Ep83: Is There Magic In The Dharma? - Daniel Ingram and Dhammarato 

I’d love to see a conversation between Daniel Ingram and Damien Echols next.

Thank you guys! May all beings be free from suffering

Amazing discussion! Thank you all so much for the opportunity of listening to it!

At some point, every day Buddha woke up searching the 6 directions in his mind's eye for people who "a little dust in their eyes", who were ready to hear the Dhamma. What this means to me is that Buddha himself made use of siddhis to help liberate others.

Thank you for bringing these mind-blowing issues to the rest of us.

Thank you Steve for creating the opportunity and thank you Dhammarato and Dan for delightful conversation. I see strong bridges being built where wise folks handle differing ideas in such skilful ways. May we all benefit from more teachers coming together. No-one else is doing this as far as I'm aware Steve so please, more more more!

I had to re-upload the video because it got stuck in RU-vid processing...so if you made a comment on the previous version please write it again here in the comments section and I will answer during the Premier 🙂

Thank you hosting this great conversation!

This was just wonderful. Thanks for sharing.

Excellent dialogue. It will feed my conversation with my dharma buddies tmrw morning. You are rockin it. Thank you so much! ✨💕

What a wonderful conversation, just to hear Daniel and Dhammarato speak so authentically with one another was such a joy that brought so much to the content itself. But I have to say, the closing music coming in with Daniel's closing statement was the perfect cherry on top, an insane amount of joy and peace came over me. Thank you Steve, Daniel and Dhammarato for this blessing.

🙏🏾💖🌸💐, Love u Dhammarato, great job!

Wonderful. Thank you all.

The beauty of Dhama Realisation ? Huh Whaaat??? You are really unbelievable !

Daniel is trying to argue against demonising the "distractions" and defend his difficult path which he enjoys. Guess these issues must be handled gently and skilfully by meditation teachers. Ven Dhammarato is saying the Buddha has showed the direction to the goal of transcending Samsara, the path/road, don't veer off into the jungle and wilderness (distractions and delusions). Excellent discussion. Thank you very much, Guru Viking

tremendously insightful, I have to say!

I’ve really grown to love your podcast man. You keep it interesting and ask questions I’d want to ask. Thanks for putting out content like this, it means a lot to me!

you picked the right guests here! 👍

Two of my favorite teachers. Epic.

Absolutely loved this interview! It feels like such a privilege to learn more of both of your views. I just wanted to second what Daniel is referring to in regards to the need for openness and skillful guidance in relation to the magical by expert meditation teachers. Knowing for example how to be compassionate, gentle and kind to any being, including those in the astral/non-ordaniry realms, through normalisation of these types of encounters to me seems like a crucial step in order to start mending the balance between the various realities (or ways to percieve realities if you want). Seeing other meditators mindlessly reacting in fear and aggression with their freshly activated powers on meditation retreats makes me sad.

This was a wonderful dialog, big thank you to all of you! 💕

Daniel Ingram sheds some light! ✨✨

A very insightful conversation.

That was deep. Thank you guys.

really nice dialogue format! 🎤

Thanks so much Steve for this interesting and enjoyable exchange. Dialogue is really important to overcome narrow minded and sectarianism which is a big plague in these days. May I propose another dialogue between Dhammarato and Glenn Mullin? That would be a really super interesting exchange between two Buddhist views that have so much misunderstanding between them. And to see these two experienced practitioners, agreeing, disagreeing, joking and laughing would be such a joy! Please think about it! 🙏🙏🙏,

Very focused discussion on struggling with ones mind, as I see this discussion. Well, that's what you get with meditation, I reckon, going round and round in circles. I believe you must slip past the mind, entirely. So, I reckon I am on a totally separate point at this stage of my own unfoldment. I was looking not to escape this world, but to gain the experience of creation by embracing it, especially if you were aware of where your path was going and what assignment you might have, for me, that is not to be a master or a teacher, yet that is an essential service to this world and thankful I truly am for those of you that are teachers, but I am looking past the void to being involved in creation itself with the creative force. Thank you for your sincerity and your service.

this is real insightful Guru Viking!

How amazing was this talk?

nice discussion! 👍

I read daniels book. However I agree with the other guy on the issue of magik powers. It is bunk. Also it would probably be great motivation for the ego to get more control over others

Amazing dialogue

I really liked this one :)

I second what Dhammarato is saying. It's way more difficult than one would initially expect to find good Wats to visit and practice.

you are a real dedicated person Guru!

And I would like to see sort of conversation between Deniel and Shinzen Young, both are heavy weight Dharma teachers of the West. And the topic of course arahantship and definition of enlightenment at general. I guess Shinzen will never recognize an arahant in Daniel as Young have quite straightforward but also quite weird definitions of arahant and definitions from Danial are quite vague. Other topics may be how to recognize internally or externally levels of attainment, may that be some tests, certificate issuances (haha), or I don’t know.

