🙂 Figured if the goal was to make it chatter.... might as well really give it the juice and chatter :) To be fair, the WOC is still pretty light which makes the IPM look a little less ridiculous... still very high though :)
Awesome. I've always wondered what chatter looks like. It would be cool to see a macro shot of any of the shop tools that move really fast like an air nibbler or something. I also wondered what it looks like when you accidentally run a lathe spindle in reverse (or mill). Not that I would have ever done anything like that, I'm purely asking for a friend that removed a substantial amount of material wondering why the knobs were so hard to turn...
Yay thanks for stopping by! So funnily enough, I think my first milling video on YT I was running the endmill in reverse and really struggling to turn the handles, not understanding what was happening. Doh :) I just might have to investigate that, yunno, for science.
@@BreakingTaps I'm pretty much convinced that all the channels I like also like watching the same channels I like... P.S. I feel like this totally changes my perspective on chatter..... had no clue a rigid looking set up like that would oscillate so much! I mean I could see the endmill and or tool holder and entire head of the machine deflecting that much during chatter but had no idea the work and entire machine table and vise would... crazy
Heck yeah! BTW, Steve Mould did an interesting video on video motion enhancement algorithms that modify the contrast of videos to accentuate motion using lower speed cameras. You guys could experiment with that for some good high speed footage.
I think it's been said lots of other places (AvE comes to mind): "everything is a spring." It didn't make any sense to me until I thought through what makes a spring-pass even possible. This video really drives the point home.
@@zuthalsoraniz6764 sharp corner not only sharp inside corner. At the sharp side of every knive it is just a radius, they may only be measured in nanometers or so but they are there.
As an actual CNC machinst, I can tell you that even the biggest and heaviest machines move around like this. Not as much, and not as fast, but your regular Haas mill is a limp noodle compared to dedicated heavy iron for HSM production machining. "Everything is a spring" is indeed correct, and everything that has clearance, has slop to move around. The second thing I want to mention is that your best stepover for "less than ridged enough" tooling is usually 33% and 66%, where the cutting forces want to pull the cutter parallel with the direction of feed, instead of into or away from the work. This tends to give you a more perpendicular cut, because the tool isn't flexing to one side, and can give you a more stable cut because the direction of the cutting forces is countered by the feeding forces of the machine and should have less backlash to move around in.
Such an underrated channel. Pushing home-manufacturing to a new level with every video. Your editing has improved massively as well over time. Best of luck on your RU-vid journey
Also appreciate the note about editing... it's so hard! I'm humbled everytime I watch a really good video with editing. Slowly getting better, trying to spend more time on it since it makes such a big difference imo.
I really like your "reading the tea leaves" metaphor. It very well encapsulates what it feels like to look at something that most people would see as nothing but noise and try to find patterns and meaning in it. Troubleshooting seems to be intuition as much as logic sometimes when our brains manage to find patterns learned from lots of experience while our conscious minds can't quite grasp them.
Still watching this video 3 years later. There's a wealth of knowledge to gain from it, both about your machine and the effects it has on machines in general. Once again thank you.
This is one of the most unique and informative videos I have ever seen on machining. Clearly, the average machinist does not have the equipment nor ability to do this depth of analysis. Thank you very much for sharing it.
Finally have an answer for the problems I had during the 25 years I worked as a Tool Maker/Machinist. I was too busy dodging chips to see the cutter "dance" about. I hope this video will be seen by all the younger people coming into the trade. THANK YOU!
Very good point, I should have been a bit more precise in my wording! Actually want to do a followup showing the table and gantry moving around, maybe with tracking points or something. Still trying to figure out the best way to quantify it.
Wow, I always cringe when I hear chatter and in my head I'm just imagining that super hardened metal against metal, but actually seeing what it's doing is crazy. Really great analysis, too. Haven't seen this channel before but I'm glad I stumbled across it.
"what NOT to do with an endmill", great high-speed footage! I assumed chatter was just bouncing *off* the part, creating just a lateral vibration - it never occurred to me that it would be a circular oscillation. But considering the bit is spinning, I suppose I should have expected that. Thanks for the vid!
That is amazing. I’ve made my fair share of mistakes and have seen the movement of the machine like that at the end. It’s pretty cool seeing it in slo mo
I would LOVE to see this done with all different types of tool holders to see the difference between them. Do ER collet, hydraulic holder, slim fit, shrink fit, rego fit, etc.
