, DCC can be somewhat intolerant to shorts with a blown DCC chip being the worst case. As stated elsewhere, ensure the point is installed dead-flat.
I did reply earlier RML but it got lost. The use of more pickups is a good idea. The plugs and socket I have seen are too fidley and the wires break easily. OK for permanently coupled stock - eg tender and loco, or even trains stored in a cassette. If you have some plugs that work it would be great. The small coax ones used inside mobile phones and laptops are close to prototype. It was a rainy day... in a shed! I fancy the 747 garage door though!
@JamesBondsSkyline Hi, this could well be poor contact between the switch rail and power source. Use a meter or simple diode track tester to see if you have power. I find pulling on the point tie rod to increase the contact helps identify if this is a problem. Or get an 0-4-0 loco and drag it across the point with one pair of wheels lifted - see where it stops running.
@practice264 we ended up cutting more depth into the insulfrog where the wheel went through and pratically works a lot better now, even with a 0-6-0. But for DCC you are so much better going for the peco points rather than for Hornby set track
If you are installing new points or switches then it could be better to use electrofrog. As I say elsewhere that is what we are using on our new DCC exhibition layout.
Interesting video. I will stay with my more simple insulfrog as you suggest. My locos have no real issues except for my tiny wheel-base Sentinels running really slowly but I have solved that with a powered wagon behind anyway. They can go stupidly slow now and keep moving. Insulfrog is nice and simple. I like them. As you say less points of failure (pardon the pun). And I paint my plastic black parts with silver paint so they look right. Cheers, Laurie
+Calvertfilm Hi Calvert. That powered truck idea is very useful. It would solve a lot of problems. We are using all electrofrog points on the new layout down at the club. It will be DCC.
+Calvertfilm That is also a great idea, I must get round to a bit of track weathering on all my newer track. Painting the check rails would help as well.
+John Mellor I'm not sure why more people don't paint those areas. It tends to stay on quite well, and if it does come off (track rubber use for e.g.) I just use one of those silver paint pens to simply restore it. Done in a jiffy.
With today's miniature plugs and sockets together with tender pick-ups it isn't too difficult to get power through to coaching stock if semi-coupled. this also improves the surface area of pick-up. Just a thought. By the way, I think you have a Boeing 747 on your drive! LOL.
All my trains have pickups on all wheels, pretty much bought in the last year and they will stop constantly on Hornby points insulfrog!! We have tried laying flat and every concievable advice given to no avail. My next layout will be using peco electrofrog points
Thank you for this very informative video. Providing the point is well laid, even by using a round headed screw to the base to apply slight tension to the frog area, prior to ballasting, the dead frog is not for me a problem. The snag with the electro frog can be if coarser wheel sets are being used, which foul the inside of the sprung movable blade. Even some of the new Hornby wheel standards cause kick backs on live frogs. Our hobby is not an exact science. Wheel & axle side movement to accommodate sharp curves means that compromise's are constantly an issue for us to cope with. My railway electrics is common return cab, with each section fed by stack -jack plugs rather than switches. It means that we can easily set up routes. which then can be swapped to another controller. Manufacturers like Bachmann must improve quality control on the phosphor bronze pick-ups which are not tensioned correctly & fail to remain in contact with the wheels, particularly with axle side-play. I refused to buy two new 4Fs, new in the shop for this reason, as re-tensioning properly needs dismantle & re-assembly. Have you any tips on this John?
Hi Philip, some great comments and helpful ideas. I like the idea of jack plugs for section control, especially the ability to swap controllers. Like you I have found that pickups may not be in contact with wheels if they have axle side play. It is tricky bending them - pulling them away while pressing them towards the wheel. Thus bending the latter half or quarter of the pickup. It requires two probes - but we shouldn't have to do that on new stock. Equally we shouldn't have to adjust the wheels to the correct gauge.
I have just started back in to model railways most of my points are Hornby insulfrog and I was bought some gaugemaster point PM1 with a polarity switch can and how do you wire them up for dcc as I was on analogue
As a starting point you do not need to do anything other than wire up the tracks. With analogue you need to add insulating rail joiners or use the point direction to isolate a section or siding. Your insulfrog point will isolate the route that is not set, depending on what is at the other end of that section. For DCC you can wire up all the tracks with frequent droppers or connections so that they are all live all the time. I still use sections with DCC for purposes of fault-finding. You need polarity switches with electrofrog points and insulating rail joiners on the rails connected to the frog. Return to this question when or if you go for electrofrog points.
If a point starts to give problems or I need a new point I will probably use 'live frog' with a switch on the point motor for polarity changing of the frog.
Hi Jefferson. If you are starting out in DCC buy electro-frog points and use slow motion switches with built in polarity change. If you have already built a layout using insulfrog do not fret. The majority of your DCC chipped locos will have multiple wheel pickup and will run over the insulation fine. If not, check the flatness of the point and wheels. It the loco rocks or starts when you apply gentle pressure on top of it then that is the problem. I hope that helps. John
@@TheWaveydee Well it's the motor really Jefferson. Instead of a solenoid, the point is thrown by a slow-motion motor. Google 'slow motion point motors' to find a few suppliers. DCC Concepts are good and probably have a USA outlet. John
I am keeping with DCC but have a mix of elctro and insul frog points and basically it is a confusing setup. I would like to have power to all sidings for DCC lights in loco's and carriages to be on. So if I redo the layout entirely with insulfrog points would it be a straight forward matter of supplying live power to the sidings?
Put in lots of droppers from the track to your power bus. Use electrofrog if starting from scratch. A lot of point machines for DCC have connections to supply power to the frog just remember where to put the insulation gaps
Great video. Can you help? I have an N gauge layout. Why does my locos stall on a particular set of points, over the frog? Ive tried everything but cannot seem to cure it. All other points work OK. Track and wheels are clean. Very frustrating.
when the loco stalls see if you can rock it. That might suggest an uneven point. otherwise check with a meter that all the sections of track are live. ..The fish plates that connect the moving part of the point. .blade .or a wire under the point. ..or can be corrected with a bridging wire above board. good luck.
+John Mellor Thanks for your reply John. I will have a go. If it comes to it I may just replace the point. Bridging wire, is it just a case of soldering on a piece of wire to bridge the frog?
+Edward Pearce Yes Edward. We have replaced a couple of points on our N gauge layout. It is important to get them flat. even harder when doing a replacement. There are a couple of crossed wires under the point and we have made repairs by soldering bridging wire. ..sometimes drilling a small hole. I may try and do a video on Tuesday.
Thanks John, I took the point out. Found a white wire at the front of the frog which had become unsoldered. Not sure were this came detached from but it definately was not connected. Going to replace the point when I find out what make it is. From what I can see it is an electrofrog one. No insulating plastic on the frog, which begs the question, could I replace it with an insulfrog set? Btw I am DCC
+Edward Pearce well done Edward. you have found the problem. stick with electrofrog for all n gauge points. The wires cross over underneath and are usually spot welded but can be repaired with solder.