This conversation is super interesting, I'd love to see more discussions like this in the future! At least for me, it's super helpful to have a perspective, like Dhammarato, that is based off of the suttas. I find it provides a solid foundation to explore from.

Great interview as usual, thanks a lot for that one:) By the way, the intro-and outro music is really brilliant. From the description, it seems that you have even composed it yourself? I wonder if there is a place in the wide internet where one can listen to the full track? It does not seem to be on youtube or may it be that I just cannot find it? Anyways, keep up your fantastic work, it is very much appreciated :)

really learned something about buddhism

Neither of these two personalities inspire much confidence in me.

really great interview. Though Daniel was an egomaniac but he is really smart and awakened.

1:17:00 very interesting parallels to Neville Goddard’s teachings where repetition is used in several techniques to guide the thoughts back into the right direction until the desired result is achieved. The result can be spiritual as well as material in nature. For example achieve mental peace, download a very specific answer to a question, achieve wisdom, obtain a job.

Desiring magical futures..... 😂.....well played Daniel. I love when people realize they are full of shit. Makes me feel like I am in good company. I tried pretending I didn't want. I was lying. The powers scare the shit out of me sometimes when they become too "real" and that leads me to insight. Trauma bonding with life has been my modality for some time. I like music. Sure, its sensate and perhaps it is ignorant to enjoy music but I can't help but wonder about humanity's natural attraction to harmony. Maybe I will suffer more when the music stops but I am going to enjoy it when I can. I see the powers kind of like reading the sheet music of duality. When I indulge too much in the powers...I begin to feel like nothing is "real" and life seems scripted. The aversion to this gave me some insight. Thanks for defending different paths.

Interesting

Right thought, right action, right words. This is Zoroastrianism, did you know that?

❤️

Daniel your laughter is so natural and sincere i really like it haha :)

Dhammarato seems to speak at times as if doing what is "right" is a simple choice seemingly forgetting the process of learning how to disable the autopilot that keeps doing"wrong"

If danial was a martial arts teacher he would definately be teaching death punches wearing a gi claiming a red belt, love the debate thou

I'd appreciate a clarification of terms here: By "magic" do you mean "Siddhis", in traditional terms?

The Buddha discouraged dwelling into siddhis as a practice. If it was a side effect of meditation, it’s to be enjoyed and let go. I experienced many of the phenomena of what these people called magic in the dharma. I didn’t dwell on it, left it where it was and moved on as my teacher instructed me. Also, what is the point of telling the public of your attainment other than to feed your ego? I can understand that telling it to a few close students as teaching tool to encourage them, but publicly declaring it only feeds the ego. It seemed to be pervasive in western practitioners who charges hourly rates or fees for retreat for their teachings.

Dhammarato makes me want to shave my head and be a monk! With his deep wise drawl!

In the suttras buddha advises his disciples to gain super powers but monks these days say don't do it or worry about them. I want all aspects of the dharma powers and all

Including that looking at breath Buddha taught 84 thousand techniques of keeping inner-self. Every one must know and adopt at least 12 of them for better result.

Magic can be a tool for letting go of that which limits you and opening to that which you are not yet able to perceive.

Which discussion or talk was Dharmmarato referring to in his opening statement when he said he commended Daniel for taking well and that he wouldn't want to be in his shoes?

Daniel ingram and shinzen young next!!!

Powers are not rare at all. A true muggle is the thing that doesn't exist.