Thanks for this great video. It would be cool to see a slow-mo comparison between conventional milling and climb milling, and to see how the differences in surface finish are formed.
This is the stuff of universities and institutes. Very educational! I think that the factor , which additionally plays a big role, but is hard to estimate for yourself is the effect of temperature. It isn't constant throughout, but we all know how it could worsen a metals property. Great video!
Really great video! I'm always babying my lathe because I thought I was helping the machine, but from this it looks like I'm actually making the surface finish worse! Time to try some new feeds and speeds.
Thanks! And yeah, totally agree... I'm thinking back to prior projects and wondering if things would have gone smoother had I just given it a bit more juice, instead of dialing it back 🤔
When I was machining I didn't have that problem. I was always pushing the tool/machine to its limit. It's a lot easier to do that when it's someone else's equipment 😁
When machining long shafts it’s often common in industry to increase the roughing feed rate to the point where it almost looks like you’re screw cutting the shaft to reduce chatter 😊. Higher engagement usually stops the job rattling around and makes the work quicker!
This is honestly intriguing, I always thought the contrary to what you said in this video about chatter. I always figured that less heavy of a cut would cause less chatter and a lighter cut would cause less chatter. Awesome video.
Heavy cut creates a greater cutting force which bends the endmill tool and ultimately breaks it. Light cut won't but allows it to just oscillate that leaves lines on surface.
One of the best things that has happened to me today is discovering this channel. I sat there with my mouth open at being able to see and understand chatter. Thank you!!
I also wanted to ask, when your spindle bogged down and the VFD eventually shut off, if you had a more powerful spindle (5kw), that cut would of then been possible, no?
Thanks! I think a more powerful spindle might have done the trick, although I suspect there might be a configuration issue with my VFD too. Someone else in the comments ran the numbers and the spindle should have been pulling under the 2.2kW limit... so there might be a threshold on my VFD that isn't configured correctly, or maybe I tripped the thermal cutout. Not sure :)
All about finding the happy medium and making sure your fixture doesn’t move. And good quality tool. I used to be a CNC operator. I could tell when a tool was about to go from the sound, any burn marks the tool made, and the quality of the cut. It is fascinating to see it in slow motion.
I've seen quite a bit of machine porn but this shit is just gorgeous! And also educational. Very well done! Keep it coming! ...and nice choice of music, too!
This is great footage. I’m a professional CNC machinist, and I train the new guys. One of the demonstrations I do is take a 1/2” steel rod and a 1/2” carbide end mill and hit them both with a 2 lb sledge hammer while held vertically in a vise. The steel bends and bends on each hit and the carbide snaps right off, usually on the first hit. It is always shocking to see. It’s interesting to me that .050” or more step over was too much, that’s where we get good finish passes on our machines. Fun note, more tool length engaged usually is “free” when considering horsepower and will normally result in a better finish and longer tool life.
That was fantastic!!!! Thank you! I went into this thinking 'oh cool a slow mo video of an endmill' and ended with a whole new perspective on what the cutting edge requires.
In a "proper" cnc machine all you do is shift the failure point around to different places. Care and maintenance of tool holders and spindle taper. Pull studs. Draw bar springs. Collets or whatever tool holding. Tool balance/runout. Thrust bearing maintenance. Work holding. That's all right off the top of my head. Good cut parameters are exactly as important. The ragged edge of max productivity is every bit as razor thin, the bar is just set a tiny bit higher.
This is just some crazy video analysis. RU-vid's algorithm sent me your way somehow and I am so glad they did. I've always been looking for someone who knew machining AND All this slow mo videography stuff. The way you can measure certain things like how much the spindle moved is extremely helpful. Subbed.
Fantastic analysis! A picture is worth a thousand end mills " well maybe not" but at least a couple. I have wanted to see chatter for a long time to heighten my awareness of the circumstances that create it. All kidding aside thanks a million for posting this video and take care!
Absolutely fantastic work. Your play by play is super useful. Regarding cut depth... insight + (slowmo) sight is a 10 outta 10! More of this kind of skoolin for desktop amateurs PLEASE!
