I Lived as an anagarika in a Buddhist Monastery in the early 1990’s based on the Mahasi methodology, and I found it a skilful means, within the context of cultivating other factors of mind. As a tool for bringing a closer look and acknowledgement of what’s happening, it sharpens the attention. It is objective, and impartial. It is clear, this is what is happening, it lessened the chance for self deception, aversion, confusion, pushing away or clinging by clarifying exactly and precisely what was going on, so you gain understanding. I also found it helped break that automatic and habitual identification with mind states that we tend to overlook and it helped break repetitive states of mind. Again within the context of other skills.
So far in my experience, and as someone who has studied all three main schools of Buddhism extensively. None of them contradict one another. To many people get caught up in so called original Buddhism, Theravada, or one particular school. I follow Mahayana, Zen and Taoism. I have studied the original texts but I appreciate the method, ritual, mantra, and metaphysics of the greater school.
Feeling good is just the beginning of the path. One cannot stay stuck in the desire for joy, this becomes a hindrance as there are higher states to be known.
As much as i want to side with Daniel for taking criticism so gracefully, he kind of proved dhammaratos point in different ways by admitting how edgy or volatile noting is compared to other techniques
these two complement each other nicely - Dhammarato feels a bit like a kindly bull, a powerfully positive being who is ready to instill the right motivation through his own fierce positivity and inspiration. A nice pairing with Daniel, who is more like a meticulous physician, looking with a lot of nuance at the diversity of meditators, and our various strengths and weaknesses. I think Dhammarato struggles with the level of granularity that Daniel likes to live at, but his attention to the big picture is wonderfully supportive. I think Daniel is a little less able to roll into the heart space that Dhammarato talks about with "gladdening" for example, but his contribution is so helpful in realizing different methods are neede for different people. It's like red wine and chilean sea bass. I have no idea if those actually go together, Lol.
This is in response to Dhammarato's method.The hindrances are not self and not under your control. It arises and ceases based on causes and conditions. Many times you cannot just throw the hindrances out if the conditions are not right. In those cases you just have to note it and not react to it until it passes away and it will pass away. On the other hand I really appreciate Dhammarato (and the Buddha) for emphasising the possibility of a shortcut of happy thoughts and removing the hindrances as an automatic condition leading to the higher stages of liberation. With happiness the supporting conditions are that of right conduct.
@@DPSAX95 then he needs more insight practice. If hindrances were under our control nobody would be suffering, and anybody who came across his method would instantly be liberated. Trust me every meditator has tried this and failed because, hindrances are not under ones control. They can be dealt with, just not forced to go away through an act of will or acceptance.
@@DPSAX95 if hinderances were under our control they would not lead to aversion, one could say “may i be restless here, may i not be restless there.” but since hinderances are nonself they do lead to aversion, and one cannot say “may i be restless here, may i not be restless there”
This is not just Dhammarato’s opinion by the way. It’s straight out of the Pali Canon: AN 10:51 Sacitta Sutta: "If, on examination, a monk knows, 'I usually remain covetous, with thoughts of ill will, overcome by sloth & drowsiness, restless, uncertain, angry, with soiled thoughts, with my body aroused, lazy, or unconcentrated,' then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head; in the same way, the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, relentlessness, mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. 💧 💧 💧 💧 💧 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥 🔥
Occasionally Dhammrato makes some good points, but he’s such a terrible listener and so defensive, it can be really frustrating. Steve, now I’m very curious about your views. Stop being such a tease and share!! 😊
Daniel's epistemology starts with sociology not with Buddhism, that comes after. He relativizes the teachings of Buddha in a very western postmodernist way.
@@MegaMONI45 Malcolm Smith: “ To make it even more plain - it is the aspiration or bodhicitta to become an arhat or a pratyekabuddha which is labeled "hinayāna," that and and various schools which present that as the ideal path. It is considered especially negative for bodhisattvas to abandon Mahāyāna bodhicitta out of depression or defeatism and turn towards the bodhicitta of arhats or a pratyekabuddhas. But it does happen, as in the case of people who take bodhisattva vows, but then give up Mahāyāna for this reason or that and enter Theravada. The day that someone can show me that the primary aspiration of Theravada and most Thervadins is to become a fully awakened buddhas with thirty major and eighty minor marks, with all the ten powers, four fearlessnesses and the eighteen unique qualities of a Buddha, then at that time I will cease to consider Theravada a hinayāna school like the Mulasarvastivadins, Dharmaguptakas, and such extinct schools as the Mahasamghikas, and so on. But thus far, no one has ever demonstrated to me that Mahāyāna bodhicitta exists in Theravada in general. The issue is not really about love and compassion - we understand that Arhats have limitless love and compassion for sentient beings for as long as they are not in a state of cessation. But when they enter cessation, they abandon sentient beings and that is their primary flaw, among other flaws well described even by such authors as Vasubandhu in the Kośa, such as the possession of non-afflictive ignorance and so on.”
