Personally found Ford an odd one, between age, injury progile etc. Unless he's not got long on his Sale contract and Borthwick wants to guarantee he'll stay in England. Likewise with CCS and to a lesser extent maybe they're tied in with their clubs on non international class salaries so the risk of them going abroad is less if they're kept in the England squad.
Sam Underhill’s omission is baffling to me. Dating back to 2018 he was the catalyst for all of England’s biggest performances baring WC semi 2023. Curry is class but either injury or indiscipline keep him off the pitch too frequently. Would be interesting to know how often this group can be tinkered with.
I understand the Underhill omission given the back row competition. I wonder if Spencer and Randall are competing for a contract over the next few weeks. Wake up call to those young emerging tight heads in the Prem to stake a claim over the next few months. Gauntlet has been thrown down. Fin Baxter will be highly motivated too.
Would love to see Anthony Watson work his way back into the ENG Squad, good to see him back playing well this wkend! Same with Gloucester's Seb Blake & Zach Mercer.
@@Ethos1231 That's a shame, impressive that he's #8 all-time ENG Try-Scorer with 23 given his terrible injury record & getting switched between WG/FB. Had a decent shot had he stayed fit & played all his games on the wing of scoring the 50 tries needed (or coming as close as possible) for the #1 spot ahead of Rory Underwood!
Still a very good club player but think he's lost his top-end pace, between age and injuries in the last couple of years. Class player for England from 2016-2021 or so though.
This will create a them and us in the squad, partically when an elite player is injured and a non elite player comes in. There may be players that thought that they would get a contract, but haven't, and are thinking I should have gone to France at the begining of the season as I'm loosing money.
I’m very happy to give this a go to try to level the playing field with the centrwllly controlled unions. I’d like players first clubs to be rewarded for bringing them through. I’d also like a English JIF system
As good as all 3 + fly halves are I am surprised that 3 contracts were handed out to that position. Unless it is to ‘prevent’ other fly halves going to France. How often do each of these contracts get renewed / last for? Are they yearly? Per WC cycle?
I think Smith and Smith make sense for contracts (and I'm a huge Ford fan) but everyone talks about how valuable Ford is as a player coach. I imagine this is just England keeping hold of Ford ensuring he doesn't head to France. They see him as a key part of the RFU future.
Genge can't scrumage and ford and slade are way past their best and what's the point of picking three fly halves and not nurturing the talent in key positions we need players to grow in. Very eddy Jones and only positive is Farrell isn't there! Shocking selections
The ABs won one of their world cups with their 4th choice flyhalf due to injuries, given it’s such an important position this feels wise. But they’re missing their best 10 with Farrell gone what a shame
I have a huge amount of respect for George Ford, but believe he won't see much more action in an England shirt. It seems like it's a place wasted that should've gone to a younger player.
Conor O’Shea covered this on Youngs and Coley’s podcast - these contracts are not guaranteed selection and simply help England and clubs with training, workload and nutrition. I think there is also an enhanced focus on setting clear goals and roles for these players so club and country are less at odds with each other. I would imagine the other 8 contracts are waiting for some of the youngsters to step up into the big time, or for England to see who exactly their most important players are. I heard Borthwick wanted as much continuity as possible this autumn due to coaching upheaval so that might also be a factor. I would recommend listening to that episode if you haven’t already. Conor is a very astute coach and by many regards can be credited with Italy’s rise in success through youth pathways, so he knows what he’s doing when it comes to building long term plans
As you say this is presumably just the first wave. What we are missing is the criteria used to award these contracts and the perspective given to the players when this was dropped. If I am not wrong, these are 12 month renewable contracts so no long term guarantees and plenty of scope for changes
Now that these contracts are in place and so there's greater security over securing the core of the England side under the RFU's management is there an even greater argument to relax rules on capping players playing abroad. Just don't see the harm in expanding the selection pool especially when England's current issue is depth and a weak bench - adding Collier, Willis, Ribbans, Marchant etc would make for a significantly stronger team/squad imo.
You have to remember who gets these contracts is not only a function of playing ability but also where these players are contractwise. Ford was getting to thr end of his contract so its make sense to lock him in. Vice versa is we know underhill is locked in for 10 year on a barh contracr there is little incentive to give him a contract
This will sound odd, but I think cutting the number of English teams that qualify for the Champions Cup from 8 to 6 would be a big benefit to the Premiership.