Thanks! I definitely err on the side of too timid with most of my cuts...then occasionally get adventurous and go too extreme and break a tool... Whoops :)
@@BreakingTaps I don't know if you already know this, but direction of feed makes a huge difference. The cuts you made in this video are what is known as a climb cut because the end mill tries to climb out of the cut. If you reverse the feed direction, you get what is known as a conventional cut. A climb cut can take a very substantial cut without overloading because it takes a large bite and peels it away, ejecting out the rear of the cut. A conventional cut scoops forward into the direction of feed, ejecting the chip out the front. It can be easily over loaded, causing it to pull into the workpiece and stall and break the cutter, but when used for a fine finish pass, it can leave a very nice finish. Typically, you should make a roughing pass with a climb cut and a finish pass with a conventional cut. This will increase both your accuracy and your surface finish.
As a cutting tool maker, this video is fantastic. I love it. You're talking about things that are so fast we'd never see it without a camera like this and therefore remains a "black magic"/"voodoo" area for most machinists. As a first time viewer, I'm off to see what else your channel has!
I just getting started in CNC with my 3018 "pro" I got on amazon, it's most definitely a toy. The easy-bake oven of CNC routers 🤣 But its interesting to know this, that shallow cuts are not without their disadvantages.
This stuff is more complex than I would have imagined. I always thought that less is more on a finishing pass, but clearly this is not true and there is a scientific optimal setting. Thank goodness wood is forgiving. But now I have more knowledge when I try can cut aluminum (6061) on my StepCraft CNC router. Thank you for sharing this knowledge! I would love to see the aluminum welding video as this is the exact issue I had last time I tried to mill some aluminum. It was a 4 flute endmill that previously worked well and I figured it was just dull. Now I think it was simple 2 many flutes, the wrong settings, chips not clearing fast enough, and the endmill was probably dull. Thanks
Wow, this is great information! Watching the setup move into a resonant frequency range before blowing apart makes a lot of things suddenly make more sense.
awesome video man!! this was so cool i love high speed footage of machining and i was also curious about chatter ur conclusions really interesting i cant say i woulda guessed it was because of too small of a cut...
New subscriber. My name's Ian. Great to take a good hard focused look at tool behaviour in duress. It's a nicely curated painstakingly assembled presentation of informative photography. When we break tools, we gain more experiential information and this video serves to catalogue and label some of that otherwise experientially gained information. Useful! It'll keep me from going through so many end mills...that is if I ever get the bloody thing built. You've got some interesting titles...
BT, very nice. I've been running machines since the1970's and this is the first time I've ever seen this. Thanks for the video and yes I will show this around.
Great video analysis, It does clearly show that the router is not rigid enough for those cutting parameters, and the climb cutting is making it even worse. It was cool to see how whole setup is moving during the cut. I was amazed to see that end mill didn't snap right away on such machine/setup shifts.
Awesome video, seeing chatter explains a lot. Seen it on large machines also not using right tool for the job. Amazing how much the mill, spindle and vice move.
Really cool footage! Cutting process vibrations is a really interesting topic. Solving a chatter problem is not easy to solve without good knowledge of the dynamic stiffness and damping (of the tool side and the fixture side).
I really appreciate the trouble you have gone to in this video. I operate a small turret mill which has been fitted out with ball screws and stepper motors and I have been using it to cut aluminium with mixed success. Using HSS 4 mm or 6mm 3 and 4 flute cutters I have had problems with chips sticking to the cutters. Whilst using compressed air to move the chips out of the toolpath I have had some end mill failures when aluminium has become welded to one of the flutes. This causes deflection and drag sometimes enough to break the HSS endmill. It would be interesting to see in slow motion how many times an edge picks up material and how many times it is shed before causing breakage. I suspect that it happens more than I can see at normal speed.
Stellar video. The editing and production quality on this is incredible. This is honestly one of my favorite machining channels now. I do wonder what that high speed setup is, more details in a future video?
Dude, you should have a LOT more subscribers! I’d subscribe more than once if I could. I’ve been CNCing for a while and this video showed me why I’ve seen some of the issues I have in the past that were a mystery before! Keep up the amazing content! If you build it, they will come. 😆
You hit the nail on the head when you said the machine is like a wet noddle an aluminum built machine like this is not suitable for cutting steel at this rate but a good experiment all the same
great images. Had a Fadal at my last job that no one knew how to use so I learned how so I am familiar with feed and depth parameters. I also did some high speed vid of a fluids so I know how hard it is to get good footage. What you did is really good and informative to watch. The oscillation of the material took my by surprise.
