Emotional Rollercoaster!...Norma "Original" 10MM Ammo Ballistic Gel Test! 

Testing 40yr old 10mm ammo, is something you'll probably never see anywhere else people

I love to geek out over old ammo and the boxes they came in.

I remember shooting those when I got the Colt Delta Elite back in 1987. It did throw the brass a lot further than expected, as well as everyone else on the range asking what I was shooting. Nice trip down memory lane just seeing those boxes.

Wow. The JHP had the wound tract of a hardcast. Not good. News Update: Spoke with my wife this evening. We do some cycling in areas that have mountain lion and bear. I have been carrying a 9mm, but explained the benefits of the 10mm to her. Also explained that my G20 is too large to take on our bikes, and carefully explained how the smaller G29 would do the trick. She said that she trusts my judgement, so I will be heading to the gun store on Tuesday for a G29. Man, I have a GREAT wife!!!!

Those old hollow point bullets got clogged up with clothing pretty easy. It would have been interesting to see what kind of expansion you would have gotten with just bare gel.

Great test! 10mm weeding out the limp wrists since 1983!

Miss my COLT DELTA ELETE got it back in 1990 and ran lots of 10mm Loads and had my dad get all my Brass Reloaded from a southern guy at work that new what he was doing and those full power loads would make that Colt kick like a MULE

I always heard that the old norma projectiles were bad i also heard that they did skimp on powder on fmj because it wasnt for duty or protection use. That could explain the weak performance of the 200 fmj.

Man, I’m telling you that OG 200 Grainer is a beautiful bear protection gun for grizzly. They just have to be used for the right purpose.

This quickly became well known back in the day : The OG Norma was plenty fast . The 170 gr HP had little to no expansion . The W-W 175 Silvertip quickly became the old days Gold Standard .

$11.95 price tag on those rounds 😮. The Good old days 😊

Jeff Cooper's original specification for the 10mm was a 200 grain FMJ fired from a 5" barrel maintaining a striking velocity of at least 1,000 feet per second at "all reasonable handgun combat ranges," which he deemed to be 50 meters or less. The 200 grain FMJ out of your 5" 1911 averaged 1048 feet per second at 50 yards with the lowest shot being 1042 feet per second. That gives us an average striking energy at 50 yards of 487 energy foot pounds. It may be falling short of the box specs, but it's absolutely within spec. Even out of the Glock, it has an average V50 of 1029 feet per second with a low of 1023 feet per second and an average Ke50 of 470 energy foot pounds. The 170 grain JHP put up much better numbers, averaging 1159 feet per second out of the 1911 for an average of 506 energy foot pounds at 50 yards. Out of the Glock, it still cooked along with an average V50 of 1135 fps and an average Ke50 of 486 energy foot pounds. Unfortunately, 1980s bullet technology struck and made the 170 grain JHP fail to perform.

I’ve tried a lot of 10mm ammo. Sig Sauer and Fiocchi is pretty consistent full power ammo. That won’t break the bank. Id love to see you test the Black Hills Gold 10mm Honey Badger ammo out! Love your videos!

A very informative test that should be an eye-opener about the ideas pertaining to the old original loadings. The results with the hollow points were not surprising to me. I still remember back when hollow point autoloading handgun bullets started appearing on the scene and it’s obvious to me that ammunition manufacturers learned a lot over time. As you point out, this 170 grain HP doesn’t have any of the features of modern bullets, and I suspect that at the time it was made the companies just said, “You want a hollow point? Okay, here’s a bullet with a hollow point,” and no real idea how to make sure they would perform. Thanks to you and the one who sent you the ammo for us all to see the results.

Strange comments from the bots, lol. I have lots of 25 plus year old reloads. They still go bang when requested to.

I had a 5 boxes of that 170 back in the day. There was a magazine writer who hunted hogs with them and their performance in hogs was impressive, blowing huge exit holes. It's been so long I can't remember what magazine or writer it was though. I bought it bunch based on that article.