It is absolutely insane to me that Underhill doesn't have a contract. Probably my favourite player in the squad. I hope that the England camp social media monitoring types pick up the fan sentiment on this and Borthers does right by our man.
Do the clubs themselves benefit from this arrangement? If so, how must Newcastle & Gloucester feel by not being awarded this subsidy, with Saracens being on the receiving end of 4 of these contracts? I think I need to understand the details before making further comment on this matter, but something doesn't feel right to me at present. 😊
I believe the clubs get no direct financial benefit from this - other than that it frees up their coffers for other players. All clubs benefit from having EPS qualified players anyway, but the likes of Sarries etc aren’t getting a big cash injection from the RFU because of it
So there are potentially how many games per year? 6-Nations and Summer and Autumn matches. About 12? And at 23K (is that what it is now?) per game that would be over 250K. So, would there be any players that would refuse the 150K? Is that an option for them if they get offered a contract?
How long do these contracts last for? There are 8 left to hand out (probably based on the selections over the autumn nations) but will the list be refreshed after a year or two?
Would want to see Baxter get a contract, but other than that the lack of props just highlights our lack of strength there. Still think that Curry's reputation is doing a lot of heavy lifting, he wouldn't be in my 23 at the moment.
I have no idea how the elite contracts work…but do the other players not feel inferior then? Also how does this affect selection game to game would the elite players get preference in selection even if they not quite performing as well?
No 3s, only one 9, and no guy who normally plays 12 for his club...pretty clear where England's problem positions are. I like this idea in principle though.
Yes this will keep the bigger players around and help out club funds but will it force the fringe players/ up and coming players else where? Also if the point is to keep the Prem strong by keeping them in England, will it see the big players playing less for there clubs to keep them fresh for bigger games / internationals? Tricky
Surely there is another spot for a No.9. No doubt the Autumn internationals will be an audition for this. Feeling very sorry for Freddie and Underhill. More so for Underhill as Freddie does not fit England's style of play at all atm...unless he transitions to 12.
The lack of scrum operators in the group is baffling. As you said, England has fallen twice over the hurdle of a weaker scrum in World Cups, in 2019 and 2023. Ox for World Player of the Year!
As a Bok fan and as a football fan, why is this such a major talking point? Why do we need or even want to have our first choice players playing in our country? Does the Real Madrid and Barcelona having Brazilian and Argentinian talent make Brazil or Argentina any weaker? The Boks have won two world cups back to back, with more than half of the first choice 23 playing overseas; Pollard, Faf, De Allende, Kriel, Marx, Kwagga, Mostert, Snyman, Kleyn, PSDT, Kolbe, Wiese. And the rest, almost all of them did play overseas for at least a season. The way I see it: with our Boks playing in clubs in Europe and Japan, that means more of our talent gets to step up and fill the positions of the local franchises. Where in the past, our choice for any position would be a pick between the Stormers, Bulls, Lions, Sharks and Cheetahs top pick, now we have options all over the world, alongside our five top franchises. I dunno. Just seems to me like a win-win.
@@ashleysoudah I get the argument, I'm just not so sure that it would work out like that; I haven't seen that happen in other sports. To each his own though.
@@Jack-qv5ru Okay we got a big pool of talent, but so does England, surely? And it's quality all the way down. You guys have Owen Farrell at ten - the best English fly-half since Wilkinson - and then you're able to pull out guys like Ford and Smith? That's crazy depth. Then there are guys like Baxter, who looks like a two year old trapped in the body of Brock Lesnar. Never saw him before, suddenly, boom, the kid is holding his own against Tyrell Lomax. England has massive amounts of talent to push up if and when some top guys leave.
1 prop says it all, ridiculous really, and a prop has one job, push. Other things are a bonus. Tackle 2nd. Genge has great feet, and beautiful hands, but if you cant scrum and tackle you're out
Is this squad building for 2027? What about some of the youngsters like Pollack and Pearson? They had excellent matches in a losing cause against Bristol. More so, they play with a hunger and passion that seems to go missing from others. Or is it that Borthwuck is not looking that far ahead, because he may get sacked during the 6Nations if results don’t go England’s way and enough England players don’t get selected for the Lions tour?
Lack of picks at prop and in the backrow just indicate that things are all to play for imo. One from a position of relative weakness, the other a position of relative strength.