Great work Sir, very high quality production. I really enjoy your content. You're so advanced compared to my machining that I don't know what to recommend next. Maybe content like this with speeds and feeds using high speed footage, and showing other machining failures would be helpful. Maybe slotting in aluminum and gumming up the cutter, that would be interesting for noobs like myself.
Chatter is your depth of cut, machine stability, material being cut, material and profile of the cutter speed lubrication etc... that produces a harmonic frequency that causes chatter and there are multiple orders of harmonic and sub harmonic frequencys that combine and cause mayhem. What I do is finish the profile with a reverse pass (2 to 5 thou finishing cut) i.e. your not cutting, your spinning the cutter in the oppposite to its cutting direction into the job slowly.. outcome a nice shiny smooth finish and yes i am a trained eng tech Ps. Never used carbide cutters on the mill always HSS and never broke any as i would get my marbles booted lol if i did. Cutters are a capital outlay when blunt into the tool and cutter machine and re sharpen.
great video. Collet chucks are for drills, not endmills. That being said, I used collet chucks to hold endmills for many years. Invariably, the endmill would break. Usually right at the face of the collet, then the $8 collet is ruined..but most shops will use them again, and again, and again. For the utmost security, an endmill with a weldon flat held in a side lock (set screw) holder can't be beat. Yes it will have more runout than a shrink fit, milling chuck, or hydraulic holder, but it will not pull out, or rotate. I guarantee that if you put that endmill in a side lock holder, you will see different results. Use a Rego Fix or Big Kaiser holder with precision collets that cost in the neighborhood of $70 per collet, you will also see different results. You make the videos, and I'll provide the tooling>
I came across your channel a while ago in RU-vid recommendations and I've been consistently watching your videos. This is an awesome video and I appreciate the novel ideas you are putting forward. I think it is the machine gantry that is deflecting and not the endmill alone. It may something to do with overall machine rigidity. Typically the rigidity is lower in moving gantry machines. You don't have a nice heavy chunk of concrete or epoxy granite holding the spindle housing. Add to that aluminium frames deflect. A lot! Over a distance of about 800mm, a standard aluminium frame would deflect by as much as 1mm. Thats huge. With stiffened frames it comes down to about 0.2mm or so.
Yeah I've been rewatching this and other footage I captured... I think you're right. It's looking like the whole z-axis is acting as lever and twisting/torquing the gantry. I'm trying to figure out a way to capture a wide shot with motion tracking dots or something, to see if we can determine how the machine itself is moving around. I have strong suspicions the table is flexing around some too... the Avid machine uses a type of extrusion milled flat on one side for the table which could also flex. Thanks for watching!
Just an idea of the way how to figure out how much is your gantry flexing: if you attach a point laser to your gantry and project it to the wall, you will be able to see amplified twisting during the milling. And please keep up with fantastic videos. You deserve more subscribers.
Perhaps the high end mills use audio, much like a automotive engine tuner uses the knock sensor to pull timing out. I could certainly see “knock sensor-like” feedback being embedded or attached to the work piece holder, to optimize the cutting parameters. Love the music to accompany the great content!
Speaking from experience after working for a top carbide and tooling manufacturer, I would suggest you revisit how you hold your carbide cutters. ER collets, if that is what you are using are not very good. I suggest a side lock holder or the more expensive shrink fit. For a cheap experimental option I would try the side lock type. Cheers Ian langley ex Seco Tools New Zealand
This was great! I am very grateful to YT's algorithm today. If you're in the LA area I'd love to see what my 4x9' AvidCNC and Tormach look like at high speed. Great video!
First off, this is really great content! Subscribed. This is a lot of work, but I'd suggest putting a bunch of dots and recording the video. Then do motion tracking on the dots and then plotting the various motions. I don't know of a reasonable way to do this, but someone must. I've done stuff like this with OpenCV, but it was a big effort. Even if you don't get to tracking, at least take the video and maybe someone else can figure it out. It would be amazing to take the video, then see a motion capture that converts that video to a wireframe using the dots' real positions.