I think I’ll put on peace sells but who’s buying. Rust in peace is still my favorite though. 👍 I’m also a mahayanist along with Zen and a bit of Taoism. ☸️☯️☸️ 🤘🤘🤘
I actually REALLY like a lot of what Dhammarato says. I just found him off-putting the first few times I watched these videos because he doesn't seem to listen to Daniel and seems quite intent on winning while claiming hes not personally involved lol. I wonder if anyone feels the same? No offense to him I think he's lovely, just would be much better rounded and wholesome if he didn't come off argumentative and dismissive about what Daniel says. Unfortunately it took me a long time to start liking Dhammarato because of this, although I realize that is largely my own failing. I think he sticks to his own views too strongly, interrupts fairly often, and sometimes says things that don't fit in well with modern thinking, like his comment on the nuns, and there's another comment he made about feminism in another video that I found off-putting. And that's okay, and I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong, I don't know, I'm just saying all these things come together and aren't the most pleasing thing in a personality. Again please don't take this critically, it's just my own interpretation and I don't hold to it too strongly either as I'd rather like the teacher as much as I can muster and really be inspired by their teaching.
Interesting! What Dammarato ststes is very similar to Bhante Vimalaramsi way of teaching. You have to liberate hindrances, not just noting them! They both relate to Anapanasati Sutta. Also, in Dzogchen libeating all that is arising is essencial but it happens effortlessly when one is (able to be) in rigpa, the state of primordial wisdom. Otherwise one talks about using any method based on effort, like transformation or renounciation, according to ones capacity. Nevertheless, the principle of Dzogchen methods is not that different from that one Buddha presented in Anapanasati Sutta. So, there is noting but then liberating should follow with a sense of relaxation and wholesomeness.
I don't fully understand why people get the idea that noting isn't liberating the hindrances. I find noting an emotion, for example, to bring a sense of relief.
@@user-fg3fv9hl3bBoth Bhante Vimalaramsi and Dhammarato teach noting to their students but with them there is more explicit emphasis put on also intentionally enjoying that sense of relief that you speak of.
@@andrewhayden8681 are you sure? Not doubting you, but it seems like dhammarato talks down noting multiple times throughout these series of videos. It's been a while since I have seen them though so I could be wrong. Also just want to say enjoying the sense of relief is so important, otherwise it feels like constantly waiting until you have enough relief to feel okay.
It’s not the noting practice in and of itself that Dhammarato is against (I’ve seen him teach it to some of his students on his youtube channel), but more-so what seems in the Mahasi Tradition to be a disregard towards the cultivation of joy and satisfaction which were such key elements of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali Canon. Enjoying the sense of relief that you speak of is not explicitly part of the instructions in the Mahasi Technique as far as I’m aware but I agree that it’s super important.
I started out meditating seriously for a number of years using the Mahasi method but when I tried a Goenka course, I was able to get into much deeper states of meditation than before, mind blowing stuff.
Did you achieve jhana? I would love to experience that. I do I hour breath meditation. A day. I am curious about doing my first Goenka retreat in Massachusetts
@@mattrousseau3121 No I did not achieve jhana, if you measure jhana based on Goenka's or traditional Burmese Buddhism's interpretation of the suttas. However I can say that the level of concentration using Goenka's methods of anapanasati and mindfulness of bodily sensations was more intense and stable for me when compared to the Mahasi method.
Such a great conversation and counterpoint of perspectives! Kudos to Daniel for his thoughtful responses despite repeated interruptions. Also, kudos to Steve supporting the unfolding dialogue.
Absolutely Dogen’s teaching start with equanimity, it comes down from his teacher Rujing, ultimately back to Dongshan and Hongzhi’s “silent illumination”.
Went back to their earlier dialogue on the channel after listening to this and found it valuable. Different expressions of the base, path and fruit from the Dzogchen tradition but ultimately the destination is the same, just the expressions differ. I can't remember where i read it but "as it is taught so it manifests" . 84 thousand baskets of teachings should cover most bases!
Ingram's process feels very yang: turn yourself into a human CERN and split every Jhanna into sub-Jhanna, micro-Jhanna and nano-Jhanna. Then you inevitably have to flip to a yin approach since the absorptions are very useful but a dead end in themselves. This set the bar of Dharma's fruition for a lucky few. I'm by no means an expert on the level of either Daniel or Dhammarato. Do have more affinity to Dhammarato's approach. Since meditation is yin in essence, practicing surrender and clearing the hindrances from the get go is very easy and effective. BUT of course you do need the brainpower. Complex topic and great to hear it discussed on this level!