is the video slowed down ? it seems everyone's voices are extra low 🤔

Dhammarato seems to think that there is no fundamental inequality and injustice toward women in buddhist monastic culture (talk about magical thinking). And if there is, that's ok because he's "just there to enjoy the show". Give me a break. I'm sure he figured something out, but it doesn't look like much. A true story from a conference on western buddhism: "An attractive German laywoman, Sylvia Wetzel, took the floor. With a small but discernible gulp she invited His Holiness the Dalai Lama and the assembled throng of luminaries to join her in visualization. 'Please imagine that you are a male coming to a Buddhist center. You see the painting of this beautiful Tara surrounded by sixteen female arhats and you have the possibility to see too Her Holiness the fourteenth Dalai Lama who, in all of her fourteen incarnations, has always chosen a female rebirth,' she began. 'You are surrounded by very high female rinpoches -- beautiful, strong, educated women. Then you see the Bhikshunis coming in, self-confident, outspoken. Then you see the monks coming in behind them -- very shy and timid. You hear about the lineage of lamas of the tradition, who are all female, down to the female Tara in the painting.' 'Remember you are male,' she reminded them, 'and you approach a lama, feeling a little bit insecure and a little bit irritated, and ask "Why are there all these female symbols, female Buddhas?" And she replies, "Don't worry. Men and women are equal. Well, almost. We do have some scriptures which say that a male rebirth is inferior, but isn't this the case? Men do have a more difficult time when all the leaders, spiritually, philosophically and politically are women." 'And then the male student, who is very sincere, goes to another lama, a Mahayanist from the Higher Vehicle School, and says, "I am a man, how can I identify with all these female icons?" And she replies, "You just meditate on Shunyata (Emptiness). In Shunyata no man, no woman, no body, nothing. No problem!" 'So you go to a tantric teacher and say, "All these women and I am a man. I don't know how to relate." And she says, "How wonderful you are, beautiful Daka, you are so useful to us practitioners helping us to raise our kundalini energy. How blessed you are to be a male, to benefit female practitioners on their path to enlightenment." It was outrageous but delivered in such a charming way that everyone, including the Dalai Lama, laughed. 'Now you have given me another angle on the matter,' he said. In effect Sylvia Wetzel had voiced what millions of women down the centuries had felt. In spite of the mirth, the dam holding back more than 2,500 years of spiritual sexism and pent-up female resentment was beginning to burst. Others began to join in. A leading Buddhist teacher and author, American nun Thubten Chodron, told how the subtle prejudice she had met within institutions had undermined her confidence to the point that it was a serious hindrance on the path. 'Even if our pain was acknowledged it would make us feel better,' she declared. Sympathetic male teachers spoke up. 'This is a wonderful challenge for the male -- to see it and accept it,' said a Zen master. American Tibetan Buddhist monk Thubten Pende gave his views: "When I translated the texts concerning the ordination ceremony I got such a shock. It said that even the most senior nun had to sit behind the most novice monk because, although her ordination was superior, the basis of that ordination, her body, was inferior. I thought, "There it is." I'd heard about this belief but I'd never found evidence of it. I had to recite this text at the ceremony. I was embarrassed to say it and ashamed of the institution I was representing. I wondered, "Why doesn't she get up and leave?" I would.' The English Theravadan monk Ven Ahjan Amaso also spoke up: 'Seeing the nuns not receiving the respect given to the monks is very painful. It is like having a spear in your heart,' he said. Then it was Tendzin Palmo's turn, and with all her natural eloquence she told her tale: "When I first came to India I lived in a monastery with 100 monks. I was the only nun,' she said, and paused for several seconds for her words to sink in. 'I think that is why I eventually went to live by myself in a cave.' Everyone got the point. 'The monks were kind, and I had no problems of sexual harassment or troubles of that sort, but of course I was unfortunately within a female form. They actually told me they prayed that in my next life I would have the good fortune to be reborn as a male so that I could join in all the monastery's activities. In the meantime, they said, they didn't hold it too much against me that I had this inferior rebirth in the female form. It wasn't too much my fault.' Seizing her chance, she went on to fire her biggest salvo. An expose on the situation of the Western Sangha, particularly the nuns whom she had befriended in Italy. 'The lamas ordain people and then they are thrown out into the world with no training, preparation, encouragement, support or guidance-and they're expected to keep their vows, do their practice and run dharma centers. This is very hard and I'm surprised that so many of the Western Monastics stay as long as they do. I'm not surprised when they disrobe. They start with so much enthusiasm, with so much pure faith and devotion and gradually their inspiration decreases. They get discouraged and disillusioned and there is no one who helps them. This is true, Your Holiness. It's a very hard situation and it has never happened in the history of Buddhism before. 'In the past the Sangha was firmly established, nurtured and cared for. In the West this is not happening. I truly don't know why. There are a few monasteries, mostly in the Theravada tradition, which are doing well, but for the nuns what is there? There is hardly anything quite frankly. But to end on a higher note, I pray that this life of purity and renunciation which is so rare and precious in the world, that this jewel of the Sangha may not be thrown down into the mud of our indifference and contempt.' It was an impassioned, formidable cry from the heart. When she had finished a great hush fell over the gathering. No one was laughing now. As for Tenzin Gyatso, (the Dalai Lama), the Great Ocean of Wisdom, regarded by his people as an emanation of Chenrezig, the Buddha of Compassion, he was sitting there, head in his hands, silently weeping. After several minutes he looked up, wiped his eyes and said softly, 'You are quite brave'."

I’d love to see a conversation between Daniel Ingram and Ajahn Thanissaro about Noble path and fruit attainments. Watch out Daniel....

MN 117 explicitly says the mundane right practises are not factors of the Noble Path. The Noble Path has no prerequisite of magic. .