Oh my goodness, this is an AWESOME idea, thanks! I'm definitely going to research how to make this possible (and/or who to recruit to collab with if it's outside my skills). I was considering adding some dots to do rudimentary analysis of the table and frame since I was curious how much they were deflecting...but didn't think about going full motion-capture on it and build out a 3D model. Genius! I wonder how much 3D data can be extracted from a single perspective? Maybe do photogrammetry first to build up a 3D model, then the high speed data provides the motion? I dunno... exciting! So much to start reading :)
@@BreakingTaps Don't know if you have a programming background (still working my way through your videos), but here is a link to a site that got me started on OpenCV www.pyimagesearch.com/2015/09/21/opencv-track-object-movement/ In particular, this link shows tracking a dot. So long as your dot is significantly bigger than a pixel (consistent lighting, etc.), getting sub pixel resolution is totally doable (1/10 pixel is doable, IIRC). If you can find off the shelf SW, all the better. Combine this with a cross-colab with another bigger RU-vid machining channel (your content, if you pull this off, will make you the star of the episode), and I would bet you would get a huge jump in your subscriber count / dopamine fix.
Perfect, thanks! I do indeed have a programming background... not the best at Python but can muddle through. Will take a look and see if I can get something working over the weekend! I didn't realize OpenCV could track so robustly, sub-pixel resolution is super cool.
I'd be interested in seeing something like this using acrylic instead of steel. I use a lot of acrylic at work, and I sometimes have a similar problem. Rarely do I use steel, and even then it's the really thin stuff. This video is awesome though, didn't realize so much was happening during chatter. Also, it's so funny that people using a CNC are flabbergasted about .002", most people can't even comprehend that little.
I bet clear acrylic would look super rad in slow motion, especially if I can get a shot "through" the acrylic. Ditto for when it starts getting melty. Will look into it!
When you have a deeper or wider cut you are putting more force and vibration energy into the machine's structure. Double the width, double the force, quadruple the energy. These machines don't have much that will absorb that energy. It would be very interesting to see a super-slow-motion shot of a machine with tracking dots, which could tell us what part of the machine is doing most of the deflection. * I didn't catch which mill you are using, but most of them use cast iron for a fair bit of the framework. Cast iron has about 23x the internal friction of steel (iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/147/1/012031/pdf). That said, the mills tend to use thick cast parts which are very rigid. Unless the cast iron is doing the deflection, it can't absorb the energy. * I suspect that most of the vibrational energy usually gets absorbed by the work piece, where the cutter is peeling away a chip. This is the place where metal is deflecting the most, so has the most potential to absorb energy. I believe this is why shallow cuts can sometimes chatter worse -- the kick coupled into the machine from each cut is relatively larger compared to the energy dumped by peeling away the chip. It would be interesting to find the resonant frequencies of the mill, and then see if the chips that are cut at different points in the resonance show more and less plastic distortion.
Hi, very interesting video. Well disclaimer first: I don't run routers. But I find the idea that the WOC is the problem misleading, I was recently reading the cutting condition for the YG-1 V7PlusA end mills and it stated that for finishing passes you should use 2% diameter WOC and your WOC is 5%, this is more related to the high RPM, 24000 would be for running a small tool for cutting aluminum. On an milling machine in order to run that high even standard BT or CAT tool holder don't work, run-out increases, you have to switch to HSK.
Kind of makes sense, endmill engagement slows down spindle, when you hit 0 or low number spindle can speed up and bounce when endmill goes back into material.
More rigid spindle and workholding will def help. Also higher spindle speed causes FPT variance esp in smaller dia tools due to tooling tolerances ie. solidholder vs er16 vs shrink fit.
I remember one time milling slots into a hollow section of steel and it screamed like a banshee. I wonder if that was a case of the more flexible shs moving in and out like with chatter or the entire work piece becoming kind of amplifier. It would be cool to see something like that investigated with a HS camera
So I used to work in industrial automation, and one time we were building a machine to remove coating from pipes in a specific way. The project was a pain in the ass and was taking much, much longer than initially estimated but we were making progress. We had a medium-strength steel blade as a kind of scraper to remove the coating at a high RPM - the whole system rotated around the pipe as fast as possible - and the blades were getting stuck and sometimes breaking. The boss came in and told us to use carbide blades. The main mechanical engineer said "no, that's not the issue, carbide will just break MORE easily". Nope nope. Boss says use carbide. Spent a week reworking it to get the other blades in there. First run, blades just shatter. Get out the spares and slow it down. Blades shatter. Do this a few more times after waiting for more carbide blades to get made up. They shatter. Boss finally goes "huh maybe carbide is too brittle." YOU DON'T SAY!!