I didn't know today was Christmas! I love your 10mm vids

Awesome ! To think that Underwood used to make something pretty comparable to the 170 grain.

This is a powerful display of modern bullet design and engineering over the past 40 years

Got the notification, got excited. Seen the performance and was disappointed. I do appreciate you using my carry gun of choice, 1911 Government size, in 10 mil.

“Respek on its name” got my wife to come into the man cave like, “wtf did he just say”? 😂

The first 10mm that I ever fired were some of those (200 gr FP) out of one of the first Colt Delta Elites in Atlanta. It woke me up! The Delta Elites did not hold up well...

I'd rather just hand load 10mm to my own desired specifications. Buffalo Bore might be the only brand I like and it's too expensive to buy in bulk. "If you want something done right, do it yourself" jelly time.

How do these sound? Quote from Buffalo Bore developer. When carrying a 10MM for social purposes, I carry two rounds of item 21F up first, followed by the remainder of the magazine being stuffed with item 21G. Over ten years ago, I developed items 21F and 21G for my personal use. They did not have an item # then………..they were designed only for my personal use and I was carrying a Colt Delta Elite for normal social carry, but grew concerned about being slow on my follow-up shots with our full power 10MM ammo. Hence, I designed these TACTICAL 10MM loads for my use and am now offering them to the public for the same very good reason I carried them many years ago.

Great test! Obviously, bullet technology has progressed a lot in the last 40 years... Really, for personal protection, the 40 S&W with good bullets like HST's are about perfect - no need for 10mm velocities. Dangerous game and barrier penetration is another thing.

Remington 165 grain JHP was the GOAT for 10mm back in the day.

I don't like to see you emotional when a 10mm turns out to be a 40 S&W +p. Thats what most 10mm is. Still great video as always thanks! Your the man!

A test of the 9x25 Dillon with a super hot load out of a 8" barrel would be to darn nice to see at some time.

This is reliving history and a real tribute. Love it as always 👍

Great, fun to watch test, even with less than stellar performance out of the Norma. I am in the 5” camp, so nice to see the comparison of the two barrel lengths even though they are close to same length. Great job man!!!

You always provide amazing ballistic reviews! Great job!! Thanks for turning me onto AAC 10mm.🙏🏿🇺🇸🙏🏿🇺🇸

Yes. Another awesome vid! Keep ‘em coming my guy!!

Great review! Now I see how these early Norma cartridges could cause frame cracks in the early Bren Ten's and later 1980's Colt Delta Elites! On their Norma website, no 10 MM Auto cartridges listed....nor 40 S&W....

Hey, they worked for Sonny Crockett.

Love your 10mm videos! Very informative!

Absolutely awesome this is some of the original production stuff when it was a new cartridge,Norma was the first to load It

It’s nice to know we can nowadays get those velocities off the shelf with those same bullet weights , but with better performance. Great test !

You nailed it with the limp-wristed FBI shooters. They then went to the .40 S&W and had the same problem. They dropped down to the 9mm and I'm betting they still have shooters who struggle. It's hilarious the manufacturers are pushing the 10mm in it's watered down versions and trying to convince the shooting world that the .40 S&W is obsolete. They have nearly succeeded in that as some YT channels tell us that as well. Real time shootings with the .40 show they are mistaken. The 9mm is more effective in movies than reality, though it's a great cartridge, you'd better have good shot placement, though that's key with any cartridge.

Had high hopes after the speed of the 170, glad bullet technology has improved in the 41 years since the 10mm was developed. Was cool to see how close the listed speeds stacked up to reality. Thanks for the test Tools!

Love the channel. You really have me considering picking up a 10mm instead of a. 40 SW

Norma Jelly Time. 😎

Thanks for posting.

That has been my experience with that bullet as well - they looked beautifully made, they were accurate and consistent (loaded in 40 cal with vv350), but never expended in any medium I tried (no gel in 1994).