Its a bit annoying that he doesn't let daniel finish speaking many times. Wholesome thoughts and morality in general are great, but they cant desolve the ego completely.
I think Dhammarato has quite a bit more internet lag than Daniel and Steve. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me a lot of his interruptions are incidental.
It's like we are lost wandeting nattering and faulty as we all die ..like wise some go through life totally deluded on a planet full of infinite thoughts and beliefs .I hope I have few delusions and anger and die well and quickly and not by my hand in frustration and I have warm smiles and nice words of compassion
Samatha and Vipassana goes in tender Samadhi is required to calm the mind first followed by Vipassana Essential to understand the two methods and their objectives
It seems obvious to me there are two cultural upbringings/backgrounds which will never meet. The more flexible way of thinking, the more playful psychological experiential approach, beyond fixed traditionsl appeals more to us westerners. Dhammaratos reaction to Daniel asking how this felt when he "burned his arm on the stove" showed me: rather repressing/dismissing painful moments on his path and stick to the Dharma. Daniel dares to question fixed standpoints, allows fresh air, new ideas and western thinking based on logic to enter the Dharma. To me both are right and in tune with their opinions because Dhammarato has not to deal with challenges Daniel has to face in his life and carrier. I guess Daniel is driven by optimising his abilities to make a difference during abiding in his body. Dhammaratos has coped out of the vast complexity of western lifestyle and helps people in accepting simplicity instead of looking how to master "self made"complexity. Again I would agree with Daniel: It depends what appeals to you and how you are wired. Do you prefer safety in a well organized journey over risky trips into rather uncharted territory. Thank you again for your skillful hostage of two spiritual Giants🙏🌹🌻🥰
I hate socks... Such a hindrance :P Interesting discussion, albeit tense at times. Kind of taken aback by the insistence in one method given the many that exist. Perhaps I'm missing something, as I'm not coming from a background in meditation or Buddhism. I actually got my start in mindfulness practices through Osho's Book of Secrets; given that particular tantra's offering of 112 methods (or paths), the insistence in one way is difficult for me to comprehend. Having felt pressured to practice vipassana (in therapy of all places) without consideration for my personal capacity to have my own direction, this kind of perspective can take on a (re)traumatizing effect that becomes a hindrance to another's progress. In a situation such as this, we can find ourselves at the mercy of someone else's spiritual superiority which does no good to anyone, even if both views similarly seek a point of transmuting suffering into healing. If I were to compare my own practice with meditation, I would describe it as a process of noting or something akin to kasina, as just something that is done throughout the day to achieve awareness instead of while sitting on a cushion. It began with physical sensations, then naturally proceeded to noticing my thoughts as 'not mine', which later became a realization of all the senses sharing a sameness before entering the mind. I've reached states of bliss, deep compassion, equanimity and 'not-self' (which funny enough, was when I did find myself naturally and suddenly drawn to meditation for a period of time), which I equate with a rising of energy throughout my body, and I've also experienced times of the dark night (like now!). The effects of these experiences have impacted my life greatly and I equate them with a sense of awakening or rebirth; to what extent, I couldn't tell you. Point being, I think any practice is leading towards the same thing and has similar pitfalls, albeit the route there may take one to different places in different timeframes along the journey. There's something to be said for considering personality and "I-ness" while it exists though; perhaps - strangely enough - especially if that concept/form was already shaky at best. There is even a beautiful story about this regarding the Panthako brothers. Some of us will find our way going straight... Some of us have to make sharp turns when the current path might be(come) a limitation that got us so far but is just leading us in circles. Is comfort itself not at times a form of delusion or 'mara', too? Well, at bare minimum, I appreciate that Buddha said we are asked to contemplate these things for ourselves and not blindly believe him or anybody else. I think there's room in that statement to realize that there's no spiritual perspective that's better or worse than another, they're just different forms of the same thing, and whether anybody agrees or not, I have this sense that transcending any need for, or attachment to their forms is the intention of them all; a means to an end, so to speak. Dhammarato's example of burning one's arm on a stove is a perfect example of an experience like that being insight for one person, and a hindrance to another if they cannot ever comprehend that not every stove or hot object will burn them and instead end up avoiding furthering their insight by avoiding any fire - be it physical or otherwise - coming into contact with them to burn away what is possibly more useful as ashes. As for me... I still have this bad habit of flipping things out of the oven with my fingers instead of with a spatula!
A bit unrelated but it would be fascinating if you did a Podcast with Delson Armstrong and Daniel (and maybe Shinzen?) to talk about the Highest Jhanas since both of them claim to have attained them like the cessation of perception/feelings/consciousness and to see how exactly their practices led to these states (Daniel practices Visudhimagga Jhanas and Delson no).