Bring David Blaine on next!

wish I knew so much about buddhism as you do 🤟

your room looks like viking ship haha

Dhammarato- for as much as you talk about letting go, you hold onto views stubbornly. I hear Daniel addressing your points over and over again and you don't budge on your wrong view.

there is magic in the dharma for sure!

Dhammarato mistakes those who do techniques wrong and dont learn to do them well, for the technique and belief being the problem. There are many examples of people who have skill that would disagree with what Dhammarato is saying, hence why i wish that if hes not going to do the practices that lead to things, its better not to have an opinion on it or be so stubborn. I feel like the majority of this was Daniel repeating the same thing in different ways, because Dhammarato just isn't getting it. Still, i appreciate what he has to offer and still makes solid points. I just wish he were more open minded to the possibilities. No disrespect to him or anyone.

...I don't think it's too uncommon for "the magic" to be triggered by "a trick," kind of like sucking on the tube when syphoning gas, and then it naturally flows after the "trick."

Nobel, not Nobel... It's labels Words Empty words

Dhammarato, sounds to me, to be professing that world hunger doesn't exist because he ate today. His reasoning is rigidly attached to believing that the path unfolds for everyone the same way. It's like he can't hear what Daniel Ingram is actually saying.

I'm only about 39 minutes in, but pretty disappointed by Dhammarato. From this and other videos, he seems to just repeat the same points over and over and doesn't really listen to the people he's talking to or respond to the points they are making. I've noticed this pattern in some people - they just have a set of opinions and after a while of talking to them you realise that you can't have a normal conversation where you go back and forth and listen to each other. You just have to let them say their opinions and leave it at that.

50:08 aw that's not true

This pairing is meaningfully asymmetrical I’m my opinion. Dhammarato does not seem to understand what Daniel is saying. He emphasizes more than once their equality as teachers while simultaneously demoting Daniel’s perspective (which is dynamic, wholehearted, thoughtful and immanent) as being the “ordinary” level of dharma. Quite a disappointment to be honest. The teaching here seems to be the wholesome quality of Daniel’s responses to not only not being met in his argument but being subtly disparaged

I'm Daniel Lawton, an old student of Carols Castaneda. We do the same type of magic as Ingram, by forcing off our internal dialogue, which is very similar to meditation. It's well known in our little community that there's only Ingram, Shinzen, and our group, doing real magic these days. And you will ALWAYS be attacked for it. That's because the rest of the communities are pretending, and don't like that to become obvious. By the way, this path leads to changing worlds, breaking the laws of physics, and other amazing things you wouldn't believe. We have multiple people in our group doing those things now. Ingram is a "comrade". We watch videos about him anytime someone finds a new one.

This was painful. Dhammarato doesn't seem to know how to have a conversation.

Dhammarato is stuck on the absolute level, doesn't listen or try to understand Daniel and just repeats the same thing. This is a very dogmatic paternal approach, in which all people are considered small and stupid children, unable to understand anything. Of course, it is very easy to brush off and say that these are all questions from the mind from the relative level, but when you recognize your true nature, the boundary between the relative and the absolute disappears. A coin always has two sides. This is also indicated by the Taoist Yin and Yang symbol and the Tibetan Yab-Yum symbol. The absolute transcends and includes the relative, rather than surpassing and denying it. It is impossible to separate rays from the sun, waves from the ocean, heat from fire or moisture from water. "if you cannot weep with a person who is crying, there is no kensho" Yamada Koun Magic and the ability to see subtle plans are the same natural human abilities as running, jumping or singing. If a person cannot possess these abilities without attachment, these are his personal problems and this is not a reason to devalue them. I never aspired to any supernatural abilities, but I encountered visions of the subtle plane spontaneously during contemplation. Believe me, this experience can frighten and disorient, and there is very little adequate information that can explain what is happening, or it is deliberately hidden and released bit by bit. I am very glad that there are people like Daniel who are not afraid to raise such issues and inform people. Bravo Daniel, you are doing exactly what our world needs right now. And thank you Viking, for your podcasts and your masterful questions that you ask the participants in the conversation. With your questions you literally voice my thoughts, this is exactly what I would like to ask.

A complete novice to deeper dharma etc it strikes me that the paradox is not repressing anger that is apparent saintly-ness and then projecting it out onto others At some stage not being angry is seen as a criteria to me this IS very suspect ! These kind of people i call false or pseudo enlightened , whereas Nisagadata occasionally did become angry , Jesus obvioulsy did , yes it is transformation of this energy ultimately BUT nobody never becomes angry this is aa ridiculous statement ! For me i seems a realistic goal is control and then transformation NOT "neurotic" denial BUT who am I to argue