“I’m so tore up and distraught I might even have to call Better Help” 😂 Too funny man Keep up the great work brother

Great content as usual

No surprise to me with 170's. My Colt DE did the same with mid-80's Norma jhp. Bullet tech at the time and being first in line to mfgr.....no comparison to work with. No2, I *did* have occasion to use it on small game (groundhogs) Did. Ok but not regular AFA expansion; some did, some didn't. Accurate as all git out to 100 yd plus, tho. Saving grace is that for most modern uses afield, you'd want that penetration, especially for larger game defense

Interesting ammo test Tools 🇺🇸👊

You cracked me up, i cant wait to see your Better Health ad coming soon!! Was cool to see this old school stuff, but i think i was just as excited to see you were gonna run that new gorgeous 1911 you got for it! Definitely a shame that bullet design was so bad that it didnt perform, but still interesting to see an old round tested. Good as always Tools.

Shows how far bullet technology has come! Crazy that even 1300 fps wouldn't get a hollow point to do its thing. Thanks for the test.

The Norma 200 gr. FMJ was the first 10mm ammo produced for sale. I have an original 20 rd. box also. I will not be firing mine though it is collector ammo now.

Good video and gel test. Thanks for sharing 👍🇺🇸

As usual, great job! Pity about the JHP failing to expand. I wish the other manufacturers would follow Underwood's lead in loading 10mm the way it is supposed to be.

I used this ammo in my SW 1066 back in the day.

Thanks Tools for another great vid. Memory can be a funny and fickle thing. Much like my first date wayyyyyyyyyy back when.

Maybe shoot one 170 in bare gel? As a long time fan of the 10mm from back in the day, disappointing to see this, but glad some contemporary 10mm is exceptional. Hope more companies bring more offerings to the market.

These projectiles were made in a time where expansion was a lot of hit or miss in pistol calibers. Cooper was most concerned with penetration being significantly better than 45 ACP and velocity being high enough to shrink the trajectory from the 45 ACP to something closer to 357 Mag. While this round does penetrate far better than a 45 ACP of the time and does shoot flatter, the expansion is terrible. It may deform somewhat if it hits bone but I don't know that it would expand in flesh.

Disappointed in these 10mm results but thanks for the video! If you'd be interested I'd love to see some 9mm "spoon" rounds tested. It's just an fmj round nose with a small flat sanded/grinded on the bullet tip at a 120° angle. You're only removing about 1 grain of material. This is supposed to induce dramatic tumbling on the round once it hits a soft target. I'd love to see a few of them put into a gel block and see if they actually work.

I predicted exactly this result when you first showed of this ammo. Although i didn't shoot ot in gel i knew what the velocity was going to be. At least on the 200gr load. My old brain recalled the 200 feeling hotter than the 170 back when yhis stuff was new. I guess in our hearts we wanted it to perform well in the gel....but to be perfectly honest the only bullets i recall from the era performing to the standard of today were the old SJHP bullets from Remington in the magnum revolver rounds.

the wound tracks from all 3 look pretty good despite the failure to expand, interesting

Norma does still load 10mm. They have a 155 grain mhp rated at 1308fps. I personally have never shot them but you do see them for sale on psa occasionally. I would love to see them tested but I have low expectations!!

Interesting when you were showing the bullets - the 200 grain had an exposed base and the 170 HP had the nose exposed of course =- but it struck me that they used the exact same type of jacket for both - just reversed.

Thank you for bringing the nostalgia. I'm not surprised by the poor performance of 80s JHP. I think the best JHPs back in the day were the scalloped 357s and the 200gr CCI flying ashtrays in 45 Auto.

I had a delta elite. Need to pic up another. I currently have a F N 510. It's a bad ass handgun. 22 rounds of 10 mm seriously

...MAN!!! I haven't sent those old 20 round Norma boxes on YEARS!!!