Steve: "ah.. from my own experience, oh here comes Dhammarato, Saved by the bell!" come oooon, mah bro! we (the Audience) would love to hear more about you! but you always dodge!!! even if your perspective in 'controversial" , all the better!!
That was awesome. Thanks Steve. I would love to hear your opinion Steve when ask. I would love someone, don't be living in this model in the same way Igram does.. Would be an incredible conversation.
It's impressive to claim that you are so enlightened that you experience not even a shred of stress or negativity ever, eh? Too bad that's very unlikely to be the case and awakened folk these days who are honest say otherwise. Insight is great but it's not going to eliminate suffering to that extent.
Great job of mediating and allowing the stage for insight - many missed opportunities - they might require a mediator familiar with both of their positions? 82:30 is a simple example. Not Just sati. Which is remember - but remember your commitment to the path, the path itself, and most importantly the marks of existence. So Sati Sampajanna - to remember(previous list) to bring clear comprehension to all of life's activities. SO they were both right - almost there. Noting, yes, but note how thoughts/sense perceptions have a source in fetters or ego or a wish for permanence... Suffering. Dukkha. Du for bad - or lesser - and Kha for air or space. Our ego and wish for permanence: leads to an air of dissatisfaction. Like Friston's free energy today or Vasubhandu of old, even Kipling had the solution and the entirety of the teachings: Treat triumph and disaster like the imposters they are. Treat 'Good' and 'bad' as wanted, welcome.
The problem I’ve experienced with the noting method, is that the mind will never get into the jhanas, at least into the 2nd jhana or beyond. I don’t see how that is in any way skillful. There is a reason samma samadhi is the 8th path factor of the noble eightfold path, the Buddha didn’t leave it out for a reason.
I was only able to listen to small sections here and there, however, I found the conversation compelling. I thought Dhammarato's interjections were on point and worth saying. As for Daniel, his comments, around the 45 minute mark, on tailoring techniques to the individual yogi sounded exactly like the approach taken in traditional Chan and Zen. Or, at least, as found in the remarkable book, Tracing Back the Radiance, Chinul's Korean Way of Zen. In that book, author Robert Buswell outlines the conflicts between the instant and gradual enlightenment Chan schools/sects. Whatever the differences, both schools recognised the need for awakened masters to develop teaching approaches tailored to the individual needs of students. This development of teaching/communication skills falling on the gradual and conditioned side of awakening.
Guru Viking? More like Guru Ninja the way he dodges Daniel's questioning. Viking, your view can't be too divergent unless you don't practice in the perspective of awakening, a shift in consciousness that eradicates suffering. Or maybe you don't subscribe to Buddhism and that's why it's divergent? Very interesting. Where do you draw your meditation instructions Guru Viking? Aren't you a teacher as well?
He's never seemed to shy away from giving his view so firmly before, so I suspect he has a future video in mind he wants to save this material for. Either that or maybe his view on this topic is grounded in an entirely different discipline and so he couldn't really give his opinion on it without hijacking the conversation indefinitely. He does plan his questions out in advance, so maybe he was worried if they went too far off course he wouldn't be able to get to the questions he really wanted to ask.
There's simple vs, like Daniel likes to say, complicated. There's the natural method and there's mind exploring. I think Daniel confuses them. I admire his courage in expressing his opinions and experiences but meditation is very simple, except for people like him that feel the need to create theories and alternate realities. For the common folk it's as Dhammarato says, just get rid of whatever is a hindrance in living from what Michael Taft calls Vast Spacious Awareness. If mind exploring is your thing read, "The Center of the Cyclone: An Autobiography of Inner Space a 1972 book by John C. Lilly . You will see how "far out" you can get. But don't believe for a minute that this is what the Buddha taught.
I don't think anyone can be too sure of what the Buddha taught, as the words were passed through memory for many hundreds of years. I enjoy the mind exploring analytical style as much as I do the natural method. I think our mind has a need for both to different amounts for different people, and to say "this is meditation and that isn't" is being rather silly.
No way is it possible that Daniel is an arahant - the way he speaks so much and so fast, jumping from one thought to another like a neurotic city dweller - no way is he even an advanced practitioner
That's a rather simplistic (and dualitistic) view. Enlightened people don't have to act like white clouds floating peacefully. Many masters have shown very dynamic behaviors and activities.
I'm not defending anyone in particular. Just pointing out a possible limitation in your view. What's important is the character of the person (their core values and behaviors), not the personality. A bit like ice-cream - what's important ultimately is if it's good for your body or not, not if you like the flavor.
So far in my experience and as someone who has studied all three main schools of Buddhism extensively. None of them contradict one another. To many people get caught up in so called original Buddhism, Theravada. I follow Mahayana, Zen and Taoism. I have studied the original texts but I appreciate the method, ritual and metaphysics of the greater school.