The scrum is a weakness for Ireland as well don't forget. As good as Porter and Furlong are around the field, they were targeted by SA and the All Blacks and conceded a lot of penalties. That Leinster front row got overpowered by the Bulls last year as well in the URC against fringe SA props, Steenekamp and Wilco Louw.
These contracts aren't subsidies - the players were already getting paid by the RFU on per match basis anyway, and its not immediately obvious that this new system will cost the RFU that much extra money, albeit they could now be paying players who are injured and aren't playing, which is not something that they have previously done. But baring injury, you would anticipate these players being involved in 90% of England games anyway. For a player who plays a lot for England, these contracts are cheaper for the RFU than paying them per match. So I dont think that it is a 'money thing' at all, whats really behind it is control. The RFU want to gradually wrestle the control of the top players away from the clubs and into their hands. Whether that is a good thing or not is debatable, but the clubs are in such a weak financial position at the moment, they cant really argue too much.
Ah ha! Is there some common sense in the system at last? Hallelujah! As to our fly half the test surely must be the proof is the quality of ball the centres receive. That seems to be a question that doesn’t come up in most discussions, as it generally balances on who can kick most possession away?
Maro Itoje - 29, Jamie George - 34, George Ford - 31, Ellis Genge - 29, Henry Slade - 31, that's almost 30% of the elite squad looking at end of international career soon. Surely, if the strategy is to keep talent in the uk, you´d want to invest in young players, once you've lost young talents like Jack Willis, it's already too late, and he's a huge (biggest) loss for the England squad.
Grass-roots Rugby is in shit order because we have bred several generations of lardy, games console addicts. The club I visit regularly, was playing Blackheath. There were some serious 'nutritional over-achievers' in both packs, and not one of them was as tall as I am (6'5") - in my day, I was considered a bit short to play lock, so I played blind-side or No8. If we are serious about competing with the big 4 in world Rugby, we simply have to get properly focussed on developing the sport more in schools. Throwing money at clubs with limited talent in their pool of players is a major waste of resources. Then concentrate on keeping the players that are in the youth teams in the game. How many U18s make it through to the senior teams? Not as many as there should be.
Don't get the choices such as T.Curry with his injury issues and the need for further surgery likely . As for Ford why ? ( we have 2 very good young FH's why not another to build for the future instead of going backwards ) and why Slade ? when we have Lawrence a natural 13 playing as a 12 . Just think now is the time to look to the future and build for the six nations etc instead of relying on these 30+ year olds for the autumn internationals and beyond .
Curry imo was a good worker but an average player - even at his peak. He’s not at his peak anymore. Underhill, Baxter, Hill, etc can consider themselves unlucky.
But you are ok with chessum getting a contract? The weakest point in the line that spends every game on his backside or hands on his head after a player runs past him?
A truly English take. Miserable and looking to the negatives. Not to worry, you'll be able to talk about the magic of SA before long and tell us all about how amazing they are.
Why on earth is George Ford in there ? What has he done that is so outstanding this season? He is old hat and overated like Farrell! Owen Farrell was awful for England on the whole and held them back? So I don’t understand why you are saying how good he was? Why do you think England fans booed him at the 2023 World Cup? Probably the only player ever to be booed in the history of English rugby? England fans are not stupid so the booing was done for a reason… Farrell was not good for the England team post the 2019 World Cup.
You have a short memory regarding fly halves. Time was when England didn’t have one that would get into any of the other 5 Nations ( I’m ignoring Italy).
Most English thing in a while, copying NZ and Ire with central contracts.. but we don't want to be admitting to following an idea from the "colonies" 😅 so give it a different name.
So he can basically now Legally dictate to the Quinns coach that M.Smith to just stay at 15 when it’s not working too make room for ford to play at 10 waahhhoooo so happy greatest news ever #gethimout
More money equals better play? I agree that the clubs are financially falling apart. It is a system built on a base of sand. Too many clubs and too little interest. I would not give anything more and get them back to playing for Love of Nation. Genge is a terrible scrummer and there is no reason for it except his stubborn head. Marler and Cole are also ancient garbage, run around, over penalized jokes. England is hated because their players are snobs and stand offish. They play for money not for lover. They need some young enthusiastic front rower to nurture and improve. Get rid of the old trash, they are not WC material.