Norma was all that was available when I bought my 1st 10mm, miss the hot round. Price got me into reloading though 😎

To bad about the ammo but it sure is cool to see more of that pistol. Really nice to have folks send ammo out for testing!❤❤❤

Silly part is those wound tracks are still better than some 9mm jhp’s that do expand.

The original Norma 170 grain JHP had more than enough velocity, but the bullet was not really designed for expansion. JHP bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's.

The defunct Texas Ammunition 10mm Express should be tested. They made a 200 XTP that was rated over 1300 FPS.

Very good afternoon from Miami, I would like to see a test of Winchester DEFENSE, 180 grain holou point, it feels good in my M&P 10 mm, but would be nice to see a test, thanks a lot.

Damn, seems like you could make a few shallow cuts from hacksaw to those hollow points and have a better bullet design. 10mm has been neglected for decades when it comes to most ammo off the shelf.

And this is why 10mm got a reputation of over penetrating early on. I tested some of this back in the early 90's into water through two layers of tshirt and one layer of sweatshirt material and had the same result - zero expansion.

a 10mm 1911 is my everyday carry loaded with underwood 180grn hollow points and I was wondering have you ever tested underwood ammunition.

Just for grins and chuckles try testing .41 Magnum JHP rounds out of a four-inch barrel compared to current 10mm loadings. Keep in mind that Cooper was looking for a replacement for the .38Spl/.357 Magnum and the hand full of .41 Magnum revolvers utilized by LEOs back then. I'm so old that I recall him saying, in print at least, that the 10mm was superior to the .45ACP. The problem I had with the 10mm, at least in the 1980s and early 1990s, was that there were only two pistols that fit my hand. The Colt's 10mm 1911 version and the "Baby Glock". In fact, my fifty-yard scores were better with the Glock than with the Colt's, and a S&W I tried....And I am anything but a fan of Glock pistols. But then I don't think much of Henry rifles, or their revolver for that matter, either. I'll never own either of those brands as long as I have others to choose from. Great video as usual.

I wonder if the old 175 Winchester silvertip 10mm would be better?

I bet Norma or any big company could make a fortune selling +P or full power range ammo. A lot of people carry that type of stuff & would like to train with it, but it's very hard to find +P or even full power range ammo in about any caliber.

He is a little off in the FBI did not use the Colt delta Elite. They used a S&W 1006 converted to double action only version.

When I saw the velocity I thought that they would have good results, maybe If they had a polymer In the H.P., They may do better, I would do that If It were me, still enjoyed the test as always. Thanks Brother B.👍🇺🇸

You should test the new Buffalo Bore Low Flash/Low-Recoil 180 JHP 10mm! Made for "human" ballistic performance. Quick follow up shots and low flash sound great in 10mm. They also have 150 JHP in the same round. The question is, is it really low flash in low light and how does it compare against a 40 S&W in gel. Think bump in the night, next to bed application. Thank you, great content as always! Eric

I was expecting you to try the 170 grain bare gel without clothing. Just to see what might happen. Definitely old hallow point technology.

I know you don’t like the Remington golden saber … but the old rounds said “HPJ” on the box. Stand for “high performance jacket” … the brass jacket is harder, thicker and stronger than the thin copper jackets on other rounds. It harder, and stronger than lead… discounting the jackets when measuring expansion doesn’t make sense, and I’ve seen you do that on the 9mm…. Can you please test the 185 grain .45 acp +p … ?

Still a 10mm with disruption. Decent velocity on 170 is good. Newer bullets are better if built correctly. Thank you. Liking your Desert Eagle 10.

In order to get optimum velocity from the 10mm, you need a 6" barrel, or handload your own.

While disappointing with their lack of expansion in the gel, the wound track on the 170’s wasn’t terrible. Certainly far better options available now, but I wonder how it compares to other calibers/ammo from the same time period? I know the .357 magnum sjhp would have performed well, but outside of that I don’t know what else would have. In any event, I do appreciate the better projectiles available today.

Well failed test is good data that fmj wound channel tho and I would use those 170gr anyway because the ft lbs are there another great jelly test with an exceptional new tool 👍👍

I had to watch that one twice, the Better Health comment got me both times.🤣🤣🤣 I can't say I am that surprised, but dissapointed as well. Back in the late 70's early 80's, one of the "kid camp guns" was an old lever action .357 magnum. That thing killed deer the same with hollow points as it did with ball ammo, now I know why👍 80's bullet technology.

I'll take the UW230 any day. It's UWs 10mm 180gr XTP, which is out of the tube at 1300 fps with 676 ft/lbs of energy.

That M.R. 1911 is a good looking tool, especially laying next to that 2×4 on the right side😂

Another good ammo test

The early JHP hardly ever did well expansion wise. Had a customer last year that got a Kimber 10mm because when his Father passed away he had 2 cases less one box of the 170s!! I worked the gun over to make it reliable with the ammo. It was very Spicy stuff recoil wise, He took it to Texas pig hunting and no one round expanded. He only recovered one bullet and it had hit the shoulder blade, it had barely curled back one side of the jacket. IMO it just old technology in the bullet!!! As a Side note his father had the ammo because he actually had a Bren 10 but never had any magazines.

Bullets weren’t as advanced back then (even SuperVel). That’s why I went from 9mm to .45 in 1977. Today we have great bullets. Tools, you’re younger than me, but have you read anything about the .40 G&A wildcat, built on a Browning Hi-Power? Back then, it was hard to find jacketed .40 bullets. They finally used a JSP made for the 38-40, over a stiff charge of Blue Dot if memory serves. Lots of history leading to the 10mm.

Come to think about it, I believe bullet technology in general (then) was a bit lack luster. With that, I believe LE agencies and individuals, me included, relied on companies advertising as there wasn’t a wide-known ballistic testing outside of what we figured out what works and what doesn’t, usually through hunting. Anyway, nowadays, people want to harp on how bullet technology made the 9mm just as effective as (insert your favorite duty/defense caliber). While that might be truthful to some degree, bullet technology extended to other calibers as well - including the 10mm. I suspect with the OG Norma 170, penetration was the number one concern, and if that was the case, they nailed it, lol, as the then FBI 9mm 115 gr. Silver Tip failed to penetrate deeply enough to stop one of the Miami Shootout bad guys… ironically, that projectile missed bone which ultimately caused it to not drive deep enough… it missed the arm bone and ribs before stopping about two inches short of the heart. Had it hit a bone, the outcome might have been different… apparently, the ole .38 +p wad or semiwadcutter performed better than the 9mm 115 Siver Tip. I’m surprised Winchester still manufactures that load unless the bullet is slightly different than the 1986 version. Something else, I wish people would stop with the over penetration thing. Caveat is obviously not using a 200 gr . hard cast load in an apartment or other crowed setting. Let’s spend the energy here and talk about shot placement and making hits during a dynamic and violet encounter when innocent life is on the line. A miss is a lot worse than over penetration!

I had to look up to see what Nor. Still has in 10mm. They have a 180 JHP at 1224FPS. I doubt it makes the claim

Well I’m sure with you with the disappointment. lol. But I think it’s a great example of how good the hollow point technology has advanced. Running true 10mm velocities and didn’t even try to expand says it all. Still a great test! 👍🇺🇸🇺🇸

Look like hornady HAP for the hollow points = target bullets ?? 200 grainers definitely target bullets. Keep up the good work ❤

My condolences to you sir

Wow, not always great to meet your heroes huh? A bit ahead of its time maybe. If you had to make the old, "gun to one's head" decision, what is your all time favorite 10mm loading? Thanks for all your work!

Now you need to run some 40 S&W 180 gr HST in the same blocks.

I think the takeaway here is that bullet design has really progressed over the past 40 years.

10 mil jelly time!